honesttalk21:


Translation of “مِن دُونِ” to “alongside”
The phrase “مِن دُونِ” in Arabic can be translated to “alongside” in English. However, it is important to note that the context of the sentence plays a significant role in determining the most accurate translation.

Understanding the phrase “مِن دُونِ”
The phrase “مِن دُونِ” is composed of two words: “مِن” (min) and “دُونِ” (duni). The word “مِن” is a preposition that is often translated to “from” or “of,” while “دُونِ” is also a preposition that can be translated to “without.” Together, these words are used to indicate a location or position that is separate from something else.

I understand your argument and to some extent I agree with it for using the word alongside rather than instead of or other than

The only problem is that
1. There is not even one English translation of the Qur'an that uses the word alongside
2. The use of the word alongside is prone to changing the meaning of the text to what is not intended.
For instance, going by your translation, the phrase

They took their teachers and professors as guides alongside Ali and the king, the son of Mary

Would mean that the subject (they) took their teachers and professors as guides/mentors IN ADDITION to Ali AND the King, the son of Mary.

This means that the use of alongside imply a more cooperative association between two groups of
1. The Teachers and the Professor
2. Ali and the king

I am sure this also is not what you intend to say.

I guess you can see why no translator of the Qur'an uses alongside to depict min dooni

honesttalk21:

Translating “مِن دُونِ” as “alongside”
In certain contexts, the phrase “مِن دُونِ” can be translated to “alongside.” This translation is most commonly used when the phrase is being used to describe two things that are physically located next to each other. For example, the sentence “السَّفِينَةُ تَجْرِي مِن دُونِ الْبَحْرِ” (Al-safīnahu tajrī min dūni al-bahr) could be translated to “The ship sails alongside the sea.”

However, it is important to note that this translation is not always accurate. In some cases, translating “مِن دُونِ” as “alongside” can change the meaning of the sentence entirely. Therefore, it is essential to consider the context of the sentence before translating this phrase.

I agree with the highlighted and of course you can see how the text has been distorted. As it is equally bad:

Your translation using besides actually encourage the Subject (they) to make as mentors the union of the Teacher, Professor, Ali and the king.

honesttalk21:

Other possible translations of “مِن دُونِ”
In addition to being translated as “alongside,” the phrase “مِن دُوńي” can also be translated to other English phrases depending on the context. For example, in some cases, it may be translated to:

Without: In some cases, the phrase “مِن دُونِ” can be translated to “without.” For example, the sentence “لا يَجِدُ حَلًا مِن دُوْنِ الْكِتَاب” (Lā yajidu ḥalāan min dūni al-kitāb) can be translated to “He cannot find a solution without the book.”
Apart from: In other cases, the phrase may be translated to “apart from.” For example, the sentence “مَا زَالَ الْعَالَمُ مَهْذُبًا مِن دُوْنِ اللّه” (Mā zāla al-ʿālamu mahdhubāan min dūni Allāh) can be translated to “The world has always been dependent on God apart from anything else.”
Except: Finally, in some cases, the phrase may be translated to “except.” For example, the sentence “قَامَ الرَّجُلُ مَرَّةً إلَّا مِن دُوْنِ الصَّاحب” (Qāma al-rajulun marraatan illa min dūni aş-ṣāḥib) can be translated to “The man stood up once except for his friend.”

Min dooni of a truth is better translated as without , apart from and except

And there are synonyms of other than or instead of

And this, I have used in translating the text as
The translation :
"They took their teachers and professors as mentors other than Ali and the king, the son of Mary."



Except if you feel that Allah expect that the Subject (they) should take their Monks and Rabbis in addition to the Messiah and Allah as Gods

honesttalk21:

Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages however they are not the same.

Arabic vs. Hebrew Language

Arabic and Hebrew are both Semitic languages with unique characteristics that set them apart from each other. Here are some key differences between Arabic and Hebrew:

1. Alphabet:

Arabic: The Arabic alphabet consists of 28 letters and is written from right to left. It is a cursive script, meaning that letters within a word are connected.
Hebrew: The Hebrew alphabet has 22 letters and is also written from right to left. Like Arabic, it is a cursive script with letters connected within words.

See picture.

2. Phonetics and Sounds:

Arabic: Arabic has a rich phonetic system with sounds that may be challenging for non-native speakers, such as guttural sounds like “ayn” and “ghayn”.
Hebrew: Hebrew also has unique sounds, including consonants that are pronounced differently based on their placement within a word.

