MEILYN: oh oh. Bros, stick to the topic okay? I dont wanna get in an argument or whatsoever. If you have any problem with what is written up there, just bring out a scripture to disapprove it okay? Cut the long story short.

I cant argue wit u, i m advising u and correcting u and it pays if u take to such rather than call it long story.

I prefer to discuss wit u whn u bcome d "student of d Word" who has done thorough study, prayerfully and wit adequate meditation, and has come to maturity thru patience and discipline in d place of prayer and bible study so dt i can also b edified whether we agree or not.

Your attitude to d Word doesnt show dt and its preventing me from such discussions wit u. I will rather advice u and pray u yield to such so dt u can b a better and patient "student of d Holy ghost". One dt knows d place of prayers, meditations and patience in diligent bible study.

Lik u said, i will lik to cut it short here too.

Stay Blessed.

MEILYN: Your question is irrelevant, did i pray about my study? Should i answer that?. I always let the bible speak for itself. Christ is Melchizdec. Do you have any proof he is not? If you do, bring the verse down here. What do you mean by student? I read the bible like they do in school? Am no student, ok i get your point, student of the holy ghost. Yes i am.

U mean askin u if u pray about ur study is irrelevant? Oo boy. I m amazed!!!
I am not here to tell u whether u ar right or wrong on wat u claim/study. I hav serious issues wit u whn u dont even know wat u ar talkin about more than a day. Is dt how u learn? U r tot now, d next minute u go out to tell d world about it? U never heard about Melchisedek in NT till now and u ar evn bragging dt u read d bible alot. Dt is extremely dangerous and ppl lookin up to u on doctrinal and christian issues can b in serious wahala.

Ur comment showed dt thr ar many of d books of d bible u never opened b4 (including Book of Hebrews, till today). U need to start studying and allow d Spirit u claim also to teach u about "patience"

I also mentioned "student of d Word" u said u r not but "student of d Holyghost". Try stop creating confusions for urself, it will help u a lot.
Thanks

doubleDx:

I find it very difficult to agree with the emboldened part. Okay, let's look at Paul's case when he was called =>

Galatians 1:15-18 (KJV)

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Nice!

Bro, is MEILYN, Paul? Or is he receiving another gospel or revelation for us? Thr is nothing new in wat he has written, absolutely old issues. My concern is d attitude he, MEILYN has been showing to d word. It shows clearly dt he is looking for "special revelation" to give. If not how will a man come up and say "i hav never seen Melchisedek in NT b4 but after been led by a someone 2kno he claimed to hav then study such in a day to conclude who Melchisedek is. He must hav missed so much of Christians' bible classes/fellowships.

He made it clear to us dt he has not been studying his bible and has never even read/study d d whole bible at least a single time. Even an unserious christian who regularly attends a church would hav heard dt b4.

It amazed me beyond comprehension how MEILYN could claim to hav known dt in a day.

I m not emphasizing on d time limit to comprehension/understandin d scriptures (d Spirit gives dt) but u coming out after a day study to teach ur members/friends on same topic is disastrous and show how desperate he is to say " Spirit tot me".

We make bad christians whn we walk such path.

If Paul talked about "another (heteros) gospel", i boldly believ dt thr is also another (heteros) spirit. I dont hav anytin against MEILYN but i hav against his quick claim dt "d spirit revealed to him".

With just one day understanding he carries on ds issue, he is just lik d 2nd receiver of d word described in Matt 13:20-21 (parable of s sower). Rejoicing in new revelation (Word) but doesnt allow root penetration.

doubleDx:

I find it very difficult to agree with the emboldened part. Okay, let's look at Paul's case when he was called =>

Galatians 1:15-18 (KJV)

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Nice!

Bro, is MEILYN, Paul? Or is he receiving another gospel or revelation for us? Thr is nothing new in wat he has written, absolutely old issues. My concern is d attitude he, MEILYN has been showing to d word. It shows clearly dt he is looking for "special revelation" to give. If not how will a man come up and say "i hav never seen Melchisedek in NT b4 but after been led by a someone 2kno he claimed to hav then study such in a day to conclude who Melchisedek is. He must hav missed so much of Christians' bible classes/fellowships.

He made it clear to us dt he has not been studying his bible and has never even read/study d d whole bible at least a single time. Even an unserious christian who regularly attends a church would hav heard dt b4.

It amazed me beyond comprehension how MEILYN could claim to hav known dt in a day.

I m not emphasizing on d time limit to comprehension/understandin d scriptures (d Spirit gives dt) but u coming out after a day study to teach ur members/friends on same topic is disastrous and show how desperate he is to say " Spirit tot me".

We make bad christians whn we walk such path.

If Paul talked about "another (heteros) gospel", i boldly believ dt thr is also another (heteros) spirit. I dont hav anytin against MEILYN but i hav against his quick claim dt "d spirit revealed to him".

With just one day understanding he carries on ds issue, he is just lik d 2nd receiver of d word described in Matt 13:20-21 (parable of s sower). Rejoicing in new revelation (Word) but doesnt allow root penetration.

