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Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 11:30pm On Jan 31, 2013

LemonBoy1: My bros, for d Paul's quotation i advice u read d passage again begining 4rm d first verse of d chapter, then u'l understand dt d spirit he meant was'nt he's real self. Paul was a very educated man, if he meant his real self he would'nt av said "The Spirit" ! (his own/independent spirit)

I know you'll say that it was God's spirit that Paul was talking about and if that's your claim then OK. I accept it. I personally choose to believe that "God's spirit" as Paul put it is in everybody just that some people don't know this and can't access it

LemonBoy1: About u denying dt u neva agreed dat human mst plan, pls re-read ur previous post.

Words subtly used make all the difference. Since we are calling it Spirit now then let's say that what I said was Spirit does no planning concerning the future along with worrying and fearing it and I maintain that. the kind of plan I understand you to be talking about are things like How to perform minor tasks. I feel this better fall under the category of making decisions but let's just leave them as a different kind of plan from things like 'What I want to be in 20 years"

LemonBoy1: In ur 3rd paragraph lies another confusion. U had initialy established ego as a powerful entity, a deciever of man, dt leads man into extremities in order to b better than others, etc, bt nw u av turned ego into smfin veri good to man

I always said that the ego has its purpose which it does perfectly. i don't know what you view as good or bad but I know that the ego does what its supposed to do well which is survive.
In the process of survival the ego might get so strong and lead people to extremities that other people's egos would view as bad however I just view it as a different outcome.
So yes I maintain that the ego deceives in the sense that it presents itself as you when it is just something or a tool you have and yes a strong enough ego can lead man to extremities. But all these don't make the ego bad. It is still serving its purpose perfect [In line with re-reading my post I know I said the ego isn't perfect but what I mean is that all views of imperfection come from the ego so it is the ego that brings what we perceive as imperfections when they don't measure up with its expectations]

LemonBoy1: (positive nd negative ego i guess). Also, introduced another idea, d Soul. Dt ds soul is "good" as relates to d ego (+ve or -ve) nd u recommend a synergy of d Soul and d Ego. If d soul begins to work through d ego, den it (ego) is no longer an "ego" again (as it looses all its might to d soul) inother words, ego will leave entirely, nd we knw dat absolute extinction of ego is nt realistic . Ur examples here confirms it too

All I said was that there should be a distinction between the ego and spirit. [Let's call it spirit now in line with the usage above]

I tried to explain that some people who get to realize their spirit nature have a very strong ego that they now attach their spirit to the ego so that even when they are able to make their spirit leave their physical body they still see their spirit in the form of a human shape [The spirit can take any form and should be naturally formless]. When Paul said He said that he was caught up in the third heavens. I don't know what Paul meant by third heavens but I know Paul could separate his spirit from his body if what He said above was true.

Finally if the ego loses all its might to the spirit then yes the ego wouldn't exist again or it might be transformed to something else [I don't know as I haven't done it before] but The Buddha described this state and called it Nirvana. That is the state where the ego doesn't exist again and at that point you don't have any identity except the identity of everything. So you would paradoxically be everything, something and nothing [I don't care to explain this further. It's unexplainable. only yourself can explain it to yourself]

But the state of nirvana aside, if one realizes the ego and the spirit and can separate them and make use of the ego for "positive" outcomes then that's good. For example you could call me a fool and then my ego swings into action and starts telling me things like "who's LemonBoy1 to call me a fool?" "Let's make him pay so He wouldn't do this again" " Does He even know who I am and what I have gone through?" and so on. In that case you've insulted my ego and if I don't realize this I'll allow my ego to make me do something stupid. But once I realize what's going on half-way, I'll just put an end to it. Once you recognize the ego, One of the ways to weaken the ego is humility.
When I say weaken it the point is so it wouldn't control you but remains the tool its supposed to be. You should control it

