even the quran itself tells you the israelites are Gods chosen ppl ,so that cuts ur whole damn Quran and rips it in shreds!

@Lepasharon: Please could you quote the verse from Quran that says the israelis are Gods? thanks. Yah kno.

i am laughing at aletheia.

New World Translation - John 1:1c - "and the Word was a god."

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses' "New World Translation" Bible and its rendering of John 1:1, it may interest you to know that, in support and explanation of their wording of this verse (especially within the third clause with "a god", there is soon to be published a 19+ year study (as of 10/2011), a thoroughly researched reference work - an historical analysis & exhaustive annotated bibliography - it will be entitled, "What About John 1:1?"

To learn more of its design and expected release date, you are invited to visit:

http://www.goodcompanionbooks.com

When finally published, apart from discussing many of the other topics and scriptures often related to the man-made Trinity doctrine, you will also discover that we have collected information on about 430+ scholarly reference works (mostly Trinitarian) which, throughout the centuries, had opted to say something other than, "and the Word was God," and that, included among them are over 120 which had chosen to use "a god" within the third clause of their renderings.

As you might expect, we are very excited at the opportunity to share our findings with others.

Agape, JohnOneOne.

^^^^^^^^^^ I didn't see the word "Gods" in the verse that you quoted.

Maybe you need to put on some real flesh, woman. That way, you can have the energy to read, so that you know that there is no verse in the Quran anyone, any group is called God along with Allah, The Only God.

Yah know, lepasharon.

@Lepasharon; how "prefer you" becomes "you are Gods" is a head scratch-er.

mohamedans are perpetually confused. One minute the bible is corrupt and unreliable . . . the next it predicts the rise of islam?

Daniel 2:44, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

This verse says "in the days of these kings" . . . well which kings? Verse 41 and 42 gives us a clear idea - 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

note the specific reference to the "toes" . . . since there are 10 toes on both feet, we are quite sure that this refers to 10 kings. We also know that these kings rose out of the ashes of the 4th empire (the roman empire). The only nations that rose out of the Roman empire remain the nations that presently comprise the European Union today (English empire, French/Franks, Visigoths/Spanish, Germans, Portuguese e.t.c.). Note verse 40 says the 4th kingdom would be as strong as iron and the 10 toes also contain iron! i.e. the 10 toes are remnants of the 4th kingdom! Please see more description of these 10 toes in revelation 17:12 (Rev 17 also gives a more detailed information on these 5 kingdoms including the earlier Egyptian and Assyrian empires).

Now another islamic scholar describing islam being the 5th kingdom had this to say - The identity of this final empire is of particular importance since God will establish His Kingdom during the course of it. Any impartial judge who will compare maps 23-25 is forced to admit that the Islamic Empire follows the Roman Empire in Middle Eastern history. It swallowed up much of the remaining Roman territory and took control of the Holy Land. Islam made Jerusalem its third holiest city, al-Quds, "the Holy." Later, Turks who had lived in the Muslim world for centuries conquered the last vestige of the Roman Empire, Constantinople, the former capital (map 30) and renamed it Istanbul, City of Islam.

While the author is patially correct that the "islamic empire" (there was no such thing by the way) followed the Roman empire . . . it would make nonsense of verse 44 which is clear that this 5th kingdom would only be set up in the days of the 10 kings (toes of iron amd miry clay).

Secondly, note how verse 44 says - but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms - has the islamic empire broken the EU in pieces and consumed the 10 toes? Well the EU still stands today. So was allah lying in verse 44? Verse 45 also says this - Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that[b] it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold[/b]; - the "islamic empire" has not even broken the 10 toes in pieces . . . how does it claim to have broken the brass, clay, silver and Gold?

Go back to verse 35 - Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

When will islam "fill the whole earth"?

Rather this 5th kingdom is ACTUALLY a future the kingdom of CHRIST and we have evidence of this in the bible. Forasmuch as thou sawest that[b] the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands[/b], and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold;

This STONE refered to here was cut out of the mountain without hands . . . quite an important detail when you consider this - 2 corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

JohnOneOne:

New World Translation - John 1:1c - "and the Word was a god."

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses' "New World Translation" Bible and its rendering of John 1:1, it may interest you to know that, in support and explanation of their wording of this verse (especially within the third clause with "a god", there is soon to be published a 19+ year study (as of 10/2011), a thoroughly researched reference work - an historical analysis & exhaustive annotated bibliography - it will be entitled, "What About John 1:1?"

To learn more of its design and expected release date, you are invited to visit:

http://www.goodcompanionbooks.com

When finally published, apart from discussing many of the other topics and scriptures often related to the man-made Trinity doctrine, you will also discover that we have collected information on about 430+ scholarly reference works (mostly Trinitarian) which, throughout the centuries, had opted to say something other than, "and the Word was God," and that, included among them are over 120 which had chosen to use "a god" within the third clause of their renderings.

As you might expect, we are very excited at the opportunity to share our findings with others.

Agape, JohnOneOne.

Please refer to the thread below where the question of John 1:1 and John 1:18 have been treated in details based on the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses (just to further note,whether it is trinity or your Jehovah's Witness concept of "Binity",polytheism is wrong accroding to other bible verses.also,the main contention here is not about wording but about doctrine.the issue is,is Jesus divine (a divine being) or not?).please see below:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-4050.288.html#msg8778883

davidylan:

mohamedans are perpetually confused. One minute the bible is corrupt and unreliable . . . the next it predicts the rise of islam?

at least show some courtesy by not repeating the same thing someone else posted and was replied to in this very thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-772940.0.html#msg9264044

Daniel 2:44, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

This verse says "in the days of these kings" . . . well which kings? Verse 41 and 42 gives us a clear idea - 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

note the specific reference to the "toes" . . . since there are 10 toes on both feet, we are quite sure that this refers to 10 kings. We also know that these kings rose out of the ashes of the 4th empire (the roman empire). The only nations that rose out of the Roman empire remain the nations that presently comprise the European Union today (English empire, French/Franks, Visigoths/Spanish, Germans, Portuguese e.t.c.). Note verse 40 says the 4th kingdom would be as strong as iron and the 10 toes also contain iron! i.e. the 10 toes are remnants of the 4th kingdom! Please see more description of these 10 toes in revelation 17:12 (Rev 17 also gives a more detailed information on these 5 kingdoms including the earlier Egyptian and Assyrian empires).

why would you interprete verse 44 before verses 41 and 42 

verses 41 and 42 speaks of the 4th which shall be divided.while verse 44 speaks of the fifth kingdom.there is sequence in the prophecy which you want to rubbish.how biblical of you!!!

besides,even though the remnants of the fourth kingdom remain,another book in Daniel (Daniel Chapter 7) tells us how the fifth kingdom will eventually triumph over the remnants.

