For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30

For sometime now we have been arguing back and forth with atheists, agnostics, muslims e.t.c. and frankly I am quite wearied by it. Perhaps now we should look a bit into the bible and discuss about freewill and predestination.

There are two major schools of thought on this;

1. The Calvinist: The Calvinist basically believes that because of the fall, man is totally depraved and unable to save himself but that God from the beginning has chosen the people who will be saved. These elect will not be able to resist God's grace even if they try.

2. The Arminian: The Arminian believes also that man is depraved because of the fall but that one can come to Christ by rational faith i.e. that people exercises their freewill to get saved. The Arminian also holds that the Holy Spirit can be effectually resisted.

These are just the basics of the two schools of thought.
To get more information on these, you may want to look up the following:

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

Please before anything, The bible is our final authority. Let us delve into this and God willing we may discover the nature of God's loving grace towards us.

Tell us which of the schools of thought you lean towards and why.

Great topic.

I lean towards Calvinism. In short, I consider myself a Calvinist. I agree with the Calvinists and consider their believes on salvation and all related concepts (grace, predestination, freewill, atonement, foreknowledge, e.t.c) to be consistent with the scriptures.

5solas:

Great topic.

I lean towards Calvinism. In short, I consider myself a Calvinist. I agree with the Calvinists and consider their believes on salvation and all related concepts (grace, predestination, freewill, atonement, foreknowledge, e.t.c) to be consistent with the scriptures.

Welcome, 5solas. Glad to have you here. Why do you agree with the Calvinist views and what Scriptures do you think they are consistent with?

truthislight:
To me, people being destined for salvation makes rubbish of the order by christ to go and preach to people of all nations.
And make rubbish of Justice and freewill.

Quite so.

That scripture is refering to those that are mention in Revelation 20:5,6 as having part in the first resurrection, over this the second dead has no authority.
Why? Because they are with christ in heaven.

They are the ones that God first recognise, and they shear with christ what God had already foreordained for him.

Those people are diff from the ones mention in Revelation 20:11 to 13. If u like call it the 2nd resurrection.

Here we have a whole new issue to thrash out.

All human have a chance of being save, it is an individual choice.

But those that fall into Romans 8:29,30 are ones that will have the privilege that God has foreordained for his son, that they be fashion like the son(Jesus)

I think we're brought right back to the first issue. Why does an impartial God do such a thing? And what is the point of salvation if it is not to be made into the image of His dear Son?

So, we can also look at the foreordained in terms as a fixed Number to be fashion like the son.
Eg. A company needs to employ 20 people. Then, it can be said:
"this are the 20 people you wanted"
(it is not a reference to the individual but to the predetermined nos 20)
Revelation 14:3
Peace

The hundred and forty four thousand. Like I said, there's a lot to thrash out here.


Like Anony does, I agree with you for the most part but there are shady areas in the whole thing. And there is want of description for the link between the passages in Revelation and the passage in Romans. And like I've pointed out, there's that issue with God's fairness (another quality of Love) where He picks some to come to full perfection in Christ and not others. If He can do that, then He should also be capable of picking some to be saved and not others. Both are inconsistent with His Character of Love. Of course, this is not to say that there is no or will not be a company of people that fit the description in Rev 14 and 20 any more than it is to say that there are no Christians in the vast multitudes of humankind.

I don't know if it's wise to take the matter up on this thread. But I think I'm ready to if you guys are up for it.

truthislight:
To me, people being destined for salvation makes rubbish of the order by christ to go and preach to people of all nations.
And make rubbish of Justice and freewill.

Quite so.

That scripture is refering to those that are mention in Revelation 20:5,6 as having part in the first resurrection, over this the second dead has no authority.
Why? Because they are with christ in heaven.

They are the ones that God first recognise, and they shear with christ what God had already foreordained for him.

Those people are diff from the ones mention in Revelation 20:11 to 13. If u like call it the 2nd resurrection.

Here we have a whole new issue to thrash out.

All human have a chance of being save, it is an individual choice.

