bennyraz: @pagan9ja, ur moniker as spoken for itself so I understand ur opinion.. @sarassin , u should have just come out straight instead of been sarcastic and @pastor kun, how will d church grow if people don't pay tithe? my opinion on tithing is that it should be done out of freewill. And come to think of it, how will the workers in the vineyard sustain themselves if people don't pay their tithes? how will the church grow? tithes is not the reason for this thread but first fruit is and @drummaboy, I think I'll go with PST. Tunde Bakare's version if that is what he said. I will look for the message. tnks

Well just passin by but i will lik u to kno dt many churches of d living God can and have been surviving without tithe/first fruits and other form of offerings dt places conditions on members/giving either directly or indirectly, At least i kno my assembly with over 200 workers and still increasing, we give and give and give to d work as purposed in our heart when needs arise. And i m bold to tell u we are growing daily in ministries, abounding in d work of d Lord.

D truth is, believers do give more than d "conditioned" givin to sustain d work whn they are tot aright on how, why, when and where to give as laid down by d Apostles.

Gombs:

That's what the OP has been screaming since page 1... that's what we all in effect are trying to project... but these folks don't wanna agree, just because it would put a big question mark on their stance with regards tithing. Funny fellas

Why do u always refer to tithe on all issues, is dt ur motive for most discussions or d reason why some hav to defend d Moses at all cost?

Continuation from above ^^^^

D Spirit of Life commanded us in d gospel/epistles all of God's commandments for a new creation. Do u see words of Paul whn u read commandments in NT or words of God? Or do they actually seems lik commandments to u, since thr is no thou shall, thou shall? Lets look at some.

Matt 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Matt 6: 19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Matt 6: 25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Rom 12: 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom 12: 11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Rom 12: 14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Rom 12: 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 13: 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
1 Corith 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1 Corith 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
2 Corith 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 6: 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Ephe 4: 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephe 5: 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Ephe 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Ephe 6: 18 Praying always wit all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watchin thereunto with all perseverance and supplication 4all saints;
Phil 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
Col4: 2 Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;
1 Thess 5: 17 Pray without ceasing.
James 1: 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
1 Pet 3: 1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives.

Time wont allow to exhaust d Law of Life as given in d scriptures to d believers.

If all ds doesn't seem lik God's commandments to u, then u r in d flesh serving Moses. As Moses received instructions of sin and death from God to Isrealites, d Apostles hav been given d instructions of life to us by His Spirit, Christ laying d foundation.

Wat a believer would i hav been, if Moses is my foundation of knowing God's mind. I would hav lust and still believ i didnt fornicate, i would hav hate and still believ i v not kill, i would hav hate, persecute my enemy and still believ i m in God, infact i could giv under compulsion and think God is happy. But thanks b to God for d Spirit of Life, who gav us His New commandments, not as d old which was weak (demandin without assisting) but dt which gives life, ability, strength to do Christ bidding.

Let us allow d writings of d Spirit come alive in our heart as seen in d epistles, laying down d old vessels and putting on d life of d Spirit.

On d last day, no Christian will b judged/examined according to Moses but according to wat d Spirit gav us (Christ and His Words).

When a minister says we re no longer under d law, d law brethren always come wit a reaction: are u saying we should continue sinning, should we murder, steal etc. My little survey about the law brethren in d past showed clearly dt they are d folks who actually preach to men and encourage men to transgress God's commandments.

A man dt doesnt see d different btw God's instructions in d Law of d Spirit and Law of Moses will continually elevate d latter. Some of them even go ahead to say it just a modification, yet in thr life, teaching and living, Moses remains thr foundational principles for knowing wat to do right and wat is wrong.

We see them elevate robbery above lying, fornication above malice etc. Wat a veil dt fills d freed.

It a pity dt many after claimin to hav read d scriptures for ages, are yet to see clearly d abolish-ment of Moses. They claim same meaning to Christ words and Moses commandments. A man dt see words like Evil in NT and see/read same meaning as mentioned in Moses to him is yet to see d tru Light. It will b hard 4such to clearly see dt:

Wat Epistles/Jesus called evil is not d same as wat Moses known as evil.
Wat Epistles/Jesus called love is not d same as wat Moses known as love.
Wat Epistles/Jesus called justice is not d same as wat Moses known as justice.
Wat Epistles/Jesus called enemy is not d same as wat Moses known as enemy.
Epistles/Jesus called worship is not d same as wat Moses known as worship.

On and on. D Moses brethren seem just too lazy to hold to Christ instructions or see it as commandments but rather as advice.

A fellow asked, so whr is d Law of d Spirit written, another said, d diff is dt Moses is now written in our heart is d Law of d Spirit. I feel sad lots of time whn we read and cant still see wat was written boldly, repeatedly, some times exhaustively. The challenge is most folks want to see d word Law b4 they kno its d Law, instructions and commandments from God.