Now another islamic scholar describing islam being the 5th kingdom had this to say - The identity of this final empire is of particular importance since God will establish His Kingdom during the course of it. Any impartial judge who will compare maps 23-25 is forced to admit that the Islamic Empire follows the Roman Empire in Middle Eastern history. It swallowed up much of the remaining Roman territory and took control of the Holy Land. Islam made Jerusalem its third holiest city, al-Quds, "the Holy." Later, Turks who had lived in the Muslim world for centuries conquered the last vestige of the Roman Empire, Constantinople, the former capital (map 30) and renamed it Istanbul, City of Islam.

While the author is patially correct that the "islamic empire" (there was no such thing by the way) followed the Roman empire . . . it would make nonsense of verse 44 which is clear that this 5th kingdom would only be set up in the days of the 10 kings (toes of iron amd miry clay).

how you interpreted "in the days of those kings" to mean the "kings" of the remnants of the fourth kingdom and not the kings of the previous kingdoms is ridiculous and also sad because its foolishness.

the only "kings" Daniel 2 speaks of are the kings of the previous four kingdoms.Daniel 2 does not tell us that those remnants would be kingdoms and neither does it mention any "kings" relating to them.infact,even if we are to go by reality presently,the remnants of the roman empire with the exception of Spain are all republics.Italy which contains Rome,the seat of the Empire is also a republic.so really,one wonders where you are going to buy 10 kings for the remnants of the fourth kingdom,when the remnants which exist today do not have a total of 10 kings and are infact not kingdoms.

of important note is the fact that when the fifth kingdom (Islam) came to be,both persia and the romans were ruled by kings and the sequence by which the fifth came about perfectly fits the prophecy.any attempt to deny Islam this right,will render Daniel 2 void and make it a failed or false prophecy.

Secondly, note how verse 44 says - but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms - has the islamic empire broken the EU in pieces and consumed the 10 toes? Well the EU still stands today. So was allah lying in verse 44? Verse 45 also says this - Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that[b] it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold[/b]; - the "islamic empire" has not even broken the 10 toes in pieces . . . how does it claim to have broken the brass, clay, silver and Gold?

you are now desperately contradicting yourself.you accepted that whatever you interprete the 10 toes to be,those are REMNANTS of th fourth after the fifth breaks it and consumes it.infact 10

let me also ask you this:we saw how sequentially one kingdom replaced the other based on history and as the prophecy tells us starting with the first to the fourth.why do you want to turn a blind eye to the fact that the Muslim Army did as history accounts defeat the roman empire (the 4th kingdom) and took over both Jerusalem and Constantinopole among other cities? that is consumption! Islam consumed the fourth kingdom.why pretend that never happen? you want to give the 5th kingdom an interpretation outside the prophecy of Daniel 2.

infact,Daniel 2 also does not speak of "10 toes" to mean "10 kings/nations" and gives that no significance.the toes are only mentioned to indicate the division of the fourth kingdom and how one part would be strong while the other fragile.what christians usually interprete as "10 kings/nations" to be "remnants of the fourth kingdom" refers to the 10 "horns" mentioned in Daniel 7 which clearly shows that there shall be a remnant of the fourth kingdom that would be defeated at a latter date by the victorious 5th kingdom (Islam).

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall [size=14pt]break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms,[/size] and it shall stand for ever.


why also take for granted that the fourth kingdom which is the roman empire was divided into two before it vanished?

Go back to verse 35 - Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

When will islam "fill the whole earth"?

in so many places in the bible,when you read such a phrase as "the whole earth" or "all over the earth",that refered to the then existing civilizations.take for example in verse number 39 when Greece,the third kingdom, is said to "rule over the whole earth".that does not mean the greeks reached south america!

39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

as for when Islam will fill the whole earth,that question is answered in Daniel Chapter 7.in Daniel 2,we are only told how the fifth kingdom will come into being and how it will consume the previous kingdoms.in Daniel 7,we are told of how the fifth kingdom will triump completely.in Daniel 7,the consumption of the previous kingdoms and the victory would be decisive and complete.

Rather this 5th kingdom is ACTUALLY a future the kingdom of CHRIST and we have evidence of this in the bible. Forasmuch as thou sawest that[b] the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands[/b], and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold;

This STONE refered to here was cut out of the mountain without hands . . . quite an important detail when you consider this - 2 corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

first let me say that even though you got no evidence and your explanations are empty of logic and commnon sense,you will not accept the plain truth and you will use a thousand and one words to conceal the truth and confuse yourself in giving a false impression.

i will just remind you with the below thread of how blind your imaginations are and on what blindness they are based on.see also how many times Paul's imaginations got exposed as false prophecies:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-550247.0.html

LagosShia:

at least show some courtesy by not repeating the same thing someone else posted and was replied to in this very thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-772940.0.html#msg9264044

So i went back to read your argument . . . first of all your claims on the 4 types of verses in the bible as evidence of its corruption makes no sense. Would you then indicate that the satanic verses that were included before being later expunged from the quran is evidence it is corrupt?

Secondly you said - this is even more the case,because we muslims also believe in Jesus (as) and other biblical prophets (as).therefore using the bible to bring out verses that support islam and where those previous prophets (as) proved that they were muslims is important to demonstrate our conncetion and truthfulness and also to convince christians that those prophets and men of God in the bible were like us muslims and not like you christians,who in all your 1001 sects and denomination are polytheists and idolators.

This is a very senseless argument that i wonder you are able to sleep at night reading this.

1. if you believe this islamic jesus and the prophets were sent by allah, why did allah forget to include their messages IN THE QURAN? why for example is the muslim constantly having to scramble for a bible to justify the sayings of Jesus or prophet Isaiah?

2. If indeed the quran is complete, then why does the muslim have to "use the bible to bring verse that support islam"? should islam not be able to support ITSELF?

3. Why do you require the bible to prove that the prophets were muslims? Why doesnt the quran contain proof that ishmael or elijah were muslims for example? Is allah that forgetful?

LagosShia:

why would you interprete verse 44 before verses 41 and 42 

verses 41 and 42 speaks of the 4th which shall be divided.while verse 44 speaks of the fifth kingdom.there is sequence in the prophecy which you want to rubbish.how biblical of you!!!

besides,even though the remnants of the fourth kingdom remain,another book in Daniel (Daniel Chapter 7) tells us how the fifth kingdom will eventually triumph over the remnants.

brainless. Did you read the tail end of my post that said this - Rather this 5th kingdom is ACTUALLY a future the kingdom of CHRIST. Yes verse 41 and 42 speaks of the 4th kingdom (Roman empire) . . . so exactly what is your point?

How odd that allah's leaves such an important prophecy in the biblical books Daniel . . . did he forget to show Mohammad such an important prophecy that you dishonest demons now want to claim?

LagosShia:

how you interpreted "in the days of those kings" to mean the "kings" of the remnants of the fourth kingdom and not the kings of the previous kingdoms is ridiculous and also sad because its foolishness.

the only "kings" Daniel 2 speaks of are the kings of the previous four kingdoms.Daniel 2 does not tell us that those remnants would be kingdoms and neither does it mention any "kings" relating to them.infact,even if we are to go by reality presently,the remnants of the roman empire with the exception of Spain are all republics.Italy which contains Rome,the seat of the Empire is also a republic.so really,one wonders where you are going to buy 10 kings for the remnants of the fourth kingdom,when the remnants which exist today do not have a total of 10 kings and are infact not kingdoms.

of important note is the fact that when the fifth kingdom (Islam) came to be,both persia and the romans were ruled by kings and the sequence by which the fifth came about perfectly fits the prophecy.any attempt to deny Islam this right,will render Daniel 2 void and make it a failed or false prophecy.

