Abagworo:


I'm Igbo and I believe Igbos are of the same stock as some Congolese and Zambian groups. Even though most Igbos disagree with that link, our phenotype and language similarities with Zambians, Ugandans and Congolese points to an earlier contact.

It is plausible that the igbo of Nigeria are early migrants from central Africa, however if you take genotype and language into consideration, they would group more with kwa speakers to the West of Africa including the Igala and Idoma as Benue-Congo speakers than the more Bantu speakers in the cameroon, gabon and the congo pointing to an early split from those groups.

As far as phenotype, well if we consider that then there would be a consistent flow of similar phenotypes from the congo to the Igbo with groups inbetween exhibiting similar phenotypes. There isn't as you can find many groups inbetweeen that are very different in look.

....Bruddah Shymexx......I think that Map is Pointing to Northern Cameroon....

Check this Video out.




It seems Chadic Speakers and Northern Cameroon Hold R1B Markers

.....It seems the Ibos are off the Hook........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0weSbf0TsZ0 <------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b



[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG/800px-Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG[/img]

I looked it up, the R1b-V88 is like a thousand years removed from the R1B in Europe.So, some Igbo and some European are just cousins, not close cousins, probably like 20 or 30 cousins apart not enough to be called Europeans, also the R1B-V88 in northern Nigeria and some parts in IgboLand are more ancient then the r1b in Europe, so, saying that the Igbo's are Europeans is like saying that Abraham is a decendant of Jacob. Both are silly, very silly.

Patsey:
It would have been noted that apart from the Fulani people (many of who have skin colour resembling those of the Arabs), some Bini and Igbo people are light skinned. Why is this? I am proposing that in 1515 when Capuchin monks from Portugal made the first (but failed) attempt at evangelising Nigeria, these monks who operated mainly in the Bini Kingdom bleeped several Bini women whose offspring intermarried with the Delta-Igbos. These also intermarried with the Igbos, east of the Niger, and so on and so forth. Bla bla bla!

Frankly speaking, if you're light-skinned Bini or Igbo, go for blood test, you could qualify for Portuguese citizenship. lol.

has any one taken up this offer.

Fireflame144000:


I looked it up, the R1b-V88 is like a thousand years removed from the R1B in Europe.So, some Igbo and some European are just cousins, not close cousins, probably like 20 or 30 cousins apart not enough to be called Europeans, also the R1B-V88 in northern Nigeria and some parts in IgboLand are more ancient then the r1b in Europe, so, saying that the Igbo's are Europeans is like saying that Abraham is a decendant of Jacob. Both are silly, very silly.

Do we have R1b in Igboland?

Ihuomadinihu:

Do we have R1b in Igboland?

Yes, we have R1b-v88 in IgboLand, but it's only like 2%-10% and there is probably only 15 million Igbo's in IgboLand? So, probably 1.5 million Igbo have it. The rest of the Igbo have E1b1a, and a little bit of E1b1b. And they also probably have a low amount of Igbo that may have a different sub clan of R1B. 50-55% of Igbo have E1b1a, while the rest is just a mystery.

Fireflame144000:



Yes, we have R1b-v88 in IgboLand, but it's only like 2%-10% and there is probably only 15 million Igbo's in IgboLand? So, probably 1.5 million Igbo have it. The rest of the Igbo have E1b1a, and a little bit of E1b1b. And they also probably have a low amount of Igbo that may have a different sub clan of R1B. 50-55% of Igbo have E1b1a, while the rest is just a mystery.

Oh,thanks. I wasn't aware of that.
Anyway,E1b1b is a North/East African dna group and closely linked to Afroasiatic people/languages. This R1b sounds strange to me,am gonna make some researches on it.
What is it all about?

Ihuomadinihu:

Oh,thanks. I wasn't aware of that.
Anyway,E1b1b is a North/East African dna group and closely linked to Afroasiatic people/languages. This R1b sounds strange to me,am gonna make some researches on it.
What is it all about?