A man dt lives by and in d spirit should kno dt d Gospels and Epistles contain far more instructions/commandments from d Spirit than all Moses penned down. But its a pity dt whn we hav not seen it as a type in Moses we never see it as God's commandments by d Spirit.

Law of d Spirit of Life
D Law of d Spirit, an absolute change of Moses wasnt just written in our heart, we are given/tot/inform about it thru out d Epistles.
When Jesus gave commandment in Mark 16:15

vs 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Law brethren never kno dts d Spirit given God's commandment to us, it seems lik advice dts why most dont even mention it on d altar, they set department for it. Many will tell u i hav never stole b4 since i gav my life to Christ, yet he has never seen his abrupt disobedient to not preaching d gospel as an eternal sin. (He evelates Moses' than Christ's)

Jesus called his words commandments
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Paul used a very succint word to lay out dt all instructions he gav to d church ar God's commandments and not advice (He made it clear whn ever he s using his own intellect by God's approval to instruct, as shown in 1 Corith 7:6,25)

6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

Even John in epistles of John called his word commandments.

Until d instructions in NT comes alive in ur heart as d commandments, outcry, desires, statutes and of God to u and not an advice, u r still veiled.

Continue below>>>>

Bidam: And that was why i ask you to list the law of the spirit of life here and you can't even say anything on it..except for you to keep hammering on it. Jesus emphasized on the Spirit of the LAW. IT IS JUST A PLAY OF WORDS AND YOU CAN'T EVEN SEE IT.. The law of the spirit of life is actually the laws written in the heart of believers by the Holy Spirit.. nothing more.. the last time i checked the scripture, it did not say the law God gave Moses is the law of sin and death. Most theologians interpret it that way but it is wrong.

It is the levitical laws that requires the death of an animal to cleanse Man from sin not the moral laws of God which are life changing and eternal and are the embodiments of love.

All the whole ten commandments God gave Moses are still copied verbatim by Paul so i don't know where you got your own revelation from that they were abolished. Let's look at them and see.

Commandment 1: Paul said, "God, who made the world and everything in it...they should seek the Lord" (Acts 17:24,27). Paul also said, "I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law" (Acts 24:14). "And what agreement has the temple of God have with idols?" (II Cor 6:16). "you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" (I The 1:9).

Bro. d point u r trying hard to prove doesn't exist. its more lik findin something to say.

Paul called it law of sin and death not ppl. he called it weak, condemnation etc.

if u after checkin d law of moses side by side wit d words of Jesus, instructions of paul still feels its an upgrade, then enjoy it. Time won't allow to even talk about commandment given on prayers, giving, preaching etc as given by d Spirit. I wonder how moses would hav handled that in his law.

Lik I said, if u beleiv u r under and liv by such law, enjoy it wit its veil. I m not here to win discussion but to do my part by showin that d veil has been lifted and we are now in a new Kingdom and a new law. Set at liberty from d old to serve God in newness of life.

Bidam: The issue i am pointing out to you is moses teachings penned down from genesis to Deuteronomy not some 613laws you guys always flash in our faces here..There are principles to be gleaned from those books. i can see you can't even discern spiritual truths from scriptures. Must you see it written faith in black and white before you believe? Here are some scriptures for you to see and tell me what you think.

Most of the OT guys based there Faith on what God has said:

NUMBERS 23:19
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: has he said, and shall he not do it? Or has he spoken and shall he not make it good?

Bro, i didnt write ds, Paul did

Ga 3:12 And [the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

If u think d Law of d Spirit is an upgrade of Moses, continue and live by it. If u feel Love, Mercy, Adultery for u as a believer are established by Moses, continue in it.

U cant claim to live by d Law of d Spirit written in our heart and still hold dearly to Moses. Paul called such heart, veiled!! it s a shadow of separation from d reality.

Thr is a singular question i asked thru out my post and seems not to b answered till now. Its a d foundational question which whn we hav answers to, we will kno whr to build on in our work wit God. I ask again. I ll appreciate individual responses.

WAT LAW DO U LIVE BY? LAW OF D SPIRIT OF LIFE OR LAW OF SIN AND DEATH (MOSES).

mba emeka:


Joagbaje has already answered you. God already handed down instructions to Adam and co by mouth or in any way audible. A case in point was the do not eat out of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil instruction he gave to Adam. Subsequently he gave moses the law which he had to write down. The law became an avenue to know the dos and don't s of God. Paul explained that in Romans 3:19-20. The law contained moral and ethical principles that are still relevant today especially in showing what is right and wrong. The apostles made reference to it. They encouraged their followers to do like wise.

Is this even a discussion?

Jesus didn't abolish the law. He came to fulfill it thereby ushering us into God's only plan for righteousness - through him. We cannot teach or believe otherwise. It foments some of the errors we see today- gay marriages and what not.