But those that fall into Romans 8:29,30 are ones that will have the privilege that God has foreordained for his son, that they be fashion like the son(Jesus)

I think we're brought right back to the first issue. Why does an impartial God do such a thing? And what is the point of salvation if it is not to be made into the image of His dear Son?

So, we can also look at the foreordained in terms as a fixed Number to be fashion like the son.
Eg. A company needs to employ 20 people. Then, it can be said:
"this are the 20 people you wanted"
(it is not a reference to the individual but to the predetermined nos 20)
Revelation 14:3
Peace

The hundred and forty four thousand. Like I said, there's a lot to thrash out here.


Like Anony does, I agree with you for the most part but there are shady areas in the whole thing. And there is want of description for the link between the passages in Revelation and the passage in Romans. And like I've pointed out, there's that issue with God's fairness (another quality of Love) where He picks some to come to full perfection in Christ and not others. If He can do that, then He should also be capable of picking some to be saved and not others. Both are inconsistent with His Character of Love. Of course, this is not to say that there is no or will not be a company of people that fit the description in Rev 14 and 20 any more than it is to say that there are no Christians in the vast multitudes of humankind.

I don't know if it's wise to take the matter up on this thread. But I think I'm ready to if you guys are up for it.

5solas:

Great topic.

I lean towards Calvinism. In short, I consider myself a Calvinist. I agree with the Calvinists and consider their believes on salvation and all related concepts (grace, predestination, freewill, atonement, foreknowledge, e.t.c) to be consistent with the scriptures.

Just because u say so then we should take it to the bank, swallow every, every.
That is how they get people deceived.

truthislight:
Just because u say so then we should take it to the can, swallow every, every.
That is how they get people deceived.

Bro, take it easy na. Are we brethren or what? Does his believing that he was chosen to be saved take away from his salvation or from yours or anybody's? Our place is to exhort one another and correct one another in love and only in the place where we ourselves have been corrected. There's no fighting here.

Ihedinobi:

Bro, take it easy na. Are we brethren or what? Does his believing that he was chosen to be saved take away from his salvation or from yours or anybody's? Our place is to exhort one another and correct one another in love and only in the place where we ourselves have been corrected. There's no fighting here.

Thank u though.
Its just that very serious things people think it is a game.
People seems to 4get that Jesus said he will denied people.
Thanks.
Peace

That whosoever belive will be save the bible did not mention no here. Take heed that no man take that crown from u. So there is a crown for everybody it a personal decision to guard ur crown cos for me nothing will be able to steal it from me He says that He is going to prepare a place for me that i might go an dwell with Him He didn't name people or give no. It is for everyone that belief. there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. if it is for the chosen why did Christ come to die did he die for nothing? Why are we labouring ourselves if there is no gain THINK: BEWARE OF FALSE DOCTRINE.That whosoever belive will be save the bible did not mention no here. Take heed that no man take that crown from u. So there is a crown for everybody it a personal decision to guard ur crown cos for me nothing will be able to steal it from me He says that He is going to prepare a place for me that i might go an dwell with Him He didn't name people or give no. It is for everyone that belief. there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. if it is for the chosen why did Christ come to die did he die for nothing? Why are we labouring ourselves if there is no gain THINK: BEWARE OF FALSE DOCTRINE.That whosoever belive will be save the bible did not mention no here. Take heed that no man take that crown from u. So there is a crown for everybody it a personal decision to guard ur crown cos for me nothing will be able to steal it from me He says that He is going to prepare a place for me that i might go an dwell with Him He didn't name people or give no. It is for everyone that belief. there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. if it is for the chosen why did Christ come to die did he die for nothing? Why are we labouring ourselves if there is no gain THINK: BEWARE OF FALSE DOCTRINE.