Brainless again.

1. I suppose because Daniel kept refering to them as "kingdoms" you believe all those nations mentioned them must NEEDS be ruled by kings? In that case how can islam be the 5th kingdom? Is it a monolithic state like all the others and presently ruled by a king?

2. It is quite clear that the 4th kingdom (iron) gives rise to another mixed kingdom (iron mixed with clay) . . . the fact that the toes are 10 indicates that this mixed kingdom will contain at least 10 different smaller empires (europe which arose from the ashes of the Roman empire) . . . but was never as strong and as close as the original roman empire.

3. The desperate attempt to smuggle islam into this prophecy is quite laughable . . . why mohammad couldnt see what Daniel saw so effortlessly is beyond me. I guess allah must be quite inept.

4. When islam came the persian empire didnt exist!

LagosShia:

you are now desperately contradicting yourself.you accepted that whatever you interprete the 10 toes to be,those are REMNANTS of th fourth after the fifth breaks it and consumes it.infact 10

senseless. The 10 toes where ALREADY an unstable mix of iron and clay BEFORE the fifth kingdom struck the image.

LagosShia:

let me also ask you this:we saw how sequentially one kingdom replaced the other based on history and as the prophecy tells us starting with the first to the fourth.why do you want to turn a blind eye to the fact that the Muslim Army did as history accounts defeat the roman empire (the 4th kingdom) and took over both Jerusalem and Constantinopole among other cities? that is consumption! Islam consumed the fourth kingdom.why pretend that never happen? you want to give the 5th kingdom an interpretation outside the prophecy of Daniel 2.

again senseless . . . the Roman empire officially collapsed in 476 AD following the sacking of Rome by European Barbarians. Ottoman turks didnt capture the byzantine empire (eastern portion and least important part of the already crumbled roman empire) until 1453.

In that case should we now rewrite this prophecy to indicate the barbarians were the 5th kingdom as they were actually the people who captured Rome? The muslim tuks only captured parts of the byzantine empire so why write out the barbarians from being a part of the 5th kingdom?

LagosShia:

infact,Daniel 2 also does not speak of "10 toes" to mean "10 kings/nations" and gives that no significance.the toes are only mentioned to indicate the division of the fourth kingdom and how one part would be strong while the other fragile.what christians usually interprete as "10 kings/nations" to be "remnants of the fourth kingdom" refers to the 10 "horns" mentioned in Daniel 7 which clearly shows that there shall be a remnant of the fourth kingdom that would be defeated at a latter date by the victorious 5th kingdom (Islam).

Daniel 7 is a clearer explanation of the 10 toes in Daniel 2. Interesting that you require the bible to expound on an alleged islamic prophecy.

LagosShia:

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall [size=14pt]break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms,[/size] and it shall stand for ever.

why also take for granted that the fourth kingdom which is the roman empire was divided into two before it vanished?

Go read history . . . everyone depicts the collapse of the Roman empire as AD 476, when Barbarians sacked Rome.

The rest of the nonsense you typed should give you reason to pause and ask yourself . . . why did allah forget to indicate all these in his quran? Was he sleeping? Why arguing the coming of an islamic kingdom from the bible exclusively?

Why did allah rely on non-arab ottoman turks (no descendants of ishmael) to be the 5th kingdom?

davidylan:

So i went back to read your argument . . . first of all your claims on the 4 types of verses in the bible as evidence of its corruption makes no sense. Would you then indicate that the satanic verses that were included before being later expunged from the quran is evidence it is corrupt?

the so called "satanic verses" only exist in your imagination.you should have rightly posed that to a sunni because nothing as such is mentioned in shia compilations of hadiths.

besides,if you're bringing that up from no where as a way to "get back at me" shows your loser attitude.

the issue on satanic verses is boring.i'd provide you material from both shia and sunnis both of whom refute and deny the allegation to see for yourself:

Shia refutation-check question #43 in the below link:
http://www.al-islam.org/180_questions_vol2/

Sunni Refutation:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/sverses.html

i put forth the different sources of bible verses to clearly demonstrate to you that not everything in the bible is from God.

Secondly you said - this is even more the case,because we muslims also believe in Jesus (as) and other biblical prophets (as).therefore using the bible to bring out verses that support islam and where those previous prophets (as) proved that they were muslims is important to demonstrate our conncetion and truthfulness and also to convince christians that those prophets and men of God in the bible were like us muslims and not like you christians,who in all your 1001 sects and denomination are polytheists and idolators.

This is a very senseless argument that i wonder you are able to sleep at night reading this.

1. if you believe this islamic jesus and the prophets were sent by allah, why did allah forget to include their messages IN THE QURAN? why for example is the muslim constantly having to scramble for a bible to justify the sayings of Jesus or prophet Isaiah?

you are foolish.

use the same argument against yourself.

you christians do not only search the old testament to convince jews about christianity as muslims use the bible for christians,but you christians do include the old testament as part of your holy scripture and then go ahead to deny every act not suitable to your thinking and desire under the illogic of "old covenant".this ofcourse includes all the massacres and crimes committed by the israelites with direct command from the same God of both the new and old testaments.mind you,while you hold the "old testament" as "holy",the jews who own it do not honor your christian "new testament" as also "holy".so all the interpretations you give to the old testament to prove that Jesus is messiah,are not acceptable to jews.simply put,jews do not believe in Jesus even though you try to show them that Jesus (as) was prophesied in the old testament.so dont blame muslim for showing you where Muhammad (sa) is prophesied in your "holy book".

and to answer your senseless question directly,adding up older scriptures in a new revelation would render the new revelation meaningless and a copy-paste work.nontheless,those relevant laws revealed by God previously are still maintained in the Quran and new instructions also given.

2. If indeed the quran is complete, then why does the muslim have to "use the bible to bring verse that support islam"? should islam not be able to support ITSELF?

that is your mistake.

when the Muslim uses the bible,it is never done to "support" islam or the Quran.the Quran tells us that our Prophet (sa) and Islam are mentioned in older scriptures.all we simply do is to help you out since you're lost and incapable of even understandin your very own "holy" book!!!

3. Why do you require the bible to prove that the prophets were muslims? Why doesnt the quran contain proof that ishmael or elijah were muslims for example? Is allah that forgetful?

that is not hard at all to explain.if you need such "proof" from the Quran,i can simply tell you the Quran says so and we muslims believe that absolutely.

the problem here we are trying to solve is to help people like you who doubt and are in confusion.we use the bible to show you the portions in it that support islam.we are helping you and you got to be grateful.

brainless. Did you read the tail end of my post that said this -  Rather this 5th kingdom is ACTUALLY a future the kingdom of CHRIST. Yes verse 41 and 42 speaks of the 4th kingdom (Roman empire) . . . so exactly what is your point?

the point is,the fifth kingdom from all indications both in history texts and the prophecy itself has come with the advent of Islam and the defeat suffered by the fourth and also the third kingdom in the hands of the muslim army.