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 9:36pm On Jan 31, 2013

LemonBoy1: bros, u av said well. U call d spirit Paul was refering to Ego. Accoding to ur explanation of ego, i undastand dat it mks man want to becm beta dn others esp to control d powers of other, in otherwords, crave 4 power. Bt in ds Paul story, u r nt korect. D humbly nd meek life of Paul (during nd after ds declaration) totaly negates ur definition of Ego, it is entirely opp.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. I called the spirit Paul was referring to as his real self while the flesh He referred to as always trying to interfere as the ego. Yes I meant the entire opposite from the way you understood it

Good enough, u nw agree dat "man actualy does plan" , i agree wit ur "better than befor or every one else purpose of plan". Bt its nt always d case (i mean plan 4 progress relative to others nd 1ns presnt state). 1 might meet a pesn in dire need (say sickness), d natural instinct of man (evn babies) would b to help nd begin to source 4 help materials, in sourcing 4 it, he'l hv 2 plan so to get them in due time else d sick pesn dies, nw dats nt an "ego driven plan" , is it?

No. No it is not

Bt u mk ds ego thing animate. As if it has its own will, mind. As if it thinks, as if its a complex being such dat d natural powers of man is weak towards it. Good nd fine, d ego of man tells him lies nd decieves him (evn wen he helps d sick or hungry). Ds ego is entirely bad nd hates man bt stil resides in him. Man on his own knws nothing. Man does'nt evn knw y he is here in d first place. Man does'nt want to kip surviving on earth (inother words, man does'nt willingly flee 4rm an approaching hungry lion for instance, its his ego dt prompts him). Bros, ur definition 4 ego gvs absolute disregard 4 Man, it relegates man to being js a vessle 4 d ego to exist nd nothing more. Therefore, Man hs no future (ego does), man does nt knw y he is here (ego does), man does'nt think or knw anything at al (ego does) inother words, u exist js because ur ego wants to exist. Wat a powerful ego

I think you misunderstand me. Lets say that there is a container I'll call the body. The body should be occupied by a being that transcends it and can leave it at will and so on. However this is uncommon knowledge. So along side this being that occupies the body [Let's call it a soul for easiness sake] The body starts developing the ego. The ego is so integrated with the body that very soon man is only aware of the body/ego and no longer aware of the soul. Soon all you are aware of is the ego and you know the ego to be yourself. The ego isn't bad and doesn't hate you afterall the ego is still you [in a sense since it is from you] and the ego still serves its purpose perfectly. It makes you want to stay here for as long as possible and learn and do as much as possible while here and that isn't bad. But an alternative lifestyle [A better one in my view] is to realize the soul and also operate from its reality.

Many people who get to realize their soul already have an extremely strong ego. that makes them associate the soul in them with the ego and mix the two up and the soul then operates from the ego too. For example people who learn to disassociate their soul from their body disassociate their ego too so they see their soul as a body with the same shape as the physical body and so on but they are not and they cannot be the same thing. The ego doesn't survive death but the eternal being in you does. When you die if you had operated from your ego all your life, what you know as LemonBoy1 would be gone forever.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 11:50am On Jan 31, 2013

Free will. But its common sense to know when something is being impeded. Free will is free will and my free will has being impeded hence its not total

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 11:09am On Jan 31, 2013

LemonBoy1: Well well said my bros though u skipped sm of my question (d vital ones)

What are they again?

LemonBoy1: . At ds junture, I nw deduce frm ur above post dat :
1. Since d ego can plan nd decieve us, D ego hs a mind of it own therefore d ego is a living separate being in human.

Yes. Kind of. I expected a christian to be able to relate to this. This is what you people know as the devil. "The devil tempted me and made me do this" The ego is a tool of the body. Or I could even argue that the snake that was telling Eve to eat the fruit was a figurative expression to represent something in her [That's irrelevant though and I'm not saying that's what happened]. But someone like Paul would say things like What He wants to do so He doesn't do them and what He doesn't want to do is what He finds himself doing He later made a clear distinction between 2 personalities in him. What he called the body and what He called the spirit. That's what I'll call ego and man

LemonBoy1: 2. D childhood hapines is perfect cos a child lacks ego for planning and aspireing (evn though a baby, the hungry ones esp always aspires to b wit his mum nd plans to eat afterwards he sees her)

First of all there is discomfort which can be cause by other people's ego and that pain has nothing to do with your state of mind but your physical body. For example if someone wants to steal my car and the person shoots my leg. I'll feel the pain whether I want to or not or whether I plan for it. its just the body we occupy.
The babies are feeling the pain but I sincerely doubt that what babies spend their time doing is planning and aspiring on how to suck breast.