And God said let us make man in our own image and likeness Genesis 1:26. If we accept that we are made in the image and likeness of God then we are gods on earth with our own will Psalm 82:6 - "ye are gods,you are all sons of the most high". I think God chooses to stand by the will of our choices. Perhaps the depth of our understanding of the power given to us as gods is limited.

lets look at Adam. He could eat from all other trees except a tree Genesis 2:16-17. We can begin to ask why did God put that tree in the garden when he knew they will be tempted? was it an exam they were to pass? and if they had passed it what would have been their reward? eternal life?. Adam chose to disobey God yet God did not interfere. Even Lucifer disobeyed God yet he allowed it. This should tell you the strength of choice in the sight of God.

It is also important to know that the two examples above Adam and Lucifer who chose to disobey God had a personal relationship with God.Genesis 3:8 "Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the lord as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day and they hid from the lord God among the trees of the garden".Isaiah 14;12-13 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" Apparently angels also have a will of their own.

The choice of rejecting God comes as a result of wanting to be the god of your own life even though you did not make yourself.

So all humans have a freewill to accept salvation of Jesus Christ, examine his teachings if they be true and fair.

andromida: And God said let us make man in our own image and likeness Genesis 1:26. If we accept that we are made in the image and likeness of God then we are gods on earth with our own will Psalm 82:6 - "ye are gods,you are all sons of the most high". I think God chooses to stand by the will of our choices. Perhaps the depth of our understanding of the power given to us as gods is limited.

lets look at Adam. He could eat from all other trees except a tree Genesis 2:16-17. We can begin to ask why did God put that tree in the garden when he knew they will be tempted? was it an exam they were to pass? and if they had passed it what would have been their reward? eternal life?. Adam chose to disobey God yet God did not interfere. Even Lucifer disobeyed God yet he allowed it. This should tell you the strength of choice in the sight of God.

It is also important to know that the two examples above Adam and Lucifer who chose to disobey God had a personal relationship with God.Genesis 3:8 "Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the lord as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day and they hid from the lord God among the trees of the garden".Isaiah 14;12-13 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" Apparently angels also have a will of their own.

The choice of rejecting God comes as a result of wanting to be the god of your own life even though you did not make yourself.

So all humans have a freewill to accept salvation of Jesus Christ, examine his teachings if they be true and fair.

Why, thank you, sis, for showing up. I'd started to wonder if there aren't any female believers on nairaland.

As to your comment, you're right on the money. And that bolded part, oh, so true! And yes, you're right, human beings aren't the only creatures gifted with free will. Angels were too or else there would never have been a Satan.

@Ihedinobi

Welcome, 5solas. Glad to have you here. Why do you agree with the Calvinist views and what Scriptures do you think they are consistent with?

Thanks.

Let me say a little about how I came upon Calvinism.
When I became born again, I tried to find justification for the beliefs we hold as Christians. beliefs like Christ being the only way,His deity,the trinity e.t.c . I was satisfied by the answers I got (through reading of the Bible of course). But for the teaching that a believer can lose salvation (Arminianism), I found no justification. It stuck out from the other teachings like a sore thumb.It countered the teaching on assurance and made nonsense of it. I came to the point where I had to choose whether to believe what I was reading from the Bible (that Arminianism was not founded on scripture)or continue to believe like all about me that Arminianism was true. I chose to believe what I read in the Bible.

@Ihedinobi

Why do you agree with the Calvinist views and what Scriptures do you think they are consistent with?

Let us look at predestination, for example. It is opposed by Arminians as you can clearly see from this thread. Sometimes they give it a spin. Calvinists affirm it, see how The Bible supports them in the passage below:

1 ¶ Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
9 ¶ When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
13 ¶ And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying[b], Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
16 ¶ Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
19 ¶ But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.
22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.[/b]

---Matthew 2

Can we believe in the fulfillment of prophesy without believing the events concerning them to be predetermined?

I consider this passage one of my favourite passages.

5solas: @Ihedinobi



Let us look at predestination, for example. It is opposed by Arminians as you can clearly see from this thread. Sometimes they give it a spin. Calvinists affirm it, see how scripture support them in the passage below:



Can we believe in the fulfillment of prophesy without believing the events concerning them to be predetermined?

