predestination is a whole load of bullcrap.it doesnt make sense and it doesnt exist.its ridiculous to assume every step of my life has been predestined.hence my typing of this post has been predestined.its just nonsense

predestination is a whole load of bullcrap.it doesnt make sense and it doesnt exist.its ridiculous to assume every step of my life has been predestined.hence my typing of this post has been predestined.its just nonsense
some people are "elects" some people are not.whats even the meaning of that crap?so no matter how hard some people try,they will never suceed.thats just ridiculous

Delafruita:
therez this thing christians do before cracking open the bible,they ask the holy spirit to teach and instruct.you should try it

thats rich coming from a belligerent heathen who does not believe in God. your words are akin to the turd in the commode.

Delafruita: so no matter how hard some people try,they will never suceed.thats just ridiculous

You know, predestination as an eternal principle says nothing like that at all. It only declares God's right and responsibility to "organise" His Creation. You do it everytime you sort through your papers or working material. I know it quite intimately in my own work where I birth ideas that I know I will discard.

But predestination is just one side of the coin, just like I said earlier. Choice is the other. You are told that if you thirst, if you hunger, if you will have, if you believe, you will receive. Therefore, as far as our own side of things is concerned, we might as well not have been destined to a certain end before time. If we reach this way or that, that's what we'll get.

What I'm saying is that God has predestined, yes, as it is His prerogative to do, but we will come into our predetermined destinies (including your reading this comment, Delafruita) by the choices we make.

Oh, and Mr Anony agrees with some things: me...and the Bible too.

Mehn....where are our brothers?

Men and brethren, let us hear a short summary of the whole bible:

Many eons ago, an un-created omniscient (all-knowing) Spirit Being created some other spirit beings who in his infinite knowledge of the future (predestination), already knew that those spirit beings would piss him off (freewill). When they pissed him he sent them away only to create some more human beings that he knew would use their freewill to eventually piss him off again.
And when they did, he nearly killed off all of them, including innocent babies, and spared only eight. Many years later He selected the Jews as his own race and ignores the rest of humans he had created. He also sometimes orders his Jewish followers to murder every worshippers of non-Jewish deities, including women and children.

Finally, he could not think of a better way to rectify things other than to nail himself to a cross (in form of his son) and somehow say to people "see what you made me do to myself, you should be ashamed of yourselves, you hell-deserving scoundrels i shouldn't have created in the first place had i known better, I regret ever creating you cos your imaginations, which i already knew you would concieve, are always evil"

Ihedinobi:

You know, predestination as an eternal principle says nothing like that at all. It only declares God's right and responsibility to "organise" His Creation. You do it everytime you sort through your papers or working material. I know it quite intimately in my own work where I birth ideas that I know I will discard.

But predestination is just one side of the coin, just like I said earlier. Choice is the other. You are told that if you thirst, if you hunger, if you will have, if you believe, you will receive. Therefore, as far as our own side of things is concerned, we might as well not have been destined to a certain end before time. If we reach this way or that, that's what we'll get.

What I'm saying is that God has predestined, yes, as it is His prerogative to do, but we will come into our predetermined destinies (including your reading this comment, Delafruita) by the choices we make.

Oh, and Mr Anony agrees with some things: me...and the Bible too.

Mehn....where are our brothers?

all you are doing here is giving your own vain opinions and private interpretations. you have not quoted one scripture to back anything you have said.

2 peter 1 vs 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation

isaiah 8 vs 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. you are not speaking according to the bible so there is no light in you. like i said previously you are in slumber.

ecclesiasticus 3 vs 24[b] For many are deceived by their own vain opinion;[/b] thats all you have been doing. giving your own vain opinions and not speaking according to the word and offering your own private interpretations.

1 thessalonians 5 vs 21 prove all things

Mr Anony, looks like we have to move house. We're breaking bread in the open lol.

Anyway, no matter.

Cyrexx, a very close friend of mine, a guy who was twice my roommate, picked a quarrel with me one day out of the blues. I was heartbroken. Why? Because I couldn't get through to the poor guy. He overnight threw out everything he knew of my character and labeled me something I myself couldn't see any relationship with. Based on those silly assumptions he did his very best to destroy our friendship. One thing I persisted in telling him was that I was not this guy he suddenly made me out to be.