MEILYN: You are very wrong. Very wrong. Am not a student of the word. It didnt take Prophets of old, Paul e.t.c 5years to study and understand scriptures.

U ve not answer d most important questn i asked. Did u pray at all in ur study? Dts key for me to enter into a discussion wit u.
Also i wonder u sayin u ar not a student of d word, so pls wat ar u? Rabbi?

MEILYN: yes you are correct, you are very correct. But bro, i have been studying this all day. You know am already familiar with the bible, so anything i read in the new testament, if i dont understand, i goto the old testament. Why did Melchidezec visit Abraham, Where did he visit Abraham, How was he the king of righteousness. These were the things i studied bro. I linked them up to get this info. Including the Mathew account between Christ and Abraham.

A day study can never be enough for u to reach a conclusion on doctrinal issues like ds. Whether right or wrong, a very diligent study is wat it takes for u to b established on such issues. Ds same issues in discussion can take a well discipline, spirit filled student of d word a range of 1-5years of study, searching, learning, praying and robbing minds wit fellow believers in other to hav a thorough insight to such discussion.

Bro, can i ask u, hav u prayed also b4 affirming ds conclusion or u just received ds as u pointed out?

MEILYN: majority of Christians dont have the holy spirit mam. Because they dont keep the laws, scripture says keep my commandments and you will get understanding, so this is bigger than their understanding. Yes this was from the holy spirit. We were discussing on another thread about laws and grace and someone brought a verse concerning high priest, Jesus an high priest. [b]I have read about Melchizedec in Genesis but i was seeing it in Hebrews for the first time, so i followed the path the holy spirit led me to, precept upon precept miss.[/b]

Bro, on d bolded. Dont u think u r too forward on ds. If u see/learn things a new, its important to be patient and study thoroughly (rightly dividing) as a good bible student b4 u come to conclusion and also form a doctrine.
I admonish dt u b careful on bein wanting to share d word or say u r led to a meaning without adequate study.
Thanks.

Pastor Olu T:

Dont u see u err bro, I must say u need more study even in English language (No offence pls, I said this as a bro n love u so). The reason I am saying this is 'cos u kept misquoting me, when I said "thinking beyond the box" it simply means thinking beyond the contemporary believe system n not thinking beyond the scriptures for that will disastrous.

True I might drew inference from the scripture, bt its never a deviation 'cos just as DoubleDx has said n the bible confirms, they were created by God n his children till they fell. I dont believe that's deviation or misinterpretation 'cos they were all sons of God (both the good n the bad) till some fell, what in the world is difficult to understand in that?

Firstly bro, u dont think out of d box in scriptural interpretation, u rely on d Spirit of truth as recorded in d scriptures. Its not about believ systems but wat d scriptures says about issues. Ur thinking out of d box made u allowed d interpretatn of BoE unknowingly.

I want us to approach ds intelligently within d confide of wat is written in d Word of God.

I m not here to tell u who d "sons of God" in Gen 6 were, but definitely want us to analyse ur interpretatn to see how far they were from wat was written.

1st, can u clear ds? According to ur meaning, were they servants of God as at Gen 6 or enemy of God?

2nd, of wat race will we classify such offspring since they can never b of Adam (man) origin? Do we conclude dt at a point in time we hav had offsprings of more than one race on earth? Those who were condemned under Adam sin (Adam geneology) and those who were not condemned under Adam sins but Angels sins (Fallen angels geneology)?

3rd, How does Christ redemptive work handle dt (d offsprings of such) since He came to die for man (Adam), Sin of man (Adam), those born of Adam (Adam race). Or Christ also died for such fallen angel race? Or d offsprings will b 4ever condemned without will to choose?

Pls i need ur answers within d confide of d scriptures. Thanks.

doubleDx:

They were faithful servants/messengers of the MOST HIGH until evil was found in them....That was when they became fallen Angels! Why is this so difficult to understand? Were they not all created by the MOST HIGH? These were certainly not the same set of Angels that rebelled against God alongside Satan; they were a group of watchers that later became fallen Angels/Demons after sinning against the MOST HIGH....

I'm tired of arguing over this topic! Let the Holy spirit lead & show us the truth....

**Unfollowing**

U cant be tired because u were d one who introduced extra biblical interpretatn and then point to d Spirit to show d truth. All dt d Spirit truth will reveal wont includes dt which is external to d scriptures. U mentioned watchers, rebel angels after satan etc... Was all ds revealed by d Spirit to u or u ar "thinking out of d box (bible)"? Ds i need to kno from u. Were they God's servants during Gen 6 acts or enemy of God? We can get better insight whn u answer ds.

Its best for d Christian faith whic we uphold to stay within d interpretatn of d scriptures, within internal scriptural evidences and scriptural references. Whn our sight deviated to external sources, we take d Word of God as inadequate to provide answers to life questions.

doubleDx:


Where in any of my posts on this thread did I refer to Satan or any of his agent as the Son of God? I said the Sons of God as written in Genesis 6 were the "later" fallen angels ( After sinning against God as clearly written in the Book of Jude). They were all created by God and were faithful messengers until evil was found in them (when the chose to do the will of Satan). I don't know why you are misquoting & misinterpreting my message! Smdh....