Bro, d Law given to Adam, Abraham, Cain etc, were they d Law of Moses? Dont mix up all God's instructions as d law of Moses.

2ndly, u said Jesus fulfilled d Law not abolished it? U mit need to study on wat Jesus meant b4 reach such conclusion. Or was Jesus contradicting Paul (2 Corith 3)? To help, as i ve written b4, Jesus fulfilled, settled, accomplished d Law of Moses for u and me, for our righteousness as written in Rom 8:3-4, Gal 3:23-25. Afterwards we were freed from d schoolmaster (law of Moses) and translated to a kingdom whr d Law of d Spirit reigns.

Let me help put dt verse in a very easy meaning.
KJV: Matt 5:17 17 --Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Meaning: Think not dt i came to destroy (banish, to tell u its bad and evil) but i hav come to fulfill (complete, satisfy, accomplish) its requirements.

Do u remember Rom 10:4 4 For Christ is the end (termination, finality) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. After dt, he gave u a New Law, Christ Law, Law of d Spirit of Life. Dts wat we live by now bro.

If u refuse to lust after a lady. Bro, u r not obeying d Law of Moses, but d Law of Christ. Moses allowed u to lust continually provided u dont act.
If u love ur enemies and pray for them. Bro, u r not in d Law of Moses then, dts d Spirit of Life at work in u. Moses told us to take eye for eye.

Do u see d difference? Its thin but clear.

Bidam: Yes..The passover was kept by Faith..Ex 12:21 in reference to Heb 11:28..The patriachs were justified by Faith not by Law...Do go beyond the letters abeg..

Bro, i didnt asked if anyone acted in faith b4 or during d law, which is wat u pointed out. I asked if d law of Moses ever talked about faith? Ppl hav acted on Faith even b4 d Law. But my question is does d Law asked/talked about it? And d love and judgement d Law talked about, is it d same as what Jesus taught and wat is written in ur heart today as a believer?

What you are insinuating here is that we should discard the whole torah from Genesis to Malachi because the are of a different era. And we shouldn't glean any principles from them.

I didnt say it, d epistles told us according to 2Corith 3.
Wat we hav today as believers, is d Law of d Spirit and its never ever d same as Moses.
From ur own bible study, if u could call Moses and Jesus to a debate to explain thr understanding about thr Laws (Moses and Christ), do u think they will align? For example.

1. Do u think MURDER has d same definition in d mind of Christ as it is in mind of Moses?
2. What about love, will they hav given u same explanation/definition?
3. What about justice, mercy, faith etc.

Jesus didnt modify Moses o, He gav us a new one (Law, commandment, instructions). he fulfilled Moses and set/laid His own for us to follow.

If your christianinty is limited to only new testament epistles which according to you started from acts of the apostle then i wish you luck.

These are books i read in 2days and i still hungry for more sef....[/b]

I dont understand d above o, but i understand dt a Christian lives by d Law of d Spirit of Life. Can u tell me wat u live by? Law of d Spirit of Life or Law of sin and death?

Joagbaje:

The subject of discussion is not faith . Its about the condemnation of the law and the old testament scriptures.

My point is that the law is still very relevance because it contains foundational principles . Early apostles quoted from the law because the only scripture they had was the law and prophets .

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
.

So if you take away the Old Testament . You have taken away the scriptures

If u still by now wont get wat i m discussing, i think i will hang it thr. My explanation of d distinctn btw d two were clearer than d noonday. If a believer feel he is under d reign of d law of sin and death, then let him enjoy it, whn Light shall come, he will kno d spirit he is made off.

Gombs: guess this has been discuss exhaustively... I'd however watch from the sidelines. Would be away for a large part of today though...ajayi, thanks for you time and civil nature.

I appreciate d spirit here too. Tanx bro.

Joagbaje:

There was no written document . Information about God was handed down with mouth . It has it's own challenge .

Genesis 18:19
For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Documents remains without alteration .the law of Moses put all together both the one handed down by mouth and the one pened down at Gods instruction .

The issue is not about being a law for us but rather foundational principles and references. A new creation has no commandment to obey but he is a doer of the principles in the word.

U quoted ds passage in ur Op

Psalms 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

Ds d same reason dt d Moses' Law couldnt b foundation of R/W for believers. Its a path to condemnation.

Joagbaje:

Abraham was the father of faith. And we took after him na.

Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Romans 4:12
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Did d Law of Moses ever talked about Faith? If u study Matt 23:23 well, u will kno wat it refers to.

Gombs:

Jesus said
...and have omitted the [size=16pt] weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: [/size] these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

By ur abv post...faith, mercy and justice is discarded....weldone o... remember folks of old had faith, eg david, joshua, ...folks of old too had justice and mercy too.

Congratulations!

Not too good hiding behind ppl's statement without putting any forth.

I will ask u to go and make comparison of d below then u can come back.