I consider this passage one of my favourite passages.

the issue is not about Jesus christ that was prophesied that he will come from heaven, but about human.

truthislight:

the issue is not about Jesus christ that was prophesied that he will come from heaven, but about human.

I will come back to the above post later,God willing.

Meanwhile,how about the case of Simeon unto whom it was revealed that he should not see death until he sees Christ?

How about John who was told the manner he was to die to glorify God?

How about the interpretation of Pharoah's baker and butler's dreams that came to pass as interpreted?

I could go on and on.

5solas:

I will come back to the above post later,God willing.

Meanwhile,how about the case of Simeon unto whom it was revealed that he should not see death until he sees Christ?

How about John who was told the manner he was to die to glorify God?

How about the interpretation of Pharoah's baker and butler's dreams that came to pass as interpreted?

I could go on and on.

mr Anony, come and do ur work, u are the op.
Tell this guy that we are not contesting prophesies and fulfilment here, but the understanding/explanation of the book of Romans 8;29,30.

truthislight:

mr Anony, come and do ur work, u are the op.
Tell this guy that we are not contesting prophesies and fulfilment here, but the understanding/explanation of the book of Romans 8;29,30.

Lol. Are we not talking about predestination? Must we restrict ourselves to the text above? More so when you question the KJV rendering?

@Annoy
Ur reference scripture is from one translation.
Unless u are saying that the word "destiny" is a greek word.
Do all translators accept that the word use there should be predestination?

Do you agree that at least some things are predestined? How can you tell which are predestined and which are not, if so?

5solas:

Lol. Are we not talking about predestination? Must we restrict ourselves to the text above? More so when you question the KJV rendering?



Do you agree that at least some things are predestined? How can you tell which are predestined and which are not, if so?

guy, the answer to ur Q is very clear.

Isaiah 9;6 a child is born, and a child is given, and is names shall be called,.......

That is very clear.

When things are destined in the bible it is very clear, but not human in generall that christians are ask to preach to in all the earth.

Try and read my post again.
Ur interest is not bad, but ensure that the understanding agrees with other parts of the bible Genesis to Revelation.
Peace

truthislight:

mr Anony, come and do ur work, u are the op.
Tell this guy that we are not contesting prophesies and fulfilment here, but the understanding/explanation of the book of Romans 8;29,30.

Actually my brother, prophecies relate to predestination..........and please oh, I am not some kind of thread policeman but it would be nice if we all stayed on topic. So far, I think 5solas isn't out of line.

5solas: @Ihedinobi
Thanks.

Let me say a little about how I came upon Calvinism.
When I became born again, I tried to find justification for the beliefs we hold as Christians. beliefs like Christ being the only way,His deity,the trinity e.t.c . I was satisfied by the answers I got (through reading of the Bible of course).[b] But for the teaching that a believer can lose salvation (Arminianism), I found no justification. It stuck out from the other teachings like a sore thumb.[/b]It countered the teaching on assurance and made nonsense of it. I came to the point where I had to choose whether to believe what I was reading from the Bible (that Arminianism was not founded on scripture)or continue to believe like all about me that Arminianism was true. I chose to believe what I read in the Bible.

Hmm, first of all, just to clarify something, I am simply a christian. I don't consider myself calvinist or arminian though I think I lean more towards the arminian point of view.
The highlighted part about a believer losing His salvation is very biblical. If you look at the parable of the sower, "he that thinketh he stand take heed lest he fall", or when Peter says to make your election sure in 2Peter 1:10 and in Revelations 2:4 when Christ calls the Ephesian church to return to her first love, you see that people actually can lose their salvation. The Irresistible grace dogma of the calvinist is precisely what I don't agree with because Irresistable grace to me is no longer grace but compulsion.

Somewhere in the thread you talk about prophecies being impossible without predestination. We can delve into that further but before that I'll ask you to read where my my position is on this so that you can give me a rebuttal in places where we don't agree. I'll paste my post here and you can read it and Ihedinobi's posts as well (he looks at it from the viewpoint of God's loving nature which is very interesting).

