Joagbaje:

Seems you have run out of options . Why not respond to the points I made to your post

I didn't say paul was possessed. But he had obvious setbacks caused by this demon. In his body , in his finance, in hazards and persecution.

And let's not forget the reason for Pauls reference was the holier than thou attitude you exhibited as though talking about a demonic encounter or an experience in ministry is giving glory to Satan.

The point was to show how wrong you are because Paul penned down his own experience and encounters with the enemy . He is well informed about devils , their operations and how to handle them. I never said paul was possessed .

Criticism can be sweet.

Bro, u didnt hav any point to b responded to. Paul fed ppl almost every whr he went, becos business doesnt bring reasonable output now will b termed as set back by u, hence come for deliverance. then i think microsoft need deliverance now.
Wat many dont understand is dt d highest level of oppositions to d gospel or believers is not demons, its humans. I think i hav informed u about ds Paul afflicted in d body. i cant help beyond presenting God's Word.

On Paul's experiences. Was his experience aligned wit wat was presented in d scriptures? Yes. Did his experience align wit wat Christ preached? Yes? Bro, sharing experiences is not a crime but must be benchmark by d Word, not elevated above wat was written. Its lack of proper study, diligence in God's Word dt makes man turn to experiences as a message, as a sermon.

Its well documented dt all u guys hav presented on ds thread is about experiences (a woman was, a girl did, man of God did...) which whn compared to d Word were found wanting. If d scriptures can tell us to judge prophesies (inspired word and rev) how much more human experiences.

apostle007:

The scripture demands it! you want proof? Here we go.

First, a proper definition of "unflinching" is appropriate. According to the Oxford Dictionary, the word "unflinching" means bold, constant, determined, firm, immovable, resolute, stalwart, staunch, steadfast, steady, unfaltering, unshaken, unshrinking, unswerving, unwavering.

James 1:6-7 (KJV) reads thus, "6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord."

James 1:6-7 affirms what Jesus says in Matthew 21:21. So, scripture requires that we exercise unflinching faith! After all, everyone has a measure of faith, but only unwavering faith produces desired results.

Brother of God, nothing WAVERING IMPLIES DOUBT, and that is d direct opposite of Faith in ur context. U cant stand in both d sametime.

Is that an easy opt out? If you have a better explanation for Gal 5: 22-23 show me. What you typed here is abysmally evasive.

Bro, do proper study. Thats another topic for another day.

Paul, without sin?(!). Are you for real?

Romans 3:23 (KJV) says that, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

1 John 1:8 KJV reads thus, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

This is very elementary. I wonder what informed the response that Paul was without sin?

Do u actually believ d scriptures? Really u need to check dt, ask urself dt question. ar u for real?

JUSTIFIED - (dik-ah-yo'-o) Declared or made righteous in the sight of God
Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ [/b]unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 [b]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being JUSTIFIED FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Bro, why lifting scriptures out of context? ar believers still come short of God's glory? dt includes Paul.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
I Corinth 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness[b], and sanctification, and redemption:
1 Corinth 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, [b]but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Jesus Christ. are u a preacher of d Law? a worker of self righteousness? Do u cast out demons in ur unrighteousness or unjustified state? Go ask d sons of sceva

Seriously, u just disappointed me, bro. Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeee dont ever quote Romans 3:23 for a believer again. Plzzzzzzzz.

Joagbaje:
Lastly, falling into criminals' hands, having shipwreck, having flat tyre whn going on mission, raining heavily whn set for crusade can all b hindrances

Now you're talking. And what spirit is behind those hinderances? Paul had a demonic being Assigned to him by satan to afflict him and cause him hinderances. It was demonic .

2 Corinthians 12:7-9
. . .there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. . .

Bro, read wat u wrote urself, Is hindrances & opposition demonic possession or oppressions on Paul or his body?

nlMediator: ^^^

It may surprise you that neither your position nor the position of those that say that christians may need deliverance is new. Smith Wigglesworth wrote about it almost 100 years ago. Like you, he also did not believe that a christian may need deliverance until he saw it in action. And this was in Europe, so it's not even a Nigerian thing. You cannot run away from all experiences by saying the Word of God is your guide. Because, you do not know everything in the Word. So, when you see an experience that contradicts your present level of knowledge, your job is to search further or dig deeper into the Word. I presented the woman's experience to you because unlike you, she does not have the luxury of quoting scriptural verses that are not relevant to her situation. If you were a pastor and she was a member of your congregation approaching you with this predicament, what would your response be? That's what I want to know.

The bolded presented a shame the goes on among untutored believers. Luxury? Relevant? Actually wat kind of pastor produces members who dont know d scriptures? Well if dt's luxury to u, even kids in my church enjoy such luxuries and authorities.

Even d case u presented has holes (gaps) which i dont need to unravelled to u, mere asking d woman some intelligent questions will expose her ignorance.

Bro, do u think we ve not seen many coming around wit such believes, do u think i ve not counseled believers claiming all dt. But u kno, when such comes, we just smile becos we kno whr d problem lies (Lack of revelation of God's Word). An expounded exposition to God's Word has set all of them free from thr ignorance. u kno thr testimonies latter " I LACK KNOWLEGDE & REVELATION OF WHO I M IN CHRIST, I BELIEVED D WRONG TINS, NOW I LIVE IN AUTHORITY". Mayb d actual deliverance they need is from d wrong believ picked from our so called deliverance pastors.

Believers have long been kept under such ignorance (routine delievrance from demonic...) which goes in circles in other to keep them in church. The demons no dey tire? When actually will they start maturing, teaching others, healing d sick, ministrying to others, when!

Even in d scriptures whn demons ar cast out of unbelievers, get saved, they moved on to serving God, ministrying to others. But today d ministers themselves can be possessed. God save us oooooo. How shall we escape, if our man of God can also b possessed?

My final giv! Let us do exalt d word of God above any other extra biblical books. Judge them by d Word of God, not by experiences. Let our experiences be guided by d Word.

nlMediator:

My brother, I have a simple question for you based on this story I heard a few weeks ago in church. This woman apparently was experiencing a situation where some being has been disturbing her, groping her private parts, etc. even at work. Obviously, she hates what's going on. Now do you think the woman is

1) imagining things?
2) lying?
3) not born again?
4) oppressed by an evil spirit?
5) none of the above?

