Ihedinobi: ^^ @5solas, I think I should give other commenters an opportunity to respond although I was the one that requested your views. Depending on how they answer, I'll come in later.

Thank you for giving your thoughts on this and thereby keeping your word.

Mr_Anony:
even after we have been sealed by the Holy Ghost, we are still not to grieve Him (we must put our wedding clothes on)
Irresistible grace says something along the lines of "once sealed, the Holy Spirit will compel you to wear your wedding garments".

5solas:
Can man make choices? Yes!Does he have a will?Yes. Does he have freewill? No.

5solas:
Man can make choices , and as far as he is concerned they are free, but he cannot act other than God wills and foreknows.

5solas:
Paul was converted without his seeking God,

5solas:
But as we know not before our conversion if we are chosen or not, we should cry out to Him for our salvation because to Him it belongs.

5solas: A lot of believers are wont to thump up ‘freewill’ whenever there is a mention of predestination. They feel uncomfortable by it. To some and also to some unbelievers, it seems a ‘cheap’ way to get to heaven. Imagine a person believing he will get to heaven simply because he was predestinated to! But if we think predestination a ‘cheap’ way to get to heaven, how about grace? It seems to me a ‘cheap’ way to get to heaven too. To think Christ died for you and took upon Himself the punishment due to you and with that offering you are perfected forever and He is able to save you completely. It is much easier for us believers to believe the doctrine of salvation by grace than to believe in the doctrine of predestination.
But that there is a predestination of everything that takes place and of salvation in particular , let us go into the Bible:
*We read in Eph 1:3-5 that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world
Having being predestinated ‘’unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will’’,
* Matt 11:
25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
*2Thess.2: 13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because[b] God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation[/b] through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth
*Rev. 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life
*1Thess.5: 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
From these verses it is clear also that there is a predestination to damnation, we may rightly infer it, but it is also clearly stated in the Bible:
*Rom.9: 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
*1Peter2: 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
*Jude 4 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
*Examples of predestination can be found in the Joseph story. He told his brothers,
Gen.50:20 ‘’ But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive’’.
*It was said of the sons of Isaac, "the elder shall serve the younger" and it was so.
*Judas betrayed Christ as prophesied and for thirty pieces of silver.
*Peter denied Christ thrice before the cock crowed.
*Peter was asked to go fishing and to look into the mouth of the first fish he catches and there he would find a coin to pay taxes with, and it was so!
*In the time of the judges, Barak was told he would not have the honour of killing Sisera,it would go to a woman, and it was so.

From all I have said about predestination, it should normally surprise me if they are people who still would argue there is no such thing, but I won’t be surprised for many of such persons already know the verses and still argue against it.
The teaching of predestination is supported by God’s foreknowledge. God knows how this world would end and it cannot end in any other way. His knowledge of future events is certain.
He says in Isaiah 46:9,10
“ Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:”…
God knows now how we all lived our lives , how we all died, who would go to heaven, or hell.
Can man make choices? Yes!Does he have a will?Yes. Does he have freewill? No.
Man can make choices , and as far as he is concerned they are free, but he cannot act other than God wills and foreknows. The heart of the king it is said, is in his hands “ as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will”.—Prov.21:1. He can restrain evil or permit evil.
Yet in all of this, we are exhorted to seek Him, we are to preach the gospel to all. If it was the intension of God to save all, all would be saved. He chose to save some and not all men. Men do not convert themselves, neither are they born again of themselves the Spirit of God makes the difference in who are saved and who are not. We do not find God, rather we are found of God Gal.4:9.
Paul was converted without his seeking God, it is a testimony of the fact that we are saved , not by “freewill” or anything in us but for something in God.
But as we know not before our conversion if we are chosen or not, we should cry out to Him for our salvation because to Him it belongs.
Christ did not die to give us an opportunity to save ourselves, He died to save as many as the “ Lord shall call” Acts2:39.

And as many as He saves can never be lost, for to save them was His determination and He did not die in vain.

Mr_Anony: @Ihedinobi,
I think you misread my argument. The point was that I was trying to show the difference between the called and the chosen. I was also trying to show how one after being born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit can still stubbornly refuse to be led by Him and willfully sin hence such a person will be thrown out into the outer darkness.

Now this brings me to "hell". When you describe hell as Nothing, the picture I get in my mind is that of blankness. I am absolutely sure that this is not what hell is. Hell may or may not literally be a lake of fire but one thing is sure it is a place of eternal separation from God and it is eternal torment. Nothing in scripture suggests to me that it is a place of alone-ness rather scripture paints a picture of dreadful torment

Mr_Anony: @Ihedinobi,
I think you misread my argument. The point was that I was trying to show the difference between the called and the chosen. I was also trying to show how one after being born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit can still stubbornly refuse to be led by Him and willfully sin hence such a person will be thrown out into the outer darkness.

Now this brings me to "hell". When you describe hell as Nothing, the picture I get in my mind is that of blankness. I am absolutely sure that this is not what hell is. Hell may or may not literally be a lake of fire but one thing is sure it is a place of eternal separation from God and it is eternal torment. Nothing in scripture suggests to me that it is a place of alone-ness rather scripture paints a picture of dreadful torment

Mr_Anony: @Ihedinobi
Now this brings me to "hell". When you describe hell as Nothing, the picture I get in my mind is that of blankness. I am absolutely sure that this is not what hell is. Hell may or may not literally be a lake of fire but one thing is sure it is a place of eternal separation from God and it is eternal torment. Nothing in scripture suggests to me that it is a place of alone-ness rather scripture paints a picture of dreadful torment

Mr_Anony: @Ihedinobi,
I think you misread my argument. The point was that I was trying to show the difference between the called and the chosen. I was also trying to show how one after being born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit can still stubbornly refuse to be led by Him and willfully sin hence such a person will be thrown out into the outer darkness.

truthislight: @5solas

But all u can do is bond every thing together and say it is predestination of humans. Hmmm!