Perhaps you can point out places that deviate from scripture and we can work from there:

Mr_Anony: First of All as regards the topic, I think I lean more towards the Arminian than the Calvinist view about predestination and freewill,I'll explain:


The first things I know about God is that He is ultimate, eternal, almighty, ever present, omniscient, He is just and He is merciful.

Now this is where our dilemma comes in:
if God knows the end from the beginning, which means he already predetermined that a particular number of people well be saved.
This view is evident when we read verses like;
“you do not choose me I chose you”, “before you were formed in your mother’s womb I knew you and has ordained you to be a prophet” etc.

But then again, God is just and has given each man a will of his own so that we can come to know him. The above statements seem to contradict God’s nature because if God knows everything how come he judges people since He already knows that they can’t help it. what is the use of freewill if one has absolutely no control over the future?

Now a common misconception about predestination and God’s omniscience is that the future is fixed and that time is just like a movie that God has already watched before so he knows exactly what is going to show up in the next scene and so as the actor, you’re not really doing anything new except playing out a script unable to control ourselves like puppets in the hands of a master puppeteer.

I don’t think this is the case. To me it is more like the omniscience of God resembles that of an infinitely intelligent chess master who is overseeing a large complex game of chess. From the first move he can predict every single consequence of the choices that will follow down to the end of the game so in a sense he has seen the whole movie before but in this case it doesn’t preclude the fact that the players are indeed making their own choices.

That said, what then is the election and those that are predestined.

Jesus says “without me you can do nothing”. We are sinners and our hearts are desperately wicked. (Jeremiah 17:9), but then in our sins Christ died for us (Romans 5:8 ).
The death and resurrection of Christ brought to us the Holy Spirit which has now been poured out upon all flesh (emphasis on “all flesh”). Therefore the holy spirit is available to everyone - sinner or saint - and He convicts us of sin. (John16:8 ). It is now up to us to decide to submit our will to Him (Romans 8:14). The Holy Spirit does not force us to believe against our will.

This is why I disagree strongly with the Calvinist because he assumes that God has a set of chosen people will be saved no matter what and will stay saved no matter what. i.e. you irresistible grace.

I don’t think that is true but one thing I am sure of is that once a man truly knows God he cannot unknow Him. He may reject him though and this is why the Bible says about those who have tasted God and then turn around and trample His grace under foot have no atonement left for them (Hebrews10:26)

The beauty of God’s grace is that it allows us to have a direct relationship with God as a person.

God is not a grand puppeteer he’s more like a grand chessmaster. It don’t blame the grand chessmaster when you lose the game, you can only blame your poor choices.

I leave us with how Jesus answered the man who asked him a similar question as we are asking today

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them,“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:23-24


Note: please I'm trying to be careful not to put Scripture out of context just to make my point.
So I stand to be corrected: If I’ve made any mistakes please point them out to me through Scripture.

My personal experience of predictive dreams has led me to the (perhaps seemingly absurd) conviction that some experiences and events can hardly be avoided.

Mr_Anony:
Hmm, first of all, just to clarify something, I am simply a christian. I don't consider myself calvinist or arminian though I think I lean more towards the arminian point of view.
The highlighted part about a believer losing His salvation is very biblical. If you look at the parable of the sower, "he that thinketh he stand take heed lest he fall", or when Peter says to make your election sure in 2Peter 1:10 and in Revelations 2:4 when Christ calls the Ephesian church to return to her first love, you see that people actually can lose their salvation. The Irresistible grace dogma of the calvinist is precisely what I don't agree with because Irresistable grace to me is no longer grace but compulsion.

Somewhere in the thread you talk about prophecies being impossible without predestination. We can delve into that further but before that I'll ask you to read where my my position is on this so that you can give me a rebuttal in places where we don't agree. I'll paste my post here and you can read it and Ihedinobi's posts as well (he looks at it from the viewpoint of God's loving nature which is very interesting).

Perhaps you can point out places that deviate from scripture and we can work from there:

I quite agree with you bro even with my difficulty in the issue. However, the reason of my difficulty with that possibility of loss of salvation is something like 1 John 2:19 and Hebrews 10:39. What are your thoughts on those passages?