MERCY/LOVE: Are d definition and content of Mercy/Love according to Moses (weightier Law) same as dt of d Law of d Spirit?
JUDGMENT: Are d definition and content of Judgment according to Moses (weightier Law) same as dt of d Law of d Spirit?
FAITH: Are d definition and content of Faith according to Moses (weightier Law) same as dt of d Law of d Spirit?

Do check very well, Christ definition of Love, Mercy, Faithfulness, Judgment. I bet u will find d Law of Moses wanting in all.

If u still see d Law of d Spirit as amendment, continuation or modification of Moses, that will b a serious matter o.

I dont live by such inadequacy of Moses's Law but by Christ New Law (Law of d Spirit).

Gombs:

Seems u have a problem with answering simple direct kweshun...

Well if u cant see my stand in those post i will giv u a simple one.

I dont live by d Law of Moses (sin and death) nor d weightier of it, they are done away wit. I live by d Law of d Spirit of Life.

Gombs:

Pls answer me first

Is it not on Matt 23:23?
I hav already answered u in d post u quoted from. Its here again.

On Matt 23:23; Someone already told u wat d weightier things of d Law were as said by Jesus. But do u actually think those are d same as in d Law of d Spirit? Do u think the weightier thing (love) as given in d Law of Moses is d same as given by d Spirit of life? See wat d Law says about love:

Matt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. (Ds is wat d Law called Love)

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (Ds is wat d Spirit calls Love).

How is d above d same message, law, instructions, commandments? How? How is Moses (moral law) as u called it d same as Christ Law. How?

At d end of d tunnel of Moses thr resides d Light, d Spirit and God. Until we reach such end we mit not b able to differentiate btw d Spirit and Moses.

Alwaystrue:

If you could cool down and read what I have been saying from the beginning of my post on this thread, you will understand that I said behind every law of the letter was the law of the Spirit.

The law of the Spirit is 'Do not lust'; the law of the letter is 'Do not commit adultery'. Jesus came to give the full expression, the fulfilment of the law not ANNUL it. Whoever goes ahead to physically commit the adultery ( that is bring to reality the lust in his heart) has placed himself under the law (Gal. 5:18, he is not walking in the Spirit) and needs to run back to Jesus for MERCY and grace to HELP. That us the school master bringing is to Christ like the adulterous woman that Christ said 'Go nd Sin no more'. Commiting physical adultery has consequencess that many suffer from even today.
If the person does not carry out the lust, he has still sinned in God's eyes and needs to ask for forgiveness from God.

Ok, from ur explanation above lets do a Q and A. Who is a sinner (brother A or B or both) and according to wat Law?

Questions
1. Brother A lust towards his neighbour's wife but couldnt commit adultery
2. Brother B lust and ended up commiting adultery with his neighbour's wife?

Answers (which i believ u support)
1. Brother A is not a sinner according to Law of Moses but he is a sinner according to d law of d Spirit.
2. Brother B is a sinner even b4 d act according to d Spirit but could b justified by Moses if he hasn't action ed it.

Now, sister. If two countries run ds two laws seperately, will u say they are d same or alike? If country A which supported Moses b4 changed thr law to d Spirit, will they still b bound by Moses instructions again? Sister, in our time, well trained lawyer will win d case in court if his country runs Moses law and his client was to be condemned by just lusting. He will be set free.

Dts exactly wat Spirit and Moses is about. Two distinct Laws in applications, consequences, judgments.

Do u kno wat it means to fulfil d Law as Jesus said? D law needed fulfillment for righteousness to b available thru faith.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Rom 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {for sin: or, by a sacrifice for sin}
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Dts fulfilling d Law. He satisfied, settled it, wit all its requirements for u and me. Its fulfilled, obsolete, passed away and gave way to d Law of d Spirit of Life, the Law of God, d glorious Law of liberty. Whr we love All (including our enemies) not just our neighbour as Moses gave, whr we pray for them dt hurt and persecute us, whr we giv not becos we are bargaining to be blessed (as given in Moses) but because He has blessed us, whr we dont lust (as allowed by Moses) after another but filled wit d Spirit. I can go on and on.

Everytime i see d Law of d Spirit, i see d inadequacy of Moses to hav existed side by side wit it, i see clearly d reason of its fulfillment and annulment in Christ.

Gombs:

Jesus said...u are purified by the words is speak to you... John 15v3....who was he addressing?

You dare say some of Jesus' sayings are done away with, as in, they no longer apply to us..even when he said the words that He speaks to us ARE (not will be or were) SPIRIT and LIFE ...how then did you conclude some of his words no longer apply to us?

Bidam asked Zikky a kweshun he couldn't answer, I would ask u same in the same light as you folks think Jesus hadntwo audiences at the time CHRISTIANS and JEWS
From the above bold consider this Scripture

John 3v3
KJV:Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Was Jesus addressing a Jew or the whole world? Does this apply to a Jew today?

