GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread - Religion (5) - Nairaland
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Dont Be Deceived In Church Today Brethren. / Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? / Yahweh And Freewill (2) (3) (4)
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| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 8:13pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
5solas: Yes it can, brother. If, like I have kept saying, Father knew that once He created, such and such would choose to be saved and be in fellowship with Him, then the very act of Creation would make Him ultimately the reason that they chose as they did. Therefore before ever they chose Him, He had chosen them. As the Scriptures say, "whom He foreknew, He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son..." Note the order. Predestination to this or that follows foreknowledge. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 8:20pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Ok. Now, I rest my fingers and await your responses (hope there are some). I have a feeling that hell should be addressed since the concept of eternal damnation sometimes causes questions about God's lovingkindness and if by creating He predestines a man to hell, then how could He say His creating that man was an act of love toward that man? I believe I've already answered that. I just wonder if it is a worthwhile tangent to pursue. There are a bunch of such tangents like the 144 000 and the man-child, the vast multitude in heaven and the man of lawlessness. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 8:32pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Mr_Anony:for me, am destined for salvation/glory but its my freewill to accept or reject it. Amen |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 8:34pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by truthislight: 9:10pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Oops |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by truthislight: 9:12pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
cyrexx: @ truthislight, and @cyrexx. Bro, This issue of sinning against the holy spirit is an issue that cause alot of concern to persons. One thing to understand about it is that those that has sin against the holy spirit dont just start asking for forgiveness as though they have come to realisation that what they did was wrong since they did it deliberately knowing that what they are doing is bad but they did it anyway. Consider Judas Iscariot, one of Jesus disciple, his reaction was to kill himself, how then can he help himself? His action was from a greedy wicked dishonest heart. One can not repent at death but rather when one is still alive, so God's mercy is for the living that repent. The bible says that God is greater than our heart, so, the fact that ones conscience is pricking the person, that is a sign that there is still good in there and God can see it since he searches man's heart and knows the intent. This is where a honest heart comes in since we can not deceive God. Read Isaiah 5:20. It is a very seriouse thing for one to deliberately work against God purposes. Opposing him like satan did. This is the problem with sinning against the holy spirit which is the clear manifestation of Gods will but someone decided to derail it. Note, one only have the opportunity of repentance while a live. I did not see the bible teaching predestination and as such i have no qualms to explain much on that. Man is a free moral agent, that is why God completely allows him to make his choices while he is alive. He only determines that a specific nos will rule with his son Jesus, he did not predetermine the individual persons that will makeup the group but the nos = Revelation 14:3, Revelation 20:5,6. This nos of people will work to restore mankind back to perfection. Another problem i see is that when people are dishonest, they have real problem, cus thats the ruth of all this pros. Finally. God did not predetermine what u will do. U are a free man, he only opened up the way not to judge u base on what Adam did, but to judge u base on what u are doing by clearing away Adams sin. So, after after clearing Adam's sin how can he predetermine ur life for u again? 1 Like |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by 5solas(m): 9:28pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Ihedinobi: If the bolded is true, then salvation cannot at the same time be of grace. I will say this here, if we hold this clear truth (that salvation is by grace-is not deserved) then we will be better able to grasp these issues relating to our salvation. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by 5solas(m): 9:47pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: If we accept this to be true , by extension it would mean freedom to choose to be saved or not to be saved. It would put salvation in Man's hands. What would now differentiate the lost from the saved? Freewill! Well may we praise this human quality, freewill. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 9:51pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