Acts 4
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28[b] For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done[/b].

No wonder churches breed atheist in the thousand every day.

I cant west my time trying to help or argue with someone that has no conscience to see injustice in an effort to call himself a saint.

Rom.9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom.9

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Mr_Anony: @5solas, i think we are disagreeing on two almost entirely different things. I disagree with the calvinist view of irresistible grace because it is a grace that forces one to be saved and that is not scriptural while you disagree that a person accepts Christ of his own accord because it is not scriptural and suggests that the person obtained his salvation.
Let me point out something; I agree that we can do absolutely nothing of our own without the help of the Holy Spirit, Salvation is a gift of God's mercy.
What I don't agree with however is that once a person is saved, no matter what he does, the Holy Spirit will make him stay in line. i believe that a person can effectively resist the Holy Ghost and be truly lost.
Well I won't say much more for now, I'll look into this carefully and give a proper response in a bit

Zikkyy:
How can man make choices without freewill? How can man be said to possess a will if there is no freedom attached to it? How can you make choices if you cannot decide for yourself? If your choices are determine by a third party, then you are simply acting out his instructions.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Zikkyy:
Why should one rely on an interpretation that is not consistent with behaviors/actions and events we find in the bible? God can force his will on man (e.g. pharaoh), no issues with that, but it is not the norm. From the time of Adam, we see that God gave man the opportunity to decide. Abraham did not act out God's will when he agreed to sacrifice Isaac, Job's was not influenced,

Acts 4
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Zikkyy:

Jonah exercised his options (even though he was later forced to do it God's way ) e.t.c

Phil.2: 13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Zikkyy:

It was the other way round for Cornelius and Jailer in Acts 16. Just as men who did not seek God finds him so also will men that seek him. It was the same Paul that told his jailer that he just need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. If the Jailer is not exercising his freewill, whose[b] will[/b] is it then?
God converts. God saves.

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Zikkyy:
This is contradicting everything you've said before now. If we do not have the ability to make such decisions, how can one cry out to God?

5solas: :

Do you agree that at least some things are predestined? How can you tell which are predestined and which are not, if so?

Zikkyy:

Events could be pre-destined, but does it take away free-will? I think we are mixing things here. Dreaming of an event prior to it occurrence have nothing to do with freewill. It will happen if it is not within our power to change it.

5solas:
Is it a third party doing this post for you? And yet you could not have done this post if God willed otherwise.

5solas:
John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

5solas:




It necessarily takes away freewill.

However, the point of my post is that everything that happens is predestined.

5solas:
Lol. He wasn’t forced. He was made willing

5solas:
Phil.2: 13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

5solas:
'Will' is not equal to 'Freewill'.

The particular antinomy which concerns us here is the apparent opposition between divine sovereignty and human responsibility, or (putting it more biblically) between what God does as King and what He does as Judge. Scripture teaches that, as King, He orders and controls all things, human actions among them, in accordance with His own eternal purpose. Scripture also teaches that, as Judge, He holds every man responsible for the choices he makes and the courses of action he pursues. Thus hearers of the gospel are responsible for their reaction; if they reject the good news, they are guilty of unbelief. “He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed.” Again, Paul, entrusted with the gospel, is responsible for preaching it; if he neglects his commission, he is penalized for unfaithfulness. “Necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!” God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility are taught us side by side in the same Bible; sometimes, indeed, in the same text. Both are thus guaranteed to us by the same divine authority; both, therefore, are true. It follows that they must be held together, and not played off against each other. Man is a responsible moral agent, though he is also divinely controlled; man is divinely controlled, though he is also a responsible moral agent. God’s sovereignty is a reality, and man’s responsibility is a reality too. This is the revealed antinomy in terms of which we have to do our thinking about divine command and free-will.

To our finite minds, of course, the thing is inexplicable. It sounds like a contradiction, and our first reaction is to complain that it is absurd. Paul notices this complaint in Rornans 9: “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why does he [God] yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?” (Rom. 9:19). If, as our Lord, God orders all our actions, how can it be reasonable or right for Him to act also as our Judge, and condemn our shortcomings? Observe how Paul replies. He does not attempt to demonstrate the propriety of God’s action; instead, he rebukes the spirit of the question. “Nay but, 0 man, who are thou that repliest against God?” What the objector has to learn is that he, a creature and a sinner, has not right whatsoever to find fault with the revealed ways of God. Creatures are not entitled to register complaints about their Creator.7

This incomprehensible antinomy—God’s will, man’s will, and free will—occupies a large part of God’s truth. Does this subject have a message for ministers and Christians in this day of doctrinal indifference and ignorance? It most certainly does.

5solas:
It seems contradictory to me that God who chose some persons before He laid the foundation of the world, should also command that the gospel should be preached to all. But both are true.

5solas:
Acts 4
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

5solas:
We don’t know if we are of the number of the elects or not (before conversion), but we do know He commands us to repent and believe.

5solas:
However, the point of my post is that everything that happens is predestined.

Enigma: ^^^ Thanks bro and everyone on the thread; as someone reading most posts quietly in the background I have to say that i have thoroughly enjoyed the thread and the spirit in which it has been conducted.

Zikkyy:
ever considered the bible verse below (1 Corinthians 2:7-

Zikkyy:

It's not free oh can't speak for the others, but send my 10%

Ihedinobi:

hehehehehe you crook you