Shugamania: .

Did i mention dat i dont like getting into religious arguments Dis is d exact reason why.. And to think u promised not 2 do dis anymore a few days ago...Evry1's entitled 2 their individual opinions i guess, i rest my case :-)

dont get things twisted pls, i promised NOT to deal in personal insults... which i have heeded ever since. If you think it means i will ease off on calling out islam for the violent, murderous cult of demons that it truly is... you have something else coming.

2good:

Its not just a story but a very clear illustration of what the religion teaches. It is punishable by death to renounce Islam in several Islamic countries

ur right to some degree,but it is never sanctioned in the quran.
Islam is a religion of conviction

justaqad:

ur right to some degree,but it is never sanctioned in the quran.
Islam is a religion of conviction

No I am not right to some degree but absolutely right. The people that practice these acts, take their inspiration from texts in the Quran. Maybe the educated Muslims are practicing a dilute form of Islam which is not what the prophet Mohammed left after he died.

2good:

No I am not right to some degree but absolutely right. The people that practice these acts, take their inspiration from texts in the Quran. Maybe the educated Muslims are practicing a dilute form of Islam which is not what the prophet Mohammed left after he died.

prove ur point from the quran.

justaqad:

ur right to some degree,but it is never sanctioned in the quran.
Islam is a religion of conviction

Obviously you're having a laugh right? A religion of "conviction"? I laugh in chinese... apparently that is why islam imposes a death sentence on those who quit?

Justaqad, I'm waiting for the proof.

justaqad:
prove ur point from the quran.

Are you more learned than the Egyptian Islamic cleric that categorically said you will be killed if you denounce Islam?

2good:

Are you more learned than the Egyptian Islamic cleric that categorically said you will be killed if you denounce Islam?

This the big p a lot have coz e is not an egyptian cleric does not mean its not evident it the holy book,ma shuld not say wah dey know not of ,this is a social law,you all are responding to go to the book yourself and point where its said that you kill those that reject or aint advocates of Islam!if u can please do this i would know that yes Islam lacks free will...

davidylan:

Obviously you're having a laugh right? A religion of "conviction"? I laugh in chinese... apparently that is why islam imposes a death sentence on those who quit?

And where in the Quran did u come across this ?

spenca:
This the big p a lot have coz e is not an egyptian cleric does not mean its not evident it the holy book,ma shuld not say wah dey know not of ,this is a social law,you all are responding to go to the book yourself and point where its said that you kill those that reject or aint advocates of Islam!if u can please do this i would know that yes Islam lacks free will...

Tell me if this text from the Quran is wrong.

Quran-4:89— “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades (change to other religions), seize them and kill them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-”

spenca:
And where in the Quran did u come across this ?

quran 3:90-91

quran 3:85

2good:

Tell me if this text from the Quran is wrong.

Quran-4:89— “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades (change to other religions), seize them and kill them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-”

Islam does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Qur’an and the guidance of our blessed Prophet Muhammad -peace be upon him and upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah. The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, “…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” (al-An’am 6:151) and Allah says in the Qur’an, “Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)” (al-Isra’ 17:33). According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See al- Ma’idah 5:32) However,the Qur’an says, “kill them wherever you find them…” as it is mentioned Surah al-Nisa’ 4:89. The answer is simple and that is, you should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Read the full text and see what is said: “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that
of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them. (Al-Nisa’ 4:89-91) Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one any where? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non- Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized. It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals

2good, hadiths also recorded killing of apostates from the mouth of the messenger of allah. I'm waiting for his rebuttal on this one.

justaqad:

Islam does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Qur’an and the guidance of our blessed Prophet Muhammad -peace be upon him and upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah. The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, “…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” (al-An’am 6:151) and Allah says in the Qur’an, “Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)” (al-Isra’ 17:33). According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See al- Ma’idah 5:32) However,the Qur’an says, “kill them wherever you find them…” as it is mentioned Surah al-Nisa’ 4:89. The answer is simple and that is, you should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Read the full text and see what is said: “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that
of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them. (Al-Nisa’ 4:89-91) Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one any where? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non- Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized. It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals

You asked me for proof of one of my earlier quote and I gave you. Again I will ask you thesame question and just want an honest answer of yes or no from you.
Is this verse from the Quran?

