₦airaland Forum

shdemidemi: What do you think about how Jesus was mobbed, beaten and killed... Was God part of it?


Please help us with what the gospel is as well.


My next question might sound patronising, I beg you to please bear with me on this.

Do you really hear God speak... When you hear him, do you hear a man's voice, baby's, woman's....what voice do you actually hear?

Do u kno wat staged movies does? D actor and d boss ar preplan and all actions are carried out by d actors/actress lik robots without personal influencing.
Dts exactly wat u r taking d events of d scriptures to be. If God staged d beating and death of Christ, then he also staged his temptation by d devil, also staged all d sickness/infirmities of ppl dt Christ healed. Then all our life is just a stage in d hands of a God who choose to do wat ever he will with considering who we are. Then why d death of christ sinc he already planned who goes to hell, why d preachin of d gospel sinc He already planned some not to recieve d gospel. Then we should all eat and die since we are robots controlled by Almighty
hands who doesnt consider our choice but wat ever He wants.

But thanks be to God, in His sovereignty, He gav us will to chose (good or evil), choices to decide whr we stand. Ur message here will narrow down d who events of d scripture and life to a staged movies from d disobedient of Satan, d Fall of Adam, d birth, death and ressurection of Christ, d conversion of Paul and d preaching of d gospel.

It is whn we couldnt experience d supernatural in our daily walk dts whn we turn to take God to do as He Wills. I still wonder whr u placed most of Christ words about God. I never see Christ for once talking about God's Will in ds light u talk. He asked, he recieved, d early church asked, they recieved, but u said d church after dt cant becos its done away wit. Bro, i m part of dt 1st church u saw/read in d scripture, part of d same body and Spirit. Walk in d same privilege and authority. Preach d same gospel. I draw my pattern of lik from d Body, the church which Christ is d Head. D Head shared all abilities wit every part of d body.

Also u wouldnt tell me, whether God does evil. Since u said he does all tins as he Wills.

Finally, u asked (Do you really hear God speak... When you hear him, do you hear a man...), I ask u also. How do u receive revelation/understanding whn u study God's Word, how do ur spirit bear witness with wat u reciev. Dts how i recieve from Him, nothing spectacular but all supernatural.

DrummaBoy: i do not have the time and luxury of showing that everthing you listed above in response to demi's question to U to define the gospel is New Age. It is the fruts of the Word of Faith ministry that results from manipulatin of the gospel's account of Jesus ministry. It is the dimensin of occultism I waned yiu about. The gospel is God's solutn to sin. Perid. Matthew 1:21. God confirming the gospel with signs is the working of His soveroegnity and cannot be worked up with faith or otherwise. I invite U to study my 5 paper series on d gospel. Part 5 treats Word of Faith. Hope U can learn something from it.

Bros, evn d acceptance of d gospel requires d faith of a man thru his will not d sovereignty. Think i will appreciate if u can explain wat u mean by sovereignty of God.

DrummaBoy: this is where the robber meets the road. What is the good news? Is it possible that in pursuit of a powerful gospel we no longer preach the goodnews and we do is to revel in power until the occult have taken over and we can no longer distingush btw the gospel and showmanship?

Bros, we dont hav powerful gospel nor does d gospel has power. D gospel itself is d Power. It doesnt possess ability, its d ability of God to d saving of d lost. In it also lies d demonstration of d Spirit Power. (1 Corith 2:4).

shdemidemi: Can't type much at the moment as I am using my phone but I will ask a few questions -

Please answer the question so we can audibly communicate.

You are yet to tell me what the good news is, I understand it is powerful. Please tell me what the 'powerful' gospel is.

Morning Bro, I was away from NL all thru yesternit.
Though it seems thr is kind of deviation from our line of discussion due to d responses available now but i believ my stand is very clear on d above bolded. The gospel of Christ is to save (Rom 1:16-17)

But in d line of our discussion as shown by wat u posted earlier whr i told u dts not d gospel given to us. U wrote:

shdemidemi: Saying I don't believe in miracles isn't right... I believe God can do all things and beyond at His set time and not at the call of any man.

When people are sick around me, i pray for them. Does that mean they will get better? Of course not. I have only prayed according to my wish for that person. Do I know what the mind of God is concerning that person's sickness? What if God wants to take glory out of that person's illness?

The best child of God may be the greatest sufferer and his suffering may appear to be crushing, killing and overwhelming but only God knows bro.

And to summaries my response, i told u dts not d gospel given to us. IN saying gospel here i mean dts not an encompassing state of a believer (the life we received by d gospel).

1. Our life (believers) after recievin d gospel are not based on wishes for our request in prayers but on faith in God to receive as seen in d scriptures.

2. The gospel we recieved has d power to save, heal and deliver. Thats not if God's Will, as u pointed out, God is always willing to save, heal and deliver thru us as seen in Christ.

3. The gospel (salvation) of Christ we reciev (our faith in God) shows us clearly dt God has never and will never take glory in destruction as u pointed out earlier dt he does all things as He Will. He doesnt take glory in sickness but can thru man's sickness work out his glory, he doesnt take glory in destruction either. But in all dt happen to us, He can work out good for us. Dt doesnt make Him d originator of d problem.

I tell u again dt Jesus is d full expression and demonstration of d act of God, and he told us dt their is not evil in God, dt whn u see evil kno dt its d devil (steal, kill, destroy). I chose to believ Christ word above all. James told us dt He (God) only hav good/perfect things as we saw in creation.

4. Can Christian suffer? Yes of course. In ministry, in jobs, even in life. Does dt mean its God making them suffer? NO bro, Can u behold d manner of love He has for us? Whn u see Christians suffer, never think God made him suffer so as to use it for His glory. Lik i told u earlier, thr are many reasons the just suffers (some shown in Job suffering, note he was d source not God), some due to hardness and many more, but can never b by God.