How odd that allah's leaves such an important prophecy in the biblical books Daniel . . . did he forget to show Mohammad such an important prophecy that you dishonest demons now want to claim?

he never needed that.you have it in your book,yet you spin and turn upside down to deny it.if Muhammad (sa) would have presented it,you would have shouted that he is copying.but the evidence itself is in your "holy book".

1. I suppose because Daniel kept refering to them as "kingdoms" you believe all those nations mentioned them must NEEDS be ruled by kings? In that case how can islam be the 5th kingdom? Is it a monolithic state like all the others and presently ruled by a king?

Islam can be refered to as a kingdom because the King of Islam and every Muslim is Almighty Allah.indeed,we do have a mighty king in Almighty God.

2. It is quite clear that the 4th kingdom (iron) gives rise to another mixed kingdom (iron mixed with clay) . . . the fact that the toes are 10 indicates that this mixed kingdom will contain at least 10 different smaller empires (europe which arose from the ashes of the Roman empire) . . . but was never as strong and as close as the original roman empire.

the fourth was divided into two thus the description of iron and clay.also,if you are to use the prophecy and the number "10" to present day europe,then why cant any other person also use the number "10" to refer to other kingdoms and empires that arose over the years before the present 10  you are selecting as candidates for the prophecy? 

3. The desperate attempt to smuggle islam into this prophecy is quite laughable . . . why mohammad couldnt see what Daniel saw so effortlessly is beyond me. I guess allah must be quite inept.

Muhammad (sa) saw it and that is why he declared his prophethood and his message as divine and everlasting.

[size=18pt]4. When islam came the persian empire didnt exist![/size]

after the above,i dont think i should reply to you again.

the persian empire did not only exist during the days of our Prophet (sa) but also did after him.it was under Umar,that Persia was conquered.our hadith texts inform us how the Prophet Muhammad (sa) invited the king of persia to islam.

see below for one of the significant victories of the muslims over the persians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_al-Q%C4%81disiyyah

senseless. The 10 toes where ALREADY an unstable mix of iron and clay BEFORE the fifth kingdom struck the image.

"already"?

i thought you said that the "10" refer to present day 10 european nations,which then did not exist? 

again senseless . . . the Roman empire officially collapsed in 476 AD following the sacking of Rome by European Barbarians. Ottoman turks didnt capture the byzantine empire (eastern portion and least important part of the already crumbled roman empire) until 1453.

In that case should we now rewrite this prophecy to indicate the barbarians were the 5th kingdom as they were actually the people who captured Rome? The muslim tuks only captured parts of the byzantine empire so why write out the barbarians from being a part of the 5th kingdom?

you already answered yourself.those were europeans themselves and they were more or less puttingg up a rebellion.they were not a kingdom nor a distinct people who replaced the fourth kingdom.infact,we can rightly say those were part of the fourth kingdom themselves.

Daniel 7 is a clearer explanation of the 10 toes in Daniel 2. Interesting that you require the bible to expound on an alleged islamic prophecy.

Daniel 7 refers to the rise of 10 horns from the fourth kingdom.

Daniel 2 describes the division of the foruth kingdom and its mixed strength and talked about "toes" without stating "10".

Go read history . . . everyone depicts the collapse of the Roman empire as AD 476, when Barbarians sacked Rome.

yeah, like you read history to declare that the persian empire did not exist when islam came.

The rest of the nonsense you typed should give you reason to pause and ask yourself . . . why did allah forget to indicate all these in his quran? Was he sleeping? Why arguing the coming of an islamic kingdom from the bible exclusively?

if He was sleeping,Islam would not have come and neither would Muhammad (sa) have been known and followed.think!

Why did allah rely on non-arab ottoman turks (no descendants of ishmael) to be the 5th kingdom?

simply because those turks are Muslim.Allah's kingdom is of believers and not a race.as the Quran tells us:"the best among you are the pious"!!!

regardless,the victory and triumph of Islam is from God and not the doing of men.God will see that his religion triumphs even though men detest that.that is what we are told in the Quran and that what we believe and look up to God alone.

LagosShia:

the so called "satanic verses" only exist in your imagination.you should have rightly posed that to a sunni because nothing as such is mentioned in shia compilations of hadiths.

besides,if you're bringing that up from no where as a way to "get back at me" shows your loser attitude.

the issue on satanic verses is boring.i'd provide you material from both shia and sunnis both of whom refute and deny the allegation to see for yourself:

Shia refutation-check question #43 in the below link:
http://www.al-islam.org/180_questions_vol2/

Sunni Refutation:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/sverses.html

i put forth the different sources of bible verses to clearly demonstrate to you that not everything in the bible is from God.

the usual islamic dance around the truth.

LagosShia:

you are foolish.

use the same argument against yourself.

you christians do not only search the old testament to convince jews about christianity as muslims use the bible for christians,but you christians do include the old testament as part of your holy scripture and then go ahead to deny every act not suitable to your thinking and desire under the illogic of "old covenant".this ofcourse includes all the massacres and crimes committed by the israelites with direct command from the same God of both the new and old testaments.mind you,while you hold the "old testament" as "holy",the jews who own it do not honor your christian "new testament" as also "holy".so all the interpretations you give to the old testament to prove that Jesus is messiah,are not acceptable to jews.simply put,jews do not believe in Jesus even though you try to show them that Jesus (as) was prophesied in the old testament.so dont blame muslim for showing you where Muhammad (sa) is prophesied in your "holy book".

that's absolutely untrue. maybe you need to stop lying . . . i wonder how many christians here are busy opening threads to convince jews about christianity . . . muslims on the other hand spend so much time bleating about allah's alleged prophecies that dont exist anywhere in the quran. I wonder why allah wasted so much time sending prophecies through a jew and through a medium his people are doing anything to destroy. If islam had its way the bible would long have been destroyed . . . how would you then be arguing on Daniel 2?

LagosShia:

and to answer your senseless question directly,adding up older scriptures in a new revelation would render the new revelation meaningless and a copy-paste work.nontheless,those relevant laws revealed by God previously are still maintained in the Quran and new instructions also given.

The christian scriptures have nothing to do with allah. Why are there no comparable DISTINCT prophecies in the quran?

LagosShia:

that is your mistake.

[size=13pt]when the Muslim uses the bible,it is never done to "support" islam or the Quran[/size].the Quran tells us that our Prophet (sa) and Islam are mentioned in older scriptures.all we simply do is to help you out since you're lost and incapable of even understandin your very own "holy" book!!!