Pls can u clarify ds for me. If u say Gen 6 refer to falling angels, Was Gen 6 referring to after or b4 thr fall? Mayb if u answer ds i can know whr u stand. I defer on ur claim dt Jude clearly write about dt.

Divepen: Many times,churches have ask their church members to speak in tongues as if everyone is baptised
*They have forgotten that there witches and wizards who understand many languages
*There are new christains among them
*There are christains that have not receive the baptism of The Holyspirit.

Paul,in 1corinthians 14 expanciated the topic and said what use will it be if we all speak in tongues but there is no interpreter...
New members will think, we are going 'Mad'

if there is no interpreter ,he said we should 'Shut up' amidst the congregation.
Infact,how will everybody be speaking in tongues at the same time...

Bro, proper study of d chapter and a little honesty will move u beyond ur conclusion and understand d purpose od discussion in d chapter.

1 Corinth 14:4 He that speaketh in tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1 Corinth 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1 Corinth 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Pastor Olu T:

It is very convenient to say the sons of God here refers to the children of Seth if we dont want to provoke contemporary belief system. But bro looking at it From the context of the OT scriptures, whenever the bible refers to the sons of God it means angels (Job1:6, Daniel3:25&28)?

I have read read different commentaries n study myself before writing this, so pls do a study urself n look beyond the box. It is nothing un usual for spirit beings to have relations with humans then, Eve never saw it weird that the serpent was talking to her, Cain was never scared when God confronted him with the killing of his bro, neither was Adam n Eve taken aback when God always visit them in the cool of the evening. Though no one can say exactly how these events took place, but one is sure that they took place, wo why should we take some literally n some otherwise (I leave u to judge)? Then man had peculiar relationship with the spirit that we cant fully comprehend now. Just look through the OT n u discovered that so many things have changed (or how do u believe the OT?), or how can u explain just one person killing hundreds of people?

Dont let us just make assumptions but look at the scripture closely n in its context, then we will see ourselves.

NB Its not like we dont both believe the scriptures n trying to validate it, so we can as well look through it together.

LET ONLY GOD BE TRUE AND ALL MEN A LIAR

Bro, beyond d box? Haaaaaaaa. No look beyond o. Scriptures Only. Ur tots, study, discussions etc on d scriptures must b answered by d same. Lets b silent whn d scripture is and b loud whn it is loud.

U made assumptions bro, by ur conclusions below
Job 1:6 sons of God === Angels of God
Dan 3:25 son of God === Angel of God
but
Gen 6:1 sons of God === fallen angels/demons (enemy of God)

Dts pure deviation of meaning read-in by assumptions of there acts. Gen 6:1 interpretation as sons of God was extracted from BoE by ppl who used extra biblical materials.

Pastor Olu T:

Reading commentaries doesn't mean I took cue from it, i only read what others think about it and my summation was strictly based on personal study.

It is a well known fact that sons of God in the new testament means believers n sons of the devil means unbelievers, so I dont get the point u are trying to make. True this is only revealed by the coming of Jesus which validate the point that its foreign to man to be called sons of God. This was the issue with pharisee, Jesus calling Himself the son of God for it was only understood as supernatural being. So they fault Him for Him being human making Himself supernatural.

We being sons of God was a mystery that was only revealed in the new testament, so referring to man as sons of God in the old testament was sacrilegious.

Bro, personal study is great but no scriptures should carry personal interpretation i.e u cant get a personal interpretation from ur study (2Pe 1:20). They must all agree wit d tot and inspiration as given by d Holyghost to d writers. Can d HolyGhost inspire d writers of d scriptures to call satan/demons "sons of God"? Why did d writer of Job made a distinctn btw sons of God and Satan? Are d sons of God thr combinations of angels/demons? Just study dt well.

doubleDx:

Who were they? What about the sons of God in the Book of Job 1:6 and also the one King Nebuchadnezzar saw in the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? Sons of God as "used" all over the OT referred to Angels (Spirit beings)!!! It was after the crucifixion of Christ for the sins of the world that humans are referred to as the "Children of God" in the scriptures....


Ephesians 1:5

He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

Lik i said, allowing ur interpretatn. Ur meanin of Job 1:6 doesnt agree wit Gen 6. Job 1:6 made a clear distinction btw d good and d evil. Sons of God and Satan. If all angels (good/evil) can b refered to as "sons of God" Job wouldnt hav distinguished satan (falling angel) from d rest. Every whr in d scriptures whr open undertandin were transmitted about who sons of God were, they hav always been known to b servants/messengers of God not rebellious being. D writer of d scriptures as inspired were very apt in making clear distinctn btw d good and evil, angels and demons/devil etc. Ask ur self, can God refered to satan as His sons? or can He call demons His messengers?