3. Vocabulary and Grammar:

Arabic: Arabic vocabulary is largely derived from triliteral roots, where patterns of consonants convey meaning. It has a complex system of verb conjugation and noun declension which is the case displayed in this verse that you are grossly ignorant of.


Hebrew: Hebrew vocabulary is also rooted in triliteral roots, but its grammar differs in some aspects, such as the use of gender and number agreement.


In context is the Quran revealed in Arabic difficult to understand by native Arabic speakers of Arabia in whose language it was revealed?

Still irrelevant to the discussion as both of them Hebrew and Arabic are both semitic language which though different, but they belong to the same family and thus share many rules of Grammar, Syntax and Vocabularies together.


Again, if it is indeed true that Allah made the Qur'an simple, why do we need hundreds of books to understand it.

TenQ:

I understand your argument and to some extent I agree with it for using the word alongside rather than instead of or other than

The only problem is that
1. There is not even one English translation of the Qur'an that uses the word alongside
2. The use of the word alongside is prone to changing the meaning of the text to what is not intended.
For instance, going by your translation, the phrase

They took their teachers and professors as guides alongside Ali and the king, the son of Mary

Would mean that the subject (they) took their teachers and professors as guides/mentors IN ADDITION to Ali AND the King, the son of Mary.

This means that the use of alongside imply a more cooperative association between two groups of
1. The Teachers and the Professor
2. Ali and the king

I am sure this also is not what you intend to say.

I guess you can see why no translator of the Qur'an uses alongside to depict min dooni




I agree with the highlighted and of course you can see how the text has been distorted. As it is equally bad:

Your translation using besides actually encourage the Subject (they) to make as mentors the union of the Teacher, Professor, Ali and the king.



Min dooni of a truth is better translated as without , apart from and except

And there are synonyms of other than or instead of

And this, I have used in translating the text as
The translation :
"They took their teachers and professors as mentors other than Ali and the king, the son of Mary."



Except if you feel that Allah expect that the Subject (they) should take their Monks and Rabbis in addition to the Messiah and Allah as Gods


Still irrelevant to the discussion as both of them Hebrew and Arabic are both semitic language which though different, but they belong to the same family and thus share many rules of Grammar, Syntax and Vocabularies together.


Again, if it is indeed true that Allah made the Qur'an simple, why do we need hundreds of books to understand it.

You are the one who needs hundreds of books to understand it.

Despite the similarities Arabic vocabulary is largely derived from triliteral roots, where patterns of consonants convey meaning. It has a complex system of verb conjugation and noun declension which is the case displayed in this verse that you are grossly ignorant of. Hebrew doesn't have the complex system of verb conjugation.

Surah Al-Tawbah in the verse 9:31 in the Quran refers to the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who have taken their rabbis and monks as lords instead of Allah. The verse also mentions that they have been commanded to worship one God only, but they have taken Jesus as God besides Allah.

This verse is revealed in the context of the hypocrites in Medina who were not fully committed to Islam. They were still holding onto some of their old beliefs and practices, including reverence for their religious leaders and Jesus. The verse emphasizes that Allah alone is worthy of worship and that taking any other being as a lord or deity besides Him is a grave sin.

honesttalk21:


You are the one who needs hundreds of books to understand it.

Despite the similarities Arabic vocabulary is largely derived from triliteral roots, where patterns of consonants convey meaning. It has a complex system of verb conjugation and noun declension which is the case displayed in this verse that you are grossly ignorant of. Hebrew doesn't have the complex system of verb conjugation.

Surah Al-Tawbah in the verse 9:31 in the Quran refers to the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who have taken their rabbis and monks as lords instead of Allah. The verse also mentions that they have been commanded to worship one God only, but they have taken Jesus as God besides Allah.

This verse is revealed in the context of the hypocrites in Medina who were not fully committed to Islam. They were still holding onto some of their old beliefs and practices, including reverence for their religious leaders and Jesus. The verse emphasizes that Allah alone is worthy of worship and that taking any other being as a lord or deity besides Him is a grave sin.

Are you saying that Allah took the most complex ambiguous language Arabic to convey to mankind his will instead of simpler easily comprehensible language like Hausa or Swahili or even English language !?



With all the exegesis of the language you just did for yourself, you still find it convenient to spew out falsehood.

Check your quote highlighted for you in yellow. I have completed it for you

Surah Al-Tawbah in the verse 9:31 in the Quran refers to the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who have taken their rabbis and monks as lords instead of Allah AND the Messiah, son of Mary.