Did you forget this statement you made October 2? - firstly when the muslim presents those verses,he does so not to convince fellow muslims that islam is the truth.[size=13pt]the muslim uses the bible to present islam[/size] as a kind gesture to our christian brothers.christians see the bible as the "word of God" and they believe in the bible.so it would be unreasonable for muslims to use the Quran to convince christians on particular issues.christians believe in the bible,so for them it is authoritative.

this is even more the case,because we muslims also believe in Jesus (as) and other biblical prophets (as).[size=13pt]therefore using the bible to bring out verses that support islam and where those previous prophets (as) proved that they were muslims[/size] is important to demonstrate our conncetion and truthfulness and also to convince christians that those prophets and men of God in the bible were like us muslims and not like you christians,who in all your 1001 sects and denomination are polytheists and idolators.

You lose credibility with each pathetic attempt to use the bible to support islam then lying so shamelessly about it.

LagosShia:

that is not hard at all to explain.if you need such "proof" from the Quran,i can simply tell you the Quran says so and we muslims believe that absolutely.

the problem here we are trying to solve is to help people like you who doubt and are in confusion.we use the bible to show you the portions in it that support islam.we are helping you and you got to be grateful.

Daft . . . weren't you just arguing above that you dont use the bible to support islam? Are you dyslexic or something?

LagosShia:

the point is,the fifth kingdom from all indications both in history texts and the prophecy itself has come with the advent of Islam and [size=13pt]the defeat suffered by the fourth and also the third kingdom in the hands of the muslim army.[/size]

makes no sense for the following reasons:

1. It is quite clear from the prophecy in Daniel 2 that each empire came AFTER each other . . . infact Daniel 2 skips 2 prior empires - the egyptian and assyrian empires (both Daniel 7 and revelations clearly indicate there were 7 kingdoms in total though Daniel 2's image ignores the first 2 that occurred much much earlier).

2. Your claim that islam defeated the fourth and third kingdoms is clearly false and symptomatic of the clueless, desperate muslim. The western Roman empire (Rome itself) was sacked by the european barbarians in 476AD and are CORRECTLY identified as the group that officially ended the roman empire -  please read history before you start bleating about "historical texts".

Secondly, the third and fourth kingdoms did NOT exist side by side at the same time . . .  go through it one by one - Nebuchadnezzar was the first empire (babylonian), he was overthrown by the bosom of silver (medo-persian empire), this was later succeeded by the Grecian empire (Alexander the great) followed by the Roman empire.

3. The third empire was the Grecian empire of Alexander the great, when did islam defeat it?

So how on earth did islam defeat both third and fourth empires? Did islam defeat alexander the great?

Read verse 39, it is quite clear - 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

a. note the "after thee shall arise" . . . 2 empires did not exist at the same time.

b. the third empire bore rule OVER ALL THE EARTH (this was true of the Grecian empire) so how could it have co-existed with the Roman empire that also ruled over all the earth?

Daft muslim struggling too hard to smuggle islam into the bible he wants to destroy.

LagosShia:

he never needed that.you have it in your book,yet you spin and turn upside down to deny it.if Muhammad (sa) would have presented it,you would have shouted that he is copying.but the evidence itself is in your "holy book".

The proof of Jehovah Jireh's prophecy is in Daniel 2, why is allah trying to steal it? why cant he prophesy by himself?

LagosShia:

Islam can be refered to as a kingdom because the King of Islam and every Muslim is Almighty Allah.indeed,we do have a mighty king in Almighty God.

huh? What about the other 4 kingdoms . . . they had some pixie in the sky as their "mighty king" too?

LagosShia:

the fourth was divided into two thus the description of iron and clay.also,if you are to use the prophecy and the number "10" to present day europe,then why cant any other person also use the number "10" to refer to other kingdoms and empires that arose over the years before the present 10  you are selecting as candidates for the prophecy? 

Daft.
1. The number 10 is VERY important based on the clear reference to the toes of iron and clay.

2. We know the number 10 refers to the Europeans because the iron+clay kingdom refers to a divided roman empire. The original roman empire was defeated by european barbarians (the french, germans, visigoths, saxons e.t.c.). Read it up, its just simple history.

LagosShia:

Muhammad (sa) saw it and that is why he declared his prophethood and his message as divine and everlasting.

what a joke. If he saw it why didnt he tell you or write it down in your quran? Why does he have you his slaves ferreting shamelessly in the bible?

LagosShia:

after the above,i dont think i should reply to you again.

the persian empire did not only exist during the days of our Prophet (sa) but also did after him.it was under Umar,that Persia was conquered.our hadith texts inform us how the Prophet Muhammad (sa) invited the king of persia to islam.

yeah you shouldnt really respond anymore, you just keep digging yourself deeper.

First of all i'm sure you are agreed that the THIRD kingdom was the Grecian empire. We also know that the Medo-Persian empire was the SECOND EMPIRE that came AFTER the defeat of nebuchadnezarr. Let me quote the relevant verses -

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

This prophecy was fulfilled in Daniel 5:28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

How then can islam claim to have defeated the Persian empire when it had long been supplanted by the third kingdom (the Grecians)? I guess you dont understand that the key similarities between all these empires was that at the time of their reign, they were the DOMINANT world power! So it is impossible for the second empire (persians) to have existed AFTER the Grecian empire had been supplanted by the Romans just in time for islam to come in and smuggle itself into Daniel 2!

So yes islam defeated the persians at some point . . . long long after the Medo-Persian empire of Daniel 2 had ceased to exist.

LagosShia:

"already"?

i thought you said that the "10" refer to present day 10 european nations,which then did not exist? 

Daft again. the barbarians (a mix of iron and clay) who sacked Rome and divided the western roman empire (the iron empire) included the visigoths (Spain), Franks (france), alamanni (germans), Saxons (english nation) e.t.c. so yeah the europeans who make up those 10 toes did exist then . . . in fact they were responsible for the fall and division of Rome in AD 476.

Better to keep quiet when you are ignorant.

LagosShia:

you already answered yourself.those were europeans themselves and they were more or less puttingg up a rebellion.they were not a kingdom nor a distinct people who replaced the fourth kingdom.infact,we can rightly say those were part of the fourth kingdom themselves.

Yes the 10 toes were not kingdoms .  ,  they were smaller tribes within the western roman empire. That is the explanation for the mixing of iron and clay. The iron doesnt completely go away, it is simply weakened and broken up by smaller tribes.

To say the barbarians were not a "distinct people" is laughably stup[i]i[/i]d. I suppose you think visigoths (spanish-speaking people) are not distinct from the alamanni (germans)? I know you must lie for allah but please be informed first.

LagosShia:

Daniel 7 refers to the rise of 10 horns from the fourth kingdom.

Daniel 2 describes the division of the foruth kingdom and its mixed strength and talked about "toes" without stating "10".

Read it for me from the quran first you dud.

LagosShia:

yeah, like you read history to declare that the persian empire did not exist when islam came.

It didnt id[i]i[/i]ot. What about the third empire (grecian)? Did islam forget to destroy those ones too since the second empire (Persians) could not have come AFTER the third empire.