Quran-4:89— “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades (change to other religions), seize them and kill them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-”

Justaqad, either you have not studied Islam or your Imam is showing you nice verse from Koran and Hadiths.

Here's more

Bukhari (83:37) – “Allah’s Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate.”

Bukhari (52:260) – “…The Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ “ Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57: (Bukhari (84:57)
Narrated ‘Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the [words of] Allah’s Apostle, “Whoever changed his Islamic religion,then kill him”

Bukhari (89:271) – A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to “the verdict of Allah and his apostle.”

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64: ( Bukhari (84:64-65)
Narrated ‘Ali:
Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah’s Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.”

2good:

You asked me for proof of one of my earlier quote and I gave you. Again I will ask you thesame question and just want an honest answer of yes or no from you.
Is this verse from the Quran?

Quran-4:89— “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades (change to other religions), seize them and kill them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-”

you quoted the verse out of context to suit your hypocritical interest.
Read the whole verse.the quran wont bite i promise.
Quran is the revealed book and guidance for all beleivers,not hadith,

justaqad:

you quoted the verse out of context to suit your hypocritical interest.
Read the whole verse.the quran wont bite i promise.
Quran is the revealed book and guidance for all beleivers,not hadith,

Really funny. There is no need for further discussion. You selectively pick verses that suit you intentions and called mine out of context and hypocritical. That is the problem with religion. People feel they have understanding while others don't have understanding and everybody get their inspiration from thesame book.

2good:

Really funny. There is no need for further discussion. You selectively pick verses that suit you intentions and called mine out of context and hypocritical. That is the problem with religion. People feel they have understanding while others don't have understanding and everybody get their inspiration from thesame book.

i quoted the whole verse.
Hehehehehehehehehe,no proof abi now ur running away.hehehehehehehe

Justaqad, how about the hadiths now? are those out of context too?

*just watching for now*

proo212: @Lagoshia, why do you lie like this? I thought you said in another thread that Jehovah and Allah are the same entity. If so why can I not build a Church in Saudi Arabia? There is a mosque in Jerusalem! For the sake of argument, where are synagogues in Saudi Arabia?

This Allah does not like those who call him Yahweh or Jehovah. In Tennessee,where there are only a hundred Muslim families, the mosque being built is way above the needs of the people there. Who is funding the building of the mosque?

Why is Islam bent on world domination? I thought we worshipped the same God...

when you want to post,think first so you dont sound ridiculous.

how does what you call God and what name you use have to do with this?

also,you have divided him into three and you have given him a son among other beliefs.you undoubtedly as a Christian following an Abrahamic religion should know who God is.but what you belief about Him is entirely a different story.

and who is really talking about world domination? i am talking here of Makkah and Madinah and not washington or wherever.i am not saying only Muslims should build mosques in america and christians are not allowed.we are talking of Makkah.

the inhabitants of Jerusalem are majority Muslims who embraced Islam upon the arabian conquest of that land.the point is the indigenes of Jerusalem known in arabic specifically as "Maqdisiyyin" are majority Muslims and followed by Christians until when the Israeli occupation fo Jerusalem came in to tilt the balance in favor of european jews who came from abroad to settle.

LagosShia:

when you want to post,think first so you dont sound ridiculous.

how does what you call God and what name you use have to do with this?

also,you have divided him into three and you have given him a son among other beliefs.you undoubtedly as a Christian following an Abrahamic religion should know who God is.but what you belief about Him is entirely a different story.

and who is really talking about world domination? i am talking here of Makkah and Madinah and not washington or wherever.i am not saying only Muslims should build mosques in america and christians are not allowed.we are talking of Makkah.

the inhabitants of Jerusalem are majority Muslims who embraced Islam upon the arabian conquest of that land.the point is the indigenes of Jerusalem known in arabic specifically as "Maqdisiyyin" are majority Muslims and followed by Christians until when the Israeli occupation fo Jerusalem came in to tilt the balance in favor of european jews who came from abroad to settle.

LagosShia, there is an answer I have been seeking from you which you haven't given a direct answer to. Is there freedom of religion in islam?

this is the old trick of fetching out hadiths from anywhere regardless of the grading of the hadiths and use them to rub on the Muslim's face.let us examine these hadiths.

proo212: Justaqad, either you have not studied Islam or your Imam is showing you nice verse from Koran and Hadiths.