Oh and a second question: you said that of all the deliverance in the Bible, none was conducted on a christian. Do you think that demands the claim you're making that the ONLY logical conclusion is that christian may never need deliverance? Can you show one scripture that says that or that a christian can never be oppressed?

Bro, wit all humility ds is still human experience u presented, d Word of God has d final authority. If we continue depending, believing and quoting human experiences, one day someone will tell us dt he saw a demon in heaven and we ll believ too.

I m not in position to tell d reliability in d woman's words or state In Christ but abov all knowledge is d principal thing.

If u read carefully all i hav presented in ds thread u ll kno exactly whr d woman stands.
I really dont want to dwell too long on ds issue again becos d Word of God is clear but let him dt is ignorant be ignorant still.

Let me take u back to d 80s if u r from d West in Nigeria. I may not hav crossed many churches before i got established in faith but i could remember vividly whn younger. The major revivalist in Lagos at those times were Pastor Adeboye (RCCG), Pastor Kumuyi (Deeper Life), Pastor Obadare (Apostolic). Infact Pst Kumuyi was using RCCG church (then No, 1 cementry rd) for his major revivals.
Brother, i always follow my parents to any revival organised by any of ds three men of God. We (Christians in attendance) dont pray die by fire, we dont pray back to sender, we dont pray any demonic attack in my life, we dont pray poverty is a curse, God remove it. We simply pray fervently for God's revival in our lifes for service to him, dt d HolySpirit should speak thru and use us, dt God should strenghtens us, provide for our family etc. Bro, if u r a Yoruba man of d same age bracket as i m u ll kno d most porpular song of dt decade:

Wo o nu mi o, kowa ba mi soro (2ce)
O wo o nu Mose, Mose ba okun soro okun gbo
O wo nu Elijah, Elijah ba ina soro ina gbo
Wo o nu mi o, kowa ba mi soro

I trust u kno it.

In those days, its d unbeliever u will see, possesed of d devil and come out for deliverance. All ds men of God preached is Salvation and cast out d demon from d unbeliever and get him saved. After they wont tell him to come to church for breaking curses or further deliverance. All they do is vigorous follow up, teaching d fellow God's word, takin him to d field to save others.

Bro, but today, its sad dt many doctrines hav crept secretly into d church unnoticed to d intent d most new millennium converts cant kno d difference again.

Material gospel, Breaking of curses and casting out demons from believers, Miracle transfer, Poverty is a curse, Enemies to die etc. Even some of d prominent ministers of those time hav been taken by d wind of such doctrines for survival. Salvation doesnt carry d value placed on it again (though u r saved now but u still hav to do so sooo, they ll say), d Spirit of God wasnt given His full recognition again (Though u hav d Spirit of God in u, yet thr ar still some curses or demons dt ar stubborn or.... they ll tell u).

Heteros gospel dt arose from d lust of acquiring material things, doctrines which hav no place in d word of God. Notice dt at every junction of d road now u ll see thousands of posters wit just one aim (breaking curses, deliverance from ....), thr is money thr for sure while just going about preach d gospel and saving souls is not lucrative, infact u ll b d one spending.

I cry for my generation and that to come becos we crave for sharp sharp tins, we crave for prophetic utterance, crave for i catch d anointing. Reasons why unbelievers even on NL will pose questions and most believers will run under "God is mysterious", "my pastor say", "leave me to wat i believ" etc. They cant intelligently defend d faith which was delivered unto them. And whn someone come out to correct, admonish from d word of God on issues, u ll start hearing "u r proud, heresies, ar u greater than d man of God, wat spiritual experiences do u hav etc", exalting men than d Word.

I hav heard all ds for more than a decade now, but one tin is sure, its only a wind of doctrine, it mit tarry but will still b blown away and d "true" Word of God will reign supreme in d heart of men. Gathering and calling back home all that were dispersed abroad by ds wave of another gospel.

The Word of God is Lord!!!

Bidam: Ok..so what messenger of satan was buffeting Paul's body?

11 Corith 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, THERE WAS GIVEN to me a thorn in the flesh (not thorn in MY FLESH, as u quoted it earlier), the messenger of Satan to buffet me (not to buffet MY BODY, as u quoted it again). Reading our own meaning to d Word of God is dangerous to d Faith.

Brother of God, i m actually not goin to reinvent d wheel, i gav d explanation to all ds earlier and also gav a link for further study dt doesnt explain d issue by mere human experience but disectn d Word. What ever u concluded from it, hold fast to it but u may hav some explanations to make when u meet Bro Paul.

Bidam: Spiritual pride and hypocrisy dey worry you,other matured christians on this forum have given up on you.I was just trying to be of help here. I won't bother reading your lengthy garbage.For your info i quoted Kenneth HAGIN BOOK ON DEMONOLOGY

Thanks Bro, I quoted PAUL'S WRITING (THE EPISTLES IN D BIBLE)

Bidam: I can't help but notice your ignorance on some aspect of demonology,since you don't believe in practical experiences concerning these things,i am going to prove to you through scriptures that a believer can be oppressed and afflicted by the devil. I am talking about the soul,mind,will and emotion of a born-again child of God not the spirit.

Question: Can a Christian have a demon?

Answer: There is no such thing as a Christian's being demon possessed. To be demon possessed means to be completely taken over — spirit, soul, and body — by the devil. This was the case with the madman at Gadara (Mark 5).

Of course, if a person backslides, he's over in the devil's territory. By yielding to the devil, he could be taken over. But there is no such thing as a Christian's being demon possessed, even though he might not be walking in the best fellowship in the world. (Some people may not be walking in the best fellowship, but they're walking in all the light they have.)

A Christian, on the other hand, can be oppressed. All the demons I've dealt with in Christians have either been in the body or the mind. You'll find that's where their activity is.

A person could backslide and deliberately walk away from God, and the devil could eventually take over his spirit. But a Christian walking with God can't be taken over by the devil. In fact, the devil can't do anything in him without his permission. The Bible says, "Neither give place to the devil" (Eph. 4:27).