LagosShia:

regardless,the victory and triumph of Islam is from God and not the doing of men.God will see that his religion triumphs even though men detest that.that is what we are told in the Quran and that what we believe and look up to God alone.

if that is the case then the islamic god must be a whimpy pathetic fellow. His people are just cannon fodder for jewish, american and russian weapons of mass destruction. too bad.

davidylan:

the usual islamic dance around the truth.

you mean to say your so called "truth".

well,muslims do not dance.dancing is better done in churches.

that's absolutely untrue. maybe you need to stop lying . . . i wonder how many christians here are busy opening threads to convince jews about christianity . . . muslims on the other hand spend so much time bleating about allah's alleged prophecies that dont exist anywhere in the quran. I wonder why allah wasted so much time sending prophecies through a jew and through a medium his people are doing anything to destroy. If islam had its way the bible would long have been destroyed . . . how would you then be arguing on Daniel 2?

The christian scriptures have nothing to do with allah. Why are there no comparable DISTINCT prophecies in the quran?


Did you forget this statement you made October 2? - firstly when the muslim presents those verses,he does so not to convince fellow muslims that islam is the truth.[size=13pt]the muslim uses the bible to present islam[/size] as a kind gesture to our christian brothers.christians see the bible as the "word of God" and they believe in the bible.so it would be unreasonable for muslims to use the Quran to convince christians on particular issues.christians believe in the bible,so for them it is authoritative.

this is even more the case,because we muslims also believe in Jesus (as) and other biblical prophets (as).[size=13pt]therefore using the bible to bring out verses that support islam and where those previous prophets (as) proved that they were muslims[/size] is important to demonstrate our conncetion and truthfulness and also to convince christians that those prophets and men of God in the bible were like us muslims and not like you christians,who in all your 1001 sects and denomination are polytheists and idolators.

You lose credibility with each pathetic attempt to use the bible to support islam then lying so shamelessly about it.

Daft . . . weren't you just arguing above that you dont use the bible to support islam? Are you dyslexic or something?

makes no sense for the following reasons:

1. It is quite clear from the prophecy in Daniel 2 that each empire came AFTER each other . . . infact Daniel 2 skips 2 prior empires - the egyptian and assyrian empires (both Daniel 7 and revelations clearly indicate there were 7 kingdoms in total though Daniel 2's image ignores the first 2 that occurred much much earlier).

2. Your claim that islam defeated the fourth and third kingdoms is clearly false and symptomatic of the clueless, desperate muslim. The western Roman empire (Rome itself) was sacked by the european barbarians in 476AD and are CORRECTLY identified as the group that officially ended the roman empire -  please read history before you start bleating about "historical texts".

Secondly, the third and fourth kingdoms did NOT exist side by side at the same time . . .  go through it one by one - Nebuchadnezzar was the first empire (babylonian), he was overthrown by the bosom of silver (medo-persian empire), this was later succeeded by the Grecian empire (Alexander the great) followed by the Roman empire.

3. The third empire was the Grecian empire of Alexander the great, when did islam defeat it?

So how on earth did islam defeat both third and fourth empires? Did islam defeat alexander the great?

Read verse 39, it is quite clear - 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

a. note the "after thee shall arise" . . . 2 empires did not exist at the same time.

b. the third empire bore rule OVER ALL THE EARTH (this was true of the Grecian empire) so how could it have co-existed with the Roman empire that also ruled over all the earth?

Daft muslim struggling too hard to smuggle islam into the bible he wants to destroy.

The proof of Jehovah Jireh's prophecy is in Daniel 2, why is allah trying to steal it? why cant he prophesy by himself?

huh? What about the other 4 kingdoms . . . they had some pixie in the sky as their "mighty king" too?

Daft.
1. The number 10 is VERY important based on the clear reference to the toes of iron and clay.

2. We know the number 10 refers to the Europeans because the iron+clay kingdom refers to a divided roman empire. The original roman empire was defeated by european barbarians (the french, germans, visigoths, saxons e.t.c.). Read it up, its just simple history.

what a joke. If he saw it why didnt he tell you or write it down in your quran? Why does he have you his slaves ferreting shamelessly in the bible?

yeah you shouldnt really respond anymore, you just keep digging yourself deeper.

First of all i'm sure you are agreed that the THIRD kingdom was the Grecian empire. We also know that the Medo-Persian empire was the SECOND EMPIRE that came AFTER the defeat of nebuchadnezarr. Let me quote the relevant verses -

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

This prophecy was fulfilled in Daniel 5:28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

How then can islam claim to have defeated the Persian empire when it had long been supplanted by the third kingdom (the Grecians)? I guess you dont understand that the key similarities between all these empires was that at the time of their reign, they were the DOMINANT world power! So it is impossible for the second empire (persians) to have existed AFTER the Grecian empire had been supplanted by the Romans just in time for islam to come in and smuggle itself into Daniel 2!

So yes islam defeated the persians at some point . . . long long after the Medo-Persian empire of Daniel 2 had ceased to exist.

Daft again. the barbarians (a mix of iron and clay) who sacked Rome and divided the western roman empire (the iron empire) included the visigoths (Spain), Franks (france), alamanni (germans), Saxons (english nation) e.t.c. so yeah the europeans who make up those 10 toes did exist then . . . in fact they were responsible for the fall and division of Rome in AD 476.

Better to keep quiet when you are ignorant.

Yes the 10 toes were not kingdoms .  ,  they were smaller tribes within the western roman empire. That is the explanation for the mixing of iron and clay. The iron doesnt completely go away, it is simply weakened and broken up by smaller tribes.

To say the barbarians were not a "distinct people" is laughably stup[i]i[/i]d. I suppose you think visigoths (spanish-speaking people) are not distinct from the alamanni (germans)? I know you must lie for allah but please be informed first.

Read it for me from the quran first you dud.

It didnt id[i]i[/i]ot. What about the third empire (grecian)? Did islam forget to destroy those ones too since the second empire (Persians) could not have come AFTER the third empire.

if that is the case then the islamic god must be a whimpy pathetic fellow. His people are just cannon fodder for jewish, american and russian weapons of mass destruction. too bad.

my friend,when the posts get too long and boring as yours,they are full of lies and apart from that they become personal arguments and contests and a medium to exchange insults and curses.

i do not have time for that.everyone will use his head to figure out the truth of the matter.

as for you personally,YOU SHOULD GO AND LEARN THAT PERSIA STILL EXISTED UP TO THE DAYS AND EVEN AFTER THE ADVENT OF ISLAM UNTIL MUSLIMS TOOK IT OVER COMPLETELY AND PERSIA (PRESENT-DAY IRAN) BECOMES ISLAMIC AND IS ISLAMIC UP TO THIS DAY.

if you cannot use your brain with basic facts like even though the greeks defeated the persians and the greeks were dominant,persia still existed,then you're not worthy of a debate.i would not waste time.you're denying history that muslims fought with persians and persia existed until muslims finally made it a part of theirs.

how empty of you? 