That's what all that statement of yours does: assume things about my Father. It makes a lot of sense to you, but none of it is strictly true. You've taken the "whats" the Bible and given your own "whys" to them to suit your prejudices. That's not fair judgment.

Besides, it's not nice crashing a family picnic, is it? Are we offending you guys by trying to share our thoughts on a matter crucial to us?

@ Ihedinobi,

A more accurate analogy is a husband (who is not a verifiably a real person, but a Jewish concept) who i came to know for more than 30 years and he treated me this way in this picture below.

now i have divorced him and signed the divorce papers and what else do you expect me to say about him.
anyone else can give their own views about the conceptualisation but the last time i checked there is no law in Nigeria against free speech.

and sorry for crashing on your picnic, but i dont believe what i say is off-topic. i have some ideas on the bible and i still have a little "feelings" for my divorced husband, albeit no going back to any religious conception again

First of All as regards the topic, I think I lean more towards the Arminian than the Calvinist view about predestination and freewill,I'll explain:


The first things I know about God is that He is ultimate, eternal, almighty, ever present, omniscient, He is just and He is merciful.

Now this is where our dilemma comes in:
if God knows the end from the beginning, which means he already predetermined that a particular number of people well be saved.
This view is evident when we read verses like;
“you do not choose me I chose you”, “before you were formed in your mother’s womb I knew you and has ordained you to be a prophet” etc.

But then again, God is just and has given each man a will of his own so that we can come to know him. The above statements seem to contradict God’s nature because if God knows everything how come he judges people since He already knows that they can’t help it. what is the use of freewill if one has absolutely no control over the future?

Now a common misconception about predestination and God’s omniscience is that the future is fixed and that time is just like a movie that God has already watched before so he knows exactly what is going to show up in the next scene and so as the actor, you’re not really doing anything new except playing out a script unable to control ourselves like puppets in the hands of a master puppeteer.

I don’t think this is the case. To me it is more like the omniscience of God resembles that of an infinitely intelligent chess master who is overseeing a large complex game of chess. From the first move he can predict every single consequence of the choices that will follow down to the end of the game so in a sense he has seen the whole movie before but in this case it doesn’t preclude the fact that the players are indeed making their own choices.

That said, what then is the election and those that are predestined.

Jesus says “without me you can do nothing”. We are sinners and our hearts are desperately wicked. (Jeremiah 17:9), but then in our sins Christ died for us (Romans 5:8 ).
The death and resurrection of Christ brought to us the Holy Spirit which has now been poured out upon all flesh (emphasis on “all flesh”). Therefore the holy spirit is available to everyone - sinner or saint - and He convicts us of sin. (John16:8 ). It is now up to us to decide to submit our will to Him (Romans 8:14). The Holy Spirit does not force us to believe against our will.

This is why I disagree strongly with the Calvinist because he assumes that God has a set of chosen people will be saved no matter what and will stay saved no matter what. i.e. you irresistible grace.

I don’t think that is true but one thing I am sure of is that once a man truly knows God he cannot unknow Him. He may reject him though and this is why the Bible says about those who have tasted God and then turn around and trample His grace under foot have no atonement left for them (Hebrews10:26)

The beauty of God’s grace is that it allows us to have a direct relationship with God as a person.

God is not a grand puppeteer he’s more like a grand chessmaster. It don’t blame the grand chessmaster when you lose the game, you can only blame your poor choices.

I leave us with how Jesus answered the man who asked him a similar question as we are asking today

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them,“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:23-24


Note: please I'm trying to be careful not to put Scripture out of context just to make my point.
So I stand to be corrected: If I’ve made any mistakes please point them out to me through Scripture.

@Cyrexx, please I beg you. Don't derail this thread. We are not arguing about whether God is good or not. there are many threads for that. The concern of this thread is strictly about predestination and freewill using the Bible is our final authority.

Noted and heeded.

But i only responded to support my earlier contribution on predestination and freewill.