Something we need to realize is that there are degrees of oppression and possession. If you have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, you can say, "I have the Holy Spirit." But how much of you does the Holy Spirit have? You can be halfway or fully yielded to Him. The same is true concerning oppression. You can be halfway or fully yielded to the devil.

Question: Does the presence of sickness and disease always indicate demonic activity?


Answer: The devil is behind all sickness and disease, but that doesn't mean there is the literal presence of an evil spirit in a person. Scripture tells us Jesus ".. .went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil.... " (Acts 10:38). He didn't just single out certain ones and say that they were oppressed, because the Bible teaches that all sickness is oppression of the enemy. But sometimes there is the literal presence of a spirit there. In some cases a demon that brought a certain sickness may remain in the body and enforce sickness, so that demon has to be dealt with.

Now i know of Christians who are oppressed in this area,Christ has reedemed us from the curse of the Law and the bible says by His stripes we were healed..But is it not very unfortunate that Our churches which are full of genuine, dedicated brothers and sisters are afflicted with every type of torment, destruction, bondage, sickness, poverty, strife, abuse, divorce, and calamity.Even though they know and confess these scriptures

There is always a cause for curses.Proverbs 26:2 says: "So a curse without cause does not alight."

Generational curse is one of them and most Christians are erroneously taught in their churches that if you are in Christ you are a new creation and you don't need to break them. Actually it is your spirit that is new not your soul and body.

A generational curse is an invisible force that keeps us in a cycle or pattern of calamity. Without warning, the curse creates and fosters an environment of darkness, defeat, loss and destruction, with no evident cause or reason. It comes in repeated patterns, and it touches every aspect of our lives–family, friendships, business, ministry, health, productivity, etc. Just when you think things are going well, it hits again.Demons are in charge of these things,except you receive light and revelation to arrest these controlling spirits,they don't care whether you are born-again o.

Question: Will the devil try to return after he has been cast out?

Answer: The devil always will endeavor to go right back to the place he has left. That is a spiritual principle explained for us in Matthew 12:

MATTHEW 12:43,44
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh
through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence
I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept,
and garnished.

If you get saved, the devil will try to get back in your life; he'll try to get you to do wrong. If you were delivered of sickness, he'll try to put the same thing back on you. Matthew 12:45 tells us: "Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. ..."

In dealing with demons in the lives of Christians, you must be careful to get the Word into people. Otherwise you'll do them an injustice, because they may wind up seven times worse than what they were.

Always advice people to keep themselves in the love of God,cleanse themselves with the blood of the Lamb,study the WORD and pray in the SPIRIT ALWAYS.Christians are LAZY and don't practice these things DAILY.

The reason why Christians ought to do these things daily is because the air is full of spiritual forces..The bible calls it the prince of the power of the air that is at work in the children of disobedience..You have to obey the word of God by PRAYING ALL MANNER OF PRAYERS IN THE SPIRIT at all-times to avoid being made a pepper soup by the devil.

No -wonder the bible enjoins us to guard OUR HEART WITH ALL-DILIGENCE FOR OUT OF IT ARE THE ISSUES OF LIFE

ALL-DILIGENCE here entail constant concentrated well directed effort by the power of the Holy Spirit 24/7.Christians are lazy and don't do these. PAUL says we should PRAY WITHOUT CEASING.how MANY CHRISTIANS DO THAT?
Anyone that tells you Christianity is a bed of roses and that you should sit-down and do nothing since Christ has paid the price is lying bro.

There is still a self-sacrificing price to be paid even when you don't feel like it.It takes the Help of the Holy Spirit to keep yourself in the love of God and not to be contaminated with the world.The whole world lieth in wickedness.Don't be deceived.

I was carefully following ur post until i get to d point whn u brought in generational curses on believer. I couldnt but agreed dt u r one of those ppl dt hav been oppressin believers wit another gospel. Actually if thr is a possession of demon on christian then u r definately showing some attributes. I cant imagine u saying "demons don't care whether you are born-again" Bro i think d devil knows better dt such utterance.

U mentioned not knowing, or learned in demonology, Pls wat demonology school or study did Paul, John, Peter, Stephen, J.G Lake, Pastor Ayo Babalola to mention few, attend. I wonder if these great men will even understand such lectures but thr is a common knowledge they shared, all of them they understood one tin (THE POWER IN D NAME).
U r just bein troubled by extra biblical knowlegde becos u feel not safe wit d authority of d scriptures. In its simplicity, all ur demonology experience will b subject to only one tin (IN THE NAME OF JESUS) whn faced wit devils. Thats d one i know and dt never fails.

I dont want to dwell much on all ds ignorance, but u said u ll prove to me from d scriptures, but u ended not givin at least on example, case or situation. Thr are over 45 deliverance from demons/devil recorded in d scriptures, u cant see a single one from Christians?
U claimed salvation is not enough to deliver a man from power of darkness or curses, exposure to God's word is not enough for renewing of mind. Chairman judgment dey o for all we teach d flock.

Inferring from ur writing, the man who stole in Paul's church must be under demonic oppressions, rit? Unfortunately for d line of tot u presented, Paul simply admonished him not to steal again and work. If such guy is left in ur own hands, u would hav scheduled countless days of deliverance from generational curses to demonic attack.

See, bible encourage common sense within its obvious limitations to our senses, I think most of ppl conducting deliverance for christian should apply dt.
Is it dt Paul cant cast out d demon oppressing Timothy (if i m to think in ur line of being oppressed)? Paul applied common sense.

In total, d lack of understanding of who a new creation is, is d root of most ignorance in d churches breakin curses/casting out demons in believers.
Even Balaam donkey knew better that he dt is blessed is blessed. A tree cannot b blessed and at d same time cursed. Bro, i hope all ds casting of curses or wat do u call it doesnt go wit money for hand, or consultation fee.