As for the scripture in Luke u quoted, let's see the NLT

:Then Jesus instructed him not to tell anyone what had happened. He said, “Go to the priest and let him examine you. Take along the offering required in the law of Moses for those who have been healed of leprosy. This will be a public testimony that you have been cleansed.

Can't you see? We are back to the types of category in the law... drummerboy said there are no such categories... are you of such ideology? What I and op are saying is, the moral and ethical parts of the law are eternal, example of such was in matt 23v23... let mie ask you, in matt 23v 23, the weightier matters of the law Jesus was talking about, do they still apply to you today or is it discarded?

If u can't answer any, pls answer my last question. Thank you

If u tell me dt Luk 4:15 doesnt apply to us again, is it not also d word of Jesus? As u described, we ar to carry out every word from d Master. How will those b done away wit and others remain. I think from ur explanations all should remain. 2 Corith 3 never categorize Law, it called it one name: Moses. And he said its Law of condemnation, sin and death.

If u believ Christ supported tithing, isnt it clear here dt he supported animal sacrifice too?I won t agree wit u neglectin a part of it in d name of it was done away wit. The truth is, two laws cant exist side by side. Thr is a law of sin and death in Moses and a law of Spirit of life in Christ. Its not a modification, or upgrade, its a total annulment of old for d new. It amazed me why we still see d Law of d Spirit side by side wit d Moses, They dont even resemble each other. In applications, effects, consequence, judgment etc. Do u compare all ds to kno d difference? Mayb u should.

Also, can u tell me, of wat Law do u live by? Law of d Spirit or Law of Moses?

On Matt 23:23; Someone already told u wat d weightier things of d Law were as said by Jesus. But do u actually think those are d same as in d Law of d Spirit? Do u think the weightier thing (love) as given in d Law of Moses is d same as given by d Spirit of life? See wat d Law says about love:

Matt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. (Ds is wat d Law called Love)

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (Ds is wat d Spirit calls Love).

How is d above d same message, law, instructions, commandments? How? How is Moses (moral law) as u called it d same as Christ Law. How?

At d end of d tunnel of Moses thr resides d Light, d Spirit and God. Until we reach such end we mit not b able to differentiate btw d Spirit and Moses.

Alwaystrue: @Bidam,
The people in the time of Christ that believed Jesus were called BELIEVERS. Jews believed, pharisees believes, the Samaritan woman believed.
Believers were tagged Christians afterwards like we have people tagged SU and Spirikoko nowadays.

What we see are people who pick the words of Paul as the infallibility of the bible and try to see how Jesus words fit into it, instead of Jesus words being the ultimate and any other apostles words, teachings, doctrines seen in the light of Christ words by the understanding of the Holy Spirit.
The Bereans heard the word of Paul and checked if it aligned with the Scripture not the other way round.

That is why Peter said some have twisted the words of Paul to mean what is not as they twist other aspects of Scripture.

Christ said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it? Have they asked themselves what that really means in line with what Paul said? No they pick their own interpretation of what Paul said as the ultimate. Paul has said he did not come to save them but they should follow him as he follows Christ? How do they know soeone who follows Christ if they claim Christ's word's do not hold meaning to them.
Paul also said imitate God. The bible also says let the words of CHRIST dwell in us richly in all wisdom.

In the NT bible time, their apostles were the disciple of Christ, Paul, Timothy etc. Christ was their foundation which their doctrine was built on.
We have our apostles, prophets and other gifts of Christ to the church today as well...we follow them AS they follow Christ just as Paul said to the church foe they could physically see him; and we can only know if they are following Christ by the Spirit of God when the Words of Christ dwell richly in us.

Sorry Sister, I m yet to find any one here now who claim Christ words has no effect, or Paul's teaching varied from Christ. I m yet to read dt.
D only question i may ask u is dt, do u as a Christian practice/intending to practice line for line every word of Jesus as written in d Gospels? If Yes, we hav a long discussion, if No, Why not if all does his words are for us.

Gombs:

all other things Jesus said "was for 'Christians' " but the tithe part was for Jews.... so, Jesus had two audiences he was addressing at the time...even though the apostles were first called Christians in antioch!....fascinating.

Una dey try o

Bro, d dividing line btw d audience of Christ words are so thin but clear by d Spirit. U definitely cant tell me dt all Jesus account in Matt-John still applies to us today. In sincerity will u say because Jesus said to a Jew, do ds, dt means we should all b doing it? No. We need to search to know how dt applies to a New Creation. If u agree dt all Jesus said is for us then wat about ds he said:

Lu 5:14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

If u agreed Jesus supported Tithing, u should agree he supported ds also, in fact according to Moses commandment:

Lev 14: 4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: {birds: or, sparrows}
5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:

Bro, do u still do ds And pls dont come up wit Jesus has saved us from soooo and soooo. Lets apply across board lik u informed.

mba emeka:

If after reading such a response one still veers off into unfounded nitpicking there is no hope for such a person.

