@ jesoul
Easther's beauty treatment was to meet-up with the standard of a heathen king.
That is the world standard.

Moyola:

What does it mean to be Born Again?

Wasn't Jezebel the only woman said to have used make-up n all. . .?

Well. . . as stated above, there's nothing alarming if it's worn in moderation. . . .not d'em 'ojuju' stlye

Did Jezebel not also arranged her hair? so you should leave your hair unkept since Jezebel has made it a sin 
The point was about her trying to seduce Jehu and not about wearing makeup or combing of hair.

kwekwe:

@ jesoul
Easther's beauty treatment was to meet-up with the standard of a heathen king.
That is the world standard.

and God was displeased with her?

Better still, why stop at makeup, why dont we just walk around stark naked since we wear clothes to meet the world standard? Moreso we were born naked and the Bible does not command us to wear clothes. Adam and Eve were made naked and were aware because of their transgression. A 'true' Christian should not be ashamed of their nudity and should walk around bare!

@Biina: Abi o! Shebi God killed an animal in Genesis 3 and used its fur to cover them? So are we not wearing just animal skin today?

@Davidylan: « #82 on: December 15, 2009, 10:44 PM »

I dont read where it says a christian woman cannot look beautiful, i dont see were the bible says she shld not wear pants or paint her nails or adorn her hair . . . if you wish to marry a deeperlife wife pls go ahead but dont use the bible to support your personal decision. Me i would love to have a woman i can be proud of anywhere.
My 2 kobo

Please make your 2 kobo not make you proud enough that you will loose the focus of what marriage is; between the man and woman and showing the puppies or the badboys, flunting the family jewels to everyone along the way, out there, and not reserving them for you alone, is like a chancy dey situation, except you are the one who is invited to the party and the only one accepted to pay.

You can lose the the wife just as quickly as you get her, or when another davidylan with some kinda edgy attitude to him comes along.

biina:

Did Jezebel not also arranged her hair? so you should leave your hair unkept since Jezebel has made it a sin 
The point was about her trying to seduce Jehu and not about wearing makeup or combing of hair.
and God was displeased with her?

Hey! ain sayin itz a sin to make-up. . . jee-hez!!

Where's my brother Image eh? 
And Tensor777, I see you've refused to touch Beauty Queen Esther with a ten foot pole.

A_K_O:

1 Tim 2: I also want women to dress modestly, with decency [/b]and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes.

[b]'Modesty', 'decency', etc are constructed, subjective and culture-specific terms.
We should think about that before attempting to legislate what women everywhere can or cannot wear.

Infact you could not have nailed it any better.

JeSoul my sista
Why look ye for the living among the dead?
I answered your question. We're not in a law court where we're looking for evidence5C, exhibit 42 to gold against me. Re-read me post. If yor sincerely see that I didn't answer yor, say it again. Then, I'll know your're either lying or sincere. I'll answer again.
Wetin consign me with Esther now? I'm talking 1Timothy 2v9. Later we fit talk Esther with 2mm pole.

Image123:

JeSoul my sista
Why look ye for the living among the dead?

  Lol . . . then why where you here in the first place eh? 

I answered your question. We're not in a law court where we're looking for evidence5C, exhibit 42 to gold against me. Re-read me post. If yor sincerely see that I didn't answer yor, say it again. Then, I'll know your're either lying or sincere. I'll answer again.
Wetin consign me with Esther now? I'm talking 1Timothy 2v9. Later we fit talk Esther with 2mm pole.

Nah I'm not being mischeivious at all.
I asked again because you really simply re-quoted 1 Tim, I am seeking your personal answer to this:

JeSoul:
Can women braid their hair, wear expensive clothes, gold and pearls or not? A yes or no will more than suffice. This is what 1 Tim says ain't it? Gracias  .

   It is yes or no? or sort-of? Gracias senor.

Esther is the poster girl right now for this discussion as it is apparent she was more than guilty of commiting the sin of wearing make-up, painting, and adorning herself with lavish clothing and jewelry, yet God blessed and used her.

Lol at Esther the poster girl. I wanna be a poster girl too! Me, me, me! Lol. Sigh. Too bad i would need makeup before the photography for the media poster. Sigh. And this court has not resolved the matter. Just kidding, but i gotta love this JeSoul girl.