5. Contrary to wat u wrote, God can never put d head of His child under a trailer to get glory, he cant make a robber to shoot a christian to prove a point. Bro, God has greater, beautiful and righteous way of showing His glory than to use evil.

Note Evil is Evil no matter d name u give to it, Killing, destruction etc are all evil, then if God uses any, we cant defend our faith to b free of evil. But bro, many have erred, believing God killing or destroying (dts d devil trademark). Lik i told u, hardness of man and d devil has been d source of all evil in ds world, God is only in business of making sure He can work around those disobedience, rebelion, evil to work perfect things out for us.

I ve had thru d Spirit and d Word d conviction dt thr is no evil in God. I ve been on a great study to see/know d causes of all evil (killing, lying, destruction) mentioned in d scriptures knowing dt God doesnt do evil. We dont need to discuss ds now as i told u, i m still on dt study. But its possible that God has never kill anyone b4 from d creation of man till date as we saw in Christ, and in His Law. If we take d scripture as it is then our study will b redirected to decode d real causes of all evil recorded in d scriptures. Whether its d hardness of man, d work of d devil or d consequence of d Fall.

shdemidemi: What is the gospel given to us then?

I hope you know gospel means news. So, What is the news Christians should be sharing/heralding?

As i cleared up thr. D gospel of Christ given to us is not a powerless one. D gospel is contained in demonstrating d Power of God.
I once involved in an outreach in a village whr a man (babalawo) has become a stronghold in such community, we went ahead to preach without bothering about him becos we kno wat we ar made of. One of us chose to preach to his family members and immediate d man noticed he charged to d shrine to bring watever, one of us tried to stop him by holding him yet he pulled him away. At his entrance to open d shrine door, he started shouting i cant see again, my eyes are gone, hold d boy dt touched me now, dont let them go. Bro dts d Power of god at work in d Gospel we carry. We laid hands on him and he regained his sight immediately. D whole community were out already and they all gav thr life to Christ becos of wat they see. Bro, dts wat i mean, whn i told u dt we preach d gospel of power in word and in Spirit. U mit say dts wat God's will, but i can boldly tell u, dt we asked and recieved.

shdemidemi: So, was it the will of Joseph to go to Egypt?

Was it of David to become king?

Was it the will of Saul to become Paul?

Was it the will of Mary to be the mother of Jesus?

Was it the will of the nation of Israel to become slaves in a strange land?

Was it the will of pharaoh to keep the Israelites until the tenth plague?

And many more
My friend, it is God's desire does not mean it is His will. His will is to pick, elect, choose any one as He had purposed.

I told u dt God never do anytin without d will of such man (choice). Except u take humans for robots. All u see in d scripture ar demostration of man's will to obey or disobeyed God.

Joseph? Hardness of his brothers heart to do evil. If they hav chosen good, he wont smell Egypt and d dream will still come to pass. Or u mean God made then do d evil to punish and sell him?

David? God told Samuel dt "He sees d heart not d stature". Bro, dts will, David chose to obey God and God saw a right heart. Will God hav chosen David if he is of evil?

Saul? Saul was absolutely upright concerning Law, all he did was in ignorance. Dont 4get, God sees d heart (choice, will, obedient) of man. An upright man fighting against d truth in search of d truth will surely find it. Paul was saved just as u r (Supernaturally), salvation doesnt hav to be spectacular.

Mary? If i may asked u, if mary has been involved in immorality will she b chosen based on past prophesies? No. Her choice was clear (She kept her self, she believed d word of d Lord thru d angel too). Nothing special about d Mary, wat was special is d prophesy dt a virgin will concieve by d Hplyghost at due time, whn d time came, Mary was found ready, available to be useful. If thr is no many, God will still find one who is ready.

Isrealites, Pharoah? Its all about d hardness of thr heart, thr choice, thr believ and purpose. God give His word, His Word require an action (Faith), dts d determinant of all who ar justified and unjustified in d scriptures.

Ur description made it to b dt God already plan d fall of man, he planned d disobedient of Adam to show off? Also planned dt cain will b rebelious.

I hav given u enough to study mayb u will see Him in d tru light of who he His.[/quote]How did you even become a Christian! Isn't it through thesame kind of trust that Abraham had. What happened to "all things work together for good to those who love God'? If you think all things means all good things, you would be wrong. It means the good, the bad and the ugly will work out for good. The bible says everything is beautiful at its time- death is beautiful at its time and all those other things you wrote up there are all beautiful at their time, as far as God is concerned.

You obviously talk as a man with emotions but God is saying "I give and I take".[/quote]Bro, is crushing a 5 yr old girl under a trailer beautiful, yrs bad many ppl were lined down by robbers under a luxurious bus to crush them, wat a great glory god will hav in some ppl going to hell then. Is dt wat u call beautiful? Wat is d definition of beauty, good and perfect God? Does it include sorrows for d righteous?
U misuse scriptures most times by claiming God hav pleasure in evil. Wat good do u see God working to in d global disaster recorded in various places? These are d challenges of atheist and other unbelievers. They always ask,. why ll a good God choose to kill an innocent man to prove He is good. So u ll tell them dt God has purpose for evrytin? Ooooo.
GOD DOESNT HAV PURPOSE FOR EVERYTIN. He has a Will and want us to do His Will, Man can choose anytime not to do it. OUR CHOICES ARE NEVER CONTROLLED BY GOD. When u hear by faith Abra...., Rahab... etc. Dts man'w will (choice) at work to obey God.

Bro, i tell u again, do not err. Things doesnt just happen, we make things happen. All God has ever done and still doing in His Love is to save man from his evil choices and bring them into obedience to d Word.