Bro, by d Power of God, i hav preached, get saved , healed and discipled herbalists, sorcerer, mad who recievd sanity from diff backgrounds without d heteros gospel u believed but by d gospel Paul preached (if anyman is in Christ..., ....delivered from power of darkness..., ...righteousness of God.. ). Today, they are in ministry, saving lives, preaching d same gospel delivered unto them, doin great for God.

i wouldnt divert to d Material gospel u definitely share wit ur ppl too (putting poverty: state of one who lacks a certain amount of material possessions or money as curse or demonic torment). Its a pity Paul had d poor (gross poverty) in his church. Strife, anger, malice etc as demonic torments? whao dt means d whole church of Paul must b in real torment of d devil especially d Corinthian's church. Why wont u agreed wit dt since u assured dt Paul himself was under oppression of d devil.

I wonder wat d church stands for, i wonder wat type of specimen ds millennium deliverance ministers has turned believers into.

U kno wat, no matter d experience acquired, books read, prophesies fulfilled, only one thing judges all: THE WORD OF GOD.

And i believ and speak by faith like Hab 2:14 says; For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Dt a day will come whn d knowledge of His glory will be fully known to every believer, whn all hireling will b exposed, d Word of God will rule supreme, in dt day many churches will b emptied becos d sheep will seek d true shepherds and shall find, d flock shall b set free from ignorance unto light. A day is near whn every believer both young and old will tak thr place in Christ, from north, south, east and west we shall hear it, all around Africa light will come, in Nigeria light will prevail. Glory to God. Halleluyah!!

superior1:

My first inclination is to give my favorite response 'you are free to believe what you chose to believe' but on a second thought decided to list out bible verses you can look up when you have got he time

On wall of protection around Christians

1.1John 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him
2..Psalms 34:7 - The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them
3. 2Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.
4. Psalm 91:1-3 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the LORD, “My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence.

Protects, delivers, guards etc are promises made which are now legal realities of evry believer based on positions not locations. The encampth, the establish, the shelter, the fortress arent a function of locations but position. And our position is In Christ at d right hand of the Father. D bible called the far above principalities... Ephe 1: 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Col 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.

Our position is In Christ, thats not a question of whether he can get us, he doesnt even hav d power to do so. He s rendered useless.
Col 2: 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Heb 2: 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

All his strategies now only lies in persecutions, deceptions and ignorance not demonic possession or oppressions.

Infact, ds might shock u, D POWER D DEVIL EXERCISE OVER AN UNBELIEVER IS ILLEGAL, BECOS CHRIST DIED 4HIM,RESURRECTED 4HIM SAKE, EXPOSED SATAN 4HIM, HE ONLY HAS REFUSED TO ACCEPT CHRIST DELIVERANCE, HENCE D DEVIL'S OPPRESSIONS.

On Christians obsession and oppression

1.James 5:13-16 - Is any among you afflicted? let him pray
2. Mark 8:33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."
3. Luke 4:38-39 Jesus left the synagogue and went to the home of Simon. Now Simon’s mother-in-law was suffering from a high fever, and they asked Jesus to help her. So he bent over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her. She got up at once and began to wait on them.
4. 2 Corinthians 12:7 Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

1.James 5:13-16 - Is any among you afflicted? let him pray
afflicted kak-op-ath-eh'-o from the same as to undergo hardship:--be afflicted, endure afflictions (hardness), suffer trouble.

i ve said earlier hardship is not an oppression or possession. Hardship can come in form of persecutions, oppositions, troubles.
Infact, Paul prayed
2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith
3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. (These ar opposers (MEN) of the Faith not demons)

Romans 15: 30 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;
32 That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed.

Paul was never and can never b oppressed/possesed by a demon. Dont u understand, he has d Spirit of Christ in Him.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

If Paul and every believer is one spirit with d Lord, then is d Spirit possesed, God forbid, dts d Spirit dt raise Christ from d dead, dts wat dwells in us.

2. Mark 8:33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."
3. Luke 4:38-39 Jesus left the synagogue and went to the home of Simon. Now Simon’s mother-in-law was suffering from a high fever, and they asked Jesus to help her. So he bent over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her. She got up at once and began to wait on them.

We ar talkin about Christian (new creation) here not ordinary men.
Peter denied Jesus, Peter turned back to go into fishin again after Christ death but when d Spirit of Life possesed him.... He was never d same Peter again.

But i will need to point out to u dt not all sickness ar possessions of d devils, u hav ur environment saturated wit mosquito and u then hav malaria, dts not possession o. If dts possession/oppressions dt means Oyinbo drug too can cast out demons.
U kno most atheist stand point? If i can be healed b oyinbo drugs why need deliverance for healing.
Bro, prayer can heal all sicknesses including d ones oyinbo drugs handles and beyond, but whn sickness comes becos of demonic possesions, then check d man is not born again and simply preaching and accepting d POWER OF GOD i.e. d gospel is enough to to free him from demonic activities. Why didnt Paul conduct deliverance for Timothy weakness, or he ran out of power?

See wat ever d message of freedom from possession u preach in d church, u ll always hav d sick, d poor among us. Its not a casting out demonic activities, its all about them walking in light of God's word.

4. 2 Corinthians 12:7 Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

Brooooooooooosss, Brother Paul will quarrel wit u whn he sees u in d kingdom o.

I checked thru all bible translations i hav wat i see is "THORN IN THE FLESH NOT THORN IN MY FLESH", I dont kno whether u inserted dt deliberately.

Wat is thorn in d flesh in English idiom (a constant bother or annoyance to someone). Wat if i say sometin is a pain in d neck? Does dt mean its in my body?

Thru out Paul's ministries wat bothered, tormented him? Men (influenced by Satan) thru persecutions, oppositions to Faith. These are hindrances to his ministries.

Time wont allow me to dwell on ds Paul's Thorn but u can check these passages whr we hav closer words to these and conclude war it means.

Num 33: 55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Josh 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Judges 2: 3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

Eze 2: 6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

Also check this
http://www.kcm.org/real-help/article/what-about-pauls-thorn-flesh

nwuyag: @ ajayikayod,
I guess you are joking.
abeg make I hear word jare.
you sound like a coax or a fraudster?.(I no dey joke )
you sound like one man that preaches everymorning at ojodu berger
NB: nairaland is a virtual world.
#left thread

I may sound lik jokin but if u see me in reality u ll kno i m much serious about ds.
Nairaland mayb a virtual world but it accommodates real people lik u and me.
But really guy, i want u make ds choice and see whether it presents such dt i claim or not. Irrespective of every other thing, u wont be disappointed.

macof: I worship God without doubt, I worship God with all my heart.