Ihedinobi:

I quite agree with you bro even with my difficulty in the issue. However, the reason of my difficulty with that possibility of loss of salvation is something like 1 John 2:19 and Hebrews 10:39. What are your thoughts on those passages?

You will notice that after that passage in hebrews the next talks of faith. Our faith will be tried and along the line some will lose faith. Judas Iscariot lost faith, even Peter denied Christ at a point yet was restored. Now the case of Judas is a good case for freewill or predestination to betray Christ in fulfillment of the scriptures.

For without faith it is impossible to please God.Heb 11:6 The believe in Christ itself is an act of faith and only those who have this faith and are able to hold on to it to the saving of the soul despite trials of knowledge,hardship can make it to eternal life. The passage goes on to explain that faith without works is dead. Works here is/are obedience to the commandments of God.

Ihedinobi:

I quite agree with you bro even with my difficulty in the issue. However, the reason of my difficulty with that possibility of loss of salvation is something like 1 John 2:19 and Hebrews 10:39. What are your thoughts on those passages?

Bros, I've had a look at the verses. Permit me to type a response much later (probably late tonight) I'm kind of busy at the moment.



By the way I buzzed your phone yesterday but it was switched off

Mr_Anony:

Bros, I've had a look at the verses. Permit me to type a response much later (probably late tonight) I'm kind of busy at the moment.



By the way I buzzed your phone yesterday but it was switched off

Sure, take your time, I can wait. I'm sorry you didn't reach me. My batteries were flat (happens pretty often too, but I'll go easier on them from now on). So I charged them overnight. I hope you can call again.

andromida:

You will notice that after that passage in hebrews the next talks of faith. Our faith will be tried and along the line some will lose faith. Judas Iscariot lost faith, even Peter denied Christ at a point yet was restored. Now the case of Judas is a good case for freewill or predestination to betray Christ in fulfillment of the scriptures.

For without faith it is impossible to please God.Heb 11:6 The believe in Christ itself is an act of faith and only those who have this faith and are able to hold on to it to the saving of the soul despite trials of knowledge,hardship can make it to eternal life. The passage goes on to explain that faith without works is dead. Works here is/are obedience to the commandments of God.

On a certain level I think I get your "faith" explanation. But on another it does sound a little like our Christian walk is a probation of sorts. How can that be? Is our continued possession of the Holy Spirit dependent on how we shape up such that if we mess up we could fail to attain to the gift of eternal life? Is it still a gift if we strive and work for it? Where does grace come in in your position? I feel like I'm not getting a very coherent picture in what you said, but it could be my fault.

What about the verse in John's letter? Any thoughts on it?

Deep Sight:
My personal experience of predictive dreams has led me to the (perhaps seemingly absurd) conviction that some experiences and events can hardly be avoided.

If God had said he will send his son Jesus, it was necessary for him to see to it that satan did not derail it though he satan tried to.

So, what do u expect satan to do if he inspired a vision?
Fold his hands and not follow it up to ensure fulfilment?

That satan can also inspire visions and ensured it comes true, should we now conclude that God has destined every thing?
Both satan's actions should all be tag as proof of God predetermination of things.

What do u think satan's intent are if not to deceive?

Afterall i saw where the bible says he rules the world.
Peace.

Ihedinobi:

On a certain level I think I get your "faith" explanation. But on another it does sound a little like our Christian walk is a probation of sorts. How can that be? Is our continued possession of the Holy Spirit dependent on how we shape up such that if we mess up we could fail to attain to the gift of eternal life? Is it still a gift if we strive and work for it? Where does grace come in in your position? I feel like I'm not getting a very coherent picture in what you said, but it could be my fault.