Any picture we have of God needs to be informed by Jesus Christ. Jesus is the “radiance of God’s glory, the exact representation of his being” To get a good understanding of God’s character, we need to look to Jesus. He said d devil is d robber, d killer and d destroyer but u said God is d one responsible.

GOD DOESNT NEED EVIL TO WORK OUT GOOD, HE IS ONLY IN BUSINESS OF HELPING MAN DISOBEDIENT AND D EVIL OF D DEVIL TO WORK OUT GOOD FOR US.
Bro, i commend u to God and to d Word of His Grace.

shdemidemi: Saying I don't believe in miracles isn't right... I believe God can do all things and beyond at His set time and not at the call of any man.

When people are sick around me, i pray for them. Does that mean they will get better? Of course not. I have only prayed according to my wish for that person. Do I know what the mind of God is concerning that person's sickness? What if God wants to take glory out of that person's illness?

The best child of God may be the greatest sufferer and his suffering may appear to be crushing, killing and overwhelming but only God knows bro.

Ds is definately not d gospel given to us. God can only do whn d Will of d man is in it. God will never do anytin for a man if d will of such man dont want. God will never heal a man who dont believ in healing. U hav a will to recieve, to believ and to reject.

We hav seen man's will over and over again hindering God's Will.

Adam did, the Isrealite did.
Eze 18:23; Tit2 :11; 1 Tim 2:3-4, God desires dt all men be saved, dt s wat God will but that wont come to past becos man has a will to choose too and deviate from God's Will.

Its an excuse of a believr who has given up to fate dt wat ever happened, its because God wills. Bro, did God will dt d church b scattered?, did God will dt d gospel be hindered?, did God will dt men should die in plane crash without evn traces of thr existence? did God will dt a trailer crush a 10 yr old girl under its tire to death? did God will dt men should rise against each other in war and destructions?

Do not err bro, every good gift and perfect gift is from God (James 1:18)
Do u kno wat perfect gift means? U need to look at wat God created in Eden to kno dt. Dts His will. Jesus put it in another way. he says " d devil kill, steal, and destroy but he ( wat he sees in d father) came to giv life and be abundant. Dts d Will of God.
I hav seen many on NL talk about God killing, doing evil etc evn from believers. Bro, i disagree on all because thr cant b eveil in God.

Why do u pray and just wish after? Is dt wat was taught in d scriptures? Many reasons ppl dont hav answers to thr prayers, just wishing is one of it. U dont wish bro, u believe dt u recieve, u believe wat d Lord said (Ask and it shall be given, dt ur joy may b full).

Finally on ds. If God takes glory in sickness, does He take glory also in death of d young, d crushing by trailers? God doesnt take glory in ppl's sickness, He doesnt hav glory in evil and imperfect things but good and perfect. Anyday u see any imperfection, bro never let ur mind go to God as d reason.

shdemidemi: How can the power of God seize!

All I am saying is that man does not have that power any more. The apostles had it for a while but you and I don't have the power to tell a dead man to rise today. Only God can when He wants to, if He wants to.

If you call a doctor he will carry out his discipline any time needed. if you call an engineer he will attend to you as long as it concerns his job. If you say you have power to do miracles, you should be able to do it whenever the need arise, Jesus would.

Ds is whr d problem is and whr u need to do more findings in d scriptures.
D name Jesus obtained (Phil 2:8-10) is d name of d church. D name given to u and me. Every believer can function in d power of dt name.
Stephen wasnt an Apostle, amny in d early church perform signs and wonders, many in present day church ar doing same too. I ve recieve of Christ fulness, of d gift of d Spirit. I function in demnostrating d power of God as u should also. God will only do, when u ar ready bro.

Bro, doctor fails too and learn, engineers fails and learn, same with a man functioning in s Spirit, he s learning, growing to master how to b effective. Many neglect d fact dt a man can only function to d limit his mind can hold, things of d Spirit get better by use. Peter, John, all d disciples messed up one time or d other. Jesus scolded them many times on how they limit d authority they had. Dts learning, practicing, makin use of. Peter had to pull d man at d beautiful gate to reciev miracles, but well later Peter dont even need to pray for such, bible recorded his shadow healed. Dts progression, deeper revelation and ability to function in d Spirit. U think because we all hav d Spirit then u can all just start fucntion perfectly in it?
D same way ur understanding of God's Word is in progressive revelation, ur ability to fucntion in d Spirit power is also in progression. Years back i hav prayed for d sick and they get sicker, some just get little well, but i never give up, i believ d word of Christ (u shall lay hands on d sick..). I kept at it, knowing how to yield more. Today i hav lost count on d numbers i hav got healed at diff places. Does dt means i cant still miss sometimes? No, i keep pressing towards d mark of mastery without giving up to unbelieve.

U asked, "If you say you have power to do miracles, you should be able to do it whenever the need arise, Jesus would." I tell u Jesus would, but Peter couldnt but in progressiv revelation, John too, d early church too, so i too as member of d church, grows daily to kno more and more and to function in d grace of God thru d power of Christ in me.

shdemidemi: I see prayer as a communication with God and not just a request time. I believe you can pray from now till tomorrow, if it's not according to the will and predestined plan of God it won't be answered. All God needs from me is to see Him as the TRUSTEE and myself as the TRUSTOR.

Example, if I trust my wife I don't have to be checking her movement or asking her silly questions or checking through her phone to know if she is being faithful. In similar manner, my life is in the hands of God, why am I worrying or asking for miracle. When I do that I am more or less saying may be God can't see or He has forgotten.