Here's more

Bukhari (83:37) – “Allah’s Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate.”

Bukhari (52:260) – “…The Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ “ Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.

all these 3 punishments are in line with the bible.or do you disagree? does your bible God approve of them or not? i dont care whether you believe Jesus (as) has come and this is in OT.i am not concerned if your bible god repented.the question is did he approve of them or not?

also,the issue of adultery based on the Quran,there is no prescription of death as punishment but flogging.

the issue of apostacy too is the same-no death sentence.in fact in the Quran someone who believes and then disbelieve and then believe is acceptable until he disbelieves and then he is told that the hell fire would be his portion.

the punishment for apostacy is prescribed death when the case is political or in the form of treason.in other words,no one can force anyone to believe or not.but when you do,take care of yourself and keep your belief to yourself and celebrate your god or godlessness.do not use that to provoke others,undermine their beliefs,and oppose the basis of government which is Islam in a sharia state.apostacy should not be used as a tool to undermine the beliefs of others-you are in other words offending others and infringing upon their right to believe.

and by the way i am here defending Sunni hadiths.lol

Mr_Anony:

LagosShia, there is an answer I have been seeking from you which you haven't given a direct answer to. Is there freedom of religion in islam?

please can you define "freedom of religion".as far as i know "freedom" is a relative term that people apply differently and use or abuse differntly to suit their agendas.

so define for me what "freedom" you are refering to and i will answer you.

LagosShia:

please can you define "freedom of religion".as far as i know "freedom" is a relative term that people apply differently and use or abuse differntly to suit their agendas.

so define for me what "freedom" you are refering to and i will answer you.

I understand so far that one ought not be compelled into islam, but is one free to reject islam after he has accepted it? Is one free to preach about his faith in an islamic state?

Mr_Anony:

I understand so far that one ought not be compelled into islam, but is one free to reject islam after he has accepted it? Is one free to preach about his faith in an islamic state?

"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path."[Holy Quran 4:137].

in (4:137),if a person is to be killed for apostacy,then how can he believe again after he disbelieves?

as for preaching or rather marketing religion and using it as business to "attract" or rather deceive people,you should take a look at this video and the joke of it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLtY2owbCGM&feature=player_embedded


i as a Muslim do not mind hearing what a christian have to say about his beliefs nor does Islam forbid that.there is no harm if it is done in the form of dialogue and sharing beliefs or ideas or even debating them.there is harm when you want to turn religion into a marketable commodity and competition to deceive people using different methods including bribery and feeding empty stomachs to trade for their souls.

spenca: Mr antony hope u got ur clearifications?all that's left in this post is personality war,i shuld leave

Thanks, I think I did understand something in the end even though there's more confusion than clarity however one thing that stands out to me though is that islam is relatively intolerant to opposing views, and what bothers me is that if islam is true, why would it need force and the threat of force to maintain it's hold?

Mr_Anony:
Thanks, I think I did understand something in the end even though there's more confusion than clarity however one thing that stands out to me though is that islam is relatively intolerant to opposing views, and what bothers me is that if islam is true, why would it need force and the threat of force to maintain it's hold?

i feel deeply sorry for you if that is all you have understood.it means you're here to waste people's time.it is the usual dishonesty.and that is exactly what Islam is against and will wipe out whether it stems from your corrupt personality or the religion you believe in.

2good:

You asked me for proof of one of my earlier quote and I gave you. Again I will ask you thesame question and just want an honest answer of yes or no from you.
Is this verse from the Quran?

Quran-4:89— “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades (change to other religions), seize them and kill them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-”

and this verse is talking about renagades.

may be you should take what is happening in syria or what happened in libya as examples.when your soldier turn against you and he joins the enemy forces,is that not treason? would the Nigerian state tolerate soldiers of the nigerian army to take side with boko haram and fight the government? what would be their punishment?