LemonBoy1: 3. D perfect man does'nt fear naturaly, it is d powerful ego dat mks him do ( evn as d child/baby again, crys cos of an uncomfortable/incomprehensive feeling which sets fear/panick in him nd mks him screem 4 survival)

Once again I'm talking about states of mind. As I've mentioned above other people's ego can and would cause me discomfort. Also reflex would make me take actions to avoid such discomfort instinctively. But man's state of mind shouldn't be on fear. When the ego enters is when man now starts to fear things like failure or not being successful and the list goes on

LemonBoy1: u personaly dnt plan at all at all (i assume) bt in d first plc, U hav actually planned nt to plan at all so u could knw wen u suddely begin to plan nd hw to stop it. As i said earlier own, man is neva sure/ confident of his future because he is'nt perfect (js as u were neva sure of witnessing ds 2013).

Planning for the future and planning at all are subtly different. I mean I don't plan how my future should turn out and worry over it and so on. Of course man makes plans but planning for the future where you are better than before or better than everyone else is the ego working and that's just futile.
About my plan not to plan. That's not a plan at all. That's just a decision
When you say man is not sure or confident of his future because He is not perfect. I'll rephrase that for you. Man's ego is never sure or confident of its future because it is not perfect.

If you believe you are eternal then what future are you not confident of?

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 11:36pm On Jan 30, 2013

LemonBoy1: Hahahaha, my bro u r so funi. So d real man (nt perfect ds time) dnt plan, he js watch things unfold nd lives wit it, its ego dat does d planning nt him.

Did I say the real man isn't perfect? I said everything is perfect but the ego paints imperfections. Try and think back to when you were a little child. That's when your ego just started forming with the help of external influences. I'm sure you were truly happy in that state. Happy with the world and happy with everything around you. you had no fears and no plans for the future and no disappointments and so on. But when you learn language and people start telling you things and expectations start arising, that's the ego beginning to form. By around the age of 4 or 5 it should be fully formed

LemonBoy1: Yet u say u r a pefect man nd sure/confident of ur future. What is ur future (dnt tel me its ego dat tell u ur future) ?, after identifying ur future, won't u kari out activities (planning) dat'l enable u achieve it (e.g ur survival, relocation if necessary, evn hardwork too)?

At the end of the day all everyone is pursuing is happiness. I know I can't rely on my ego to give me that happiness because once I start relying on its version of happiness then I have fallen into its con.

For example that childhood state of initial happiness is what people should be in, but other people's ego soon wipes that state from existence. And then the a new ego is formed to make sure that state shouldn't be achieved again. in order to do this, it grants us small victories of false happiness once in a while but that happiness isn't real. For example I want a Camry now and after planning for the future and working hard, my ego gives it to me. [The ego gets stronger] Then the happiness the Camry gives me fades and I want a Mercedes. it follows the same cycle till I want a Rolls Royce. the ego is never satisfied but all the happiness such things would give me aren't real.

So as relates to me I try to be in that initial childhood state as much as possible. Not planning for the future or worrying but just enjoying the outcomes. its surprising that the original state of happiness would then cause similar "happy" things to happen to you. Fear and worry achieves the same in that it can cause the outcome you concentrate your mind on

LemonBoy1: If a real man only needs to live nd watch accept d way tins unfold, i tel u, he stil nids to plan it so to ensure dat he realy leaves things to hapn hw ever it chooses.

The way you use the term "real man" Which kind of man isn't a real man?

The things I'm trying to tell you is what some religions have tried to explain E.g Buddhism. Even when i read some things that Jesus said, it seemed like He was hinting at this.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 9:25pm On Jan 30, 2013

^Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate dictionary

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 9:18pm On Jan 30, 2013

greatgenius your words always resonate within my spirit. I'm really enjoying your argument/case

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 9:16pm On Jan 30, 2013

OK. to make it simpler just call your current thoughts the ego [The voice in your head]

LemonBoy1: am talking about d perfection of human being as a living being achieving his goals exactly d way he plans it, u r talking about perfection of an unforseen incident dt hinders him.