Bro, then we dont need to ask anytin again since we hav been pre-programmed. So why preach to ppl since God already preplan them for hell.
Ds ar d wat brings confusion to most believers and mak d unbeliever stand again d gospel.
PRAYER as communication includes asking and recieving. Hav u 4gotten ds words

Matt 7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
Matt 21:22 And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
John 15:7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[b] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you[/b].
John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him
1 John 3:22 And [/b]whatever we ask we receive from Him[/b], because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

All d scripture above points to us praying and recieving our desires (will) not God's Will. D ultimate God's Will is wat u see in 1 John 3:23 (And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.)

See, many things surround d not bein able to reciev by a person, one of it is wat u said, "wishing" not believing to reciev. Ds scripture show some.

James 1:6-8 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

James 4:3 ye ask, and not reciev because ye ask amiss.
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

can u remember James 5:16-18
The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much(dynamic in its working). 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.

he even compare our recieving to Elijah owns, to let u kno dt u ought to recieve.
See, bro. U can and should reciev from God as Elijah, Paul, Peter did. Dont deprive urself of ds. Find time to go thru ds scripture and amke up ur mind on it.

shdemidemi: The power that raised Christ is at work to save anyone who comes to the knowledge of the truth. The power is in the gospel (no where else) for it is the POWER unto salvation.

I will be sincere with you, I have never seen a dead man raised from dead neither have I seen a lame man get up suddenly with my eyes before.

Have you seen any man raise the dead or anything of that nature, life?. I am not saying heard o, I am saying may be a family member of yours that was blind or that died that got healed.

The greatest mistake we can make as men is to think we have powers through prayers to do anything. Even if you pray and what you prayed for happened somehow. Know it that it did not happen because you prayed, it happened because God permitted it. Even if you didn't pray it would have happened if it is in line with God's plan.

How many things have we really prayed for that we get? In fact what we get most times are the things we don't pray for. God just does His thing, no man has the formula or the power to fill that space that only God occupy.

I believed i treated ds wit my yesterday post and ds one . I ve seen, be part of many of God's miracles.
Prayer is our only resort Bro, nothing happened by chance since d creation of d World, nothing. Its either its by man's disobedient or by man's prayers. God has given us d authority, privilege to enjoy all of His love and Faithfulness, to enjoy d ability of d Spirit and to reciev our desires.

Do consider studying on ds as said earlier but not wit a set mind but a mind dt wants to know, God will definately talk to u about it all.

Grace to u bro as u reciev massively from our FatherGod.

shdemidemi: Prophéteia was used in 1 cor 13:8.

It signifies the speaking forth of the mind and counsel of God. In 1 cor 13:8 it is used of the gift or of that which is 'prophesied'

Bro Morning,
as shown earlier, propheteia as a word includes speaking on d future as foretelling. Wat u wrote above could definately come as foretelling (e.g. God giving direction thru d Spirit to somone or set of ppl on specific issues). Dt can come as W of W or other utterance gifts.
Propheteia encompass all of revelation thru the Word and the Spirit.

Hi shdemidemi,
i wont b much available 2nite to reply d above in details due to other assignments. I will respond in detail 2moro. But in few words. I hav seen and enjoyed d privilege of bein part of God's vessels used in demonstrating d power of God as seen in d early church.
Bro, i hav seen many mad men received sanity, many deaf hear opened, blind reciev sights. I m not telling u theories, ds ar realities of outreaches i ve been privilege to b part of.
My speech doesnt rest on human wisdom but in demonstration of Spirit power.

Secondly, not tru dt God does anytin he wants when he wants. We ve seen tru out d scripture dt man's will can stop God and as much recieve desires from God.

Till i come again, Stay Blessed.

shdemidemi: Vine's Expository Dictionary of BiBlical Words

Though much of OT prophecy was purely descriptive, prophecy is not necessarily, nor even primarily fore-telling.

With the completion of the canon of scripture prophecy apparently passed away. In his measure the teacher has taken the place of the prophet.

The significant change in 2 Peter 2:1. The difference is that, whereas the message of the prophet was a direct revelation of the mind of a god for the occasion, the message of the teacher is gathered from the completed revelation contained in the scriptures.

I gave u a exact word used and d meaning u still come up wit diff meaning.

Prophéteia. Propheteous. ds are d exact word used and i gav u d direct greek meaning. Why try to read another meaning to it. Wat u gav is interpretation from another source not d word used.

Lets talk on d original word used and wat it means in d original language.

shdemidemi: The gifts we have in part are clearly written
1 cor 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part

And those are the two the scripture says we vanish when the perfect comes

10 But when that which is perfect is come, [b]then that which is in part [/b]shall be done away.

Pls, can u tell me wat dt which is perfect mean and when it came.

And dont 4get i gav u STRONG-NT meaning of d word prophesy to include for-telling

shdemidemi: You have refused to answer the question bro. The question is, what are the gifts we have in part?

I never said anyone has complete knowledge, I said we have it in part until that day when we wldn't need it anymore.

If u read d part u cut away from ur quote, u ll kno d gift we hav in part and why.

shdemidemi: Are you sure you can do miracles?

If you can, I am sure like me you won't be too happy with those people with issues in hospitals. Pls go there and heal all if you sincerely have the power to do so at your own time.

The bedrock and fundamental of the gospel that saves Gentiles and by extension the world today happened after the death and resurrection of Christ.

What they had to believe at the time when Jesus said these things was 'Jesus is the son of God'.

The relationship between God and Israel had always been backed by signs. God won't send any prophet without the power to perform wonders. That was the only way these nation of Israel believe you are from God. But our relationship as the church with God is different, our relationship is built on trust in the Word.