Ok JeSoul,
My answer was and is that I'm taking 1Timothy 2v9 at its value, not face value. I totally agree with 1Timothy2v9. Now, go on the braids search. Is it the same thing with what we generally refer to as braids or plaits?
Leave the poster girl out of this, at least for now. Let's deal with 1Timothy first.
@all
Do words like meat, bread, flight, braid/broided/plait really mean exactly what they meant or were referred to in NT times? I'm not here to win an arguement, I'm just sincerely looking at 1Timothy2. Of course, I may be wrong, but you've got to prove that with points not sentiment, or what we've always being taught.

1 Tim 2 expressed Paul's view and advice on issues.

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

The do's and don'ts were to guide to the good deeds.

@biina
So why are we not following this 'guide to good deeds'?

Image123:

@biina
So why are we not following this 'guide to good deeds'?

The evidence of if you are following the guide (or otherwise) is in the resultant good deeds. If you feel you 'dress modestly, with decency and propriety', but fail to achieve the good deeds, then you need to reevaluate your position and make corrections accordingly. Increased concern with your physical appearance (as that is what braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes address) will likely make  it more difficult for you to attain good deeds, and vice versa.

Its like a simple control system, you check the current output against the desired output, and if there is a difference/error, you make adjustments to the input that will reduce the error and thus bring the outputs in harmony. You do not check the input so see if there is error in the output, cos different systems (i.e. people) will give different output even though given the same input. If you are producing the right outputs, then you dont need to change the inputs, but if your output is unsatisfactory, you should check your inputs.

No matter how plain you present yourself, it is pointless if you are not producing the 'good deeds'. Each person has to judge for themselves if they are producing 'good deed' outputs

Biina: Gbam! Bravo!! I like people who express opinions without too much verbosity like I often do! By the way, control systems was my favourite subject in school. Are you also an engineer?

The Bible should be the standard, not each person judging for themselves. There's no point feeling you do well, when you can know in line with God's Word if you do well.

Image123:

The Bible should be the standard, not each person judging for themselves. There's no point feeling you do well, when you can know in line with God's Word if you do well.

The bible does set the standard, but it is only God and the individual that can determine truthfully, how far/close they are from/to that standard. Most often than not, we know where we stand deep in our hearts. The first time a child lies, it is not by the instruction of another. He simply decides within himself not to tell the truth (his reasons being secondary). Adam and eve ate the tree of knowledge, and thus within our hearts we can distinguish between good and evil. The problem is being able to choose correctly consistently.

In this case the standard is to be clothed with good deeds, but you cannot say being plainly dressed guarantees that one is clothed with good deeds, nor being expensively dressed makes certain that the person is not; the problem being that plainly, expensively, rich, poor, tall, short, etc are relative measures. Thus if asked what is plain or expensive, each would likely come up with his own definition.

The focus should be on the good deeds and not the dressing. The instructions as regards the dressing is to guide one towards the good deeds. If your deeds are not as expected, you should move more towards the plain side. Please note that it is not only the physical appearance per se that dictates the good deeds, but wherein your heart lies i.e. who is in charge: your saved soul or your unsaved flesh. The physical clothing just serves as another way of influencing who is in charge. Another example being fasting, as hunger is a need of the flesh, but by fasting i.e. denying what the flesh wants (and needs), we are subjecting the body to the will of the soul.

biina:

The bible does set the standard, but it is only God and the individual that can determine truthfully, how far/close they are from/to that standard. Most often than not, we know where we stand deep in our hearts. The first time a child lies, it is not by the instruction of another. He simply decides within himself not to tell the truth (his reasons being secondary). Adam and eve ate the tree of knowledge, and thus within our hearts we can distinguish between good and evil. The problem is being able to choose correctly consistently.

In this case the standard is to be clothed with good deeds, but you cannot say being plainly dressed guarantees that one is clothed with good deeds, nor being expensively dressed makes certain that the person is not; the problem being that plainly, expensively, rich, poor, tall, short, etc are relative measures. Thus if asked what is plain or expensive, each would likely come up with his own definition.