What about the verse in John's letter? Any thoughts on it?

on John's letter it is important to start from the beginning of 1john 2 to the end and infact to the end of 1st John. 1 john 2:2 And he himself is the propitations for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the world. This is grace because we did nothing to warrant this sacrifice, we did not ask for it but God in his infinite mercy and love saw a need to reconcile us to himself, and continuing we are encouraged to keep the commandments of God by this we know we are in him. Reading further you find him admonishing us not to love the world. The love of the world will make you choose the world rather than God, you cannot serve two masters you have to choose one God or the world this is freewill.

I believe it is possible to be seduced away from the love of God by the lusts of the flesh despite having faith in God and his love for us. The prodigal son is a good example of this. Accepting the free gift of salvation is not enough obeying the commandments of God is also paramount to the success of our walk in Jesus Christ otherwise we kid ourselves. Matthew 22:37-39 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.This is the first and greatest commandment.And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

You ask if our continued possession dependent on how we shape up? Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed unto the day of redemption.I believe grieve here is used in the context of hurting someone,offending,inflicting injury.Therefore it is possible for the holy spirit of God to depart from even those who have received the light of God and become empty.


Is it still a gift if we strive and work for it? Accepting the gift is one thing, staying in the race is another thing.When you receive gift you need to stay in the grace by abiding in Jesus Christ. Apostle paul compared it to a race,a fight,a wrestle.2 timothy 4:7 "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith".John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Again you see Jesus telling us to abide in him,obey his teachings.

I think the misunderstanding here is thinking we can work for salvation. NO we cannot work for salvation we can only accept it or reject it however in accepting it we need to submit to God and in submission we become obedient,in obedience we birth faith. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

hello, guys, pls on a more seroius note:

can someone explain this thing about sin against Holy Ghost; they say it is unforgivable.

what does it mean?

if the person repents, does it mean he has been predestinated to perish forever in hell no matter what he does, even if he eventually repents.

that question used to bother me when i was still a christian long time ago.

infact it was one of the major absurdities in Christianity that makes no sense to me, because then i felt i have committed this sin.

pls no sarcasm intended, i'm seroius.

any concerned christians in the house?

^ Cyrexx, I believe our discussions on the matters of predestination and free will will eventually touch on it. I would have addressed it even a little right now but it would jeopardize the coherence of the thread. In the submission I'm preparing for my next post, I'll touch it.

Mr_Anony:
Hmm, first of all, just to clarify something, I am simply a christian. I don't consider myself calvinist or arminian though I think I lean more towards the arminian point of view.

I am in agreement with this sentiment:

I should not take it at all amiss to be called a Calvinist[b] for distinctions sake[/b] though I utterly disclaim a dependence on Calvin-J. Edwards.

The highlighted part about a believer losing His salvation is very biblical. If you look at the parable of the sower, "he that thinketh he stand take heed lest he fall", or when Peter says to make your election sure in 2Peter 1:10 and in Revelations 2:4 when Christ calls the Ephesian church to return to her first love, you see that people actually can lose their salvation. The Irresistible grace dogma of the calvinist is precisely what I don't agree with because Irresistable grace to me is no longer grace but compulsion.

The verses below strongly disagree with the notion of a believer losing salvation:

Eph.1:3
3¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph.4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Somewhere in the thread you talk about prophecies being impossible without predestination. We can delve into that further but before that I'll ask you to read where my my position is on this so that you can give me a rebuttal in places where we don't agree. I'll paste my post here and you can read it and Ihedinobi's posts as well (he looks at it from the viewpoint of God's loving nature which is very interesting).
Perhaps you can point out places that deviate from scripture and we can work from there:

Thanks a lot , I am quite impressed with your posts. I will do that.

cyrexx: hello, guys, pls on a more seroius note:

can someone explain this thing about sin against Holy Ghost; they say it is unforgivable.

what does it mean?

if the person repents, does it mean he has been predestinated to perish forever in hell no matter what he does, even if he eventually repents.

that question used to bother me when i was still a christian long time ago.

infact it was one of the major absurdities in Christianity that makes no sense to me, because then i felt i have committed this sin.

pls no sarcasm intended, i'm seroius.

any concerned christians in the house?

Guy. How can you sin against the holy spirit when u hardly have gotten the full gist of what the bible says?
U are very far from those that can commit such sin.