1 Corinthians 1:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

Now i fully understand u. U dont believ in miracles? Jesus!!!!!!!
Wat then do u believ in? Do u actually kno dt d converting of d soul is a miracle on its own? Do u always keep passive whn u hav d sick around u. U ar afraid of not failing, rit? U just summed up above wat i can call atotal heteros gospel.

Dt d power of God thru signs and wonders has ceased, wat a miss!!
Did Jesus healed all in his days? Did d early church healed all in thr days?

Ur message has no root and place in d scriptures. U r only scrapping thru 1 Corith 13 with poor interpretation about "in part". U dont even believ d word of Jesus, U dont believe in d gift of God, u dont believ in d Power of d Spirit to work miracles. U dont believ dt as d early church were, we are. Wat do u actually believe in? I cant imagine how much u r really missing in d church of God.

Do u actually believe in prayers? dt God answers prayers. Ohh! all along u hav believed dt all u r is by ur power or do u believe in taking guidance by d Spirit.

U err my bro. If u hav not seen miracles b4, if u hav not had W of W, W of K, prophecies b4, i ve seen and still see till today. I believe dt wat Christ death brought for d early church is 4 us all. I believe dt d power dt raised Christ from d dead is still at work today in d church.

U dont experience wat u dont believe in, mayb u can check dt.

shdemidemi: Let's take this one at a time

1 cor 13:10
But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless.

English Standard Version
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

New American Standard Bible
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

King James Bible
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But when the perfect comes, the partial will come to an end.

International Standard Version
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.

NET Bible
but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But when perfection shall come, then that which is partial shall be nothing.


Please tell us the gifts we have in part (the partial, temporary)as stated in verse 9.

If u read d scripture in context, u ll kno he s not talking about now. U r only looking for a scripture to suit dt interpretation.

1 Corith 13:8-13

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Always notice d tense and subject of every verse. Paul uses "we", that includes him, Apostles, all believers. Notice also dt he said "we behold as in glass". definitely, even Paul kno dt he doesnt hav d complete knowlegde about God and dts wat u claim to hav now since u said others are done away with.

1 Corith 13:8 Paul summed up his description of God's kind of love by saying that it never fails. He was saying that it will never cease. We will still be walking in God's kind of love throughout eternity. That's why it is so important that we operate all the gifts of the Spirit through God's kind of love. Prophecies will fail and tongues will cease, but love will abide forever.

Prophecies will fail and tongues will cease>>> A time will come when there will not be prophecies anymore. In eternity, when we know all things even as we are known, we won't need the gift of prophecy and speak in tongues anymore. He was contrasting the temporariness of prophecy with the permanentness of love.

In vs 12, he said Then shall I know even as also I am known". Dts full knowledge, but it will be God's perfect, complete knowledge, not the corruptible carnal knowledge that we now possess. Do we claim we hav d perfect knowlegde now? No, we only behold as in glass, but in eternity we will hav complete knowlegde as he knows us.

About knowing in part.
The gift of prophecy, tongue, W of W, W of K do not give the individual operating in that gift access to the complete knowledge of God. A person only know it in part. Its an expression from d Spirit about certain issues not d full knowledge of it. They come for directions, instructions, guidance etc.

shdemidemi: Jesus said theses SIGNS-

Bro, please define what signs are?

In my words signs are symbols and directions that lead us to a destination.

No wonder the bible say 'Jews believe in signs'...

The destination in this case is the 'good news' of Christ. The signs were helpful cos they led us to the truth of the gospel. We have arrived at the destination, of what use are signs?


Everything Jesus promised happened literally, we saw these signs in the lives of the apostles, But today the gifts have seized. Only God can do what He wants to do when He wants to do it.

Broooooooos, Ahhhhhhh!

Are ds signs for b4 or after we recieve d gospel?
He said ds sign will follow those dt believ (all dt believ) and u said its d Apostles. Whr ar u seeing all ds, ar we using diff bible?

How can d destination b d goodnews whn he said d signs start in a man whn he believes.

Bro, Christ didnt mention d Apostles, he mentioned believers. Ar u one? If u r then its for u.

Act 6:8 And Stephen full of faith and power, did great wonders & miracles among d people. If Stephen can , I can.

The second bolded is not absolutely not tru.

U r just making claims outside d scripture, putting words into it. Why not take it d way its written and let d Spirit interprete.

shdemidemi: I did explain 8 as well bro. We have four gifts in verse 8:charity, prophecy(not fore-telling but teaching of the word), tongues and knowledge

One never fails, it stays permanent. (CHARITY/LOVE)

We have prophecy in part as explained in verse 9 (teaching)

We also have knowledge in part as seen in verse 9 (KNOWLEDGE)

Tongues will seize, we do not have that in part like we do with teaching(prophecy) and knowledge (stopped in verse 8 )

The three gifts we have in part and the gift that never cease are the gifts we have in church today.

What are the best gifts we should covet?

LOVE, KNOWLEDGE, TEACHING(prophesy)

Bro, u r lifting scriptures to suit ur interpretation.

vs 8 All the special gifts and powers from God will someday come to an end, but love goes on forever. Someday prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge—these gifts will disappear.

Vs 8 clearly mentioned all gift dt will cease. Why considering vs 9 alone without putting vs 8 in context.
Do u actually believ in wat Jesus said in Mark 16:15-18

King James Version (KJV)

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I believ u kno dt d go ye includes all believers not just d 12 Apostles, also he mentioned preac to every creature. Dt includes u, me and all the world.
Vs 17 mentioned d signs dt will follow d creature (u, me , others) dt believ. He never mentioned it to stop at a time, he said everyone who believe yesterday, today and tommorrow. Ds ar d signs dt accompany every believer. If its going to cease Jesus wont say every believer or he didnt fore see our days?