5solas: Per the bolded part of your answer, I think not. I understand your position on our undeservedness of salvation and sympathise with it. I also think I understand your point about grace. We do not deserve to be saved. Therefore, we can never have salvation of merit. If we will be saved, it must be because we fully consciously lay hold upon Christ's own merit and accept it as an adequate answer for our failure. How predestination works with respect to this is that we who are saved were known before God created to be the ones who would accept God's gift of Christ to cover our inadequacy. Grace means that God made available to us the means of salvation which we could not provide for ourselves. But, if we have freedom to choose, then we could reject grace as easily as embrace it. So, that God knew before creating who it was among humans that would embrace His grace and went ahead anyway to create still constitutes predestination. What predestination says is that God created, fully cognizant of the choices that would result from that act of creation. It does not preclude grace at all. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 9:58pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
5solas: 5solas, I like to think that you among other commenters on this thread are a brother. Why then does it read like you are working an argument? I have my fill of arguments with atheists and agnostics on other threads. I am here to share the Word with my brothers and sisters. How can I do that when you think the piece you have is the whole and what I or anyone else here has is something other than the Word without even examining them closely? My brother, take it easy and learn with us. As to your comment on free will, it doesn't follow that because man is free to choose or reject salvation, free will becomes ultimate. If that makes it so, what happens to the Giver of it? |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by MyJoe: 10:20pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
frosbel: "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."- 1 Corinthians 2:2But you are a man yet you strut around NL dishing out your own interpretations. Why should we take you seriously? 1 Like |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by 5solas(m): 10:20pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Ihedinobi: I am sorry if I seem to be spoiling for a fight. I should be more gracious really since apart from this freewill bit and predestination based on the foreknown actions of men, I agree with the rest of *your post. Please go on with your teaching. *Edited. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by 5solas(m): 10:26pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
frosbel: "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."- 1 Corinthians 2:2 MyJoe:  |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 10:30pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
5solas: Could you outline your position on free will, predestination and foreknowledge with a Biblical background, please? I'd like to see what you have received in your walk with Father regarding them. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by 5solas(m): 10:50pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
5solas: Please take note of the bolded. Ihedinobi: Ok, I will put up something tomorrow, thanks. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 10:15am On Jul 26, 2012 |
[b][/b] Ihedinobi: I agree with you that God wants us to know these mysteries but the mysteries are for times and purposes and not all mysteries will be revealed at once.The mysteries revealed to moses are not the mysteries revealed to paul because their callings and the times were different this is what i mean when i say the mysteries of God. predestination and foreordination are that the fate of people have been decided beforehand. My submission remains that there is a choice to be made otherwise all the isrealites that left egypt will be in canaan land and live happily ever after.no laws would have been necessary because they have been preordained to be saved and therefore require no laws to guide them and therefore no need for the new covenant. Again my submission- all humans are predestined to be saved this is the new covenant. Emphasizing on Choice,you choose to accept/believe the free gift of salvation or reject it God will not force his salvation on any one.There is a choice to be made. God is love. The idea of a loving God churning out billions of humans and then predestinating a few to be saved negates love. God wills that no man should perish now what each person wills for himself is another thing. I encourage you not to read not only romans 9 but also proceed to romans 10. see also vs 3 for they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 5solas: Are you saying that the israelites who persihed in the wilderness were preordained to do so and not because of their unbelief.? are you saying they were programmed to disbelieve God at a certain time and place so that they would then perish? Where then is choice or the exercise of will or freewill.Are you saying man has no say over the events of his life and therefore God controls his every choices? or are you saying some people have been preordained to be saved and some to perish and as such there is no choice in the matter of salvation.? 1 Like |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by noncapax: 2:04pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. If predestination means that God merely foresaw those who would choose to be saved, it means those choices are already fixed, and cannot be changed. Something else has done d predestination. Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. The doctrine of election is hard to swallow, but we must accept it if the bible is our final authority. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Zikkyy(m): 3:43pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