It is so clear. The apostles used the OT. Paul's epistles were his epistles turned scripture to us. He quoted copiously from the OT in his teachings. How Drummaboy continues to drivel on in incoherent responses boggles me. Joagbaje never said the OT makes a man righteous (justification) he simply said it contains very important principles that are still applicable today and the scriptures give him credence as we can see that the apostles used the OT too. . .alot!

People shouldn't try to throw the baby away with the bath water by rejecting the principles of the OT because they want to reject the tithing aspect of it (which already existed before the law was given)

Bro morning. Pls dont bring in dt part of tithe as mentioned in d Law existed b4 d Law. Its always good to make clear distinction on time and purpose of instructions as given in d bible.

D Op made it clear in his title dt no man (including believers) can kno d right and wrong outside Moses Law. Dts pure error. And linking dt wit tithe and offering issues again is open insincerity on d Op's side and dts wat u ar doing too.

Was right and wrong known in d days of Adam, Noah, Enoch, Abraham etc without such Law of sin and death given? Did they kno right/wrong or not?

Alwaystrue:

When Jesus was speaking in the bible, telling us that he that lust after a woman commits adultery, and he that hates his brother is more or less killing him, what Laws are those? Are they of the Spirit or of the Letter.
When we fulfil the laws Christ gave us with examples I stated above, is the law of the 'do not commit adultery' or 'do not kill' broken or fulfilled?

When Jesus spoke about the weighthier aspects of the Law in Matthew 23:23 that is love, faith, mercy, were these laws of the Spirit or of the letter?
Whatever answer you have to those questions, will make go a long way in understanding my post.
The law of sin and death tried to make a man righteous from outside in which did not work. Christ came to work on the inner man bringing righteousness from the inside out. Jesus words cleanse. That is why it is shocking for purported Christians who claim Christ word's are not directed to them. They just shown they don't know what they believe at all.
Jesus Christ is the foundation, we should take heed what type of material we build on Christ. Every single thing Christ said is Truth!

For your information, there is still a ministration of death even in the NT. (2 Cor. 2:15-16). And the law of sin and death still applies to those who do not walk after the Spirit....Galatians 5:18

To u in all sincerity, do u think d bolded Jesus statement above was in or written in d Law of Moses? Seriously, wit sincerity. Did d Law of Moses condemned he who looked at another man's wife lustfully? Wat was d written consequence then?
Moses Law condemned direct adultery. Infact in his (Moses) days, ppl must hav lust over and over with out judgement because they were not found in d act of adultery as written in d Law. U dont judge a man on a Law dt doesnt exist.

Moses Law:--Exo 20: 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Jesus Words:---Matt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Do u actually believed Jesus was recognizing d Law here? No, he was annulling it by bringing d reality. He quoted dt not to show them to do it but to show its inadequacy. U actually think dt Jesus statement was from d Law? No it wasnt, ppl would hav lusted in d Law of Moses and go free because d Law doesnt capture/require dt. It's a Law dt never existed b4.
If a country change a particular Law, does d former exist side by side wit d latter? Its more lik Jesus actually givin another Law concerning adultery, infact if Jesus was a ruler lik Moses, from thereforth any man who lust after a woman will b judge wit out committing d act. Is dt d Law of Moses?

Most times whn we talked about d Law of Moses is done away wit, some Law brethren think we ar saying go and do watever u lik, no Law again. Ds has prevented many from doing proper study to kno wat such statement meant. Hence it raises confusion on struggling btw grace and works.

On d bolded (2). Can u let us kno by wat Law do u live by? Law of d Spirit or Law Sin and Death. Do u think a man can live by both? Or thr is a mix of d two?

2 Cor 2:15-16 talked about those who still take such Law as foundation to rightness and wrong, those who found it hard to b seperated from Moses.

But u hav neglected vs 17-18 dt talked about d veil lifted, in d Spirit, in liberty from Moses. Except we refuse to believ d words and terms used by Bro Paul in seperating d two. Its so clear dt u cant operate under d two.

So i ask u again, under wat Law do u (Alwaystrue) operates now to kno d truth.

Alwaystrue:

Of a truth, studying to shew ourselves approved of God cannot be underemphasized. It is the blueprint.
God said 'My people' perish for lack of knowledge. God was saying His people perish not some heathen. We have been given all that pertains to life and godliness and as such we need to understand by His word (books) how to go about living the abundantly life God has given us. Paul says we needs to press on to lay hold of what Christ has won us for Himself. The onus is on us to press in.

Genesis 26:5 says that Abraham obeyed God's voice, and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws...even before it was WRITTEN down. There is always the law in our spirit that let's us know when we are doing right or wrong so much that we don't have the inner peace on the Spirit gives if we keep going against His will and when we search the scriptures we find it is actually written. There are so many things we see newly in the word of God that speaks life, light to our way and is a lamp to our feet. It is just amazing.