It was obviously an ERROR in the Qur'an which I can correct for Allah and you Muslims as



The Correction of Qur'an 9:31 :
"They took their Rabbis , and Monks AND the Messiah the son of Mary as Lords other than Allah.
أَخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَرْبَابًا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ


Is this not better if this is what Allah intend to say?

Too bad for the perfect Qur'an!




Can we stop here now?
The Truth you adopt will always set you free!

TenQ:


Are you saying that Allah took the most complex ambiguous language Arabic to convey to mankind his will instead of simpler easily comprehensible language like Hausa or Swahili or even English language !?



With all the exegesis of the language you just did for yourself, you still find it convenient to spew out falsehood.

Check your quote highlighted for you in yellow. I have completed it for you

Surah Al-Tawbah in the verse 9:31 in the Quran refers to the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who have taken their rabbis and monks as lords instead of Allah AND the Messiah, son of Mary.


It was obviously an ERROR in the Qur'an which I can correct for Allah and you Muslims as



The Correction of Qur'an 9:31 :
"They took their Rabbis , and Monks AND the Messiah the son of Mary as Lords other than Allah.
أَخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَرْبَابًا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ


Is this not better if this is what Allah intend to say?

Too bad for the perfect Qur'an!




Can we stop here now?
The Truth you adopt will always set you free!

Was Arabic not the language of the Arabians in Arabia at the time Muhammad pbuh preached.

Did they have interactions with people from other places who were not native Arabic speakers? Did these people translate their beliefs from another to Arabic? Probably so.

You are free to practice your belief as it is yours just don't mandate or force it on others.

Live and let live

I guess that this is what Allah intended to say

Qur'an 9:31 :
"They took their Rabbis , and Monks AND the Messiah the son of Mary as Lords other than Allah.
أَخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَرْبَابًا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ


Isn't it?

honesttalk21:


Was Arabic not the language of the Arabians in Arabia at the time Muhammad pbuh preached.

Did they have interactions with people from other places who were not native Arabic speakers? Did these people translate their beliefs from another to Arabic? Probably so.

You are free to practice your belief as it is yours just don't mandate or force it on others.

Live and let live

No one can force anyone to do anything with respect to religion or faith and that cannot be my intention.

But I will be a wicked human being if I know the truth and withhold my knowledge which is able to save others from the deception of satan.

Most Muslims are sincere, but such is true about anyone who invested his money in a scam business.

Prov 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

I truly invite you to the Messiah for your salvation!


Can we stop here now?
The Truth you adopt will always set you free!

I believe one of my brothers; I think Explore2more, told you this many months ago.

The verse Surah Al-Tawbah (9:31) in the Quran. It refers to the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who have taken their rabbis and monks as lords instead of Allah. The verse also mentions that they have been commanded to worship one God only, but they have taken Jesus as God besides Allah.


This verse is believed to have been revealed in the context of the hypocrites in Medina who were not fully committed to Islam. They were still holding onto some of their old beliefs and practices, including reverence for their religious leaders and Jesus. The verse emphasizes that Allah alone is worthy of worship and that taking any other being as a lord or deity besides Him is a grave sin.

While monks, rabbis, and Jesus are respected for their roles in their respective religions, Muslims do not consider them to be divine or worthy of worship. They are seen as individuals who have been given a special role in their communities but are not deities themselves.

As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both the Jews and them to be liars,

ذلِكَ قَوْلُهُم بِأَفْوَهِهِمْ

(That is their saying with their mouths), but they have no proof that supports their claim, other than lies and fabrications,

يُضَـهِئُونَ

(resembling), imitating,

قَوْلَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن قَبْلُ

(the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime.) They imitate the previous nations who fell into misguidance just as Jews and Christians did,

قَـتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ

(may Allah fight them), Ibn `Abbas said, "May Allah curse them."

أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ

(how they are deluded away from the truth!) how they deviate from truth, when it is apparent, exchanging it for misguidance. Allah said next,

اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَـرَهُمْ وَرُهْبَـنَهُمْ أَرْبَاباً مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ

(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah...) that the Christians and Jews obeyed their monks and rabbis in whatever they allowed or prohibited for them. This is why Allah said,

وَمَآ أُمِرُواْ إِلاَّ لِيَعْبُدُواْ إِلَـهاً وَحِداً

(while they were commanded to worship none but One God), Who, whatever He renders prohibited is the prohibited, whatever He allowed is the allowed, whatever He legislates, is to be the law followed, and whatever He decides is to be adhered to;

لاَّ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ سُبْحَـنَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

(None has the right to be worshipped but He. Hallowed be He above what they associate (with Him).) Meaning, exalted, sanctified, hallowed above partners, equals, aids, rivals or children, there is no deity or Lord worthy of worship except Him.

honesttalk21:
I believe one of my brothers; I think Explore2more, told you this many months ago.