Exactly the way HE plans it. What I'm saying is that it is the ego that planned it. The ego can never attain perfection in life as life cannot go according to the what the ego wants. However the ego gives us our small victories. If you play chess you'll know about sacrificing pawns to get bigger pieces.
What that voice in your head takes from you at the end after giving you your degree, job, house or whatever it paints as a victory to you cannot be compared.

The real self would not plan but would just go along with events never being worried or afraid *State of nothingness. begin to lose your identity*

If you can lay your hands on the Jason Statham film called Revolver made in 2005 I would recommend that you watch it over and over again till you understand it.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 9:07pm On Jan 30, 2013*

Image123: the basis for punishment is sin, not freewill as you stated.

It would seem you enjoy back and forth. Isn't sin supposed to be disobeying God's laws thereby choosing some other God or outright refusal to choose God and his laws. Isn't the keyword here choice as is stated severally in the bible "Choose life" and so on? If not then briefly describe or define sin

Image123: It is a bias, considering that your perspective is based on an irreligious and godless worldview.

OK. Then yours is a bias considering that your perspective is based on a religious and godful view. I maintain that mine isn't a bias. I'm just analyzing the doctrines of the bible and its followers. My personal beliefs have nothing to do with it and I am not even arguing from the point of view of my personal beliefs so how can an objective analysis be biased?

Image123: And were you at anytime or place promised freewill before existence? Does the Bible define freewill or state freewill to include pre-existence?

Thats the whole point I'm making. It is a paradox to claim i have total and complete free will when I didn't have free will from the beginning. [Freedom to exist or not]

Image123: The dictionary agrees with my opinion. Humans are free to make choices. But freedom is not limitless. you are a free man, but not free to slap a army man or the governor. you are free to walk around Lagos, but not free to tresspass on private property. that's freedom for you. You are free to vote and be voted for, except that there are other terms attached like not contesting above 80years or below 18years etc. There is no limitless freedom anywhere, but there is freedom nonetheless. freewill is freedom, and freedom comes with a price. Like they say, great power comes with great responsiblity.

1. According to the dictionary free will and freedom are not entirely the same thing

Free will 1 : voluntary choice or decision *I do this of my own free will*
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Freedom 1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous.

Coercion: 3 : to achieve by force or threat *coerce compliance*

So from my interpretation, free will has to do with choices strictly why freedom is absence of coercion in choice or action. I can further state that freedom is the absence of coercion to people's freewill

From a biblical point of view I have neither total and complete free will nor freedom. [READ DEUTERONOMY 28]

About the human laws, you are not talking about free will at all which man cannot give other men. you are talking about freedom. They are not the same thing. Only God can give freewill [supposedly]

Image123: please state every instance you know of, i would like to look into it.

its not necessary to the argument and I don't have the time to do that. Deuteronomy 28 would suffice

Image123: you should be willing to give the Bible definition so that we can prove if there is any fault on God keeping up with His definition. from what you have posted about Biblical freewill, it is evident that freewill has conditions. Freewill has context. Like i said earlier, a freewill offering doesn't mean you would offer your dustbin to God. It still has to be in line with what God approves, but you offer it at your own decision. freewill is a major component of every human soul. it is decision. we have the freedom to decide. You can decide to eat now or later, sleep now or later, study or not study, eat or not eat, go to church or not go, love or hate, serve God or not serve Him, give your life to Christ or not give it to Christ. that is freewill. We are not limited to instincts like animals. We can MORE EASILY and frequently make intelligent or unintelligent decisions.