I heard that R1b-v88 was a result of a back-to-Africa migration which is why people are fascinated about it, like how many Haplogroup s goes BACK to Africa? And WHY? Did they do it?Also, when the R1b went back to Africa, they moved out of Africa again and the second time they moved out was said to be around the time of the exodus. 95% of men from northern Cameroon/northern Nigeria has the R1b-v88. R1b-v88 also went to Europe and broke into the modern r1b and R1a, which is why Nigerians are NOT Europeans. The Europeans are Nigerians! Big difference.

Ihuomadinihu:

Oh,thanks. I wasn't aware of that.
Anyway,E1b1b is a North/East African dna group and closely linked to Afroasiatic people/languages. This R1b sounds strange to me,am gonna make some researches on it.
What is it all about?

Also, some say that the R1b-v88 in west Africa are decendants of Moses through Moses's Ethiopian wife, while the one in Levant are decendants of Moses through Moses's Midianite wife.

Fireflame144000:


I heard that R1b-v88 was a result of a back-to-Africa migration which is why people are fascinated about it, like how many Haplogroup s goes BACK to Africa? And WHY? Did they do it?Also, when the R1b went back to Africa, they moved out of Africa again and the second time they moved out was said to be around the time of the exodus. 95% of men from northern Cameroon/northern Nigeria has the R1b-v88. R1b-v88 also went to Europe and broke into the modern r1b and R1a, which is why Nigerians are NOT Europeans. The Europeans are Nigerians! Big difference.

Yeah,that's for the people linking Europeans and Igbos. African haplogroups(A,B,CD,E) were here before any European,all non African gene can be traced back to Africa. Any account of back migration should be investigated though. I feel historians should focus on cultural diffusion between different African regions. The most popular assumption is that West Africa had no contact with other Africans. That's a big lie! And even if 10 or Twenty Europeans/arab/asian genes penetrated igboland,it's not strong enough to corrupt the Igbo genes.

Most Bini people are dark skinned, so I don't know what the OP is insinuating here. The Esans and Etaskos on the other hand have quite a few fair skinned people in their respective population s.

Ihuomadinihu:

Yeah,that's for the people linking Europeans and Igbos. African haplogroups(A,B,CD,E) were here before any European,all non African gene can be traced back to Africa. Any account of back migration should be investigated though. I feel historians should focus on cultural diffusion between different African regions. The most popular assumption is that West Africa had no contact with other Africans. That's a big lie! And even if 10 or Twenty Europeans/arab/asian genes

penetrated igboland,it's not strong enough to corrupt the Igbo genes.

Exactly!

.

tpiander:

has any one taken up this offer.

If a majority of Igbo do take DNA tests, it will not show European Haplo groups. African genotype is a much earlier version of other genotypes hence the ability to trace older Haplo groups back to Africa.

It should be noted also that these would lend crendence to the opinion that African haplogroups have the ability to generate much larger variants of skin color without the inclusion of out of Africa genes.

A consistency of lighter people within a population group need not be as a result of "Out of Africa" gene intrusion but could be linked to sexual selection practices( if this particular phenotype is culturally desirable within the group), Diet that also affects production of melanin or a retention of the particular gene that is involved in the quantity of melanin produced.

Fireflame144000:

I heard that R1b-v88 was a result of a back-to-Africa migration which is why people are fascinated about it, like how many Haplogroup s goes BACK to Africa? And WHY? Did they do it?Also, when the R1b went back to Africa, they moved out of Africa again and the second time they moved out was said to be around the time of the exodus. 95% of men from northern Cameroon/northern Nigeria has the R1b-v88. R1b-v88 also went to Europe and broke into the modern r1b and R1a, which is why Nigerians are NOT Europeans. The Europeans are Nigerians! Big difference.

Where do you get the 95% of Northern Nigerians carrying the R1b-v88 haplogroup?