I guess i will just sit back and continue enjoying my popcorn and leave you guys to your bread, since you dont like my popcorn.

cyrexx: Noted and heeded.

But i only responded to support my earlier contribution on predestination and freewill.

I guess i will just sit back and continue enjoying my popcorn and leave you guys to your bread, since you dont like my popcorn.

Thanks man

Delafruita:
therez this thing christians do before cracking open the bible,they ask the holy spirit to teach and instruct.you should try it

Yea, it sure good to pray and always. At least it reminds u that this stuff is seriouse and error is damaging.
Buzugee's cursing is tiring really.

@buzugee
Guy reduce the F word. Seriousely it is minusing from ur efforts.
Peace

@op For me, d bible is not my final authority so i will not quote d bible here. But ur questn is quite simple to ans in a layman's way. Grace is d help we receive from God to enable us make proper use of our freewill in order to reach our destiny. D passage u quoted was not talking about certain people who are predestind. In fact we are all predestnd to b saved but the fact is dat because of our freewill we are not all going to make use of God's grace. So its just telling u dat God wants all to b saved by his grace but he is not going to force it on us but by making use of our freewill we shall get there. Tks

Ihedinobi:

You know, predestination as an eternal principle says nothing like that at all. It only declares God's right and responsibility to "organise" His Creation. You do it everytime you sort through your papers or working material. I know it quite intimately in my own work where I birth ideas that I know I will discard.

But predestination is just one side of the coin, just like I said earlier. Choice is the other. You are told that if you thirst, if you hunger, if you will have, if you believe, you will receive. Therefore, as far as our own side of things is concerned, we might as well not have been destined to a certain end before time. If we reach this way or that, that's what we'll get.

What I'm saying is that God has predestined, yes, as it is His prerogative to do, but we will come into our predetermined destinies (including your reading this comment, Delafruita) by the choices we make.

Oh, and Mr Anony agrees with some things: me...and the Bible too.

Mehn....where are our brothers?

you are confusing yourself even more.so god has predestined that my freewil will lead me to read this post?how does that even sound to you?sounds like hocus-pocus to me

Mr_Anony: @Cyrexx, please I beg you. Don't derail this thread. We are not arguing about whether God is good or not. there are many threads for that. The concern of this thread is strictly about predestination and freewill using the Bible is our final authority.

how did cyrexx derail the thread?i still think that summary of the bible is the best post on this thread.captures the entire essence of all arguments made and yet to be made in support of god

Delafruita:
how did cyrexx derail the thread?i still think that summary of the bible is the best post on this thread.captures the entire essence of all arguments made and yet to be made in support of god

you would think so seeing as you are a heathen lol

truthislight:
Yea, it sure good to pray and always. At least it reminds u that this stuff is seriouse and error is damaging.
Buzugee's cursing is tiring really.

@buzugee
Guy reduce the F word. Seriousely it is minusing from ur efforts.
Peace

hey Brotherrrrrr, its all love. We chastise and rebuke in love. scripture says 2 corinthians 11 vs 6[b] But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge.
[/b] you cant take it personal. its all in good fun.

buzugee: you would think so seeing as you are a heathen lol

you mean "earthen" as in earthen pot?

Delafruita:
how did cyrexx derail the thread?i still think that summary of the bible is the best post on this thread.captures the entire essence of all arguments made and yet to be made in support of god

Abi o, my brother, i just want to leave them alone so they wont say i'm disrepecting their religion.

thanx

Oops!

Romans8:29:30. A diff translation.

Vas 23.
"Because those he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his son, that he might be the first born among many brothers

Vas30
Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called, and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteouse.
Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified".

I dont think that the repeat use of the word destined is allowing for a clearer understanding of that Romans.
In the Op.

To me, people being destined for salvation makes rubbish of the order by christ to go and preach to people of all nations.
And make rubbish of Justice and freewill.

What sense is there in preaching to people that where not chosen to be save?

That scripture is refering to those that are mention in Revelation 20:5,6 as having part in the first resurrection, over this the second dead has no authority.
Why? Because they are with christ in heaven.

They are the ones that God first recognise, and they shear with christ what God had already foreordained for him.