Why do u imply dat God is complicated? God is nt complicated, it's easy to understand him, I understand God. So if upon ur Bible u don't understand God, it jst means ur religion is useless

macof,
Christ is the singular solution to every challenges of life, he s d explanation of all questions, he s all God wanted to say to us.
Science, religions and humans generally hav done/still doing thr plausible best to make d world a better place for all humanity, but Christ brought life and immortality to light, exposing us to reality.

Really, lik i ve said before dt u hav a passion to kno God more, it showed all thru, i trust God to help u accept ds decision so dt all can be revealed not in mysteries but in plain words.

[quote author=apostle007]

My line of reasoning does not force the conclusion that Jesus needed deliverance. Remember Jesus was without sin. Was Paul without sin? After all, the source of all bondage is sin. So how can somebody without sin need deliverance?

Going by d concept of sin in d scriptures, do u actually think u can bear d consequence of sin? I asked u wat exactly did Jesus saved (delivered) us from? Do u actually believ in a believer as d righteousness of God (11 Corith 5:21), do u actually kno wat it means to be a new creation?

U asked was Paul without sin? I answer u, Yes, Paul was/is without one, Saul was (If anyman b in Christ, he is a new man: righteousness of God, 1Jo 4:17 ... because as he is, so are we in this world.

I was specific. I referred to faith! I don't want to detract from the present issue by entangling myself with the issue of tongues, that is for another thread. I deliberately quoted 1Cor 12:9 and Gal 5:22-23 for you to read carefully, but your response indicated otherwise. The Scriptures you reeled out would work for a believer if and only if he has unflinching faith in them.

Bro, dont add to simple English (Mark 16:17; And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. Which one is unflinching faith again. pls dont deprive believers of thr right in Christ, why demand wat d scripture doesnt demand.

As I said before, and I reiterate, faith is both a gift and a fruit of the Spirit. You however do not agree that faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit because according to you the "Holy Spirit doesn't bear fruits."

Gal 5:22-23 KJV reads thus, "22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." If you pay careful attention to the word "Spirit" you will notice that Spirit is a capital S which refers to the Holy Spirit and not the human spirit. Fruit is also singular not plural...I need not dwell any more on this, Galatians 5:22 is clear enough.

Bro, pls try do a more diligent study on dt.

I agree that when you have strong faith and therewith act or stand on the word of God, of course the word of God will prevail. But this begs the question, "Do all believers operate like this? The answer is NO. Why? We need not go far: strongholds! Some believers have been born again for decades and yet still behave like spiritual babes. Why again? Strongholds! A stronghold may not allow a believer to walk in the fullness of the victory of God's Word, unless and until the stronghold (vitiating his faith in God's Word) is mortally dealt with. What is even most troubling is that some of these strongholds are so carefully hidden from the believer that he doesn't even know they are there!

A sermon can expose and destroy a stronghold. Prayers (with fasting if you like) can expose and destroy a stronghold. Praying in the spirit can expose and destroy a stronghold. Studying and Meditating on the word of God can destroy a stronghold. A word of knowledge from the ministering pastor can expose and destroy a stronghold. What else apart from these do they do in a deliverance service?

Pls wat deliverance service did Paul organised for new born babes o, He only taught then Word of God day and night. Enlighthening them to kno better than entanglement of men lik d one we ar discussing here.

1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

1 Corith 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

In Paul's church, thr ar babes, carnal Christians, him dt stole, him dt fornicate, fighters, haters, yet we can find a single account of casting out demons from them or organizing ur called deliverance.
Giv me a believr dt knows his right in christ, i will hav a believer who can cast out demons anyday, anytime. Its funny how many specialised in such, ministries today. I think it sells fast in African becos we cant seperate our tradition from faith.

An oyinbo man pikin dreamt of takin an ice cream in d night, he woke up and tell his dad, his dad response was, i will get one for u today.
An African man pikin had d same dream (possibly eating Eba & Okro soup), d next thing is Pastor i need deliverance.
If u had such dream and u check thr is no meat in d meal, ask for meat jo o, d earth is d Lord. Wat does d devil made.

So a believer that goes to a deliverance service is not acting against the Word of God, regardless of whether Paul mentioned deliverance or not! Praise God to many believers who now walk in victory due to deliverance services.

Words lik ds (bolded one) always leave me asking, do some churches actually believe in d final authority of the Word?
Regardless simply means disregardin wat Paul wrote. So u hav ur own personal inspiration? Mayb from ur Onlyghost not the Holy ghost.
I believe the Word of God is d final authority of church issues and contain d the singular solution to all human's problems.

If you believe that common sense is good enough to deal with particular strongholds, and it works for you, glory be to the Name of The Lord. To others who believe they can get and are getting help from deliverance services, I say again, glory be to the Name of the Lord.

Rather put lik ds, "to others who ar enslaved to believ in a diff gospel aside wat Paul's preach" Becos its all manipulations of believers.

However, if you do not belong to the latter group, let not thy faith be a stumbling block to thy brethren.

Stumbling block? No the faith of Christ in me liberates men.

superior1:

Let me make a little clarification so you can understand me better.
Man is a spirit, born again Christians have got Holy Spirit residing in their spirits hence can't come under demonic possession.

Man also have a soul which is the seat of his sub conscious and conscious mind, this also influences his emotion. It is possible and I have seen born again being obsessed by demons, you see issues of trauma, depression, insanity, hearing strange voices etc affecting them, of course for this to happen, the demon will have a legal ground or open door which it is using, a trained deliverance minister will try to identify this (most times direct or inherited sins), the born again Christian repents of this and the demon will be sent packing.

Man also have a body, it is possible and I have seen born again come under attack also in this area, I have seen cancer disappearing without a trace, illness that have been reoccuring in a family or a person gone without medical intervention etc.

Bro, all u explained here are human experiences. Can u giv us scripture and verse to back up?