The verse Surah Al-Tawbah (9:31) in the Quran. It refers to the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who have taken their rabbis and monks as lords instead of Allah. The verse also mentions that they have been commanded to worship one God only, but they have taken Jesus as God besides Allah.


This verse is believed to have been revealed in the context of the hypocrites in Medina who were not fully committed to Islam. They were still holding onto some of their old beliefs and practices, including reverence for their religious leaders and Jesus. The verse emphasizes that Allah alone is worthy of worship and that taking any other being as a lord or deity besides Him is a grave sin.

While monks, rabbis, and Jesus are respected for their roles in their respective religions, Muslims do not consider them to be divine or worthy of worship. They are seen as individuals who have been given a special role in their communities but are not deities themselves.

This is according to the consensus of your scholars and is different from the text of Qur'an 9:31

What Allah says in the Qur'an was:

Qur'an 9:31
They (Jews and Christians) have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides (instead of) Allah and the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

Who is more important : Allah or your scholars?

honesttalk21:
As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both the Jews and them to be liars,

ذلِكَ قَوْلُهُم بِأَفْوَهِهِمْ

(That is their saying with their mouths), but they have no proof that supports their claim, other than lies and fabrications,

يُضَـهِئُونَ

(resembling), imitating,

قَوْلَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن قَبْلُ

(the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime.) They imitate the previous nations who fell into misguidance just as Jews and Christians did,

قَـتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ

(may Allah fight them), Ibn `Abbas said, "May Allah curse them."

أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ

(how they are deluded away from the truth!) how they deviate from truth, when it is apparent, exchanging it for misguidance. Allah said next,

اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَـرَهُمْ وَرُهْبَـنَهُمْ أَرْبَاباً مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ

(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah...) that the Christians and Jews obeyed their monks and rabbis in whatever they allowed or prohibited for them. This is why Allah said,

وَمَآ أُمِرُواْ إِلاَّ لِيَعْبُدُواْ إِلَـهاً وَحِداً

(while they were commanded to worship none but One God), Who, whatever He renders prohibited is the prohibited, whatever He allowed is the allowed, whatever He legislates, is to be the law followed, and whatever He decides is to be adhered to;

لاَّ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ سُبْحَـنَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

(None has the right to be worshipped but He. Hallowed be He above what they associate (with Him).) Meaning, exalted, sanctified, hallowed above partners, equals, aids, rivals or children, there is no deity or Lord worthy of worship except Him.

You are just repeating yourself and is different from what Allah said in the Qur'an.

It's either a mistake or an error.


Most likely, Allah intended to say:

Qur'an 9:31 :
"They took their Rabbis , and Monks AND the Messiah the son of Mary as Lords other than Allah.
أَخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَرْبَابًا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ


What do I know?
The Quran is perfectly preserved!


Please let's close this chapter till another time.

Isn't it?

TenQ:

You are just repeating yourself and is different from what Allah said in the Qur'an.

It's either a mistake or an error.


Most likely, Allah intended to say:

Qur'an 9:31 :
"They took their Rabbis , and Monks AND the Messiah the son of Mary as Lords other than Allah.
أَخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَرْبَابًا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ


What do I know?
The Quran is perfectly preserved!


Please let's close this chapter till another time.

Isn't it?

Your reasoning from English language and how sentences are arranged is what limits.
You see these translations of the meaning and not literal translation you rely on.

9.31 Abbas - Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
(They have taken as lords beside Allah) i.e. they obeyed them in acts of disobedience (their rabbis) the men of knowledge among the Jews (and their monks) who reside in monasteries (and the Messiah son of Mary) and they have taken the Messiah son of Mary as lord, (when they were bidden) in all Scriptures (to worship) to confess the divine Oneness of (only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!) Allah exalts Himself above all that which they ascribe to Him.
9.31 Jalal - Al-Jalalayn
They have taken their rabbis, the scholars among the Jews, and their monks, the devout among the Christians, as lords beside God — following them in making lawful what God has made unlawful and making unlawful what He has made lawful — and the Messiah, son of Mary, when they were not commanded, in the Torah and the Gospel, except to worship One God: there is no god except Him; glory be to Him, as an affirmation of His transcendence [high], above what they associate [with Him].