The focus should be on the good deeds and not the dressing. The instructions as regards the dressing is to guide one towards the good deeds. If your deeds are not as expected, you should move more towards the plain side. Please note that it is not only the physical appearance per se that dictates the good deeds, but wherein your heart lies i.e. who is in charge: your saved soul or your unsaved flesh. The physical clothing just serves as another way of influencing who is in charge. Another example being fasting, as hunger is a need of the flesh, but by fasting i.e. denying what the flesh wants (and needs), we are subjecting the body to the will of the soul.

Even though the Holy Bible specifically advises women to adopt modest dressing

Ndipe:

Even though the Holy Bible specifically advises women to adopt modest dressing

can you then answer (unequivocally) the question of what is modest and what is not?

Secondly, you can address the issue of if men should be concerned about their dressing?

biina,
I beg to disagree that most often, we know where we stand deep in our hearts. No, I think most often. We're very poor judges. We might feel/think we're doing great OR we might feel we've not done well, proly due to circumstances we face. But until we look into the perfect law of liberty(the Word), that's what tells us where we stand by the Spirit of God. The Word is the standard and God stands by it. You can't be wrong if you follow the standard by faith.
Coming more closely to our discuss, the standard is not just to be clothed with good works from 1Timothy2, but also shamefacedness, sobriety, modest apparel NOT WITH braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array. We should consider the whole standard, not only verse10.

Why come up with the excuse of what our obedience to God's Word doesn't guarantee. Does going to church, or even praying guarantee our living right or getting to heaven? Do we then say, since it doesn't guarantee, then no more prayer no more going to church. I think we obey God's Words because we love Him, not because it makes us look better before God.

@Image123
The bible says we know the difference between right and wrong. What you are referring to is our attempts at justifying the wrong doing, but then that a whole different topic.

On topic, please then answer
- what is a modest apparel?
- what is decency and propriety?
- can I wear cheap jewelery?
- is silver acceptable? or platinum or stainless steel
- diamonds or fake stones?
- are traditional beads acceptable?
- can I perm my hair?
- what about wearing wigs?
- how much is expensive? NGN10, NGN100, NGN1000, NGN10,0000 ?
- and of course what is the standard for the men or are men free to dress as they please?

You talk about praying and going to church, praying  is different as it is spiritual whereas the topic at hand is regards to the physical.
If we make no assumptions about the 'church' , is in not possible to have a church that is inimical to spiritual development?
If yes, do you then continue to attend the church simply because it is a called a church?
Do you not evaluate a church by its works?

The definition of how to dress physically should be measured in the resultant works.

I'm tempted to ask where are the others JeSoul and co. Its funny though. She'd earlier asked. I wouldn't want us going back and forth. I asked JeSoul similar questions. You look into your dictionary, some of these things are explained. i.e shamefacedness and sobriety as opposed to gold, pearls and costly array. The only place where I expect issues is in the area of modesty. Modesty might be argued to be relative, just as giving may be argued to be relative. The arguements are strong, but it should be relative to God's Word as well. It doesn't call for rocket science to know stingy and generous even though giving is relative. You'll know modesty when you see it however relative.
But gold, pearls, shamefacedness, sobriety aren't relative. People just disobey because they want to. Who says praying is spiritual while clothing is physical. The Word of God is spirit and life. I've seen some appearance more spiritual than some carnal praying. God considers the inside and outside.Who am I to fiddle with the outside?

Sobriety is defined as the quality or state of being sober. Does that mean a christian should never take morphine?
Shamefacedness means to be extremely modest or shy; bashful. So we are back with to the definition of modesty.
You make reference to Gold and pearls, and I asked if Silver and beads are acceptable?
You are also yet to answer at what price an item is deemed costly?
It does require 'rocket science' to see that the widow's two mites is more than the Rich man's abundance. If one followed your suggestion, the rich people, whose donations were physically more valuable, gave more.

Prayer is purely spiritual, as it is communication from your soul. It can be done without any physical action. How loudly you shout does not make your prayers any louder in God's ears. Depending on the individual, you might act physically (like closing your eyes) to help you concentrate, but closing your eyes is not the prayer and how you act physically doesn't make one prayer more acceptable than another.

The word of God acts on your soul and transforms you from the inside out, and not outside in. Being preoccupied with the physical actions was one of the shortcomings of the Pharisees, or do you not remember the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector? The pharisee did all the right physical actions but his heart was in the wrong place, while the tax collector had his in the right place.