Sister, is d Law of d Spirit, written in our heart d same as d Law of sin and death? Paul made a very clear distinctn.
D laws of two nations can hav so much in common, but dt doesnt make them d same. One is unto life d other is unto death.

11 Corith 3:6, ... not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

D Law of Moses gave no room for repetitive error, its judgment is sharp and ontime. If dt was wat Abram lived by, he wouldnt hav been d father of Faith after doubting God and fearful many times.

U may need to ask ursef, by which Law did Abraham lived? Wat about Adam, Cain, Abel, Noah etc. of wat Law were they living. Is it d Law of sin and death.

Whn u see d word God's commandments, statutes, laws dont come to fast conclusion dt its d same as given to Moses.

Sister, thr is a Law of God in effect now and its not dt of sin and death (Law of Moses). Bro Paul called it d Law of d Spirit of Life.

If u can ask ursef ds questions as given in 11 Corith 3, it will bcome clearer of wat Law of God we live by.

Is d Law we lived by still minister death?
Is d Law we lived by still minister condemnation?

If ur answer to ds is NO, then thr is a diff Law in effect, if Yes, then.....

Joagbaje:

The scripture the early church had was the Old Testament .

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The only issue is that a man is no longer justified by works . The new was based on the old . But in the Old Testament time they sought justification by them but for us we are doing the word . Adultery is still adultery , murder is still murder.

Bro, the fact dt a man sin is not a justification dt he doesnt reciev instructions from d Spirit. Whn instructions ar given, its left to d hearer to obey or disobey. Even d Law of Moses in all its awareness was still disobeyed by many. Does dt means they were not given such instructions?

Until we find d clear line of separation btw d Law of d Spirit and d Law of Sin and Death, we will always wallow in error.

Lik i told u earlier, adultery is adultery not because d Law says so, but d Spirit instructs such. Becos u hav so much similarity in a rule doesnt make it d same.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. .

If u r dead to d Law of sin and death, why live by it again.

On Justification

A man who live justified does such by Faith. Faith (by d Law of d Spirit) and Law of Moses cannot co exist. Its either u r justified and live, exist by faith or by d Law. The death of Christ didnt just obtain justification for us,it made d Law of Moses of no effect again and forever for those who trust in Him.

Wat do u say to ds.
If d Law of Moses is still in effect for a believer, then d consequences much also b in effect. A man who is bound by d Law is also bound by its consequence. Then wat will u say on d judgment of him (believer) dt transgresses d Law. Does d same judge still in effect as given in d Law? Does d Law of d Spirit says kill anyone who kills, kill an adulterer, stone d witch as d Law of Moses said. So how do u kno dt u shouldnt kill an adulterer? IS it by d Law of sin and death or by d Law of d Spirit?

How will a man who is justified by d spirit of life now depends on sin and death. Many hav claimed dt d only defect in d Law is to giv justification, hence wat Jesus gave but in reality thr life style, ministry, teaching and discussions show thr absolute reliance on d Law to receive God's approval, blessings, justification. If not, how will a minister who says he reciev justification by d blood comes to believe dt.

1. U receive God's blessings and material provisions when u pay tithe/offering?
2. Prayers ar answered, given priority by God based on ur level of obedient to giving money etc?
3. Obtaining righteousness and holiness are about ur way of life. etc?

Arent all ds a reward systems only found in d Law. D truth is a man's beliefs will always b reflected in his words and actions no matter how much he claims to b justified by d grace, or live by faith.

Jesus said u cannot serve two master.
Its either u serve d Law unto sin and death or u serve d Spirit unto life.

Bro, Hav u heard about saved sinners in d region whr d preaching of d gospel is capital offence? A family got saved, filled wit d holyghost b4 d preacher got killed and his only bible burnt. Of wat instructions do u think such family will live by? (of d Spirit or of d Letter). If they were carnivorous cavemen, of wat instructions will they live by whn they find thr next prey (human)? Bro, d Law of d Spirit written in our heart is light years far from bein d Law Moses gav to d Israelite.

I m saved by faith in d blood, justified by faith, live by faith and on d last day will appear only by faith in d blood.

Joagbaje: ^^
How does a believer know right and wrong without knowledge of right and wrong.
Is incest a sin? If yes says who?

Like i pointed out above, he knows dt whic is perfect by d Spirit not by d Law. Mind u, d knowledge of right and wrong is not found only in d Law (Moses), mayb dts whr d mix up is. D Spirit acknowledges, approves, corrects, instructs and teaches not by d Law of Sin and Death but of Life.

Compliment of d season to all.

Great discussion going on here.

Many theologians or teachers of d Word could come out wit certain rules in classifying d Law into groups for easy illustrations. Dt's not an issue provided it doesnt alter interpretations of such scriptures.