We ll do well to let d scripture speak by itself.

shdemidemi: What’s the purpose for these gifts?
Ephesians 4:12a

"For the perfecting (or maturing) of the saints..."

The gift of God is not for self but for the edification of all. Any gift you think you have that is for self glorification is totally contrary to what Paul stood for and represented in the epistles.

We are not talking about self glorification here, we are talking about d existence of d Spirit gifts. We enjoy d Spirit power for God's glory.

Paul wrote 1 Corith 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

All ds apply to us today, ds is d present state of d church today, d revelation of Christ by d Spirit and the Word.

shdemidemi: I don't want to go into these issue of tongues here. My question to u is, do you understand prophecy as used in the epistles is not the same as fore telling future events and it also gives no credence to the 'God said to me' mantra.

PROPHECY (prophéteia), PROPHESY (propheteuo) as used in 1 Corith 12, I Corith 13, I Corith 14.
STRONGS NT 4394: προφητεία
[i]...discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; especially by foretelling future events.[i]

D original confirmed u r wrong. Prophecy as used in d NT greatly support wat u said but much more beyond dt, it includes fore-telling.

shdemidemi: Some gifts of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit was given to men at the start of the dispensation of the Holy Spirit. Jesus had sai
d that all these things wld happen and all these gifts wld be made available unto men. The scriptures says

The last days did not start now, it started just after Christ ascended to heaven. All these wonderful things happened from the day of Pentecost, they were not made to last forever. They had a time to fade away and they did vanish even at the time of the Apostles.

Another insertion by u. Bro, let d scripture says it all, why reading meaning to it.
The last days started after Christ ascension, whr did u see it dt d last day has ended. Ar we in another dispensation? Does d same Spirit still at work in us today?

See Jesus said "ds signs will follow (mentioned no end)
Paul wrote, " D manifestation of d Spirit given to everyone to profit withal" (mentioned no end)
Paul again, " Covet to prophesy and forbid not speaking in tongues" (no ceasing)

Why are u bringing in another gospel to demean d Gospel of Power. See, a man cant experience wat he doesnt believ in. Ur assertion implies dt all d move and revivals of d Spirit after d 12 Apostles till date are faked. Ur extreme position is very dangerous to how much u can receiv from d Spirit and how much he can work thru u.

The existence of fake doesnt make d original cease.

shdemidemi: Notice that the 'prophesy' as used in verse 18 above is different from the way it is used in the the epistles. Pls remember the word `prophesy' is not being able to tell the future as we think of Daniel or Isaiah, but to simply speak the Word of God. Share the Word, that's what it is to prophesy, and that's what every believer should desire.

Not tru as i shown above. It includes all in all.
Ur teaching will hinder d move of d Spirit because u hav narrowed it down to only teaching of d scriptures. Wat about healing, prophecy, W or W, W of K, tongues, interpretation etc.

I flow and enjoy God's Spirit as Christ did and d early church did.
Jesus, d same yesterday, taday and forever. That same spirit is at work in us today, demonstrating Christ ability in us, working thru us in many dimensions.

Finally, bro. I desire dt u open up urself to d Spirit gift as mentioned by Paul (covet earnestly, seek, desire). It will bring a greater dimension to d way u see d scriptures and make d ministry lik more enjoyable.

shdemidemi: Bro verse 9 clearly shows the gifts we have in parts- the gift of teaching (propphecy) and the gift of knowledge


Verse 10 says the gifts in parts (NB: not all the gifts but the ones in part) will seize when we see Christ.

The gifts we need in church today are the gifts of teaching and knowledge/ understanding of scriptures.

U first gav me vs 8-10, now u said only vs 9. Wat happened to vs 8

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Ur interpretation is not consistence Bro. Compare to

1 Corinth 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
vs 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
vs 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way

1 Corinth 13:1 1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
vs 26 26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
vs 39 39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Does d scriptures above only apply to d early church or d church of Christ at large?
Bro, d manifestation of d Spirit is a present day reality of d church, i wonder wat a gathering it will b if regularly u dont experience such gifts individually and corporately.

frosbel: how does one know he is an apostle ? Is this something God tells him in a dream or vision ? Any why does he need to put Apostle before his name as a title ?

An Apostleship is not in d name but d work. He is a builder, a pioneer. D call of God is not in bearing titles but in labour in ministry as used by d Spirit.

Thr ar many Apostles today who doesnt even bear d name and thr are many others bearing d name without knowledge or call.

shdemidemi: 1 cor 13 v 8-10 does give us an idea that some spiritual gifts would seize.

I will appreciate if u dont lift scriptures without considering d context.

1 cor 13 v 8-10
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Ur interpretation suggested dt even knowledge will cease, but we still kno by d Spirit today. If tongue, prophecy by d Spirit has failed now as u said, then knowlegde too has. So we should b most miserable.

U dont make conclusion on things d scriptures doesnt say. Let d scripture interprete itself.

shdemidemi: I think it's quite more than a messenger. An apostle is a special messenger that saw Christ in person.

Any scripture and verse?

U r yet to reply me on d ffgs.

shdemidemi: Today we do not have apostles or prophets any longer. This is something that has now dropped off and again I think it’s because the Word is complete as we have it, and there is no longer a need for apostles.

All we need today according to God's program is the office of the evangelist and pastor teachers.

Pls can u provide scripture and verse for the bolded, or is it an opinion?

And also, cant a pastor prophesy or give W of K? Cant a teacher of d Word do d same?

shdemidemi: Reveal what through visions?
Explain what u mean by who I go to and why I have to go to them.

Please show us where the apostles gave us an inkling that we can also hear from God aside what was taught. Paul would tell Timothy to study and not God will speak to you.

Teach what you have been taught and nothing new should be added.