Every born again has a protecting wall around him, like Job was protected and satan needed permission to cross that wall but sin most times open up this wall giving room for a legal ground (it is he who opens the edge, the serpent will bite). That is why Christians should not give room to the devil or indulge in sin

Christians dont hav walls around, we are overcomers, Haaaaaaaaa. More than conqueror. We are not doing hide and seek o.WE ARE DELIVERED.
Lessons from Job's story, 1st; Job wasnt a christian, Job wasnt as knowledgeable (no knowlegde about d devil) as u r today, he put all blames on God.

See in reality, if thr is anyone who needs protection it should b d devil (if he can get any) becos he s been stripped of his power, He only works wit deceptions and ignorance.
I think most of our movie industries hav done more arm than good to d christian faith. The bible christian goes from places to places looking for who to deliver from oppressions of d devils.

Crixina: please guys I don't want to ensue in this arguments that has been going on for eternity,but I know that when a christian is genuinely born again,saved,you don't need any form of deliverance from the power of darkness again cos col 1 I think frm verse 13 explains that.maybe the only thing one needs is trying to make sure one dsnt go back to sin.in the case one does,an maybe one is ministered to,I wouldn't call that deliverance from the power of darkness,rather restoration from the bondage of sin.thanks.

That's d spirit of Christ talking, God bless u bro.

newmi:
Enough of all these Infact they are mere distractions there's so much to talk about and discuss on this topic so if you don't a story to share its on wise u listen to those who have and let's discuss meaningfully. Thank you

Story to share? Ds is a big shame, christians now turned to story tellers, following man's experience dt has no place in d scriptures, Is dt how u share stories to ur sheepey in church every meeting days: full of human experience, quoting everytin in ds world expect d Word of God. Christians comparing scriptures wit scriptures and u said it should be put aside so dt u can enjoy ur tales by moonlights? Bro, just knee down whr ur and ask for 4giveness becos actually u ve committed a greater one wit such sayings.

U call ds mere distractions, Word of Life. Bro, u really need scolding o (sorry to say) by ur Pastor.

Joagbaje:

Just clinging on straws , humble yourself. Paul's hindrances and set backs were caused by a demon. That demon was responsible for the afflictions ,persecution, hardship ,and many weariness of Paul.

I discovered u are just sitting on a knowledge dt has no place in d scriptures. I asked u questions u cant answer and u r deliberately refusing it whn u r pointed to d scriptures. U hav been using words lik humble urself, u hav ego etc, do u kno wat pride is? Its when u r shown realities from d scriptures and u deliberately ignore in other to follow ur own knowlegde dt has no proof in d scriptures but rest on man's experiences.
1 Pet 2:2,
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

1 Tim 6:2-4, 2
.... These things teach and exhort.
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,


U cant giv me a single scriptures to justified ur claim of casting out demons from a christian (temple of d Holyghost, a man possesed by d Spirit of God).

Demons responsible for Paul's afflictions ,persecution, hardship ,and many weariness of Paul? If d early church hear ds from u they will actually had preach d gospel to u to believe, get u filled wit d Holyghost and speak in tongues, becos obviously wat u believ in is God existence (Act 19:1-6) not in redemptive work of Christ.

U kno, whn all u do is sit in church and wait till d prey come asking 4deliverance so dt u can exercise self owned authority on them in d name of casting out demons, u can never kno wat persecution means. If not u ll understand dt persecution (human oppositions to d gospel) is far greater and ur so called demonic activities. Early church dont even need more than a second to cast out demons but did u read how persecution was able to distort church activities?

U mentioned hardship, weariness?
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Is that demonic oppressions? Ar u part of those dt promises believers wat scriptures doesn't promise. Brother of God we glory and rejoice in tribulations, hardship, weariness, persecutions, perils becos we hav overcome d world, and d greater one lives in us.

FOLYKAZE:

What book did Jude quote from?

Was the Book inspired or fetish documents?

If Jude didn't quote any book, could that mean he was lying and writing gilberish?

Have u gone thru d link i posted. If u do, all d above questions are answered thr.

I think ds mit help

http://www.signsoftheend.net/Prophecy/DEBUNKINGBOOKOFENOCH.html

superior1:

Let me understand you, when you become a Christian, you do not need deliverance ministration or something?

A Christian can get obsessed and oppressed by demons but can't be possessed. I have never ministered to anybody who is not born again anyways because the end will only be worst.

I asked some questions in d post u responded to, can u kindly provide answers or clarification?

nwuyag:
Prayer that cannot save dieing children, Wetin the thing won save for me?.
I don't need it more than refugees, dieing children, earthquake and flood victims. Don't waste energy on me, use it for them...#mstchew

I will rather waste dt energy on u becos u r peculiar and different, I see u doing great things for God in nearest future. I see a different person in u.

Joagbaje:

Says who? Dont add to scriptures . The afflictions of paul is not all about persecution, he could only be persecuted after preaching . But in this case he didn't even get there . He was impeded by the enemy from making the trip. It's not persecution dear.

When Paul talked about his weaknesses or bodily affliction and weaknesses was it persecution. When he fell into the hand of armed robbers was it persecution. Was shipwreck persecution.?

Bro, u really are not reading all i wrote or possibly reading wit defensive goggle. I will lov u to do a thorough study on 1 Corith 12 without a mindset.

Rom 15:19
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20, Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
21, But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
22, For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.

Which cause? verse 20 and 21 giv u d answer. I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named.

Bro, ppl in serious evangelism will tell u dt, dt is one of d hardest feat in mission work. Demanding so much from u. We ve seen ppl been hindered to even see thr families, children etc for d cause of d gospel.

1 Thess 2: 14
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: {persecuted us: or, chased us out}
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.
18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

Verse 18 says: wherefore. "Wherefore" is not an english word dt can stand alone, we need to read previous verses to kno d knowledge transmitted.

Verse 2 down answered dt
2, But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention., Read up to verse 16.

Can i ask u, wat exactly did Christ saved us from? wat actually is d origin of devil tormenting man. Do u agree dt salvation and newbirth are total (new created spirit, born of God).

Lastly, falling into criminals' hands, having shipwreck, having flat tyre whn going on mission, raining heavily whn set for crusade can all b hindrances but never ever call for deliverance show because a believer has overcome already. In fact d wreck described by Paul, he had a foreknowledge of it, he was never in darkness.