Ihedinobi: Good question. Cos i see inconsistencies. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by MrAnony1(m): 3:52pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
5solas:Eagerly waiting for your comments....... 1 Like |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Zikkyy(m): 3:55pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
5solas: Events could be pre-destined, but does it take away free-will? I think we are mixing things here. Dreaming of an event prior to it occurrence have nothing to do with freewill. It will happen if it is not within our power to change it. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Zikkyy(m): 4:06pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
Deep Sight: Some experiences, yes. Take for example you had this dream your boss gave you a raise, came to work the following morning with a promotion letter sitting on your desk. That's not within your control. What you can control is the ability to accept the offer. What if in your dream you got this offer to work in Iraq for 3 times your current earnings. You wake up the following morning with the offer in your mail. Do you think this particular 'event' can be avoided  |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Zikkyy(m): 4:20pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
5solas: I would say that God chose a group of people first (the Israelite), then later expanded to include all others (Gentiles). |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 4:52pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
andromida: You are correct but who determines these times? I'm not intending to start an argument here. I'm saying that just folding one's hands and waiting for the calling and time to be shown these mysteries is not Christlike at all. We have been told to ask. I stayed on this thread because the issue under study was a major thorn for me. If I had merely waited for some vague time and call to know, it would still be. So, it's an exhortation on my part to say, strive earnestly for the best things. predestination and foreordination are that the fate of people have been decided beforehand. My submission remains that there is a choice to be made otherwise all the isrealites that left egypt will be in canaan land and live happily ever after.no laws would have been necessary because they have been preordained to be saved and therefore require no laws to guide them and therefore no need for the new covenant. I agree. I'll address the bolded, with which I disagree, in the next section. Again my submission- all humans are predestined to be saved this is the new covenant. Emphasizing on Choice,you choose to accept/believe the free gift of salvation or reject it God will not force his salvation on any one.There is a choice to be made. The word "predestination" is broken down thus: pre + destine + ation. "Pre" is a prefix meaning before, "destine" is the root word there meaning to fix irrevocably something's fate and outcome, "ation" is a suffix that I think means something like "the act of". That means that predestination means the act of fixing or determining before hand the fate or outcome of a thing regardless what factors come into play. If this meaning is correct, then if all humans are destined to be saved then it is impossible for any of them to choose otherwise. God is love. The idea of a loving God churning out billions of humans and then predestinating a few to be saved negates love. God wills that no man should perish now what each person wills for himself is another thing. Forgive my question, but did you read those four long posts I made detailing my thoughts on the matter? It's for their length that I'm apologizing but if you did, I wonder why you still think that God's foreordaining some to salvation and not others negates His Love, because I think I cleared it there. My expectation was that you or anyone else having problems or difficulties with my explanations could show me where they failed in sufficiency. And I do not see you doing that with this comment. Anyway, I said that because God went ahead to create knowing what He knew of the choices that His intelligent creatures would make, that very act of creation constituted both predestination and foreordination. My reason, and I think I have the Spirit of God in saying so, is that if He had never created, nobody would have made any choice. And if He had the ability to create, He must also be capable of knowing and understanding everything possible about His Creation. Life bears this out. Nobody knows a thing or method better than the human being who invented or created it. God could not but know what giving men a free will would result in. He knew that they could use it this way or that. He also knew that if He introduced this or that into the environment of any given man, that man should tend towards this choice and not that, but He also knew that the tendency would not be enough. The man himself was the final decision-maker for his own destiny. It is only because God before creating that man already knew what decision he would make no matter what God did to his environment to help him towards choosing Life that God's going ahead to create that man constituted predestination. I bolded the word "wills" in your statement that "God wills for no man to perish" to point out that it was the wrong word. God made us in his own image. If that means that we possess even though in a measure His abilities, it means that we have wills because God also has a will. If our will decides what we do or refrain from, then you can be sure that God's Will does the same. If our will is inviolable in its free state, believe me, God's Will is more so. Therefore if God wills that no man should perish, no man will perish, free will or not. In fact, I assure you that none of us would have a will in the first place. This is why the Scripture you were quoting said, "The Lord is...not willing (not desiring, AMP) that any should perish". It does not mean He has willed that none will perish. It's an expression of desire, not choice. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Zikkyy(m): 4:53pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
non capax: It is the interpretation that is hard to swallow. No issues accepting the bible as our final authority. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 5:11pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
I feel very strongly that the major rock of offence in this matter of predestination and election is the punishment of hell. I'd wondered if I should wait till everyone has aired their views on my submissions concerning the matter before proceeding, but as it is, not much appears forthcoming. So, I think I'll go on and address the punishment of hell or more correctly, the second death a.k.a the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). Actually I think it should be a separate thread but its bearing on the issue is so urgent and immediate that going on to create a separate thread for it would be meaningless and in fact a minus from the efforts of this thread. So, I hope you can all bear with me. My understanding is that the general feeling is that hell is some eternal torture that enemies of God suffer for having stood against Him in their lifetime. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. The thing is that if predestination is as I have described then where is the Love of God in God's creating a man that He knew would choose Death especially if Death is that horror described in Rev 19:20? This is very easily a stumbling block even when predestination has been very clearly and understandably explained. If it isn't for you guys, believe me, it was for me at least until the time I'd got deep into that typing frenzy that produced the 4-post, twenty thousand-character long comment hehehe Well, let's get to it, shall we? |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by MrAnony1(m): 5:16pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
@Ihedinobi: Hmm, about God's will......spot on you are. I have been silently following your posts, You almost always steal the words right out of my mouth About hell, I'm interested in hearing what you have to say. carry on. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 6:40pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
Jesus made a number of allusions to a "hell-fire". And John in the Scriptures pointed out spoke of a "fiery lake that burns and blazes with brimstone" and calls it "the second death" (Rev 19:20 AMP). Generally, when salvation is spoken, it seems to me that people think it is salvation from this hell. Now, I don't know if there is a literal lake of fire or not. John's book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is overflowing with symbolism, so I will not speculate about such a thing and if I knew for sure that there is, I doubt that I would speak freely about it. In any case, I do not know. But I do know what "the second death" means. But to explain it, I have to go back to Creation. Why did our Father create at all? Was He just bored and in need of amusement or something? I assure you that the Bible says why and that you don't have to look too hard to find it. In 1 John 4:16, we're told that God is Love. If the Bible is true, then God created because He is Love. The one outstanding characteristic of Love is giving. Love cannot but give good things to that which it loves. The Trinity were in perfect harmony and perfect satisfaction before ever creating anything. They had no need whatsoever. Creation was natural to that state of perfect satisfaction. They wanted to and chose to share this wonderful, perfect fellowship they had together with other beings too. I do not want to run through Paul's letters, especially those to the Ephesians and Colossians, to show that. I ask instead that you guys read them for yourselves. Those letters are filled from end to end with intimations of God's nature of sharing and harmonizing. It's just God's nature. He cannot but give, therefore He created beings to whom He could give and with whom He could share Himself. Now, again I have to remind you guys that it would no longer be Love if God forced this gift on unwilling creatures, even less would it be Love if the creatures He made had no choice but to accept His gift of eternal fellowship with Him. Love must allow the Loved to choose to love back or to reject the offered fellowship. Do I need to point out how romantic relationships everyday show this? I think not...I hope not. Given that God created because He wanted to share the enormous wealth of His Nature with beings outside or apart from Himself and the fact that because of His Nature He must make them able to reject Him, there is the problem of what happens to those who refuse fellowship with Him? He