Consistencies is one of d basis of scriptures interpretation. Following ur interpretation, u agreed dt sons of God in Job 1:6 were God servants except d seperated one (satan), u agreed dt d son of God in Daniel is God's servant but whn u r interpreting Gen 6, u deviated dt d sons of God thr were fallen angels evn though they all hav d same hebrew words "bene elohim". Wat communion had light wit darkness!. Is thr anyway u can find such closeness in d epistles (lik calling d unbelievin one sons of God?). Fallen (angels) means separated, rejected in authority, rights, position and location and ar now enemy of God. They were never of God again, forever and so can never b sons of d Most High God.

D interpretation of d sons of God as written in Gen 6 to be fallen angels was extracted from extra biblical materials (lik BoE). We ought not to bring such into d authority of d scriptures. Whn d scriptures is silent, lets be silent too instead of bringin in external revelations which has no place in d scriptures.

Actually, an earnest study of d scriptures showed dt d "sons of God" in Gen 6 were never supernatural being but i chose to walk from ur interpretation and show u d deviation in such meaning as compared to others.

Pastor Olu T: The sons of God

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:1-5

There are different schools of thought as to who the sons of God are in this particular verse, I will want to believe the reason is that man finds it difficult to comprehend how spiritual beings could have such relationship with man, so many when they come to this point assume the sons of God referred to are men devoted to serving the Lord. It was believed that after Cain was sent away from the presence of the Lord, he lived as a fugitive somewhere away from the remaining children of Adam and Eve, he built a city as the bible said and started a new kind of race who do not care much about God and was bad and wicked, are referred to as the sons of men. And that the remaining children of Adam and Eve which started with Enosh was also in a place of their own and lived away from Cain’ people who were bad and wicked, were referred to as the sons of God because they actually cared about God, seek to know Him better and try to rediscover what they lost in the Garden of Eden, so they started calling upon His name more and called themselves by the name of the Lord. Though to some extent this is right except in the case of the sons of God are the sons of Enosh, and the sons of men are the sons of Cain which does not correlate with the scripture and does not fully fit in the context of the times and dispensation they were in. Going through the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, whenever the bible made mention of the sons of God, the bible meant supernatural beings (angels Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Daniel 3:25 before the coming of Christ though) and not just men that are devoted to God. This we look at more closely as we allow the scripture to explain itself and consider in context the times and seasons the event took place.

We will look closely at the context of the scripture and what prevails in that dispensation; during the early times when man was created it was a normal thing for the supernatural beings to have relations with man. It was not thought abnormal when the serpent talked to the woman and convinced her to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the identity of the serpent was fully known as that of a supernatural being, being the devil himself; though the serpent was just an animal, the devil possessed its body in order to be able to carry out his schemes. It is also a known fact from the scriptures that it was not just the devil that rebelled; there were other angels that joined in the rebellion, so if the devil could have had relations with humans as at the time, the other angels too can. Also during the time of Cain and Abel, the Lord spoke personally to Cain and warned him when he abhorred evil thoughts in his heart; the bible never portrayed Cain or Eve as being scared or seeing it as something weird. The truth was that even after the fall man still has spiritual abilities unlike today, man was still spiritual irrespective of the fall and could do supernatural things himself and relate with supernatural beings.

The sons of God that was mentioned in this scripture are actually the fallen angels (demons), who already have rebelled but still have some spiritual abilities to accomplish some things, and besides there was nothing for them to do any more because they had forsaken authority and their duties, so they were just perambulating the earth as their master the devil was and is still doing Job 1:7; 2:2.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Bros, though d sons of God as written in Gen 6 never referred to fallen angels, yet allowin ur interpretation those personalty "d sons of God" as written in dt chapter doesnt agree wit d personalty described in other scriptures u quoted. We must adhere to consistencies in interpreting d scriptures b4 we make conclusions. " sons of God" in Gen 6 were never fallen angels.

shdemidemi:

Study to understand what Paul was saying to this church in Corinth.

I urge you to go read about this church, it was the worse church at time of the Apostle. He spoke to these ones like they were babies in the faith, he was teaching about love in this church and not tongues. These church saw talking gibberish as an epitome of spirituality.

Paul told them to speak in clear languages that will benefit all instead of speaking in a 'tongue' that is for self. You will not find Paul talk about tongues to any other church he started.

Please speak in clear, audible language in public. If you like go in your room and speak that which only God probably understand, the same way only God understand what a toddler says.

Bro, Let me start by asking. Pls did Paul condemn tongues? did he prohibit d act in church gathering?

sauer: How about 3 reasons a Christian should deceive himself?

As much as I have tried, I'm still unable to get my head around how these Christians utter the gibberish they do while "in spirit". And it's actually gibberish, cos no one understands it.
What exactly is the motive? To confuse? To consolidate a belief? Or to appear more "spirit-filled" than others, like in a competition?
I mean, I just don't get it!

You know, these things they utter are actually not so different from what the famous TV character, Papa Ajasco, lets loose when he crescendoes to a high point. Such high point, in his own case, can be inspired by the gentle touch of a fair lady, anger from his wife's nagging, or perhaps his son's subtle insults. He goes, "ogbigbi" or whatever.....I can't exactly place it now. Using this reference, it actually becomes quite clear that the gibberish they utter is from moment-inspired events. Events they probably only witness once in a while, and which they themselves have chosen to tie their incomprehensible utterances to.