Yes, a study shows back migration and some papers state the Haplogroups origins in the Iberian peninsula (Mostly Spain), a movement through the Meditereanean, to the levant and back into Africa then again back out of Africa into Europe

You need to realize that the Sahara was actually once Greenland and people inhabited those regions. It would have been plausible for movements to take place btw the Iberian peninsula and North Africa carrying this Haplo group to the levant as well.

The desertification of the Sahara obviously pushed peoples different directions within Africa, some of these carriers would have headed southwards to central Africa and to areas in West Africa today, Others would have head out of Africa as well. It is therefore not incomprehensible that migrations in and out of Africa would cause earlier variants of The R1b to exist within Africa.



As far as the Igbo are concerned, it is more likely this group are an earlier break way from Proto-bantu speakers from central Africa. Waves of migrations from central Africa would have preceded that of the Igbo as well. There is a phenotypical consistency of Central to West Africans as you move West. The differences become more apparent as you move deeper into West Africa till you get to Senegal.

morpheus24:


Where do you get the 95% of Northern Nigerians carrying the R1b-v88 haplogroup?

Yes, a study shows back migration and some papers state the Haplogroups origins in the Iberian peninsula (Mostly Spain), a movement through the Meditereanean, to the levant and back into Africa then again back out of Africa into Europe

You need to realize that the Sahara was actually once Greenland and people inhabited those regions. It would have been plausible for movements to take place btw the Iberian peninsula and North Africa carrying this Haplo group to the levant as well.

The desertification of the Sahara obviously pushed peoples different directions within Africa, some of these carriers would have headed southwards to central Africa and to areas in West Africa today, Others would have head out of Africa as well. It is therefore not incomprehensible that migrations in and out of Africa would cause earlier variants of The R1b to exist within Africa.



As far as the Igbo are concerned, it is more likely this group are an earlier break way from Proto-bantu speakers from central Africa. Waves of migrations from central Africa would have preceded that of the Igbo as well. There is a phenotypical consistency of Central to West Africans as you move West. The differences become more apparent as you move deeper into West Africa till you get to Senegal.

So in other words,Igbos migrated from Central Africa?

Ihuomadinihu:

So in other words,Igbos migrated from Central Africa?

That is plausible but not definitive since the Igbo language is categorized under what is refered to as "kwa speakers" who are not prevalent in Central Africa.

Yorubas, Igala, Idoma could also be earlier waves from central Africa as well.

morpheus24:


That is plausible but not definitive since the Igbo language is categorized under what is refered to as "kwa speakers" who are not prevalent in Central Africa.

Yorubas, Igala, Idoma could also be earlier waves from central Africa as well.

That's a new one. Ancient artifacts in West Africa predate Central African artifacts. Bantu speakers broke away from Cameroon/igbo homeland,not the other way round.

Ihuomadinihu:

That's a new one. Ancient artifacts in West Africa predate Central African artifacts.

The oldest cultures I know of within what is known as Nigeria today are the NOK.

Staying Within the geography of Nigeria and its ethnic groups, can you direct me to these West African cultures that predate Central African cultures?

morpheus24:



The oldest cultures I know of within what is known as Nigeria today are the NOK.

Staying Within the geography of Nigeria and its ethnic groups, can you direct me to these West African cultures that predate Central African cultures?

Am not talking about cultures but artifacts reflective of people within West Africa. What ancient central African cultures do you have in mind? Trying to correct your impression that Igbos broke away from Bantus. Bantus came from Cameroon/Igbo region.

Ihuomadinihu:

Am not talking about cultures but artifacts reflective of people within West Africa. What ancient central African cultures do you have in mind? Trying to correct your impression that Igbos broke away from Bantus. Bantus came from Cameroon/Igbo region.

The argument does not state that West Africa "proper" would not have older artifacts in comparison to Central Africa. The argument states that within the geographical area known as Nigeria, what artifacts/culture can be dated past those produced under the NOK cultures to support the notion that Igbos or any other known ethnic group were in this region and did not migrate from North or central to West( Taking into consideration the migratory patterns humans would take as the Sahara turned to desert).