Those people are diff from the ones mention in Revelation 20:11 to 13. If u like call it the 2nd resurrection.

So, those of Romans 8:29,30 are same at Revel 20:5,6.

All human have a chance of being save, it is an individual choice.

But those that fall into Romans 8:29,30 are ones that will have the privilege that God has foreordained for his son, that they be fashion like the son(Jesus)

Some word choice in some translating is to give credence to this tag as "saint".

If they were destined how come that the bible says that let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall?
If they have been destined how can they fall?

However, God approval of an individual has to do with the persons heart conditions. Isaiah 5:20 or u can say pure in heart.

So, we can also look at the foreordained in terms as a fixed Number to be fashion like the son.
Eg. A company needs to employ 20 people. Then, it can be said:
"this are the 20 people you wanted"
(it is not a reference to the individual but to the predetermined nos 20)
Revelation 14:3
Peace

Mr_Anony: First of All as regards the topic, I think I lean more towards the Arminian than the Calvinist view about predestination and freewill,I'll explain:


The first things I know about God is that He is ultimate, eternal, almighty, ever present, omniscient, He is just and He is merciful.

Now this is where our dilemma comes in:
if God knows the end from the beginning, which means he already predetermined that a particular number of people well be saved.
This view is evident when we read verses like;
“you do not choose me I chose you”, “before you were formed in your mother’s womb I knew you and has ordained you to be a prophet” etc.

But then again, God is just and has given each man a will of his own so that we can come to know him. The above statements seem to contradict God’s nature because if God knows everything how come he judges people since He already knows that they can’t help it. what is the use of freewill if one has absolutely no control over the future?

Now a common misconception about predestination and God’s omniscience is that the future is fixed and that time is just like a movie that God has already watched before so he knows exactly what is going to show up in the next scene and so as the actor, you’re not really doing anything new except playing out a script unable to control ourselves like puppets in the hands of a master puppeteer.

I don’t think this is the case. To me it is more like the omniscience of God resembles that of an infinitely intelligent chess master who is overseeing a large complex game of chess. From the first move he can predict every single consequence of the choices that will follow down to the end of the game so in a sense he has seen the whole movie before but in this case it doesn’t preclude the fact that the players are indeed making your own choices.

That said, what then is the election and those that are predestined.

Jesus says “without me you can do nothing”. We are sinners and our hearts are desperately wicked. (Jeremiah 17:9), but then in our sins Christ died for us (Romans 5:8 ).
The death and resurrection of Christ brought to us the Holy Spirit which has now been poured out upon all flesh (emphasis on “all flesh”). Therefore the holy spirit is available to everyone - sinner or saint - and He convicts us of sin. (John16:8 ). It is now up to us to decide to submit our will to Him (Romans 8:14). The Holy Spirit does not force us to believe against our will.

This is why I disagree strongly with the Calvinist because he assumes that God has a set of chosen people will be saved no matter what and will stay saved no matter what. i.e. you irresistible grace.

I don’t think that is true but one thing I am sure of is that once a man truly knows God he cannot unknow Him. He may reject him though and this is why the Bible says about those who pieced God and then turn around and trample His grace under foot have no atonement left for them (Hebrews10:26)

The beauty of God’s grace is that it allows us to have a direct relationship with God as a person.

God is not a grand puppeteer he’s more like a grand chessmaster. It don’t blame the grand chessmaster when you lose the game, you can only blame your poor choices.

I leave us with how Jesus answered the man who asked him a similar question as we are asking today

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them,“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:23-24


Note: please I'm trying to be careful not to put Scripture out of context just to make my point.
So I stand to be corrected: If I’ve made any mistakes please point them out to me through Scripture.

The last two bolded cleared up some difficulties for me. One brother of ours, T. Austin-Sparks, a man for whom I have enormous respect, tended to say things like, "now, don't ask me...", "I'm not going to explain..." about matters like this because of their sensitivity and all the controversy they generate. This is why taking astand on the issue of predestination and election scares me a little. But like I said, those last two bolded cleared up some major difficulties for me.

The first bolded is quite like how I see God. Permit me to continue in another post. I'm running out of typing space.