The science of it is simple. You tie your utterances to specific moments. When they come you feel a sudden gush of feelings to your head, utter these words in order to feel in control and then relax to take charge of the situation. The words you utter in that intermediate stage could be anything. And when I mean anything, I mean anything!!

shdemidemi:
Tongues ke! Not again. A Christian does not have to speak gibberish to feel anything.

Not true bro, Paul tot and encourage d church about it. We ar part of d church.

shdemidemi:

Did the writer of the book of Genesis and Job and the prophets have first hand knowledge of the devil?

If Amos 3:6 says it is God, then I believe it is God.

Who destroyed sodom and Gomorrah, devil?

We both know dt d writer of Genesis (if human) wasnt present physically at Eden whn God created all, he wouldnt hav been present too whn satn decieved Eve & Adam sinned. Dts leaves us wit d questn of how did he know d event. Ds only cut out to b same as i ve said earlier (thru inspired vision/revelation). And sinc d satan was symbolic in his writings, he wouldnt hav had 1st hand knowlegde of satan else he would hav mentioned it. In visions/revelations/prophecies symbols are usually present as representation of d reality as seen also in d Book of Revelations. If u call d writer of Genesis today, he wont tell u he saw satan, he will say Serpent.

On Sodom and Gomorrah, u do proper study on why d wicked are judged then u will kno who did dt. Until we understand clearly dt d major influence to all evil ever is d hardness of man's heart (disobedient, rebellion which is by choice), the result of d Fall, and d act of d Devil we will never understand most dt happened in OT.

If u go wit Amos dt God is a destroyer, i wont argue further on dt but just align it wit wat Jesus said dt d thief(God) comes to steal, kill and destroy. I hop u can say dt.

I will lik to point ds out to u "Its undisputable dt God did inspired d writings of d scriptures but kno ds also dt though He did, He didnt insipire all d words said in d scriptures. eg God didnt inspire d devil's words. Dt gives a pointer dt some writings though inspired 4 our learnings, d speakers can definately b inspired by flesh, emotions and senses. Dt call 4 a proper study on d OT especially on d Prophets since they could only prophesy rightly whn d Spirit came on them and d Spirit wasnt permanent wit them. U kno it was also written in Isa 64:4

For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

And Paul repeated in (1Cor 2:9) dt in d light of who we are dt wat to see, to hear and to percieved hav been revealed unto us. Dt means thr are so many they (Prophets and d Law) couldnt know. GOD'S WORDS AND ACTS IN D SCRIPTURES ARE IN PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS. Thr were many things those ppl, d devil, d world didnt kno until Jesus.

We ought to study hard for approval, acknowledgement of d scriptures and dt wont come on d surface but d depth.

Bros, i will lik to rest ds discussion here but will advice u engage urself more in study of d scriptures to better unveil who d doer of evil is.
I hav got so many scriptures to debunk d interpretations of God preplanned alltins including evil, but i kno dt wont change anytin here. My heart desire is dt we all wit open face can behold clearly all dt were hidden from them for us dt we may kno God, d Only tru God as we ought, walking in His light as He is d Light.

shdemidemi:

In one word you say the writers knew about satan, in another word they don't. I will stick with scriptures on this, the bible won't substitute satan for God for no reason.

Bros, thr is no place i mentioned any writer in d OT hav 1st hand Satan knowlegde. Read thru my post again.

For d bolded. Are u saying u go wit d OT ppl to believ dt all evil done in OT is caused by God because dts thr believ. And u go also wit Prophet Amos who wrote:

Amos 3:6 ...shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

Bro, i m sure u dont.

shdemidemi: All I will say about the issue of who the angel of death is is that I will stick with who the bible says it is. If the bible says it is God, I believe it is God.

The scripture says "He killeth and maketh alive". That is an absolute statement and it is sufficient.

Bro, u said u chose 2stay wit wat d OT called d angel of death (God). Dt shows a refusal to study and find out, to divide d Word d and rightly come to d place of wat d scriptures meant.
U kno bro, ds exact holdin unto OT scriptures, whn done by believers who preaches tithes, u ll definately b very loud to condemn them of holdin to certain scriptures in isolations. But now u r holdin in isolation dt d angel of death is God because u read. We can adequately conclude also dt all d evil done in OT is by God since they ascribed all actions to him as i pointed out earlier.

Bro, d truth is evil is known in d OT but d source (devil) was never ever known. We dont live or read in such glasses today. We see clearly d doer of evil (The Devil).

shdemidemi:


Ok. Sir

Job 1

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”


The serpent in Genesis is also satan, isn't it?...

Bro, u didnt read dt post. If u hav u would hav known dt i mentioned d two cases. If i say knowledge, i mean knowing his existence as a being, understanding who he is, not as a shadow, symbol, vision, prophecies but in reality and clarity.