LagosShia:

my friend,when the posts get too long and boring as yours,they are full of lies and apart from that they become personal arguments and contests and a medium to exchange insults and curses.

i do not have time for that.everyone will use his head to figure out the truth of the matter.

as for you personally,YOU SHOULD GO AND LEARN THAT PERSIA STILL EXISTED UP TO THE DAYS AND EVEN AFTER THE ADVENT OF ISLAM UNTIL MUSLIMS TOOK IT OVER COMPLETELY AND PERSIA (PRESENT-DAY IRAN) BECOMES ISLAMIC AND IS ISLAMIC UP TO THIS DAY.

if you cannot use your brain with basic facts like even though the greeks defeated the persians and the greeks were dominant,persia still existed,then you're not worthy of a debate.i would not waste time.you're denying history that muslims fought with persians and persia existed until muslims finally made it a part of theirs.

how empty of you? 

how dumb. I do understand your desperate need to smuggle islam into Daniel chapter 2 but even an idiot knows the facts. In order to accept your fantastic claim . . . we need to believe the lie that the 2nd empire (breast of silver) somehow survived the 3rd empire (Grecian) and continued on even until the 4th empire?

rome still exists in Italy today . . . does it still constitute the 4th empire? Italy was defeated in the second world war . . . does that mean the allies are now a part of the 5th kingdom that destroyed the Roman empire?

Even at that . . . the 2nd kingdom in Daniel 5 was a Medo-Persian empire . . . it contained the medes as well . . . did islam also defeat the medes at any point in time?

Ode. Go bring your quran . . . allah should have left some prophecies there no?

davidylan:

how dumb. I do understand your desperate need to smuggle islam into Daniel chapter 2 but even an  knows the facts. In order to accept your fantastic claim . . . we need to believe the lie that the 2nd empire (bosom of silver) somehow survived the 3rd empire (Grecian) and continued on even until the 4th empire? 

rome still exists in Italy today . . . does it still constitute the 4th empire? Italy was defeated in the second world war . . . does that mean the allies are now a part of the 5th kingdom that destroyed the Roman empire?

Even at that . . . the 2nd kingdom in Daniel 5 was a Medo-Persian empire . . . it contained the medes as well . . . did islam also defeat the medes at any point in time?

Ode. Go bring your quran . . . allah should have left some prophecies there no?

so sad!

you want to use ignorance and your blindness to discredit logic and historical facts and win a debate.

it is common practice that christian zealots like to rewrite history.infact,you rewrite your bible regularly to suit your beliefs and desires.

when we say that the 2nd kingdom still exsited,it means that the second kingdom (persia) was no completely defeated or annhilated.it means that in its government and structure as an empire it continued to exist as a political entity.

on the other hand,Rome which still exists today only does exist in name and as a place and not as a political entity as in the days of the roman empire.the difference is glaring.

you want us to ignore history and believe that persia did not exist ?

well,if it makes you feel good,suit yourself.how can persia not exist when the muslim army fought battles with persia?

how also can persia not exist when persia fought a decisive battle with the roman empire in the early days of the advent of islam? you should know that that battle is mentioned even in the Holy Quran and it is a prophesy that the romans will defeat the persians,after the persians defeated the romans.check Surat Ar-Room.

LagosShia:

so sad!

you want to use ignorance and your blindness to discredit logic and historical facts and win a debate.

Dumb.

when it comes to logic you have it completely twisted.

You said and i quote - the point is[b],the fifth kingdom from all indications both in history texts and the prophecy itself has come with the advent of Islam and the defeat suffered by the fourth and also the third kingdom[/b] in the hands of the muslim army.

Of which you claim the THIRD and FOURTH kingdoms are those of the Persians and Romans.

Well we know that logically, historically and biblically speaking that is just flat out wrong.

First of all the Medo-Persian empire was the SECOND (2nd) empire NOT the third empire as you falsely claimed. Infact the rise of the Medo-Persian empire founded by Cyrus the great is described in Daniel 2 as coming AFTER the fall of Nebuchadnezzar and was recorded in Daniel 5. The Medo-Persian (2nd empire) was defeated by the THIRD empire (Grecian empire led by Alexander the great) in 331 BC . . . long before islam ever appeared.

What is common to all 4 empires = they were the dominant world power of their time. The Sassanid persian empire (also known as the second persian empire) NEVER dominated the world at any time.

The Sassanid persian empire which islam defeated is NOT the third empire you falsely claim it is and has NOTHING to do with the prophecies of Daniel 2.

Speak of logic and history. what an id[i]i[/i]ot.

LagosShia:

CHAPTER 30 OF THE HOLY QURAN:

Alif, Lam, Meem.
The Romans have been defeated.In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome.Within three to nine years. To Allah belongs the command before and after. And that day the believers will rejoiceIn the victory of Allah . He gives victory to whom He wills, and He is the Exalted in Might, the Merciful.[It is] the promise of Allah . Allah does not fail in His promise, but most of the people do not know.

What a joke. compare the succinct prophecies in Daniel to the vague nonsense above.

The romans have been defeated - by who?
In the nearest land - where is that?
They will overcome - overcome what, when and why? Once the romans were defeated in 476 Ad by the barbarians they are yet to overcome anything 1500 yrs after. What a disgrace. Best to keep the quran closed at this point.

LagosShia:

The Sassanid Empire (also spelled Sasanid Empire, Sassanian Empire, or Sasanian Empire), known to its inhabitants as Ērānshahr and Ērān in Middle Persian and resulting in the New Persian terms Iranshahr and Iran [4], was the last pre-Islamic Persian Empire, ruled by the Sasanian Dynasty from 224 to 651.[1][5] The Sassanid Empire, which succeeded the Parthian Empire, was recognized as one of the two main powers in Western Asia and Europe, alongside the Roman Empire and its successor, the Byzantine Empire, for a period of more than 400 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire

did you ignore the medo-persian empire of Cyrus the great? That was the only period medes and persians ruled the world. Its on wiki too, i know it doesnt square with your desperate attempt to force islam in as the 5th kingdom but Alexander the great destroyed them not islam.

davidylan:

did you ignore the medo-persian empire of Cyrus the great? That was the only period medes and persians ruled the world. Its on wiki too, i know it doesnt square with your desperate attempt to force islam in as the 5th kingdom but Alexander the great destroyed them not islam.

my friend,you're ignorant and you are still arguing.the Persian empire existed in stages.simply because it existed as medio-persia in earlier times,does not mean it did not exist under the Sassanids.it is still Persian empire and by the same people.the only difference is change of rulers.

LagosShia:

my friend,you're ignorant and you are still arguing.the Persian empire existed in stages.simply because it existed as medio-persia in earlier times,does not mean it did not exist under the Sassanids.it is still Persian empire and by the same people.the only difference is change of rulers.

dumb again. I specifically stated the clear similarities between all 4 kingdoms . . . verse 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

At what point did the Sassanids bear rule over all the earth?

This part of the prophecy was fulfilled under the pharaohs - Egypt
Assyrians
Babylonian empire - nebuchadnezzar
Medo-Persian - Cyrus
Grecian - Alexander
Roman - Emperors.

Going back to your earlier statement that i notice you striving to ignore. At what point did the Sassanids become the third kingdom since we know quite clearly that the romans were the fourth? We know the second empire . . . very clearly stated and indicated in Daniel 2 and 5 as the medo-persians of Cyrus the great. So if the Sassanids were the third then where do you fit the Grecian empire under Alexander the great? It didnt exist since this does not accomodate the islamic tale?