Linguistic distributions in Africa are a strong indicator of migratory patterns and groups within the Niger-Congo classification would most likely have taken a central to West migratory pattern as compared to Chadic, Sudanic or Afro Asiatic speakers who would have taken a more Northern, North central route through the Sahel-Savannah into WEST AFRICA.

Igbos, therefore would mostly likely have been a wave of speakers coming from Proto-Bantu speakers moving from Central Africa

morpheus24:


The argument does not state that West Africa "proper" would not have older artifacts in comparison to Central Africa. The argument states that within the geographical area known as Nigeria, what artifacts/culture can be dated past those produced under the NOK cultures to support the notion that Igbos or any other known ethnic group were in this region and did not migrate from North or central to West( Taking into consideration the migratory patterns humans would take as the Sahara turned to desert).

Linguistic distributions in Africa are a strong indicator of migratory patterns and groups within the Niger-Congo classification would most likely have taken a central to West migratory pattern as compared to Chadic, Sudanic or Afro Asiatic speakers who would have taken a more Northern route through the Sahel-Savannah into WEST AFRICA.

Igbos, therefore would mostly likely have been a wave of speakers coming from Proto-Bantu speakers moving from Central Africa

Bantus expanded from Nigeria/Cameroon into Central Africa. And this only occured 3,000yrs ago.

Ihuomadinihu:

Bantus expanded from Nigeria/Cameroon into Central Africa. And this only occured 3,000yrs ago.

1. Hence the use of the word "PROTO" in Proto-bantu speakers to depict the movement

2. If they were descended from proto-bantu speakers they would have diverged from this "proto" bantu group(early Niger Congo speakers) who originated somewhere central of Africa and obviously moved Westwards similar to other waves of Niger-Congo speakers in WEST AFRICA and not East or Southwards as the "BANTU" groups did.

morpheus24:


1. Hence the use of the word "PROTO" in Proto-bantu speakers to depict the movement

2. If they were descended from proto-bantu speakers they would have diverged from this "proto" bantu group(early Niger Congo speakers) who originated somewhere central of Africa and obviously moved Westwards similar to other waves of Niger-Congo speakers in WEST AFRICA and not East or Southwards as the "BANTU" groups did.

You are getting everything all muddled up.
What makes you think that West Africa is not the original home of Proto bantu speakers? Proto bantu dispered from West Africa not the other way round. Igbo,Yoruba,Idoma have been associated with the Niger basin area not Central Africa.

This is a more valid explanation. www.nairaland.com/1573374/early-history-niger-congo-speakers-igbo

Ihuomadinihu:
This is a more valid explanation.
www.nairaland.com/1573374/early-history-niger-congo-speakers-igbo

The pasted thread actually validates my point.

1. It mentions the desertification of the Sahara

2. It also acknowledges the North-central flow of humans into West Africa.

For purposes of this argument. Southern Chad, Southern Sudan, Central republic of Africa are considered parts of "Central Africa".

Ihuomadinihu:
This is a more valid explanation.
www.nairaland.com/1573374/early-history-niger-congo-speakers-igbo

In other words I doubt these proto bantu speakers moved North West wards all the way through what is Niger, through Northern Nigeria down southwards into Igbo land, that is if linguistics is taken in correlation.

morpheus24:


In other words I doubt these proto bantu speakers moved North West wards all the way through what is Niger, through Northern Nigeria down southwards into Igbo land, that is if linguistics is taken into in correlation.

The pasted thread doesn't have anything to do with Central Africa. I would propose a northern migration pattern not this central Africa stuff you are trying to push.
By the way,proto bantu is just a subgroup of Niger congo languages. It does not represent speakers of all Niger congo languages.

Ihuomadinihu:

The pasted thread doesn't have anything to do with Central Africa. I would propose a northern migration pattern not this central Africa stuff you are trying to push.

Lets see now, if the Sahara was an oasis before its desertification, this would mean that the migratory patterns followed a strict North to south "Route" moving people into savannah and sahel regions before moving into the more rainforest areas in West Africa.