1. Book of Job mentioned Satan from d writer's view. Definately d above verse u wrote has to be a vision not known in understanding by d writer as we kno his existence today. Also, all d responses of Job and his friends showed dt he never understand wat was going on behind d scene. I pointed out dt aside visions/prophecies
u wont find any.

2. Serpent in Genesis is Satan. Yes. But u kno dt now because thr is NT. If all u hav today without Jesus coming is d OT, will u hav been able to say dt d Serpent is d Devil? Will u not still b reading d Serpent as animal deceived? Did d OT tell us dt d Serpent was d devil?

Bro, thr ar so much in d OT dt shows thr lack of understanding of God and Satan. Hence all evil/goodthey ascribed all to God. Thr are sooo much hidden from then for us.

shdemidemi: This your theology all in the name of trying to prove God has nothing to do with what you define as evil is laughable. They knew about satan from the Old Testament bro, in fact before the beginning.

Read your Genesis, Job and chronicles properly

Bro, pls can u point to me d scriptures whr they knew about Satan in OT outside vision and prophecies?

shdemidemi:

Who was the angel of death that killed the first sons of the Egyptians?

Who. Killed the 185000 Assyrians?

Broooooosss, is d angel of death God?

I always lik to pick ds topic from d start by saying ds.
Its clear in d scriptures dt NO ONE, i mean NO ONE in d Old Testaments (OT) has any knowlegde dt there is a being called d devil (Satan). Till Jesus came all d mention of d devil in d scriptures are either thru visions or prophecies. No man hav a definate understandin of who d devil is lik we ahv today.
All actions both evil and good were ascribed to God all thru d OT becos of thr understanding. Even d prophets who thru prophecies and vision hav a glare of d wicked one, they never hav been able to comprehend who he is. Hence u see scriptures lik.

Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem
1 Sam 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things
Even d writer of Genesis never know d devil but only kno him in shadow (the Serpent).
In all dt happened to Job, he never mentioned Satan thru out d book nor knew whether such evil bein exist. He ascribed all d evil to God.
...many more

U and Me kno better now. We kno d Serpent from d beginning is d devil (u cant kno dt from d OT), We kno better than Job, Amos, Isaiah etc.

Whn Jesus came, he showed us who d liar and d murderer,
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

He showed us whr lying tongues comes from, whr d killer comes from. He latter showed us who d destroyer is.

Christ gav d most striking statement of all age "Its d thief dt comes to steal, kill and destroy", i come to giv life (As d Father will always do) to uncover wat was missing d in OT. D DEVIL.

He was always behind d scene but an active actor.
The Apostles went further to unravell d accuser, Paul called him d holder of d Power of Death.

If our study can go beyond just unveiling d freedom from d Law in OT to unravelling d ignorance d OT had about d devil we will do well to discern d thin line drawn btw d act of God and dt of d devil in d OT.

shdemidemi:

Bible reference pls


My bible says it is God who works in us both to do and to WILL......what does your bible say?

D scripture about dont point to d fact dt man cant exercise his will against God.

Can i ask u some questions.
Why exactly do we hav to preach d gospel to every creation?
Wat is d essence Jesus gav us as d reason for preaching d gospel?
Does d gospel truly saves a man, any man dt accept it or its just a wiling away of time because God has already chosen those dt will b saved?

I will appreciate if u can giv me clear explanation from d scriptures.

shdemidemi: Pls answer questions

Was it good or evil that Joseph went to prison?

Was it good that jesus was killed shamefully?

Was it good that the nation of Israel had to be slaves for 400 years?

Was it good that the apostles had to suffer and die for the sake of the gospel?

Dont let us mix things up.

We are not talking whether its evil or good dt happened to some ppl or events. We are talking about whether its God dt causes d evil, whether he is d source of d evil done to them and to everyone.

Dts d deviation.

shdemidemi:


Did God say He rose pharaoh up to destroy him?

Did Jesus not know judas was gonna sell him out?

Did you not see a shadow of that story when Joseph's brothers sold him and he eventually went to prepare a place for them in Egypt, thesame way Christ did?

Does God not know the end from the beginning anymore?


God uses anything even the devil to carry out His will....

We can't reason God out, we can't limit him to our moral standards, we can't subject him to the law.....His ways are far far different from our ways.

The voice of the people as always been different from the voice of God. The voice of God is always isolated.

Bro, knowing end from beginning doesnt justify using evil. Infact dt jusfity more reason why God will never use/do evil. U said God uses anytin including evil. I believ d "uses" u wrote mean "work thru" but not dein d source of such anytin lik evil.

U proposed another list to justified ur claim but hav refused to look at who Jesus is to see God better.
A proper study showed d cause of Pharaoh's fall, a proper study showed d hardness of Joseph's brothers' heart (wickness by choice) to do him evil but God worked good out of thr evil. A proper study showed dt Judas as a person wasnt mentioned in prophecy as d one to betrayed Jesus. Prophecy are given, its left for every individual to mak a right choice so as not to b d one who fulfill evil prophecy. Judas as a person wasnt singled out as Mary as a person wasnt. These are ppl who made choices unto obedience or disobedience to fulfil prophecies, d same way u and i hav obeyed God to reciev salvation.