D main concern here is d fact dt whn ever d epistles mention d LAW it carries a singular meaning:-ALL D LAW AS GIVEN BY MOSES (either we call it moral, sacrificial, ethical .....).

Its important to then kno whr d believr stand whn it comes to d issue of d Law. Romans 8:2 summarizes it all.

FOR D LAW OF D SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS HAS MADE ME FREE FROM D LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

A believer wont kill not becos d Law (Moses) say so but because d Spirit teaches so.

Joagbaje: First fruit is a faith thing, it is based on individual personal conviction and relationship with God. No one need to force another . It based on a mans covenant relationship with God and individual faith. What is first fruit to A may not be To B. For example what will be the first fruit to a taxi driver? It can be the first passenger of January ist, or the entire income of the first day of the new year,or the income for the first week , yet another may decide to give the income of the entire January as first fruit. It is left for an individual. Connviction. There is no rule. No pastor is forcing people to give their salary, churches have a first fruit service and as people are led they give what is laid in their hearts as firstruit, either it's the first salary of a new job, or the first 100 naira of the first passenger . Every man according to his conviction gives what he seems right as firtst fruit and the pastor gives his own too.

But if you're not a Christian as you claim , why bother about such things, you should rather let's discuss the issue of salavation. Why are you not given your heart to christ. What are you waiting for?.

Bro, happy new year.

Pls remove dt "Faith thing" in ur first fruit as u do in tithe issues too. How do u do dt in faith. And mind u pastors dont hav to force members, they already hav influence over most of them who will act only on wat thr MOG says. We will all giv account for d flock dt we oversee.

God Bless.

uchkochi: GOD WANTS YOU RICH AS MUCH AS HE WANTS YOU SAVED.

Do you know God wants you rich? He wants you to prosper, He wants you to become very great and the envy of everyone. He wants you to eat the good of the Land. He wants you to lend not just to people but to nations. He wants you to drive the best cars, eat the best food, wear the best clothes and live in the finest houses, He wants you to be a blessing to your family, community, nation and His work on Earth. Deuteronomy 28:1-14, 3 John 2, Jeremiah 29:11.

If God wants you rich, no devil can stop your riches.


The high way to exceeding riches and wealth is not hard work as many have been made to believe, it is not long prayers as many have believed, it is not also 'hard fastings'. But it is the blessings of the LORD that makes rich without sorrows. Proverbs 10:22.

The high way to wealth is giving and 'hard givings'. By hard giving I mean sacrificial giving. Many want to prosper but they don't want to give. Even the easiest giving which is the tithe, they don't want to pay. Listen to this, tithing is the first gate to riches. Tithing alone can attract the money you need to come out of debt and live a debt free life.

Make up your mind to tithe every money that enters your hand, from the smallest to the greatest. The prayer of the tither is answered quicker than that of the none-tither.

Tithing puts your name in God's priority list. Your name is added there today in Jesus Precious name. You will get to where God wants you to get to in your finances in Jesus name.

BB PIN IS 2739F228

Chairman, why all ds nah? Including ur BB Pin alsoooo.

okeyxyz: Again, I don't tithe because it is no where to be found in my doctrines, but I do recognize it forms a great part of the doctrines of quite a number of people, so it is for them to be held accountable to what they belief. And believe you me, I have seen tithers whose lives has been transformed by tithing.

Bros, good evening.

I struggling to get ur stand.
Is it dt u dont tithe but believ in tithe as a doctrine for d church or u dont tithe and dont believ in it as a doctrine for d church.

And also, i hardly talk on issu of tithe because its too rampant here but i find it hard to be quiet whn u bring in FAITH to TITHE. It has no root in d scriptures. Giving (either tithing/offering) to believer must b seen as honoring God not a trade to receive.

MEILYN: See bro, this is not the type of Revelation you get in Church, not the type of revelation on who will die and who will live. This here is the bible, i dont post anything without using the bible to explain what am posting.

Now what am saying is this.

I will change my mind on this issue, if only you tell me, what i wrote is a lie, and you also prove it with the bible the way i did.

Tanks.

Give more time to study and prayer bro as a good workman. D understanding and conviction may tarry but will surely come.

Goshen360: @ Gombs,

Sometimes, it appears some Christians study the word BUT they don't understand tenses. This is not an insult to them but that's what it seems like. How can someone be reading "A is LIKE B" and be telling us it is the same meaning as "A IS B"? This is the problem we have with folks today and we wonder why so much argument as if we, Christians are bunch of confused people. The same problem I have with the OP, if he likes, let him call Melchizedek anything but saying Melchizedek is Christ, Oh Lord, help us!

And, YOU, Gombs, leave that tithe matter this Christman season, the one una don collect don do.

Bro, true talk.

In d case of d Op here, a little patience and disciplined study of bible tenses could hav suffice. But whn we ar quick to talkin about i reciev revelation ds it wat it result to "confusion".