Seeing that the Sahara stretches all the way to the Eastern end of Africa. This would mean that populations would be pressured to move not only North-West wards but towards Southern Sudan, Southern Chad, Central African Republic.

Therefore again, if Linguistic patterns are taken into consideration it would show that Niger-Congo speakers most likely took a route originating from Central Africa into the Southern regions of West Africa. There is no history that I am aware of that shows these Southern groups in West Africa were pushed out of the sahel-savannah regions.

Again, for purposes of these argument, SOuthern Chad, Central African republic and South Sudan are considered "Central Africa"

Ihuomadinihu:

The pasted thread doesn't have anything to do with Central Africa. I would propose a northern migration pattern not this central Africa stuff you are trying to push.

excerps

"Basically, here it says the Niger-Congo speakers (also called Niger-Kordofanian) had their origin in the far east around the Nuba Mountains in Sudan (Kordofan region) and that they then spread to as far west as Mali in West Africa for their first expansion. It can also be noted that the E-M2 (E1b1a) haplogroup also is said to have its origin in the same approximate region. An haplogroup widespread among Niger-Congo speakers along with other haplogroups.

So basically, Niger-Congo speakers all have the major part of their origin from Sudan at a time probably preceding the Green Sahara period (with the northward shift of monsoon rains for many century). The Green Sahara period could relate to the period of expansion of Niger-Congo speakers toward the then green sahara to eventually reach Mali in West Africa."

I don't know about you but if I moved from the Nuba mountains across to West Africa, I know for sure I would have past through Southern sudan past the Central African republic through Northern Cameroon into Igbo land and would definitely not take the longer Niger-Northern Nigerian route

morpheus24:


Lets see now, if the Sahara was an oasis before its desertification, this would mean that the migratory patterns followed a strict North to south "Route".

Seeing that the Sahara stretches all the way to the Eastern end of Africa. This would meant that populations would be pressured to move did not only move North-West but Southern Sudan, Southern Chad, Central African Republic.

Therefore again, if Linguistic similarities are taken into consideration it would show that Niger-Congo speakers most likely took a route originating in Central Africa

Again, for purposes of these argument, SOuthern Chad, Central African republic and South Sudan are considered "Central Africa"

To each his own. I have not seen any paper or academic findings that link Central Africa and Niger congo languages together. Before bantu dispersion into forest of central Africa,linguistically and Genetically,it was associated with African pygmies. There was no Bantu/niger language amongst these pygmies till bantu migration. You are probably looking for some sort of affinity between Central and Western Africa,but this relationship lies within the bantu migration. Most ancient artifacts and settlements closely related to Niger congo people are found in West Africa.
South Sudan was only added to Central Africa in 2011,i wouldn't go as far as South Sudan to establish that relationship. Moreover,they speak Nilo-Saharan languages,any niger congo languages found there dispersed through Bantu migration.

morpheus24:


excerps

"Basically, here it says the Niger-Congo speakers (also called Niger-Kordofanian) had their origin in the far east around the Nuba Mountains in Sudan (Kordofan region) and that they then spread to as far west as Mali in West Africa for their first expansion. It can also be noted that the E-M2 (E1b1a) haplogroup also is said to have its origin in the same approximate region. An haplogroup widespread among Niger-Congo speakers along with other haplogroups.

So basically, Niger-Congo speakers all have the major part of their origin from Sudan at a time probably preceding the Green Sahara period (with the northward shift of monsoon rains for many century). The Green Sahara period could relate to the period of expansion of Niger-Congo speakers toward the then green sahara to eventually reach Mali in West Africa."

I don't know about you but if I moved from the Nuba mountains across to West Africa, I know for sure I would have past through Southern sudan past the Central African republic through Northern Cameroon into Igbo land and would definitely not take the longer Niger-Northern Nigerian route

.
Spread West,before entering central Africa down to Eastern and Southern Africa.

PhysicsQED:


No.

And you think these groups may have left to the interior?

possibly they at least migrated somewhere, it was very common in those times.