It just occured to me that we will always grope in the dark about Father's ways if we get away from defining them in the light of Love.

Predestination in the light of His Love must take into account the fact that Father loves everything He created and seeks only their good. This would mean that He wouldn't fix the choices of the intelligent beings He created. As God He could, but being Yah'weh, being Jesus Christ, He does not. Because it would negate Love ("charity...seeketh not her own". I therefore agree that it is not that God fixed only such and such for salvation and not others. I agree that He knew who would be saved and who wouldn't because, like you said, He is intelligent enough to see how each choice would play out, not because He had determined that these and not those would be saved.

Can people lose their salvation once they have been saved then? I had a hard time believing that they could because I know that like Romans 11:29 said, "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." But evidently while the giver of a gift may not take it back, the receiver could cast it off.

While typing this I remembered Jesus's parable about the man who bought a whole field for one pearl hidden in it. I wondered again if that didn't mean that He set out with certain people in mind to save, but again the answer of Love holds firm: He bought the whole field not just the pearl.

Mr Anony, much respect, bro.

Mmmm...there's the question of total depravity too, isn't there? Are we at all capable of reaching for God? I think your answer about the pouring out of the Spirit on all flesh covers that. He awakens us all, however deep under sin we're sold, to a consciousness of sin and a need to be saved. And our response to that decides whether or not we are indeed saved.

It would appear then that the words, "predestined" and "foreordained" should not be in the Bible then. I think not. Because if Father knew how each choice would play out, then indeed He knew that by reason of those choices, such and such would be saved and others would reject salvation. I believe that this is "foreknowing".
Now, if He went on to create knowing this, then that very act of creation would in the sense of our foregoing discourse "predestinate" everyone and foreordain such and such to be saved. The difference here is that Father does not in any sense violate our freewill. Our options remain so many and our freedom to choose this or that and reject this or that remains. That He knows that if we chose this this and that will result does not mean that we will choose that, we could still choose something else. I think instead that in His eternal counsels He allowed for every possible choice we eventually make and provided in every path we could choose some way of calling us back to Him. This means that He does want eveyone to be saved but He does not force everyone to be saved. As far as our free will goes, His Patience stretches farther (still agreeing with 1 Cor 13).

I go on to say that this means that there is not a man who will not be saved finally that does not actually actively reject salvation. That is, it is only such as reject salvation finally, not such as have never known it, that will end up unsaved.

Ihedinobi: It just occured to me that we will always grope in the dark about Father's ways if we get away from defining them in the light of Love.

Predestination in the light of His Love must take into account the fact that Father loves everything He created and seeks only their good. This would mean that He wouldn't fix the choices of the intelligent beings He created. As God He could, but being Yah'weh, being Jesus Christ, He does not. Because it would negate Love ("charity...seeketh not her own". I therefore agree that it is not that God fixed only such and such for salvation and not others. I agree that He knew who would be saved and who wouldn't because, like you said, He is intelligent enough to see how each choice would play out, not because He had determined that these and not those would be saved.

Can people lose their salvation once they have been saved then? I had a hard time believing that they could because I know that like Romans 11:29 said, "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." But evidently while the giver of a gift may not take it back, the receiver could cast it off.

While typing this I remembered Jesus's parable about the man who bought a whole field for one pearl hidden in it. I wondered again if that didn't mean that He set out with certain people in mind to save, but again the answer of Love holds firm: He bought the whole field not just the pearl.

Mr Anony, much respect, bro.

Mmmm...there's the question of total depravity too, isn't there? Are we at all capable of reaching for God? I think your answer about the pouring out of the Spirit on all flesh covers that. He awakens us all, however deep under sin we're sold, to a consciousness of sin and a need to be saved. And our response to that decides whether or not we are indeed saved.

Wow, thanks bro, you know funny enough, I have only looked at this issue from a fairness angle. I had not yet looked at it from the point of view of God's nature of love.

One thing I have come to learn about God is that God is a person and not a concept. It is when someone truly understands this that his/her christianity moves from religion to relationship. That's why when Christ talks about those who will come on the last day saying we did miracles in your name and Christ will say depart from me I never knew you (note He doesn't say I once knew you but you backslid).