LagosShia:

"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path."[Holy Quran 4:137].

in (4:137),if a person is to be killed for apostacy,then how can he believe again after he disbelieves?

as for preaching or rather marketing religion and using it as business to "attract" or rather deceive people,you should take a look at this video and the joke of it:


i as a Muslim do not mind hearing what a christian have to say about his beliefs nor does Islam forbid that.there is no harm if it is done in the form of dialogue and sharing beliefs or ideas or even debating them.there is harm when you want to turn religion into a marketable commodity and competition to deceive people using different methods including bribery and feeding empty stomachs to trade for their souls.

I am a christian and I am also against religion and the marketing of it. Evangelism is not marketing, I agree with you there but I also will not physically stop a person from marketing his commodity other than rebuke such a one.
Now one thing about Christianity that you may not know is that the nature of Christianity implies that the hungry are fed. Wherever Christianity goes, what gets set up apart from the church building are school, hospitals and care homes, it is not done as a bribe, it is just how christianity is. If Christianity was to appear in a muslim city, these institutions I mentioned will immediately follow. To persecute a Christian for charity by calling it bribery is very intolerant don't you agree?

Mr_Anony:
I am a christian and I am also against religion and the marketing of it. Evangelism is not marketing, I agree with you there but I also will not physically stop a person from marketing his commodity other than rebuke such a one.
Now one thing about Christianity that you may not know is that the nature of Christianity implies that the hungry are fed. Wherever Christianity goes, what gets set up apart from the church building are school, hospitals and care homes, it is not done as a bribe, it is just how christianity is. If Christianity was to appear in a muslim city, these institutions I mentioned will immediately follow. To persecute a Christian for charity by calling it bribery is very intolerant don't you agree?

no i dont agree.

it would have being far better had an atheist (not a christian) raise these questions.you got one finger pointing at others while the four remaining are pointing back at you.

christian groups that evangelize or in other words go hunting or fishing for souls,are not the most charitable people in the world.you do not need to help people and then try to shove the bible down their throats.in fact all the money you spend trying to fish or hunt souls especially ones that are uneducated or ignorant of religious matters,can be spent helping poor people.

these institutions you are talking about are just means or rather traps to lure the unsuspecting.the christian evangelist who proselytise has more tricks than a 419 criminal.

if you want to preach and you really believe you have the truth,you should bring your priests or bishops and the most knowledgable among your learned men to a muslim city,country or community to hold a public dialogue or debate with the most knowledgeable and learned of the muslims.in that way people can know which of the two is best.you don't go about propagating lies and using tricks and then ask if that is allowed or permitted.is lying allowed in christianity? if not,then why do you want us to accept that? if fake publicity is illegal then why should we accept it? there is a well defined method in Islam to preach and freedom to do so.but harassing vulnerable preys who could be unlearned or ignorant and looking for loopholes to exploit is not freedom to preach but exploitation.i have christian friends who preach.and what they do,is to look for the "vulnerable" they see as "having a willing spirit to receive the message".if they meet a muslim who wants to engage them,they refuse and excuse themselves.that is dishonest and shameful.

LagosShia:

no i dont agree.

it would have being far better had an atheist (not a christian) raise these questions.you got one finger pointing at others while the four remaining are pointing back at you.

christian groups that evangelize or in other words go hunting or fishing for souls,are not the most charitable people in the world.you do not need to help people and then try to shove the bible down their throats.in fact all the money you spend trying to fish or hunt souls especially ones that are uneducated or ignorant of religious matters,can be spent helping poor people.

these institutions you are talking about are just means or rather traps to lure the unsuspecting.the christian evangelist who proselytise has more tricks than a 419 criminal.

if you want to preach and you really believe you have the truth,you should bring your priests or bishops and the most knowledgable among your learned men to a muslim city,country or community to hold a public dialogue or debate with the most knowledgeable and learned of the muslims.in that way people can know which of the two is best.you don't go about propagating lies and using tricks and then ask if that is allowed or permitted.is lying allowed in christianity? if not,then why do you want us to accept that? if fake publicity is illegal then why should we accept it? there is a well defined method in Islam to preach and freedom to do so.but harassing vulnerable preys who could be unlearned or ignorant and looking for loopholes to exploit is not freedom to preach but exploitation.i have christian friends who preach.and what they do,is to look for the "vulnerable" they see as "having a willing spirit to receive the message".if they meet a muslim who wants to engage them,they refuse and excuse themselves.that is dishonest and shameful.

allahu akbar my islamic brother. how is the ramadan going ?