Bro, ds interpretation nullify man's free will to even accept d gospel hence nullify all d word of Christ.

...he dt believ in me, i will never cast out.
... who believ in me will not perish. etc.

U ll hav a lot of scriptures to strugggle wit to justify d interpretation because all of d warnings in epistles will fall useless on ds.

shdemidemi: I think the problem you seem to have is boxing God in what YOU call evil and what you call good. Adam and Eve were told they will be like God knowing evil and good- you and I are a victims of that today.


Until we renew our mind and stay within the tangent of scripture, we wld also be the determining factor for knowing good and evil; which is more like challenging what God calls good and evil.


Do you know the best thing God ever did to mankind? It was the shameful slaughter of His son on the tree. You wldn't ever call that good, would u? Especially if you were the mother of Jesus.


Please stick to scriptures and not your five senses that are tightly linked to the fallen man/structure.

Bro, I aint squeezing God in a box of evil/good. I m just concern about ur interpretation dt God has preplanned all things both evil and good for everyman and has chosen some to eternal life while others for eternal damnation. That put all events on earth as staged drama.

U hav still not cleared dt interpretations wit d scriptures. Really appreciate if all events and acts in d scriptures can b aligned to one interpretation. Dts wat all can learn from. Thanks.

frosbel: : To take away the responsibility of MAN to make a choice between good and evil , between salvation and death , between God and Satan is to turn MAN into an inconsequential robot and truly makes a rubbish of the concept of salvation.

God has not created some for destruction and some for life, God is not unjust , he has provided equal opportunity for ALL to choose life or death.

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" - Deuteronomy 30:19

shdemidemi:

Are you sure?


Romans 9
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

@shidemidemi, With our last discussions, i m sure i clearly laid out to u how believin dt God causes everytin (evil/good) to happen is a BIG contradiction to d scriptures. D scriptures cannot stand in division. U dont base a doctrine on single verses, which i hav seen u do most times.
Doctrines cant b based in a single verse and doctrine cant be based on a recorded vision except supported elaborately by other scriptures.
U raised d issue with Joseph, David, Paul etc. which i cleared adequately for u to see dt God never override thr choice but they thru obedient recieved jsutifications.

Ur stand of God overriding man's Will is inadequate to explain Adam's choice, Devil's rebellion, Cain's choice, Salvation thru choice etc and definately put all to mean (I do all dt i do becos God has planned it 4me (whether evil or good)). Do we then blame anyone to who refuses to believ? Do we blame anyone for crime, was Moses then justified to punish those who broke d Law? Hav u ever considered why God proclaimed d judgement on Adam, Eve and d Serpent. Wont dt look lik a staged movie if God Actually planned Adam's Fall? Many more events in d scriptures will fall into d categories of theater art if we ar to go by ur interpretation.

U r preaching dt God created a man, took his Will to do good and then force him to do evil becos He has planned him for destruction, God then go ahead to punish him again for d evil God created him to complete. Do u see how dt sounds?

If we want to see who God is, look at Jesus. He s d perfection of all God has to say and do. As i ve told u b4, God has never made any man do evil, neither has He done any b4. Until we start seeing dt all evil ever committed from d creation of H/E is due to d Fall, the hardness of man, and d works of d devil, we ll always ascribe all of it to God as did d ppl of d OT. God cannot do evil but He s in d business of using all evil caused by d above mentioned to bring about wat is good/perfect.

I tot of sharing this message with brethren here. It really blessed my heart.

Something to think upon (for ministers )

"It’s not about winning a debate or proving the other side wrong (whichever side that may be from your perspective). It’s a matter of humbling ourselves before the Lord and before one another, listening rather than fighting and honoring rather than attacking, even when we have to speak corrective words.

Isn’t this what Jesus, the Head of the body, deserves? Isn’t this what He expects?

Baptist evangelist Vance Havner, speaking of the Lord’s description of the church of Ephesus in Revelation 2, had this to say:

“One may be as straight as a gun barrel theologically and as empty as a gun barrel spiritually. In fact, it may be that in their very opposition to evil men and false teachers these Ephesian saints had left their first love. ... So often it turns out that fundamental and orthodox Christians become so severe in condemning false doctrine, gnashing their teeth at every sniff of heresy, that they end up without love. One may do a right thing in a wrong way. The same Paul who wrote, ‘... though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel ... let him be accursed,’ also wrote the love chapter to the Corinthians. Unless we can get that combination we shall be theological Hawkshaws and doctrinal detectives, religious bloodhounds looking for heretics but with hot heads and cold hearts.”

Yes, it’s easy to say, “But it’s the other folks who are guilty of this, not us!” but then turn around and do the very thing we accuse others of doing. How does that advance the gospel? How does that glorify Jesus? How does it break the cycle of judgmental-ism?

D.L. Moody once wrote to a colleague, “The only way any church can get a blessing is to lay aside all difference, all criticism, all coldness and party feeling, and come to the Lord as one man; and when the church lives in the power of the thirteenth chapter of First Corinthians I am sure that many will be added daily to the flock of God.”

