thehomer:

Actually, what you show is that you're too ignorant about your God to make any reasonable deductions. What concrete, logical reasons do you have for disbelieving in the existence of Brahman?

why answer a question with another? Can you just answer the OP, and for once show us your intellectual weight? what evidence will change or cause a rethink of your atheistic postulations?

musKeeto:
Well, maybe Yahweh already planned for me to go to hell, cos for months before dropping Christianity, I studied the Bible, [b]asked him for answers and came up with nothing. [/b]If He has given you answers, I hold no grudges. He's our creator, right?

Really? You asked for answers. Implying that at one point in time, you believed that God exists and asked for answers? What does the bible teach about asking and hearing from God? what were your questions to God?

Martian: @Op,

Simple answer. Theophany that is repeatable in front of multitudes of people.

what if this contradicts his ontology, will and convictions?

noetic16:

Really? You asked for answers. Implying that at one point in time, you believed that God exists and asked for answers? What does the bible teach about asking and hearing from God? what were your questions to God?

Of course. You can check my first posts on NL. Moving to India was also a factor in my 'de-conversion'.

noetic16:
what if this contradicts his ontology, will and convictions?

Seriously? How exactly does this contradict his ontology, will or convictions?
If your god is the "god of israel", then theophany doesn't contradict his ontology.

"pillar of cloud" by day, "pillar of fire" at night.........

antartica: The sun in its majestic opulence gives us light and to the sun we owe our existence.If there is any god that deserves worship,it is the sun because as long as the sun shines,the plants will grow,the flowers will bloom,the rivers will flow,the oceans will roar,the body will warm amd life will thrive.

[size=15pt] The question u should be asking yourself is what must have inspired thousands of 'one time' atheists into renouncing atheism and going into christianity?
They surely must have encountered something amasing and extraordinary that must have changed their perception about God and life as a whole, but do you bother to hear and allow them share their experiences and testimonies?
You rather refute their claim and label it as scheme by religionists to spread their gospel.
I pray God will have mercy on you all and open your eyes the come to the realisation of this realities. [/size]

No, why is Faith needed?

Kay 17: No, why is Faith needed?

I wonder why you also need faith to believe in a process that has virtually no empirical evidence to support it. That requires greater faith than my belief in the existence of Noah's ark.

Martian:

Seriously? How exactly does this contradict his ontology, will or convictions?
If your god is the "god of israel", then theophany doesn't contradict his ontology.

"pillar of cloud" by day, "pillar of fire" at night.........

just before we proceed on this interesting turn . . . . it brings us to the question of liberty. Is God intelligent enough to decide whether or not to grant your wishes?

noetic16:
just before we proceed on this interesting turn . . . . it brings us to the question of liberty.Is God intelligent enough to decide whether or not to grant your wishes?

You didn't answer my question. How does theophany contradict the ontology, will or convictions of your god?

"why answer a question with another?"-Noetic16

noetic16:

why answer a question with another? Can you just answer the OP, and for once show us your intellectual weight? what evidence will change or cause a rethink of your atheistic postulations?

How could you have forgotten my response so soon? I already answered and you were whining as if the world had come to an end. Why don't you go back and re-read my answer? And note that the statement to which I was responding wasn't a question. Read your own statement carefully.

Martian: @Op,

Simple answer. Theophany that is repeatable in front of multitudes of people.

Lol, I wish I had seen this earlier.....

The problem is, If God showed Himself to you, would you recognize Him at all? or will you immediately say "there must be a scientific explanation for this!" and proceed to seek your elusive "scientific explanation" until the day you leave this world?

Martian:

You didn't answer my question. How does theophany contradict the ontology, will or convictions of your god?

"why answer a question with another?"-Noetic16

God appeared in these forms to aid the children of Israel, by His own discretion at His own will and time and for His own purpose. This implies that He has a mind of His own to make his own decisions. The implication is that, while God is capable of theophany (as we can see from the bible), appearing to you (martian) in such form may not be according to his will and purpose, perharps because you have been destined for HELL fire or (just assuming)or destined to be saved through another means. Hence, this appearance contradicts His will and ontology.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, I wish I had seen this earlier.....

The problem is, If God showed Himself to you, would you recognize Him at all? or will you immediately say "there must be a scientific explanation for this!" and proceed to seek your elusive "scientific explanation" until the day you leave this world?