Adi ibn Hatim narrated: "I came to the Prophet (ﷺ) while I had a cross of gold around my neck. He said: 'O Adi! Remove this idol from yourself!’ And I heard him reciting from Surah Bara’ah: They took their rabbis and monks as lords besides Allah (9:31). He said: ‘As for them, they did not worship them, but when they made something lawful for them, they considered it lawful, and when they made something unlawful for them, they considered it unlawful.’" (Jami’ At-Tirmidhi)

The narrator Adi ibn Hatim is narrating the story about himself. Imam Tirmidhi considered this hadith Ghareeb, and Darussalam grades it as Daeef.

This version is shorter since there is no initial questioning by Adi ibn Hatim. The longer one is quoted in Ibn Kathir’s tafsir for the verse 19:31.

Imam Ahmad, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Jarir At-Tabari recorded a Hadith via several chains of narration, from Adi bin Hatim, may Allah be pleased with him, who became Christian during the time of Jahiliyyah. When the call of the Messenger of Allah reached his area, Adi ran away to Ash-Sham, and his sister and several of his people were captured. The Messenger of Allah freed his sister and gave her gifts. So she went to her brother and encouraged him to become Muslim and to go to the Messenger of Allah .

Adi, who was one of the chiefs of his people (the tribe of Tai’) and whose father, Hatim At-Ta’i, was known for his generosity, went to Al-Madinah. When the people announced his arrival, Adi went to the Messenger of Allah wearing a silver cross around his neck. The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah; (They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah).

Adi commented, "I said, `They did not worship them.’"

The Prophet said, "Yes they did. They (rabbis and monks) prohibited the allowed for them (Christians and Jews) and allowed the prohibited, and they obeyed them. This is how they worshipped them."

The Messenger of Allah said to Adi, "O Adi what do you say Did you run away (to Ash-Sham) so that ‘Allahu Akbar’ (Allah is the Great) is not pronounced Do you know of anything greater than Allah What made you run away Did you run away so that `La ilaha illallah’ is not pronounced Do you know of any deity worthy of worship except Allah."

The Messenger invited Adi to embrace Islam, and he embraced Islam and pronounced the Testimony of Truth. The face of the Messenger of Allah beamed with pleasure and he said to Adi, "Verily, the Jews have earned the anger (of Allah) and the Christians are misguided." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir for 9:31)

TenQ:

This is according to the consensus of your scholars and is different from the text of Qur'an 9:31

What Allah says in the Qur'an was:

Qur'an 9:31
They (Jews and Christians) have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides (instead of) Allah and the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

Who is more important : Allah or your scholars?

Provide reference. This is at variance to translations approved.

honesttalk21:


Your reasoning from English language and how sentences are arranged is what limits.
You see these translations of the meaning and not literal translation you rely on.

No sir.
This was why I gave you a neutral Arabic sentence to translate.
أَخَذُوا مُعَلِّمِيهِمْ وَأُسْاتِذَتِهِمْ كَمُرَشِّدِينَ بِجَانِبِ عَلِيٍّ وَالْمَلِكِ، ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ

And even your translation wasn't too different from mine as.

The translation :
"They took their teachers and professors as mentors other than Ali and the king, the son of Mary."
Here is your translation (modified)
They took their teachers and professors as guides alongside Ali and the king, the son of Mary

This I have repeatedly and unbiasly said that with the Qur'an and the translation should be

Qur'an 9:31
They (Jews and Christians) have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides (instead of/alongside) Allah and the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

honesttalk21:

9.31 Abbas - Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
(They have taken as lords beside Allah) i.e. they obeyed them in acts of disobedience (their rabbis) the men of knowledge among the Jews (and their monks) who reside in monasteries (and the Messiah son of Mary) and they have taken the Messiah son of Mary as lord, (when they were bidden) in all Scriptures (to worship) to confess the divine Oneness of (only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!) Allah exalts Himself above all that which they ascribe to Him.
9.31 Jalal - Al-Jalalayn
They have taken their rabbis, the scholars among the Jews, and their monks, the devout among the Christians, as lords beside God — following them in making lawful what God has made unlawful and making unlawful what He has made lawful — and the Messiah, son of Mary, when they were not commanded, in the Torah and the Gospel, except to worship One God: there is no god except Him; glory be to Him, as an affirmation of His transcendence [high], above what they associate [with Him].