cannot keep calling them to Himself for all eternity. Nor does He. He cannot force them to choose to be with Him eternally. Nor does He. But He can allow them the full span (I'm deliberately avoiding to use "consequence" here) of their choice eternally. And He does. What is the full span of any choice? It is the full-blown pursuit of that choice by the chooser without the continued input of discouragement of any factor. What I mean is something like this, I like to eat something. But a doctor keeps advising me to avoid it because it would ultimately ruin my health. The doctor happens to be a guy who's in love with me, a girl (I'm a guy o!). He can't make me stop eating whatever this thing is that I love so much and I don't even like him, so I tend to stay away from him, not least because I don't like him continuously using that lovey-dovey voice to beg me to stop ruining my health. He's cute too and really decent, in fact too decent (I like really wild, rough, swearing biker-gang or alaye or agbero types), so it's not like there's something wrong with him. It's just that there's nothing wrong with him, that's the problem. He's been reaching out to me for donkey years now (don't know when the dumbo's gonna get that I can't be with him and stop eating my loved...whatever). Finally, he gives up and lets me be, hooks up with a really drop-dead gorgeous, incredibly decent (just like him, yeah) sweetheart and gets himself married. I couldn't be happier. Now I can eat my...whatever...for the rest of my life without his crooning (hope that's the right word) voice in my tired ears. I might ruin my health for all eternity, what do I care? As long as I can eat my... without his over-caring voice to worry me. The analogy breaks down only at the point of continuing to eat whatever that thing is for eternity. Because the second death is not that finally we're free of the conscience that keeps us in turmoil over the evil we keep choosing and now we can do as we please. It's more like, finally we can do as we please...without any single person to do it with. Yes, the second death is the fullness of the selfishness that governs evil. It is God affirming our choice to be left alone such that we are indeed alone...eternally. If you think that being left to your own devices is not a pain, you must have incredibly dull "friends" and a cowardly "family". It is, y'all, a very big one! |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 7:21pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
Whether or not there is a fiery lake, one thing is bound to be the portion of all whose names are not found written in the Lamb's book of Life: their house will be left to them desolate (Matt 23:38). The sign of Life wherever it is at work is harmony and increase. Wherever it is lacking, there is "not one stone left upon another" and a wasteland. This is what Death is: NOTHING. The second death is just that: a condition of nothing. The coldness of nothing is not capturable in words any more than the glory of being with God is capturable in words. I can assure you that there isn't very great need to wait till the Day of Judgment to taste the awfulness of the second death. Right here, right now, one can taste it. Just like in our walk with God we have this first taste by the Holy Spirit's indwelling of the wonders of the Kingdom of God, we also had a taste of that wasteland called Death while we were unbelievers sold under sin. We know that taste well. It was this same taste that we were fighting so hard and that helped our grasping the Hand of the Savior when He came to give us Life. Terrible thing, no? If you don't remember, you probably never left. I remember very well and can never, even for all the kingdoms of the world, give up this Life that I've found. So there. The second death is, in Jesus's words, having your house left to you desolate...for the rest of eternity. Is it possible to come to regret your choice of Death while alive when you are thrown into the lake of fire? Perhaps. Is it possible to repent them? NO! Eternity times NO! Repentance is possible because of the Holy Spirit and by the time one is standing before the Judgment Seat of Christ, it's a job He would have finished. The Bible says that God's Spirit will not contend with man forever (Gen 6:3). He will plead until a man drops dead, but after that time, He will do no more. I have gone into all this to bring this home: Love must give the loved the freedom to choose - (a) to be in communion and perfect fellowship with God and therefore with everything He created or, (b) to be out of communion and fellowship with God and therefore with everything. God is the reason everything coheres. It is He Who upholds all things by the Word of His Power. Take Him away and everything falls to pieces and becomes a wasteland. It does not appear to be wholly so today. Even Satan's kingdom seems to be a coherent entity. This is because "he that letteth will let till he be taken out of the way". God is still courting us, reaching for us so He holds back the fullness of the evilness of evil (can't figure out a better way to put this). But in time, He will let those who would be free of Him to do exactly as they wish. Then indeed, there will be no question as to the fact that outside of God, there really is NOTHING! |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 9:23pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