Bro, we also are not in it. We ar always aware, nothing take us by surprise or by chance, children of light (no darkness in or around us), light of the world Bro, The greater one lives in us. As he is (complete, justified, glorified, righteous, delivered, triumphant), so ar we in ds world (1 John 4:17).

wiegraf:

You see, such 'wisdom' you have here is a lot of things, all silly. And I don't need a storybook to tell me that, simple common sense can discern that. For instance, I cannot but note you did not answer anything. You simply blatantly threw a poor cop-out, one that translates mostly to mysteriosnesees. Also, you seem to be asking me to defer to your authority, just because. What is wrong with you? You're telling me 1+1=10 and I should just accept it because? Are you high? Do I look like your slave or something? You expect me to simply believe obvious nonsense just because??

A simple question, can your god build a rock he cannot carry, yes or no? I am trying to save anyone with a semblance of a brain from folly, hope you can understand that?

And again, if you can accept nonsensical claims because of mysteriousneseses, why do you have problems with the op? He has as much evidence backing him up as your storybook; non. Indeed his claim is more plausible than many in the bible, yes? Spirits can possess, yes? It's in your storybook. So why not possess someone at mtn even, then troll for souls with bulk sms? If you insist there must be a natural means of achieving this feat, why can't the demons use unknown technology to achieve his objectives? They're capable of turning into snakes and having conversations yet incapable of this?

Why the opprobrium for the op?

Sir, i m definitely HIGH and i ll remain high on this. And watz wrong wit me is dt i find it hard to giv up on u.

Its important u kno dt God is not mysterious as u may hav heard many times. He s only mysterious to d outside but to us (Christian) it has been given (revealed) to know Him and things concerning Him. These things will remain mysteries as long as someone is far from him, hence to understand Him, i want u draw nearer, closer to whr mysteries are turned into realities. i kno u desire explanations of many things in d scriptures, u just felt how can i just believ in someone i cant see and many explanations u ve gotten couldnt answer ur questions. i show u a true way to get all answered without shadows of turning.

macof: we have totally derailed this thread. abeg open new thread for evangelism and watch me scatter the place

Sir, we mit derailed d thread but hav not derailed d purpose of our talk. I m glad u kno my purpose of talking to u and i wont change my stance and desire on dt becos u r much more important threads and scatterin places.

nwuyag:
pray better then, and mr omniscient also knows if I will change or not.....and erm , erm,,, I am thinking of xtianity in the near future(maybe for the warmth it offers you guys) infact self no! sef , not possible cos you will start thanking bible god for what he did not do. its my choice only So let me save the thanks; I guess the answer to your prayer on my part is already no!

yea, i kno its may b "No" now, but i assure u dt in near future ur own salvation by d Gospel of Christ will b a prove for u dt God Anwsers Prayers, an can save d hardest of men.

macof:

dude, Quotes from your man written book aka words of men are only for the weak minded, and mentally immature individuals.
I wonder why any time I bring forth questions like this to Christians they just quote some words of men, without thinking for themselves, and using their brains.

You disgust me *spits*

i will rather hav u disgusted now wit my word than leave u to urself.
I will rather accept all ur abuses than giving up on u. Wat matters to me is ur life, ur being. Irrespective of wat u hold as believ, a proper understanding can only come between us later and i believ its so soon. U definitely cant escape it becos many here on NL ar praying for u, especially u. His abounding grace reflects so much around u waiting fro ur acceptance. He wont b wary no matter wat u say, do, think, u hav been loved and always loved.

nwuyag:
which means I should not call him my creator.

what do you mean by fact. you said previously that " before science, there has been healing".
This comment is naive cos there is no particular time that people gathered and said " yh, let's start science". everything is about exploring the world around you which has been there right from time, that's why you have brains. We have reached a level of civilization right now which means that someone interested in further exploration(what you are now calling science) can do so, major in it and earn a living from it. Before the 20th century, millions have died of small pox, but now the vaccines are alreasy available. it does not mean that some people wouldnt have been healed of that(this sort of thing happens to me today). Its the continuous testing, prooving and continuous exploration that has led to the scientific theories in which your cars, laptop and other devices work.

if science did not try to explain things, do you think you can use a laptop, or take a picture with a camera. Right now, people are still exploring, while you are here arguing on an imaginaty being which you are using to fill up their gaps. But when they invent something, maybe in the next few years, you will use them. They are not perfect and that's why they are open to corrections. (Its this sort of thing that has led to our technological advancement).
Science is not PRIMARILY trying to explain/ understand god, they are only exploring the world around us and obviously, in one way or the other, should have looked for the existence of a being. There is no proof yet and a real scientist will take an agnostic stance on that, but specifically speaking on the xtian god; common sence and logic has debunked that in many ways which the erronous contradictory book and personality described as the bible god has been put. Unless you are too blind to see it, then maybe, I am talking to someone delusioned.
Don't assume that there is already a god, cos that's where the problem lies cos there are even a thousand been preached. All due to ancestoral reasoning but many are now debunked.
To the bolded, let me say that you are blindly wallowing in ignorance of this 21st century if you claim that people who have found a way to another planet and have satelites in space are still in "stupidity". It only shows how ungrateful you can be.



I don't want to go much into gospel talk. I just want you to know that the god you are talking about is omniscient and has given man free will and THEREFORE KNOWS WHETHER YOU ARE GOING TO HEAVEN OR HELL RIGHT NOW, or he is no longer omniscient and if he knew people's who will go to hell before they were born, then why create?. Tell me if such is worth taking serious

got you well here, tho I don't want to go much further... I guess I ve lost track of the previous posts..... but can you start by explaining my previous statement before I see anything that can be taken seriously from xtianity

Ok

I am not interested in any material gospel. I just showed you a tip(<1%) of the questions that I have against xtianity. But if you think material gospel is wrong, then you could tell that to your xtian brothers who you cannot deny seeing do this everyday. But let me ask?...why pray? And what do/should you pray for?