There is no bible definition but let me tell you how the argument goes
[Question: Why would God create me just to end up punishing me so severely [Deuteronomy 28] Answer: He gave you a choice and you chose destruction and curses. You had free will. For example after God's long cursing spree, he ended with this: Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live]

So I argue that God didn't give me a choice as to whether I should be put into that situation in the first place and therefore my choices were not complete So my free will isn't total and complete.
That's why i said its a paradox because God would have to make me exist in the first place before presenting me with the first choice to exist or not which then creates the problem again because I am already existing.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 6:12pm On Jan 30, 2013

I don't know how to reply to your post. I think you understand the point but you are just trying to get lost in unnecessary details.

I don't think the bible explicitly gave a definition of free will as a bible is not a dictionary but the doctrine of free will is evident throughout the bible.
For an example and as regards the passages, I could pick anywhere from the bible but let's stick with Deuteronomy 28

God says there are two choices. Choose me and be blessed e.t.c Don't choose me and be cursed e.t.c You are free to choose [Free will] and the curses are then justified because you were free to choose
But I'm saying that the free will isn't complete because I didn't ask for all this in the first place. i wasn't free to make a choice as to whether I want to exist or not and then be given the God or no God choice. understand?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+28&version=NKJV

The link to the chapter for anyone who wants to read it. Some very terrible curses if I might add.
For example

28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.

30 “You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 5:03pm On Jan 30, 2013

Image123: i only partially agree with this viewpoint. The basis for punishment is not freewill, i wonder what religion you got that.

Image123: You have the freedom to choose life or death i.e choose God or no. You can make a decision without existing. Coming into existence is not by personal choice. God and your parents decided that one

So tell me what the basis for punishment is. If I understood you clearly before, it is because we do not choose God.

Image123: you're looking at it with the bias of what you have read and heard.

No bias at all

Image123: Read this your statement again until you see how senseless it is please. How can one choose if he/she wants to exist before existing?

Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to make. I wasn't free to choose if I wanted to exist and be given the choice of God or no God in the first place. You say God and my parents decided that for me which means I wasn't free in that aspect.
Now that existence has been forced on me. The conditions are so onerous to not choose God that my free will is further drastically diminished

Image123: What is the Bible's definition of free will for instance? Are you speaking out of ignorance? If yes, please say so. If no, give Bible passages that define and shows that man has freewill. thanks.

In line with my explanations above, I insist that I do not have total and complete free will. And to further support this claim, free will according to Merriam-Webster dictionary is : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

And yet the bible shows several instances of God wildly interfering in the freedom of humans to make choices so as to cause them to make a particular choice or prevent them from making a particular choice

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 4:40pm On Jan 30, 2013

^I said that there can only be different outcomes. Whatever outcome that occurs is perfect.

If the initial plan was to end up in Spain and the person ends up in the hospital, it is the ego that would say that the outcome isn't perfect because its relating it to other outcomes. Once again the ego is a survival mechanism and it has its purposes but if all humans were supposed to end up in the hospital like the man did, wouldn't ending up in the hospital be the perfect outcome and those that end up in Spain the imperfect ones to the ego?

The outcome however it occurs is perfect but in your understanding it is the ego that defines perfection. Everything that relates to the ego and comes out of it is a lie. The egos definition of perfection is false. Everything is perfection. its then our egos that creates imperfection based on relativity to its created perfection idea

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 3:33pm On Jan 30, 2013

^There are only different outcomes. Whatever outcome occurs is perfect. Even mistakes, death and wars and so on

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 3:32pm On Jan 30, 2013

^Read my initial post again

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 1:54pm On Jan 30, 2013

^So you agree with me that free will isn't total and complete?

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 1:48pm On Jan 30, 2013

LemonBoy1: Hussle 4 survival no mata hw little it is does'nt mean a restful heart. A perfect existence does. I think a restful heart has entirely nting 2 worry about, everytin cms ur own way without side effects (dats wat we humans lvs, nbdy lvs 2 lose), a pesn wit a restful heart is perfect, confident of d future (humans r nt sure of d future) nd u nd i knw dat humans r imperfect either.

This is why I tried to take time to explain the ego.