Mr Anony, just leave it as that as a contract between him and "the God" you are trying to prove to him.
If there is a Supreme Being and he choose to manifest himself, i dont think you know better than that God how to convince people like Martian to believe in him.
At least he appeared to men in the bible and dispel all their doubts about him.
Dont try to make meaning of his appearance or justify his non-appearance, if you know what i mean.

cyrexx:

Mr Anony, just leave it as that as a contract between him and "the God" you are trying to prove to him.
If there is a Supreme Being and he choose to manifest himself, i dont think you know better than that God how to convince people like Martian to believe in him.
At least he appeared to men in the bible and dispel all their doubts about him.
Dont try to make meaning of his appearance or justify his non-appearance, if you know what i mean.

Lol, I am doing nothing of the sort, I believe Martian will be convicted of the Holy Spirit in God's time.
What Martian is demanding is unreasonable as it reduces God to some sort of mechanism that can be summoned at will, somewhat like a genie from a magic lamp.........but God is not subject to mans will.
What martian wants as proof for God cannot be God. What Martian wants is an idol.

Light relief from https://www.nairaland.com/744813/religion-section-funny-memorable-quotes#9009029

justcool:
. . . . I don’t have any scientific evidence that God exists; neither do you have any scientific evidence that God does not exist.. . . .

davidylan:

Neither does the atheist have any empirical evidence that God doesnt exist at all . . . infact the only argument the atheist has is that the theist has not provided God's home address to him.

MyJoe:

That won't do. They'd want to shake hands.

Now, how such can qualify to be God in anyone's view beats me.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, I am doing nothing of the sort, I believe Martian will be convicted of the Holy Spirit in God's time.
What Martian is demanding is unreasonable as it reduces God to some sort of mechanism that can be summoned at will, somewhat like a genie from a magic lamp.........but God is not subject to mans will.
What martian wants as proof for God cannot be God. What Martian wants is an idol.

You may not be aware that you talk as if you are the all-knowing (who knows better how to run things than those directly involved).

Funny, cos it reminds of the image of God created by the ancient Hebrews

LOL.

^^ Just like you think you know and understand Christianity and Christian doctrine better than those involved in it?

Enigma: ^^ Just like you think you know and understand Christianity and Christian doctrine better than those involved in it?

Hmmm, big bros

i was truly involved in Christianity and Christian doctrine for many many years, i mean the hardcore born-again evangelical Christianity, so i understand Christianity as any other true christian would.

Mr Anony on the other hand, understands beforehand if God refuses to manifest himself to prove his existence like he did in the bible. he even understands how an idol can override God's mission to manifest himself and prove himself to Martian.

you see the difference now, sir

Enigma: ^^ Just like you think you know and understand Christianity and Christian doctrine better than those involved in it?

perfect answer

Lmao Enigma thanks for that reminder from MyJoe; "They would like to shake hands" LOL

cyrexx:

Hmmm, big bros

i was truly involved in Christianity for many many years, i mean the hardcore born-again evangelical Christianity, so i understand Christianity as any other true christian would.

Mr Anony on the other hand, understands beforehand if God refuses to manifest himself to prove his existence like he did in the bible. he even understands how an idol can override God's mission to manifest himself and prove himself to Martian.

you see the difference now, sir

What??
I am not saying God won't prove Himself to Martian, in fact I am quite sure that God has already made Himself manifest to Martian but Martian chose not to recognize Him as God. Martian wants proof on his terms but God is not subject to Martian's terms. I believe, Martian will eventually come to know Christ.
If you really understood Christianity, you would've known exactly what I am talking about.

Mr_Anony:
What??
I am not saying God won't prove Himself to Martian, in fact I am quite sure that God has already made Himself manifest to Martian but Martian chose not to recognize Him as God. Martian wants proof on his terms but God is not subject to Martian's terms. I believe, Martian will eventually come to know Christ.
If you really understood Christianity, you would've known exactly what I am talking about.

OK, lets just leave it as that since all that can be said has been said on this issue.


but, by the way, i understand Christianity very well, just exactly like a very devoted ex-muslim Christian understand Islam very well.
but thats the talk for another time.

cheers

cyrexx:

OK, lets just leave it as that since all that can be said has been said on this issue.


but, by the way, i understand Christianity very well, just exactly like a very devoted ex-muslim Christian understand Islam very well.
but thats the talk for another time.

cheers

Fair enough

cyrexx:

Hmmm, big bros

i was truly involved in Christianity and Christian doctrine for many many years, i mean the hardcore born-again evangelical Christianity, so i understand Christianity as any other true christian would.