Talk of calling others ignorant.

LagosShia:

my friend,you're ignorant and you are still arguing.the Persian empire existed in stages.simply because it existed as medio-persia in earlier times,does not mean it did not exist under the Sassanids.it is still Persian empire and by the same people.the only difference is change of rulers.

I have to agree with David here, the junk you keep trying to use and fit into an Islamic perspective just does not add up and is plain silly !!!

Having myself also read not just the biblical accounts but also historical facts , you are beginning to make a mockery of ISLAM .

@Davidylan

please answer these:

are the iranians (present-day persians) muslims or not?

how did they become muslim? did any war take place?

remember that your point is muslims could not have defeated the persians because the persian empire did not exist during the advent of islam.

simply because different dynasties (set of rulers) ruled over persia,should not make you think the Achaemenid Empire is separate from the Sassanid Empire.both were the same people from the same land.they were persians.and their rivalry with the greeco-romans was the same.

thanks.

@frosbel
just keep quiet.at least David made a late come back attempt to distort things with his confused reading of history.all you and your likes did was to be starring at this thread with no attempt to refute anything.ofcourse,it is not possible to refute what is truth.

just keep quiet.at least David made a late come back attempt to distort things with his confused reading of history.all you and your likes did was to be starring at this thread with no attempt to refute anything.ofcourse,it is not possible to refute what is truth.

I knew ur claims are all false, i wouldnt ve the time to do as @Davidlan, even as ur false claim of Daniel 2 in surport of Islam
Has totally be proved wrong, u still take the courage in qouting, instead of accepting u misinterpreted the bible as usual.
How will u ve knowledge of the bible as a Muslim? Am so glad @ Davidlan defeated u with clear qouts.

Davidlan: what's absolutely untrue. maybe you need to stop lying . . . i wonder how many christians here are busy opening threads to convince jews about christianity . . . muslims on the other hand spend so much time bleating about allah's alleged prophecies that dont exist anywhere in the quran. I wonder why allah wasted so much time sending prophecies through a jew and through a medium his people are doing anything to destroy. If islam had its way the bible would long have been destroyed . . . how would you then be arguing on Daniel 2?

To the bold:: What an intelligent question, she is got no answer

LagosShia: i put forth the different sources of bible verses to clearly demonstrate to you that not everything in the bible is from God.

especially those words from from Jesus, but the once u use to back up Islam are sure from God.
Its a shame to even use this kind of book to back up ur doctrim, dont u think? Use ur tongue to count ur teeth LAGOSSHIA.

plappville:

I knew your claims are all false, i wouldnt ve the time to do as @Davidlan, even as your false claim of Daniel 2 in surport of Islam
Has totally be proved wrong, u still take the courage in qouting, instead of accepting u misinterpreted the bible as usual.
How will u ve knowledge of the bible as a Muslim? Am so glad @ Davidlan defeated u with clear qouts.

cant you see he ran away?he would not answer the last question because it'd sure expose his ignorance.stop the habit of claiming undeserved victory.infact this isn't a game but about the truth.so congratulations for your so called "victory".

Its a shame to even use this kind of book to back up your doctrim, dont u think? Use your tongue to count your teeth LAGOSSHIA.

repetition.already answered.

JohnOneOne:

New World Translation - John 1:1c - "and the Word was a god."

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses' "New World Translation" Bible and its rendering of John 1:1, it may interest you to know that, in support and explanation of their wording of this verse (especially within the third clause with "a god", there is soon to be published a 19+ year study (as of 10/2011), a thoroughly researched reference work - an historical analysis & exhaustive annotated bibliography - it will be entitled, "What About John 1:1?"

To learn more of its design and expected release date, you are invited to visit:

http://www.goodcompanionbooks.com

When finally published, apart from discussing many of the other topics and scriptures often related to the man-made Trinity doctrine, you will also discover that we have collected information on about 430+ scholarly reference works (mostly Trinitarian) which, throughout the centuries, had opted to say something other than, "and the Word was God," and that, included among them are over 120 which had chosen to use "a god" within the third clause of their renderings.

As you might expect, we are very excited at the opportunity to share our findings with others.

Agape, JohnOneOne.

it is a fact that out of 24000 manuscripts of the new testament bible,no two are identical.so it is really not suprising you are in dilemma.

for john 1:1,please read more here:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-4050.288.html#msg8778883

for interpolation in John 1,read here:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bible_interpolation#The_only_begotten_Son_.28John_1:18.29

"half of the new testament is forged":
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-687029.0.html

Na wa o, so muslims also believe in the prophesies of the Bible.
I see that all religion on earth look up to the Bible to validate their claims, even though they later go on to discredit the Bible.
If the bible is this important to every religion, then I must remain a true christian. Jesus is Lord indee.

wellmax:

Na wa o, so muslims also believe in the prophesies of the Bible.
I see that all religion on earth look up to the Bible to validate their claims, even though they later go on to discredit the Bible.
If the bible is this important to every religion, then I must remain a true christian. Jesus is Lord indee.

you are not right my dear.you have being answered in detail in the below post in this thread on page #1:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-772940.0.html#msg9264044

What is wrong with you muslims, what in heavens sake is wrong with you people, why can't you and others leave the bible alone, you said CHRIST-ianity is a false religion, you compare yourself with Christ-ians and here you are taking verse from our bible to justify your stupid religion.

Why can't you guys let us be, leave the confuse and misleading Holy Bible alone to continue to confuse and mislead us, next time quote from your quran and not our Holy Bible, you kill us everyday, are you not satisfied? what else do you people want from us? what you do want? and if i may ask, what point are you trying to prove?

If islam is the only true religion, keep it to yourself.

PLEASE LET US (CHRIST-ians) be, please i beg you in the name of GOD, let us be.





"I will continue to cherish the old rugged cross and exchange it one day for a crown" you muslims will never understand

wellmax:

Na wa o, so muslims also believe in the prophesies of the Bible.
I see that all religion on earth look up to the Bible to validate their claims, even though they later go on to discredit the Bible.
If the bible is this important to every religion, then I must remain a true christian. Jesus is Lord indee.

Of course, the bible is the "HOLY" word of God. The koran was all made up frm the bible and other history books, if u reads it, u will discover much repeatation of the bible etc, This book Koran was written to distroy the bible purity, but it has failed. Gone at those day, when only Arabians can read it. Truth of its falsehood, plenty errors made by the Mohamed all becos of copy from multiple book ve been exposed.

The greatest mistake anyone will make is to be used by this slavering doctrine. Keep ur faith dearly.

LagosShia:

cant you see he ran away?he would not answer the last question because it'd sure expose his ignorance.stop the habit of claiming undeserved victory.infact this isn't a game but about the truth.so congratulations for your so called "victory".
repetition.already answered.

Davidlan wrotes:If islam had its way the bible would long have been destroyed . . . how would you then be arguing on Daniel 2?

U didn't answer it, and this is a very good question he asked.

Point of correction, i am not here for victory claims, all is done for the glory of God.
People must not be slavering by the falsehood of the Koran.