Adi ibn Hatim narrated: "I came to the Prophet (ﷺ) while I had a cross of gold around my neck. He said: 'O Adi! Remove this idol from yourself!’ And I heard him reciting from Surah Bara’ah: They took their rabbis and monks as lords besides Allah (9:31). He said: ‘As for them, they did not worship them, but when they made something lawful for them, they considered it lawful, and when they made something unlawful for them, they considered it unlawful.’" (Jami’ At-Tirmidhi)

The narrator Adi ibn Hatim is narrating the story about himself. Imam Tirmidhi considered this hadith Ghareeb, and Darussalam grades it as Daeef.

This version is shorter since there is no initial questioning by Adi ibn Hatim. The longer one is quoted in Ibn Kathir’s tafsir for the verse 19:31.

Imam Ahmad, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Jarir At-Tabari recorded a Hadith via several chains of narration, from Adi bin Hatim, may Allah be pleased with him, who became Christian during the time of Jahiliyyah. When the call of the Messenger of Allah reached his area, Adi ran away to Ash-Sham, and his sister and several of his people were captured. The Messenger of Allah freed his sister and gave her gifts. So she went to her brother and encouraged him to become Muslim and to go to the Messenger of Allah .

Adi, who was one of the chiefs of his people (the tribe of Tai’) and whose father, Hatim At-Ta’i, was known for his generosity, went to Al-Madinah. When the people announced his arrival, Adi went to the Messenger of Allah wearing a silver cross around his neck. The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah; (They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah).

Adi commented, "I said, `They did not worship them.’"

The Prophet said, "Yes they did. They (rabbis and monks) prohibited the allowed for them (Christians and Jews) and allowed the prohibited, and they obeyed them. This is how they worshipped them."

The Messenger of Allah said to Adi, "O Adi what do you say Did you run away (to Ash-Sham) so that ‘Allahu Akbar’ (Allah is the Great) is not pronounced Do you know of anything greater than Allah What made you run away Did you run away so that `La ilaha illallah’ is not pronounced Do you know of any deity worthy of worship except Allah."

The Messenger invited Adi to embrace Islam, and he embraced Islam and pronounced the Testimony of Truth. The face of the Messenger of Allah beamed with pleasure and he said to Adi, "Verily, the Jews have earned the anger (of Allah) and the Christians are misguided." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir for 9:31)

Are you agreeing that your scholars are saying that the verse actually mean :

Qur'an 9:31 :
"They took their Rabbis , and Monks AND the Messiah the son of Mary as Lords other than Allah?
أَخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَرْبَابًا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ

honesttalk21:


Provide reference. This is at variance to translations approved.

We have looked at the Arabic text haven't we?

The issue is NOT how your scholars want to re-interprete the verse but what Allah is truly saying

TenQ:

We have looked at the Arabic text haven't we?

The issue is NOT how your scholars want to re-interprete the verse but what Allah is truly saying

There's no reinterpretation here except yours speaking so authoritatively about a language you know too little of primarily because it challenges the root of your belief.

Do you say that Arabic doesn't have a complex verb and noun conjugation?

TenQ:

We have looked at the Arabic text haven't we?

The issue is NOT how your scholars want to re-interprete the verse but what Allah is truly saying

Who's translation is this? Do you no longer know what is meant by a reference?

honesttalk21:


There's no reinterpretation here except yours speaking so authoritatively about a language you know too little of primarily because it challenges the root of your belief.

Do you say that Arabic doesn't have a complex verb and noun conjugation?

Did we not look at a similar non Qur'an sentence?
How come this didn't require some elusive complex verb and noun conjugation?

You gat no excuse my brother. Language shouldn't change just because we are talking the Quran

honesttalk21:


Who's translation is this? Do you no longer know what is meant by a reference?

You did a translation for me remember!?

Only that it wasn't the Qur'an, thus you could speak the truth. But immediately it's the Qur'an, you must appeal to the consensus of your scholars.

This is not how it is done sir.

TenQ:

You did a translation for me remember!?

Only that it wasn't the Qur'an, thus you could speak the truth. But immediately it's the Qur'an, you must appeal to the consensus of your scholars.

This is not how it is done sir.

Yes I did a research. Did I attribute it to any other?

TenQ:

Are you agreeing that your scholars are saying that the verse actually mean :

Qur'an 9:31 :
"They took their Rabbis , and Monks AND the Messiah the son of Mary as Lords other than Allah?
أَخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَرْبَابًا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ

Which scholar says this is all I ask?

TenQ:

Did we not look at a similar non Qur'an sentence?
How come this didn't require some elusive complex verb and noun conjugation?

You gat no excuse my brother. Language shouldn't change just because we are talking the Quran

Have we considered where this or similar occurs elsewhere?

honesttalk21:


Yes I did a research. Did I attribute it to any other?
Which scholar says this is all I ask?