Mr Anony on the other hand, understands beforehand if God refuses to manifest himself to prove his existence like he did in the bible. he even understands how an idol can override God's mission to manifest himself and prove himself to Martian.

you see the difference now, sir

@cyrexx

I want to make a point regarding the bolded and also seeing you once saying you were defrauded through "tithing" and also made to be scared through teachings on "hell". In addition, I bear in mind that you were part of the prevalent form of 'Christianity' in Nigeria i.e. the Prosperity "Gospel".

First, a general point (granted a little sweeping) about aspirational (Southern) Nigerians. They are generally swayed by what is fashionable (e.g. Cele church was once 'reigning', now it is "born again" ); they rush into anything they think will bring/lead to money, wealth, fame etc (as with wonder banks etc) and thus many people are attracted to the Prosperity "Gospel" because of its promises of health and wealth etc and some because it gives openings for business and social contacts etc. There is of course also the self-assuring comfort of being "spiritual" even though and perhaps especially because often the material is being turned and reinterpreted to be spiritual. A specific example - Jesus and the Bible say one's focus should not be on material wealth; the Prosperity "gospel" reinterpretes the Bible to make "material wealth" to be spiritual.

Now this is the consequence: when people go into "Christianity" or rather the Prosperity "Gospel" for these wrong reasons of follow-follow and motives of material benefits, they are often robbed of the glorious truths and the surpassing peace of the Christian message as taught by Jesus Christ and the apostles. For example, if you understand Jesus' teachings about love you will not serve God because of the fear of 'hell' (at least not for yourself, whilst for others e.g. apparent "non-Christians", you will trust God to do right); if you understand Jesus' teaching about materialism, you will realise that as a Christian you can have inner peace and joy without material riches even as you are not prohibited from harnessing your talents, skills and opportunities to acquire material things.

Now this is where I am going: when some people who got carried away by the Prosperity "gospel" for the wrong reaons of follow-follow and materialistic motives, discover that the prosperity "gospel" is full of largely empty promises, they feel cheated; they feel they have been robbed/defrauded through "tithing" for example (I've seen this among both Nigerian and UK based followers of the [Nigerian] prosperity "gospel" ) ----- and in many cases, they turn against a God that they never really understood or knew properly ---- since what they knew and understood was a caricature.

Now to be fair, I have a grouse with the prosperity "gospel" particularly but it is also true that to various extents Christians in general do not present or represent God well or accurately and no doubt this contributes in some part to scepticism. Nevertheless the overriding point is for YOU by yourself and your own endeavour in humility to ask God to reveal Himself to you rather than relying on other people (be they theist or atheist) to do your thinking for you as seems to be the case with you presently, in my view.

Peace.

^^^

BUT Prosperity Gospel is still Christianity. It is still their view on Jesus' teachings.

^^^ Just as Stalin, Mao etc etc demonstrated the consequences of their atheism? Cool.

That's the thing about atheism, it ONLY describes a lack of belief in supernatural gods. Ethical codes, behaviour etc are covered by the individual's philosophy.

Enigma: ^^^ Just as Stalin, Mao etc etc demonstrated the consequences of their atheism? Cool.

+1

Kay 17: That's the thing about atheism, it ONLY describes a lack of belief in supernatural gods. Ethical codes, behaviour etc are covered by the individual's philosophy.

That is also the problem of atheism. When you remove your basis for morality and replace it with nothing, you can do anything no matter how hideous.
Did you know that Chairman Mao's slogan was "religion is poison"?

The basis of morality is left to the individual not left to nothing.

Kay 17: That's the thing about atheism, it ONLY describes a lack of belief in supernatural gods. Ethical codes, behaviour etc are covered by the individual's philosophy.

the problem with your own brand of atheism is the deception and self delusion it makes you wallow in. Many of you hide under the banner of "it only describes a lack of belief" to shy away from the fact that many of the world's most brutal dictators today where ATHEISTS.

See i know... its kinda tough for atheists but its quite funny that atheists are quick to tag ALL christians with the deviants among us as representative of christianity as a whole while trying to dodge the EXACT SAME extrapolation when it comes to Mao and co with some artful dodging.