To truly be born of God is to move out of the realm of concept to the realm of knowing God personally. I for one do not believe that if someone really gets born-again (mind you not some shoddy alter-call decision) that he/she can turn back from God.....unless the person stubbornly forces himself to reject God as in Hebrews 10:26.

It is like after meeting you and knowing who you are, I cannot "unknow" you to the point that I am now saying "Ihedinobi does not exist". At the very worst we quarrel and I can say "I hate Ihedinobi" but I can never truly believe that "Ihedinobi does not exist" and this is why when I hear someone say "I was I was once a Christian but now I am an atheist", I immediately think: "you are lying you never knew God".

The more I learn about God, the more I appreciate my existence and who He is. God is simply amazing.

Mr_Anony:

It is like after meeting you and knowing who you are, I cannot "unknow" you to the point that I am now saying "Ihedinobi does not exist". At the very worst we quarrel and I can say "I hate Ihedinobi" but I can never truly believe that "Ihedinobi does not exist" and this is why when I hear someone say "I was I was once a Christian but now I am an atheist", I immediately think: "you are lying you never knew God".

now you are inviting me to come in, you just bumped into me as i'm enjoying my popcorn jeje and this time aint no stopping me.

just wait.....

truthislight: truthislight: Romans8:29:30. A diff translation.

Vas 23.
"Because those he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his son, that he might be the first born among many brothers

Vas30
Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called, and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteouse.
Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified".

I dont think that the repeat use of the word destined is allowing for a clearer understanding of that Romans.
In the Op.

To me, people being destined for salvation makes rubbish of the order by christ to go and preach to people of all nations.
And make rubbish of Justice and freewill.

What sense is there in preaching to people that where not chosen to be save?

That scripture is refering to those that are mention in Revelation 20:5,6 as having part in the first resurrecting, over this the second dead has no authority.
Why? Because they are with christ in heaven.

Those people are diff from the ones mention in Revelation 20:11 to 13. If u like call it the 2nd resurrection.

So, those of Romans 8:29,30 are same at Revel 20:5,6.

All human have a chance of being save, it is an individual choice.

But those that fall into Romans 8:29,30 are ones that will have the privilege that God has foreordained for his son, that they be fashion like the son(Jesus)

Some word choice in some translating is to give credence to this tag as saint.

If they were destined how come that the bible says that let him that thinks he is standing be ware that he does not fall?
If they have been destined how can they fall?

However, God approval of an individual has to do with the persons heart conditions. Isaiah 5:20 or u can say pure in heart.

So, we can also look at the foreordained in terms as a fixed Number to be fashion like the son.
Eg. A company needs to employ 20 people. Then, it can be said:
"this are the 20 people you wanted"
(it is not a reference to the individual but to the predetermined nos 20)
Revelation 14:3
Peace

I think I followed you quite well and I think you are referring to the 144,000 in Revelations who will be firstfruits of God. I agree in the most part with you but when you say that only some will be fashioned like the Son, it means that you are saying that others won't be and I think that's not true.

If God has opened the doors for us, why then will He make some Christians more perfect than others if our following Christ is all about being perfect as God is perfect. We will all be fashioned like Christ.

I must confess, I don't know for sure what the 144,000 stand for exactly because I haven't studied Revelations indepth as such (actually I am wary about misinterpreting all the symbolism in the book). One thing I know for sure though is that no matter what, I can trust God to be fair.

cyrexx:

now you are inviting me to come in, you just bumped into me as i'm enjoying my popcorn jeje and this time aint no stopping me.

just wait.....

Lol, you are always welcome to come in, all I ask is that we keep the thread along the lines of God's grace, predestination and freewill. You've really been watching this thread like a hawk looking for the slightest provocation to jump in.

Ok to satisfy you and so as not to derail the thread, you can open another thread, quote the offending post and link it and I will join you there if you like. Is this a fair enough bargain for you?

how do you know a two-faced deluded liar who would go to any length to defend his weak imaginary god

he talks like this:

I was once a muslim but now i am an atheist: i dont care, you may or may not be a liar

i was once an atheist but now i am a christian: praise god, you are now in the truth

i was once an christian but now i am an atheist: you are liar, you never knew god

so what/who is god: i cant describe him though i talk to him everyday, i dont even know what his voice sounds like

what the hell....