Of course, this is easier said than done, but if we genuinely believe that we need each other and honestly believe that two are better than one and that a threefold cord is not easily broken (Eccl. 4:9-12), we will be much more willing to put down our boxing gloves and reach out a hand of fellowship and understanding.

In his open letter to Southern Baptists in 2007, missionary leader David Shibley noted, “When G. Campbell Morgan was asked if he was a fundamentalist he replied, ‘In doctrine, yes, but I abominate their spirit.’”

Morgan also said, “I seldom find men strenuously fighting what they are pleased to call heterodox teaching, and in bitter language denouncing false doctrine, without being more afraid for the men denouncing than for the men denounced.”

Did you get that? Sometimes our wrong attitude is more dangerous than the wrong doctrine we oppose.

Yes, Morgan said, “There is an anger against impurity which is impure. There is a zeal for orthodoxy which is most unorthodox. There is a spirit that contends for faith which is in conflict with faith. If men have lost their first love, they will do more harm than good by their defense of the faith. Behind the denunciation of sin there must always be the tenderness of first love if that denunciation is not to become evil in its bitterness. Behind the zeal for truth, there must always be the spaciousness of first love if that zeal is not to become narrowed into hate. There have been men who have become so self-centered in a narrowness that they are pleased to designate as holding the truth, that the very principle for which they contend has been excluded from their life and service. All zeal for the Master that is not the outcome of love to Him is worthless.”-Michael Brown

[i]Culled from my Pastor's notes.

frosbel: Man is saved by grace through faith , but he must exercise this faith to be saved.

To suggest that God allows human beings to be born , knowing that a greater majority are damned at birth is a a huge fallacy.

We all have a choice to make and God respects this.

Absolutely tru and LOUD in d scriptures.

shdemidemi:

I receive understanding by studying and learning scriptures ..finito

The scripture never said the Holy Spirit will speak to me, God never talks to me but through the volume of the books....He is my comforter meaning He gives me strength to do what I cannot naturally do.
I believe you also get your understanding by reading scriptures or do you?

Whn u hear ppl say" God talked to them". It doesnt hav to mean they heard a voice or a knock. God speaks to our spirits, minister revelation to us thru it, sometimes whn studying, sometimes in place of prayer. I ve got several expressions in my spirits about many issues concerning me and others. I ve recieved severally whn teaching God's Word expressions about ppl's situations. I usually dont base d sharing of God's Word on human experience but 4d sake of ds discussion let me share this.
I was invited to a small fellowship gathering some years back to minister. As i was teaching i recievd an expression in my spirit for a guy to pray for his Dad, i never kno him from Adam and all i could sensed is go to him and pray for his Dad. I approached him and asked, wats wrong wit his Dad. he told me dt his Dad has been on sick bed for almost two years without solution. Wat ll u call dt? Did i plan it? No. Do i kno d guy b4? No.

Was in a ten man prayer meeting sometimes back, got expression in my spirit to pray, dt i will b sack 2moro (i never had any issue ind office). As i kno myself, i just felt its not possible because i kno how much d company needed me. I refused to mention it. The evening of next day,after reaching home from work without issues, a brother who was wit us in dt prayer meeting came to my place to show me his sack letter. He was sacked d next day of d revelation. Bro, till 2day i still believd i caused d sack because of my disobedient. I maynt hav recieved in expression fully well but d message is clear (sack).

In as much as d demonstration of Spirit gifts shouldnt b for show off or personal benefit, they must definately not b taken for granted as being extinct.

DrummaBoy: Read my blog. See my signature. Like I said: no luxury of time. Cheers.

I ve definately gone thru it. Ur stand in 5 was on d fact dt Word of Faith preaches to acquire for self and for self glorification.
Firstly, in as much as i hav some reservation for d so called Word of Faith, i m always careful in generalizing issues. Ur claim dt d preacher of Word of Faith is to fulfil thr lust wont be absolutely true. I will leave dt for them to defend wat they do.

Secondly, I will quite advise if u can find time to go thru my tots again from d beginning of ds post, tell u mit fully understand my stand. D preaching of d gospel is d call of every believer and i can confidently to tell u dt d assembly i identify wit, its a lifestyle of every member, wit proper guide and training to established u as a minister of d gospel evrywhr u are. whr i will always defer from d most tots here is whn we talk of God bein d source of everytin to show His glory. Dt places God in a position to do evil also in other to show His glory.
u mentioned God sovereignty in all situation. Can i ask, wat do u think will b God's Will whn u r on d field preaching and sees a man tormented all his life by infirmities? Wat do u think d mind of God will be on dt. Like i said earlier, if u want to kno wat God's Will in any situation, look at Jesus, wat will Jesus want to do in such situation. In all situations we read about him, he was willing to heal, save and delivered, Dts exactly d Will of God. Does God Will ppl sick? ppl crushed in accidents? in disasters? If dts wat it is, then dts an evil God. But glory b to God, thr is no evil in God.

In all God's sovereignty, He never causes evil. Evil are due to d Fall, men's heart and d accuser.