Let me talk from my own point of view. I have nothing to worry about [My ego has things to worry about. i don't allow it though]. Everything I need comes my way without side effects [Everything my ego needs doesn't come its way without side effects] No human can lose [The ego can and will definitely lose] Everything is perfect [It is the ego that would tell you it isn't perfect] I am confident of the future [My ego isn't] humans are perfect [Even the ego is perfect in that it serves its purpose perfectly during the period its required]

On an unrelated note I do not even fear death [My ego fears death]

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 11:55am On Jan 30, 2013

LemonBoy1: Al aiyt bro. Bt i think a persn wit weakness, diffulties nd prone to or wit sickness is neva a restful heart. A pesn wit weakness has no restful heart for "fear" of falling into danger,

There's always danger even for the strong. According to the bible, even God supposedly is in danger at times

LemonBoy1: loosing a battle/race/game etc until he identifys ds weakness nd successfuly curtail it.

Once again there's always weakness. [Once there's strength, there's weakness. Its implied. As a matter of fact everything is implied. Nothing implied something and everything]

LemonBoy1: A persn whos sick neva hs a restful heart because he continues to worry about he's health, 4 it may lead to d end of his life.

Even healthy people can worry about their health if they want to

LemonBoy1: A pesn wit diffulties neva has a restful heart, d memories alone mk d heart skip, dt is nt a restful heart oh, infact wit al d above conditions a pesn cn die of hrt attack oh, bros hw u c am nah

Same thing with sickness.

The voices in our head that make us worry and strive and so on has been with us all our life. It's a survival mechanism and it has its purpose but that voice which I'll call the ego has been with us so long that we now think the voice is Us. The real Us isn't that voice in our head and this is life's ultimate con.
Once you can separate the ego from your real self you'll see that there's nothing to fear because the real you is one with everything in existence. the ultimate con is the illusion that we are separate from everything else. Once you break out of this illusion you'll realize that you are for all intents and purposes part of God [I don't mean the ego is God. the ego can be called the devil as it is the cause of all evil] and you'll see that all external enemies and perceived negative circumstances are a projection of the ego and what then is left to fear?

You are a dreamer within your dream and you are something in your dream but yet you are paradoxically all of it.

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 9:54am On Jan 30, 2013

LemonBoy1: then it means u r nw living a perfect life. No fear of any danger, no sickness of any sort, no weakness in any way, no nid of being careful of what u eat, drink, where u live, go, etc, no difficulty at al at al in ur life, etc. Congrats my bro, am hapi 4 U

Its all a matter of perspective because one can have all these things and still not be restful.
And even in the midst of what seems like hardship to other people, one can be restful.

About the fears, I don't have them. About sickness or weaknesses or difficulties, I do have them. Doesn't affect my state of mind.
About the need to be careful, of course i exercise it. Not out of fear though. Its just the right thing to do

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 8:43am On Jan 30, 2013

LemonBoy1: YOU hv made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you : SAINT AUGUSTINE, CONFESSIONS (SEE parag. 30)... Am a catholic 4 life

My heart is pretty restful though

Christianity Etc › Re: Incredible Testimony At Winners Chapel by Affiliated(m): 8:38am On Jan 30, 2013

Omerian Consult: Now stop avoiding my question on ur view on satan.

Affiliated: Finally I'm not trying to dodge the question but tell me what [a] Satan is and its characteristics and I'll tell you if such a thing exists to be best of my knowledge

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 9:12pm On Jan 29, 2013

okeyxyz: Yes it's subjective, but it is evidence based speculation.

Is there such a thing? Lol Once you have all the evidence you need, is it still speculation?

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 9:08pm On Jan 29, 2013

okeyxyz: I owe all my existence and "every" pleasure of life to the sun. Fusion is just a process that sustains the sun for my own use. Whatever other purpose you can come up with to argue that is a purpose for the sun will only be theoretical. At least life is very obvious and evident.

okeyxyz: Purpose is more than simply subjective, It must be testable or useful too. Testable does not mean objective, only there are objective tests and there are subjective tests. Just like beauty and emotion is testable but subjective. So if you cannot demonstrate that a smile means that someone fancies you, then your interpretation of that purpose is only imaginary.