Even Timothy was not allowed to bring fresh revelations of his or fore-tell anything to the church, that would mean adulterating the doctrine of Christ. Same applies to the present church, we are not allowed to add anything to the written word.

U are mixing lot of things together here. I think its idea for me to kno ur stand, mayb i can then understand u.

Can i ask, do d demonstration of d Spirit thru prophecy, W of W, W of K etc still work in d church today?
Was thr no place for prophecies and instructions from d Spirit thru individual in d early church?

frosbel: ^^^

but apostle simply means messenger , we are all apostles in that case -

All those with Apostle or Bishop before their names, are most likely frauds.

Bro, someone said "show ur work and we will kno who u really are". Thats d fact of d ministry. Apostles dont sit at home, just reading scriptures and teaching others. Bro, if all are Apostles, then Timothy should b one, Priscilla should be. Paul wont tell Timothy how to appoint a bishop, he would hav said all are Bishop.

Know dt i m not justifying anyone wit such names, but also disagree with moving to d other extreme of believing dt all are frauds.

shdemidemi: Today we do not have apostles or prophets any longer. This is something that has now dropped off and again I think it’s because the Word is complete as we have it, and there is no longer a need for apostles.

All we need today according to God's program is the office of the evangelist and pastor teachers.

Pls can u provide scripture and verse for the bolded, or is it an opinion?

And also, cant a pastor prophesy or give W of K? Cant a teacher of d Word do d same?

shdemidemi: Reveal what through visions?




Explain what u mean by who I go to and why I have to go to them.


Please show us where the apostles gave us an inkling that we can also hear from God aside what was taught. Paul would tell Timothy to study and not God will speak to you.

Teach what you have been taught and nothing new should be added.

Even Timothy was not allowed to bring fresh revelations of his or fore-tell anything to the church, that would mean adulterating the doctrine of Christ. Same applies to the present church, we are not allowed to add anything to the written word.

U are mixing lot of things together here. I think its idea for me to kno ur stand, mayb i can then understand u.

Can i ask, do d demonstration of d Spirit thru prophecy, W of W, W of K etc still work in d church today?
Was thr no place for prophecies and instructions from d Spirit thru individual in d early church?

shdemidemi: When you say fresh revelations, I might want to see that as fresh understanding of the Word and not necessarily a 'fore-telling prophecy'. The job of our men of God today is to teach the word of God. Any dream, vision or the likes should not be mixed with the word of God. It is very easy to fall into the snare of being seen as a mini-god of some sort.

Fresh revelations, comforts, instructions all comes by d word and also by ppl thru d Spirit in line wit d word.
I agreed visions, prophecies shouldnt be mixed with d word but i say it should b aligned to d Word not neglected. That same Spirit dt gives refreshing from d word, gives refreshing by prophecy, by W or K etc. Do u neglect d fact dt the Spirit can reveal thru visions and prophecies? Am sure u r not.

Falling snare of mini-god is another issue which d discipline and knowledgable pastor will teach his members d danger in such. Likewise d members hav d responsibility to know d position of d Word as related to vision, prophecy and their pastors.

Take it that you tell me something about my future and it happened by chance or coincidence. The next time I have issues or I feel I need to know anything as regards my future, who do you think I will go to?

Bro, tru prophecy doesnt happen by chance. Who u go to depends on wat u r tot and how much of d Word u know. U still neglect d fact dt wat ever is been told to u, u much test by d word.

Their ar various instances in d early church whr d demostrations of d Spirit thru ppl were recorded. That same Spirit still reveals and at work in us today.

shdemidemi: More like you are making excuses for men who deceitfully claim God is speaking to them. The word of God is too full for God to need to make fresh revelations to any man in this age is quite needless.

Bro,
Dts not an excuse. There ar those who deceitfully claim dt and thr ar those who truly hav dt. All we need to do is to judge by d word and thats what i m saying here. Thr is no new revelation except d Word but thr ar fresh revelation by d Word. The Word refreshes, prophecy, W of K, W of W etc does by d Word.

i kno u believ God can speak to many thru others but ur issue is wit d way its been related. But do we neglect wat is bein said because of how it is said? No. Even some earthly parents do relate corrections to thr children sometimes in a wrong way. Dt doesnt mean wat its been said is wrong.

If God can speak to u for u, God can speak to others thru u. u r just a vessel. And dont neglect d fact dt no matter how spiritual u r, Ur level of education, understanding of d scriptures and personalty will always show in how u recieve and relate wat is recieved.

shdemidemi: Of course you should ask for clarity and judge by scriptures; but that does not debunk the fact that the man saying"God told me" is leaving no room for questions. Moreover, if the so called "God told me prophet" is speaking in line with the Word he need not claim God spoke specially to him on your behalf.

Still not tru. I said even ppl question God how much more d messenger. Wat u r sayin is s perception not generalty. Ppl use many coined words "I see, God told me, God revealed, I was shown, I heard" etc. They all hav d same source communicated differently based on individual understanding. Its not about d Man givin roon for questions, its about d believer holding to d scripture "test all things".

Also, d most important tin is wat he says then how he said it.
i will firstly judge wat he says wit d Word, how he said it largely due to his personalty and understanding.

shdemidemi: What is not true about the statement?

because a man saying " God said" doesnt mean doesnt mean u cant ask for clarity, doesnt mean u cant judge by d scripture. Even ppl question God in d scriptures to get clarity.

If someone tell u "God said", then u must hav a witness in ur spirit (most hav issues wit this) and must align wit wat d Word says about u. If not ask questionsssssssss.