Why did i say that?
To explain i have to use the jewish religiouse leaders of Jesus day that committed that sin as an example.

This people have a complete knowledge of the law, they know that a messiah was coming and there were prophesies and calculation to that end.

But when he came because he did not agree with the wrongs they were doing they rejected him, even though they have proved that God sent him.
They also out of Greed for there possition and the fear of the Romans rejected the messiah, the son of God.

This, like u can see is a clear case of deliberately denying God or rejecting him for selfish reason and not out of ignorancy.

So, when one has come to a complete knowledge of the truth (Gods word) and then DELIBERATELY rejects the truth or denied it. That is a seriouse matter.

But u? Ur guestions on this thread shows u never knew what u were doing.
See, apostle paul never knew what he was doing even though he killed stephen. So, he never committed the unforgiveable sin.
Peace

First of All as regards the topic, I think I lean more towards the Arminian than the Calvinist view about predestination and freewill,I'll explain:


The first things I know about God is that He is ultimate, eternal, almighty, ever present, omniscient, He is just and He is merciful.

Now this is where our dilemma comes in:
if God knows the end from the beginning, which means he already predetermined that a particular number of people well be saved.
This view is evident when we read verses like;
“you do not choose me I chose you”, “before you were formed in your mother’s womb I knew you and has ordained you to be a prophet” etc.

But then again, God is just and has given each man a will of his own so that we can come to know him. The above statements seem to contradict God’s nature because if God knows everything how come he judges people since He already knows that they can’t help it. what is the use of freewill if one has absolutely no control over the future?

You assume here that we have freewills, we have wills, yes, but not free ones.

Now a common misconception about predestination and God’s omniscience is that the future is fixed and that time is just like a movie that God has already watched before so he knows exactly what is going to show up in the next scene and so as the actor, you’re not really doing anything new except playing out a script unable to control ourselves like puppets in the hands of a master puppeteer.

I don’t think this is the case. To me it is more like the omniscience of God resembles that of an infinitely intelligent chess master who is overseeing a large complex game of chess. From the first move he can predict every single consequence of the choices that will follow down to the end of the game so in a sense he has seen the whole movie before but in this case it doesn’t preclude the fact that the players are indeed making their own choices.

You have rightly observed above, God knowing the end from the beginning, this militates against what you are saying now.

That said, what then is the election and those that are predestined.

Jesus says “without me you can do nothing”. We are sinners and our hearts are desperately wicked. (Jeremiah 17:9), but then in our sins Christ died for us (Romans 5:8 ).
The death and resurrection of Christ brought to us the Holy Spirit which has now been poured out upon all flesh (emphasis on “all flesh”). Therefore the holy spirit is available to everyone - sinner or saint - and He convicts us of sin. (John16:8 ). It is now up to us to decide to submit our will to Him (Romans 8:14). The Holy Spirit does not force us to believe against our will.

This is why I disagree strongly with the Calvinist because he assumes that God has a set of chosen people will be saved no matter what and will stay saved no matter what. i.e. you irresistible grace.

I don’t think that is true but one thing I am sure of is that once a man truly knows God he cannot unknow Him. He may reject him though and this is why the Bible says about those who have tasted God and then turn around and trample His grace under foot have no atonement left for them (Hebrews10:26)

The beauty of God’s grace is that it allows us to have a direct relationship with God as a person.

God is not a grand puppeteer he’s more like a grand chessmaster. It don’t blame the grand chessmaster when you lose the game, you can only blame your poor choices.

I leave us with how Jesus answered the man who asked him a similar question as we are asking today

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them,“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:23-24

I will simply state that it is clear that God chose some people. Why else would the scripture talk of anyone being chosen at all. Is it not laughable to say God chose all? If He chose all, then He chose none.

Note: please I'm trying to be careful not to put Scripture out of context just to make my point.
So I stand to be corrected: If I’ve made any mistakes please point them out to me through Scripture.

I am impressed by your understanding and sincerely hope to learn a thing or two from you at least.