You are modest to the extent that your heart is modest, and not if you dont wear jewelery. One can argue that one whose heart is in the right place will not be spending money on certain items when others around him/her are in need, but you cannot say that anyone that does not wear expensive items is definitely taking care of the needy. Focus should be on the output and not the input.

I'll still maintain that I've seen some appearance more spiritual than some carnal praying. Visible obedience to God's Word doesn't necessarily translate to preoccupation of outside, or a growth from outside to inside. I've not suggested that. As important as it is that our hearts/inside be right with God, I still hold that our outside can also be right with God. It doesn't need be a preoccupation. It just takes simple obedience, a work perfected inside and demonstrated outside.

biina:

1 Tim 2 expressed Paul's view and advice on issues.

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

The do's and don'ts were to guide to the good deeds.

1 Samuel 15:22
To obey is better than sacrifice and to hearken than the fat of rams

Now biina, why have I asked for the meanings of shamefacedness and sobriety. I do have a dico, I know the meaning. But my point is that our generation has lost the meaning. The verse itself v9 is lost. We think on other things.
Normally, people would adorn i.e decorate themselves with broided hair, gold, pearls and costly array. It's evident in the world, in society, even amongst us. But v9 clearly says christians should NOT decorate themselves with these things but decorate/adorn themselves with the EXACT opposite shamefacedness(EXTREMELY modest, shy, embarrassed, bashful) and sobriety(serious, plain, NOT bright). Sorry I rarely see this qualities 2day. I do not say 'hey you're going to hell wearing what'. I'm saying we're found wanting in these verses.
The boldness of costly array, gold and pearls has being embraced ahead of sobriety and shamefacedness that are expected to decorate us.

I am not saying that you should disregard entirely what the passage says, but that one should not get caught up in the literal interpretation of the words used.
Like I said before, if your thoughts and thus your resources are dedicated mainly towards your physical appearance, then it is doubtful that your deeds would be as desired, and if your focus is on not braiding your hair, not wearing gold  or whatever you deem expensive, it is all for nothing if your heart and your deeds are not as should be.
Of course there are the extreme cases, that even a blind man can judge. For example, there are some clothes that are less for comfort and more for seduction. One who wears such cannot claim modesty, when all that she is suppose to be shy about is boldly displayed.

Fine biina, so we agree on the literal meaning of the passage. What a relief. But what stops us from obeying, seeing that the doers of the Word are the Blessed from James 1v 25. I believe we can actually obey without making it a focus or sort of dedication.

We have to go back to the topic of the thread, which I feel is an example of being focused on the literal interpretations of the words.
I doubt anybody would argue that a christian should be humble, modest, etc in not just appearance ,but in everything we do.
Most would also say that they are modest, while some would say anyone that wears gold or braids their hair etc are not modest. I say you should look at your/their deeds to find the truth, not the appearance.

I say we should present our bodies as a living sacrifice and RENEW our minds by the Word of God, not drawing back because of the misplaced focus of others.
I still believe we should be fair in our judgements and look at every part, not just one part. May God's Spirit glorify Christ.

Jesoul is here brother Image, she is right here  .

Image123:

Ok JeSoul,
My answer was and is that I'm taking 1Timothy 2v9 at its value, not face value. I totally agree with 1Timothy2v9. Now, go on the braids search. Is it the same thing with what we generally refer to as braids or plaits?
Leave the poster girl out of this, at least for now. Let's deal with 1Timothy first.
@all
Do words like meat, bread, flight, braid/broided/plait really mean exactly what they meant or were referred to in NT times? I'm not here to win an arguement, I'm just sincerely looking at 1Timothy2. Of course, I may be wrong, but you've got to prove that with points not sentiment, or what we've always being taught.

  Honestly, you still have not answered my question brother. I also believe 100% in 1Tim 2 but I specifically asked you this and solicited either a YES or NO response from you which you have not put forth.

Can women braid their hair, wear expensive clothes, gold and pearls or not?

[b]Yes or No? to one or to all? -->[/b]the braids, expensive clothes, gold and pearls?
I promise to indulge your question fully once you respond unequivocally. Thanks.