Ordinary Arabic spoken by Allah and you need the consent of your scholars to validate it?

Do you see why I said that Muslims don't believe in Allah and Mohammed. They believe in the consensus agreement of their scholars even when it is an obvious lie.


Is this what your scholars agree about?

Qur'an 9:31 :
"They took their Rabbis , and Monks AND the Messiah the son of Mary as Lords other than Allah?
أَخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَرْبَابًا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ

honesttalk21:


Have we considered where this or similar occurs elsewhere?

Yes, we did.

Have you forgotten that you translated for me

أَخَذُوا مُعَلِّمِيهِمْ وَأُسْاتِذَتِهِمْ كَمُرَشِّدِينَ بِجَانِبِ عَلِيٍّ وَالْمَلِكِ، ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ

The verb اتَّخَذُواْ (ittaKhathuwa) in Quran 9:31 is often translated as “they took” or “they have taken.” The full verse (9:31) states:

“They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.”

In this context, the verb اتَّخَذُواْ (ittaKhathuwa) is used in conjunction with the noun “Messiah, the son of Mary,” implying that some people have taken Isa (Jesus) as a god or a lord besides Allah. This interpretation is supported by the broader context of the Quran, which emphasizes the oneness of Allah and prohibits the worship of any other deities.

The verb اتَّخَذُواْ (ittaKhathuwa) is a form III verb in Arabic, which generally conveys the meaning of “taking” or “choosing.” In this specific instance, it is used in conjunction with the preposition بِ (bi), which can indicate “with” or “as.” Thus, the phrase الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ (al-masihu ib[/b]nu maryama) can be translated as “with the Messiah, the son of Mary” or “as the Messiah, the son of Mary.” The use of this preposition reinforces the idea that some people are taking Isa as a god or lord alongside Allah.


In Islamic theology, Quran 9:31 is interpreted as a condemnation of associating partners with Allah, known as shirk. This verse specifically mentions that some people have taken their scholars, monks, and Isa as lords besides Allah. [b]This behavior is considered a grave sin in Islam, as it violates the fundamental principle of Tawhid (the oneness of Allah). The verse emphasizes that these groups were not commanded to worship anyone except Allah and that there is no deity worthy of worship other than Him.

honesttalk21:
The verb اتَّخَذُواْ (ittaKhathuwa) in Quran 9:31 is often translated as “they took” or “they have taken.” The full verse (9:31) states:

“They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.”

In this context, the verb اتَّخَذُواْ (ittaKhathuwa) is used in conjunction with the noun “Messiah, the son of Mary,” implying that some people have taken Isa (Jesus) as a god or a lord besides Allah. This interpretation is supported by the broader context of the Quran, which emphasizes the oneness of Allah and prohibits the worship of any other deities.

The verb اتَّخَذُواْ (ittaKhathuwa) is a form III verb in Arabic, which generally conveys the meaning of “taking” or “choosing.” In this specific instance, it is used in conjunction with the preposition بِ (bi), which can indicate “with” or “as.” Thus, the phrase الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ (al-masihu [b]ib[/b]nu maryama) can be translated as “with the Messiah, the son of Mary” or “as the Messiah, the son of Mary.” The use of this preposition reinforces the idea that some people are taking Isa as a god or lord alongside Allah.


In Islamic theology, Quran 9:31 is interpreted as a condemnation of associating partners with Allah, known as shirk. This verse specifically mentions that some people have taken their scholars, monks, and Isa as lords besides Allah. This behavior is considered a grave sin in Islam, as it violates the fundamental principle of Tawhid (the oneness of Allah). The verse emphasizes that these groups were not commanded to worship anyone except Allah and that there is no deity worthy of worship other than Him.

Quran 9:31 is an obvious error that entered the Qur'an and ALL your scholars and translators of the Qur'an are struggling to correct it.

I checked up to 32 English translations and their stories didn't agree
While stone inserted words like ALSO (which is not in the Qur'an)
Others swapped the position of the Messiah to fit into their preferred Narrative.
Others just wrote what they wanted as how they wanted it to appear.


Unfortunately, you and I know that this is a mistake in the Qur'an and Muslim scholars are trying their best to correct it

TenQ:

Ordinary Arabic spoken by Allah and you need the consent of your scholars to validate it?

Do you see why I said that Muslims don't believe in Allah and Mohammed. They believe in the consensus agreement of their scholars even when it is an obvious lie.


Is this what your scholars agree about?