So how does one objectively test that the purpose of fusion [The "supposed personality" that is the creator/cause of the sun] is to give you existence and every pleasure of life? From what you have said, how can any purpose be objectively tested at all?

About your claim on God and the bible, if God is beyond the comprehension of Humans, the why need us to follow and believe in Him at all? When he created us in a way that we would be unable to understand him? Sounds like a set up to me

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 8:56pm On Jan 29, 2013

I think the point is that there are things souls have to learn and the more difficult the challenge is, the better

Benodic: that is exactly the point. the harder earth becomes the more the souls here will remember that this place is not their home and will start looking for a way out of here.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 8:30pm On Jan 29, 2013

okeyxyz: The only things that "seem" to happen without purpose are chaos. Even at that, we can reasonably conclude that the purpose of chaos is destruction. Even christian doctrine teaches that both good and evil are intended for their respective purposes.

1. This purpose you claim must exist seems subjective to me. Purpose seems like something man creates to suit our understanding

2. Are you saying the only purpose of the sun is to support life on earth? Or life on earth is just a by product of the fusion that brought about the sun?

3. In line with the subjectiveness of purpose I can find purpose in anything just the same way someone can find purposelessness in anything. Is purpose then a real thing or just a mental state?
E.g From my point of view, the purpose of a person's smile to me was because the person is attracted to me
While from the point of view of the person, the smile was for no purpose at all. Just a random act

On another note, your claim that God created man because He wants to be man is quite interesting. And ever since I've been arguing from other people's point of view but now I'll put mine. Man is part of God. God is man and other things

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 4:39pm On Jan 29, 2013

okeyxyz: Bros.., You shouldn't throw logic out of the window just because you wanna score points against a "religious" person. But this!! religious person is one badazz!! mofo!! and you are gonna need loads and loads of logic-gymming to match-up to him

OK. good to know

okeyxyz: But to set you off, answer me this: Is any purpose without value-systems? The fact there is a purpose already forms a value-system on it's own, as both words derive from eachother. I'm baffled that you are unable to grasp this fundamental "given". The word: Creator already is a purpose on its own, therefore it has processes for creating or a "system\value-system" for creating.

You have introduced something new which is "purpose" I never talked about purpose. You purport that the creator is a purpose and all purposes must have value systems. But you are fundamentally wrong. The creator or cause of the universe must not necessarily be or have a purpose. Some things can happen without a purpose at all

okeyxyz: As to why a creator must have a will and personality, By calling him creator, have you not just personified him? Now does it still make sense to ask: "why must the creator have a will and a personality?"

Creator is just a name. When I say universe, have I personified it? When I say fusion have I personified it? Yet we all know fusion created the sun [For what purposes? I don't know because fusion isn't a conscious thing that can have a purpose *To the best of my knowledge]
So is it OK for me to ask "must fusion have a will and a personality?"

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 4:25pm On Jan 29, 2013

LemonBoy1: Ok well said as a xtain. Does it mean muslims, buddhist etc wil go to hell? No mata hw much they strive to b moral nd good to their fellow humans (luv my neighbour as u luv thy self)? Those dat r even prosecuted for upholding d truth for the betterness of human beings? Bt nt xtains, so u decree/conclude hell?

I'm just quoting the bible. I'm not a Christian but I'm following Christian doctrines here. According to the bible they are all going to hell

Christianity Etc › Re: The Religion-freewill Paradox by Affiliated(op): 3:33pm On Jan 29, 2013

plaetton: And from where do we get to know the creators value system?

Pls pls, dont tell us that it is in the bible.

The first question should even be why must the creator have a value system? The fact that something exists does not mean it must have a value system.

Second question is why must the creator have a will and a personality? [I'm not saying the creator/cause of the universe doesn't have one] But can't something exist or happen without a will or a personality attached to it?

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 1:22pm On Jan 29, 2013

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:16) *NIV

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9) *NIV

About being saved by good behaviors.

...How then can we be saved? 6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. (Isaiah 64:5-6) *King James

From what i understand here one must Believe Jesus is the son of God, declare it with one's mouth and believe it in one's heart. It has nothing to do with being good.