5solas: Duly noted. Ok, I will put up something tomorrow, thanks. Looking forward to it. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by 5solas(m): 10:05pm On Jul 26, 2012 |
A lot of believers are wont to thump up ‘freewill’ whenever there is a mention of predestination. They feel uncomfortable by it. To some and also to some unbelievers, it seems a ‘cheap’ way to get to heaven. Imagine a person believing he will get to heaven simply because he was predestinated to! But if we think predestination a ‘cheap’ way to get to heaven, how about grace? It seems to me a ‘cheap’ way to get to heaven too. To think Christ died for you and took upon Himself the punishment due to you and with that offering you are perfected forever and He is able to save you completely. It is much easier for us believers to believe the doctrine of salvation by grace than to believe in the doctrine of predestination. But that there is a predestination of everything that takes place and of salvation in particular , let us go into the Bible: *We read in Eph 1:3-5 that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Having being predestinated ‘’unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will’’, * Matt 11: 25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. *2Thess.2: 13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because[b] God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation[/b] through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth *Rev. 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life *1Thess.5: 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, From these verses it is clear also that there is a predestination to damnation, we may rightly infer it, but it is also clearly stated in the Bible: *Rom.9: 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: *1Peter2: 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. *Jude 4 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. *Examples of predestination can be found in the Joseph story. He told his brothers, Gen.50:20 ‘’ But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive’’. *It was said of the sons of Isaac, "the elder shall serve the younger" and it was so. *Judas betrayed Christ as prophesied and for thirty pieces of silver. *Peter denied Christ thrice before the cock crowed. *Peter was asked to go fishing and to look into the mouth of the first fish he catches and there he would find a coin to pay taxes with, and it was so! *In the time of the judges, Barak was told he would not have the honour of killing Sisera,it would go to a woman, and it was so. From all I have said about predestination, it should normally surprise me if they are people who still would argue there is no such thing, but I won’t be surprised for many of such persons already know the verses and still argue against it. The teaching of predestination is supported by God’s foreknowledge. God knows how this world would end and it cannot end in any other way. His knowledge of future events is certain. He says in Isaiah 46:9,10 “ Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:”… God knows now how we all lived our lives , how we all died, who would go to heaven, or hell. Can man make choices? Yes!Does he have a will?Yes. Does he have freewill? No. Man can make choices , and as far as he is concerned they are free, but he cannot act other than God wills and foreknows. The heart of the king it is said, is in his hands “ as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will”.—Prov.21:1. He can restrain evil or permit evil. Yet in all of this, we are exhorted to seek Him, we are to preach the gospel to all. If it was the intension of God to save all, all would be saved. He chose to save some and not all men. Men do not convert themselves, neither are they born again of themselves the Spirit of God makes the difference in who are saved and who are not. We do not find God, rather we are found of God Gal.4:9. Paul was converted without his seeking God, it is a testimony of the fact that we are saved , not by “freewill” or anything in us but for something in God. But as we know not before our conversion if we are chosen or not, we should cry out to Him for our salvation because to Him it belongs. Christ did not die to give us an opportunity to save ourselves, He died to save as many as the “ Lord shall call” Acts2:39. And as many as He saves can never be lost, for to save them was His determination and He did not die in vain. |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by 5solas(m): 1:23am On Jul 27, 2012 |
The teaching of predestination is also supported by that of grace. That is why Paul stresses in Romans 9:11,12 that the younger of Isaac's children was blessed rather than the elder, before they had done anything-good or bad.So that the blessing (and eventual salvation of Jacob) should not be ascribed to His good works (either present or foreseen) or anything of his (his freewill included)but to God's choice of him.See also Rom. 11:5,6. To sum up: Rom.9:16 "And so God's blessings are not given just because someone decides to have them or works hard to get them. They are given because God takes pity on those He wants to."--TLB |
| Re: GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread by Nobody: 6:51am On Jul 27, 2012 |
^^ @5solas, I think I should give other commenters an opportunity to respond although I was the one that requested your views. Depending on how they answer, I'll come in later. Thank you for giving your thoughts on this and thereby keeping your word. |
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