Mr_Anony:
Lol, you are always welcome to come in, all I ask is that we keep the thread along the lines of God's grace, predestination and freewill. You've really been watching this thread like a hawk looking for the slightest provocation to jump in.

Ok to satisfy you and so as not to derail the thread, you can open another thread, quote the offending post and link it and I will join you there if you like. Is this a fair enough bargain for you?

so how is my former post NOT along the lines of God's grace, predestination and freewill, let me refresh:

Let us hear a short summary of the whole bible:

Many eons ago, an un-created omniscient (all-knowing) Spirit Being created some other spirit beings who in his infinite knowledge of the future (predestination), already knew that those spirit beings would piss him off (freewill). When they pissed him he sent them away only to create some more human beings that he knew would use their freewill to eventually piss him off again.
And when they did, he nearly killed off all of them, including innocent babies, and spared only eight. Many years later He selected the Jews as his own race and ignores the rest of humans he had created. He also sometimes orders his Jewish followers to murder every worshippers of non-Jewish deities, including women and children.

Finally, he could not think of a better way to rectify things other than to nail himself to a cross (in form of his son) and somehow say to people "see what you made me do to myself, you should be ashamed of yourselves, you hell-deserving scoundrels i shouldn't have created in the first place had i known better, I regret ever creating you cos your imaginations, which i already knew you would concieve, are always evil"

Mr_Anony:

Wow, thanks bro, you know funny enough, I have only looked at this issue from a fairness angle. I had not yet looked at it from the point of view of God's nature of love.

One thing I have come to learn about God is that God is a person and not a concept. It is when someone truly understands this that his/her christianity moves from religion to relationship. That's why when Christ talks about those who will come on the last day saying we did miracles in your name and Christ will say depart from me I never knew you (note He doesn't say I once knew you but you backslid).

To truly be born of God is to move out of the realm of concept to the realm of knowing God personally. I for one do not believe that if someone really gets born-again (mind you not some shoddy alter-call decision) that he/she can turn back from God.....unless the person stubbornly forces himself to reject God as in Hebrews 10:26.

It is like after meeting you and knowing who you are, I cannot "unknow" you to the point that I am now saying "Ihedinobi does not exist". At the very worst we quarrel and I can say "I hate Ihedinobi" but I can never truly believe that "Ihedinobi does not exist" and this is why when I hear someone say "I was I was once a Christian but now I am an atheist", I immediately think: "you are lying you never knew God".

The more I learn about God, the more I appreciate my existence and who He is. God is simply amazing.

You're on point, bro. The first bolded is a very good point to note. While I never question that Christians get stuck in their walk with God because they took their eyes off of Christ, I find it extremely difficult that going back is possible at all. For the reason that Jesus was not giving another parable when He said, "you must be born from above". I have come to know that spiritual birth is no metaphor. It says that the Christian is actually a spiritual birth product of God as much as any human being is the biological birth product of his parents, more even. If this is so, how do you dial back life? We know that people can come under arrest in their development toward maturity. That is, there are people who never really grow up even with increase in height and age. Sometimes it's a genetic disorder, mostly it's a refusal to let go one stage of life one got too comfortable in. I know the same thing happens spiritually. However, my point is, if Jesus denounces certain people, it's really gonna be because He never knew them...they were never His in the first place.

Second bolded. Mehn, that's really how I feel. I really doubt that the Life of Christ can die. I believe that a person can come under arrest and stall in their growth, like I said, but how about the 39th verse of the same chapter? I have the feeling that it's impossible to get unsaved. Or that if it is possible at all, it'll be so difficult as to happen perhaps only once (I imagine that'll be the story of the man of lawlessness) or maybe twice including Judas Iscariot. I don't know. How does one die out of the Family of God? That's where the puzzle lies for me. There's a passage I was trying to find but I'll probably be successful when I get back home to my own Bible. It said that those who left the Way were never truly among us in the first instance. Things like that make me think.