The bible says that all our righteous acts are like filthy rags to God. It cannot save a person.
After believing in Jesus then one can be moral and so on

Christianity Etc › Re: Incredible Testimony At Winners Chapel by Affiliated(m): 1:12pm On Jan 29, 2013

About your false Einstein claim that He was the greatest scientist of all time.

List Verse however named him the second most influential scientist of all time after Isaac Newton

http://listverse.com/2009/02/24/top-10-most-influential-scientists/

Christianity Etc › Re: Incredible Testimony At Winners Chapel by Affiliated(m): 12:59pm On Jan 29, 2013*

Omerian Consult: Even Albert Einstein, the greatest scientist of all time believed in God!

Affiliated: Who gave Mr. Einstein the title of the greatest scientist of all time?

Omerian Consult: Time magazine named Einstein not just d greatest scientist but the greatest personality of d last millennium . Google that! Ur shallow knowledge of him is just sufficient to make u anti-God! Don't dodge my question: does satan exist?

1. If you are going to base your claim that Einstein is the greatest scientist of all time on Time Magazine, I am aware of the honor Time magazine bestowed on Einstein as the person of the century [not millennium]. Emphasis on 20th century. When did 20th century become all time?

2. I was wondering if I should take my time to answer your shot claiming I had a shallow knowledge on Einstein when its the other way round. But for the sake of knowledge I would

Let me break everything down to its simplest. [Dictionary definitions]

Atheism: a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

Deity: a : the rank or essential nature of a god :
3 : one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful

So I can conclude that an atheist is one who disbelieves in a supremely good or powerful personality called God.

I maintain that Einstein was an *atheist just the way I am an *atheist. I however have an idea of something supreme which I would term as God just the way Einstein did [not a personal god or gods]. I also said He was a skeptic so whenever He talks about a personality of God or a personal God, He did so to state reasons why such a thing could not exist. But most of all Einstein was agnostic

Agnostic :1 : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

In my opinion, If I am going to classify Einstein as anything, it would be more of a pantheist which means that the universe (or nature) is identical with divinity.[2] Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal or anthropomorphic god, but believe that interpretations of the term differ.] *wikipedia

So when Einstein refers to God, He could mean the Universe or a personal God [for skeptic reasons]

Here are some of the relevant Einstein quotes

*It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve.

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls.

Your question [about God] is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds.

. . . I came—though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents—to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true.* Wikipedia

When I say atheist I mean it in the broad terms of all who don't believe in a personality called God the way mainstream religions define it and Einstein falls into that category. He however claimed to have a cosmic religion in line with panatheism

3. Finally I'm not trying to dodge the question but tell me what [a] Satan is and its characteristics and I'll tell you if such a thing exists to be best of my knowledge

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 12:32pm On Jan 29, 2013

toba: the message of christ is not contradictory all. conditions for making heaven is clear be you a christian or muslim. I dont know about atheist cos they have said there's no God. Though God loves them.

LemonBoy1: hahahahaha, nice one bro, bt i think al religion teaches nd encourages morals nd unconditional love as a guide to attaining heaven/paradise/eternal peace etc. So a weather a good muslim o, xtain o, pegan o, buddhist o, etc me i think dey wil al inherit heaven.

I'll put the bible's conditions of salvation soon enough. Please allow me time to do some research. in the main time, if you have any scriptures to back up this claim, I'll be glad to see them

Christianity Etc › Re: How Do People Become Atheists by Affiliated(m): 9:31am On Jan 29, 2013

toba: Dont get it wrong. U are not on ur way to hell for failing to be a christian. What about those that died as good Muslims? You need to fully understand what Christianity is all about. It simply means Christ-like. You admitted that Jesus has good characters. what Christians does is to follow this character and make heaven. Jesus said we shouldnt kill or do evil. If u obey him, then you have no issues. You're here on NL posting and no moderator can ban you for posting. You'll only be banned for breaking the rules and if you failed to accede to corrects, Seun reserves the right to ban u 'eternally'

I'll leave this post for other Christians to handle. Christians in the house should please tell me if good muslims are going to heaven [I know the bible didn't say such a thing]

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