Qur'an 9:31 :
"They took their Rabbis , and Monks AND the Messiah the son of Mary as Lords other than Allah?
أَخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَرْبَابًا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ

Did you not say in writing:

TenQ:


Are you agreeing that your scholars are saying that the verse actually mean :

Qur'an 9:31 :
"They took their Rabbis , and Monks AND the Messiah the son of Mary as Lords other than Allah?
أَخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَرْبَابًا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ

Where are the scholars saying what you say they are saying?

honesttalk21:


In Islamic theology, Quran 9:31 is interpreted as a condemnation of associating partners with Allah, known as shirk. This verse specifically mentions that some people have taken their scholars, monks, and Isa as lords besides Allah. This behavior is considered a grave sin in Islam, as it violates the fundamental principle of Tawhid (the oneness of Allah). The verse emphasizes that these groups were not commanded to worship anyone except Allah and that there is no deity worthy of worship other than Him.

I agree with you that is exactly why Qur'an 9:31 is an error


Mohammed intended to say:

Qur'an 9:31 :
"They took their Rabbis , and Monks AND the Messiah the son of Mary as Lords other than Allah?
أَخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَرْبَابًا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ

TenQ:

Yes, we did.

Have you forgotten that you translated for me

أَخَذُوا مُعَلِّمِيهِمْ وَأُسْاتِذَتِهِمْ كَمُرَشِّدِينَ بِجَانِبِ عَلِيٍّ وَالْمَلِكِ، ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ

I should have specified that statement is in reference to within the text of the Qur'an.

honesttalk21:


I should have specified that statement is in reference to within the text of the Qur'an.

Can we stop now?

The topic was about the Inherent fundermental weakness of the Taoheed not about errors in the Qur'an!

Go and learn some more Arabic or consult a linguist proficient in both English and Arabic language.

You are disgracing yourself more and more saying what you don't know.

TenQ:

Can we stop now?

The topic was about the Inherent fundermental weakness of the Taoheed not about errors in the Qur'an!

Isn't the verse 9:31 further emphasying Tauhid?

TenQ:

Can we stop now?

The topic was about the Inherent fundermental weakness of the Taoheed not about errors in the Qur'an!

The verse in question, Quran 9:31, is as follows:

“They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.” (Quran 9:31)

This verse addresses the issue of shirk, which is the sin of associating partners with Allah in worship. In this context, it specifically mentions how some people have elevated their scholars and monks to a status similar to that of Allah, along with Jesus (Isa), the son of Maryam (Mary). The verse emphasizes the importance of Tawhid, which is the Islamic concept of monotheism and the belief in the oneness of Allah.

Tauhid is a fundamental concept in Islam that refers to the oneness of Allah in His lordship, names and attributes, and worship. It is the central theme of Islamic theology and belief. The concept of Tauhid encompasses the belief that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that He has no partners or associates. Muslims are required to worship Allah alone, without associating any partners with Him.

In interpreting Quran 9:31, we see the importance of upholding Tauhid and avoiding shirk. The verse warns against elevating anyone, including scholars, monks, or even prophets like Jesus, to a status equal to or above Allah. It underscores the exclusive right of Allah to be worshipped and obeyed without any partners.

honesttalk21:


Isn't the verse 9:31 further emphasying Tauhid?

No!
If it wasn't an error, it was saying that the Christians and Jews should take as Lord only Allah and the Messiah instead of their monks and Rabbis!

It actually reinforces the notion of the Christians that Allah is the Messiah .

Quran 5:17
They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things.

honesttalk21:


The verse in question, Quran 9:31, is as follows:

“They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.” (Quran 9:31)

This verse addresses the issue of shirk, which is the sin of associating partners with Allah in worship. In this context, it specifically mentions how some people have elevated their scholars and monks to a status similar to that of Allah, along with Jesus (Isa), the son of Maryam (Mary). The verse emphasizes the importance of Tawhid, which is the Islamic concept of monotheism and the belief in the oneness of Allah.

Tauhid is a fundamental concept in Islam that refers to the oneness of Allah in His lordship, names and attributes, and worship. It is the central theme of Islamic theology and belief. The concept of Tauhid encompasses the belief that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that He has no partners or associates. Muslims are required to worship Allah alone, without associating any partners with Him.

In interpreting Quran 9:31, we see the importance of upholding Tauhid and avoiding shirk. The verse warns against elevating anyone, including scholars, monks, or even prophets like Jesus, to a status equal to or above Allah. It underscores the exclusive right of Allah to be worshipped and obeyed without any partners.

Qur'an 9:31 doesn't say the above even if this is the position and doctrine of Islam. This had been my point.