BrAkingNews: https://www.osundefender.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/adeboye-rccg.jpg

Pastor Enoch Adejare Adeboye, the General Overseer of the Redeemed Christian Church of God is 71 this year. On this note, the man of God, for the umpteenth time, has been asked to leave office as the Church’s General Overseer.
In 2010, four Assistant General Overseers of the Church, Pastors M.O. Ojo, Ilori, Aderibigbe and D. Ojo, were said to have been retired by Pastor Adeboye on account of being 70.
The hit, this time, was said to be increasing, according to sources, that the man of God had to seek help from former President Olusegun Obasanjo.
The fact that Pastor Adeboye is said to be Chief Obasanjo’s bosom friend, and that the army general had some level of influence on some of the troublesome RCCG pastors, we gathered, may eventually douse the current tension.
Sometime last year, immediately after Pastor Adeboye celebrated his 70th, some Europe-based pastors of RCCG made the first call for him to quit on account of old age, demanding that a younger blood be allowed to take over the mantle of leadership of the Church.
About 10 top pastors from the branches of the Church were said to have met with the revered man of God this time to drive their demand.
One of the reasons adduced, we heard, was that Pastor Adeboye is already above 70, the age limit for the Church’s G.O.

SOURCE

Op, are u born again?

@frosbel, @shdemidemi, @Drummerboy

Beloved of God, its quite important to be able to seperate the Call of a Man from his Doctrine. U seems not to put a dividing line on dt. If we are to go by doctrine in all churches today, we ll end up saying thr is no calling to leadership (pastors) in church today because no one can claim a perfect doctrine hence we keep on knowing progressively.

I believ d level of understanding u guys hav few years back wont b same as of now. If u hav had disciples then, will u claim now were never call into ministries just becos u r ignorant of some doctrine u kno better now.

A man says "God said ds God said dt" is not enough claim to hold dt he s not a pastor or he s a fake one lik some says. A pastor preaches and collect tithe, a pastor clings all his life on preaching holiness tru works is not enough prove 4u to claim a fake. Christ revelation is in progressive understanding and we all kno in part.

We are firstly SAVED BY GRACE, CALLED OF GOD after then we can check doctrine. I wont deny d fact dt many knows d rit doctrines but hav refused to preach it because of their own reasons but dt doesnt need to pudh us to an extreme of making all man with some faulty doctrine a fake.

I m made bold to tell u, dt many of ds Pastors most Christians disdained here on NL hav done so great in ministries, use by God and be a blessing to d Body of Christ, hence lets honor their labour of love irrespective of their mistakes. I hav great honor for Pastors but dt wont prevent me from judging their utterances by d word or voicin out whn their doctrine doesnt go in line wit God's Word yet doctrine doesnt save a man, Christ does and if a man's ministry can bring many to Christ, he s done well. If u hav been in serious ministry work, u ll kno dt it doesnt take only knowing the scriptures to save, disciple, grow and mature an assembly of believers.

i believ, dt d challenges in most churches today is not d Pastors doctrine but d laziness of members who cant take time to check d Word, hence resulted to relying on men.

Finally, no one here on NL, Nigeria or d world at large is not a product of information. We can all claim dt all i hear is from d HolyGost, great but one way or d other we hav been influenced by people, places and our yearning to know d truth. Ds same ppl deserved our honor for such time and commitment showed to help us b a better person.

DrummaBoy: The practice of having a head in a church is a veritable one. The problem now is what is this head appointed to do? The five fold ministry as we see in Ephesians 4 is a duty and not an office! They are to bring God's people to maturity!! If after years of discipleship, the people under a Pastor still need you to be "thus saying the Lord" to them, they cannot be said to have come to maturity and you have failed in your ministry.

This ministries are not instituted in the church in the sense of heading and that is why Peter warns against Lording it over the flock of the Lord; rather they are there to help God's people to grow.

Frosbel, asked earlier, who is daddy G O? In my article were criticized the 3KM by 3KM church auditorium the Redeemed Church is planning on the express (Lagos-Ibadan), I made it clear that if Daddy G O had been doing what he is supposed to be doing in all these years of ministering on the express, there will not be the need to continue to have people flock there every month for Holy Ghost night. The fact that he and others like him have failed in the ministry committed to hands, turning the ministry to a place where they are G O, more than a place were they should mature saints under them, is the reason why they need such a big auditorium today.

Christian ministry is service to the church and not a place to enjoy privilege or revel in position.

Bros, be careful, be very careful. U r really moving to d edge.

frosbel: Can someone tell me why Paul never addressed his letters to the Pastor ( if such a title even existed )




Ephesians 1
New International Version (NIV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.



1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.



1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

2 To God’s holy people in Colossae, the faithful brothers and sisters[a] in Christ:

Grace and peace to you from God our Father.[b]

Bro, Paul doesnt hav to mention pastors. He was thr Apostle, their spiritual father. So he wrote directly to the assemblies he pioneered and also to their leaders. Those letters were read in d assemblies and discussed. Someone is always thr to lead, pastor the assembly.

frosbel: Wrong.

In the early church, elders were appointed not heads, and they were to care for the sheep and bring them into maturity so that they themselves will become true disciples of Jesus.

Most Apostles were really travelling evangelists who went from city to city setting up churches ( not denominations ) and appointed elders in the plural.

Also , if you read Pauls letters, he never addressed them to the Pastor , it was always to the church , saints and elders.

There is only one head and that is Jesus, the rest are simply siblings each with his own ministry and gift which he must exercise for the benefit of the saints.

Bro, are u neglecting d fact dt d early church has leaders who presided over church affairs?

[quote author=Demain_man]Yes. My priest does not tell me that God say do this or that. I go to God myself.[/quote]Do ur Priest preach and teach u God's Word? If so. Dts is called instructions, sometimes directions and corrections as inspired by d HolyGhost. He does hav to say God said. In all inspired ministration by d HolyGhost, dts d Will of God talking to u.