Bro, in all humility, thr is a big gulf between us that wont allow understanding of all i want to say. That big gulf is wat i m first working on to destroy in other to bring u closer in sight, voice, percievin and understanding. Thats exactly wat i pray for daily.

macof: Some questions for you. pls answer them as I know christians usually leave my questions unanswered
1. Who told you u needed a saviour, that u had to believe in a Jew before you can get to heaven?
2. What are you suppose to do to make heaven? just believe in jesus?
3. What did your ancestors say about heaven, and how to make it to heaven??
4. did your ancestors preach about any messiah?
5. Are your ancestors going to hell for not worshipping the Jew?
6. why did Jesus not go round the world preaching? since you claim he came for the world why did he not preach to the world, why only Jews?
7. why do u Believe Jesus in the first place? wats makes u so convinced that u cant get to heaven unless u worship him?
8. would people who dont worship the Jew go to hell?
9. Why is the bible about the Jews, why don't I see any righteous attributes allocated to the gentiles?
10. Why is it that God showed himself only to the Jews?
11. Why was it only Israel that was referred to as God's own nation? so Egypt and the rest were for Satan abi?

I think I should stop here, I really have a lot of questions to put forward but maybe as time goes on I would, but Christians should answer this questions

Bro, d funniest thing is a believers' foundation class will clear all d listed questions and any doubt u hav but a man cant understand beyond its senses, it takes d Spirit of Christ to understand d Word of God

1 Corith 2:6-16, We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ.


Definately, arguing d scripture wit u wont profit anyone. I will be glad if u can take d first bold step then light will come. It doesnt matter wat ever u hav believed or disbelieved, wat matter most is ur life. I feel Christ love abounding much more around u daily, everywhr u go or do. Embracing ds grace will surely b d greatest decision u ever made. u gave all u stand for today a first opportunity to test its reality, why not giv ds a sincere opportunity and see how much u ar loved.

Joagbaje:

Really? so what's the edification and learning in Paul's experience here.

1 Thessalonians 2:18
Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

So Paul was exalting the devil to be so powerful to hinder a whole apostle! Isn't it? .

Bro, we were admonished to always explain scriptures wit scriptures becos no scripture stands alone nor contradict the other.

1 Thess 2:18 u quoted is not about spiritual oppressions, its all about persecution. Read Paul well, he always talk about utterance given so dt d gospel may hav free course (not hindered). D only trick devil has today on any believer is IGNORANCE (lack of knowlegde of God's word0 AND PERSECUTION (ability to use d unsaved hinder d gospel of Christ). aside these, he is just a big lair, fearful and defeated.

And in the area of persecution, God will not just "wipe out" all those who oppose us so that we can preach the Gospel without any hindrance. He loves even those who reject Him. God's mercy toward those who persecute us may cause us some hardships, but it allows the unbelievers the opportunity to receive salvation

Paul made a similar statement to this one in Ro 15:18-24,
(I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— 19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. 20 It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. 21 Rather, as it is written:

“Those who were not told about him will see,
and those who have not heard will understand.”
22 This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you.
23 But now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions, and since I have been longing for many years to visit you, 24 I plan to do so when I go to Spain. I hope to see you while passing through and to have you assist me on my journey there, after I have enjoyed your company for a while.)

In that passage, he explained that the hindrance to his traveling to Rome was that there were unreached people around him that he felt compelled to preach to before he could leave them. It is most probable that he was describing the same thing here. He wanted to return to Thessalonica; but Satan was hindering the preaching of the Gospel, so it was taking Paul longer than he anticipated to finish his work there.

1 Corinthians 16:9, For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and [there are] many adversaries.

Paul was saying that the Lord had given him a great opportunity to share the Gospel in Ephesus, but there was much opposition.

Joagbaje:

And what is wrong with expetience ? the apostles documrnted their exoerience . jesus hungry ,jesus cursing a tree, so in what way does cursing a tree glorify God. It's obvious you don't flow flow in the supernatural. You're merely a critic displaying ego And your criticism is unnecessary.

What is edifying is paul and alexander experience .

2 Timothy 4:14
Alexander the coppersmith has done me much harm. The Lord will punish him,

Or his afflictions and sufferings? Why need he pen it down?

2 Corinthians 11:25
Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep

Criticism is very sweet you know, it gives you the holier than thou feeling

Stop hiding behind ds criticism or ego of a thing, lets talk God's Word.

I never told u dt experience is bad but it must align wit d word of God. All Paul experiences u quoted has a place in His Word and for our learning, i.e. persecution. Then give me Paul's writing supporting ur Op claims or we should just stay in d realm of nairaland human experience to jugde spiritual things?
See, no one is criticizin u, just sharing and admonishing u but taking it as criticizin wont help.

apostle007:
The implication of Paul needing deliverance is beside the point. And whatever meaning you assign to Paul's "messenger of satan" is also beside the point. What is clear in the Bible is that Paul was tormented by it and needed relief and asked to be free of it! If that is not needing deliverance, I wonder what is!

Whn u throw things away in d name of beside d point, it doesnt allow a proper understanding of issues at hand. Following ur line of tot, we then conclude dt Jesus needed deliverance too (Let ds cup pass over...). But glory b to God, he is d deliverer.

U ar not answering my questions

Act 10:46, Act 19:6, Mark 16:15-18. If a believer had to grow for some time, lik u said b4 functioning in Spirit abilities, why is tongue diff. D truth is they ar all of one - Spirit given.

You implied that Paul didn't preach deliverance. Nor did he preach Baptism. Jesus went through baptism. Believers are still being baptized, what then is your point? That Paul didn't preach deliverance is irrelevant to the validity of the ministry of deliverance.

Never told u Paul didnt preach deliverance but not to d believer except u show us one here.

The scriptures you quoted are promises made to believers, nevertheless you would exercise faith to walk in the fullness of these promises. But faith is a gift (1Cor 12:9) and also a fruit of the Spirit(Gal.5:22-23), so the exercise of faith differ from one believer to the other despite the fact that they've all accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour. If faith is a gift to one believer, to another it is a fruit of the Spirit which develops over time.

U said Col 1:13 is a promise? Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. Bro, past tense a promise?. They ar not promises they ar realities. Greater is he dt is in u. Bro, wat actually is salvation, wat do u think Jesus saved us from, wat exactly is the origin of oppressions, who actually is d oppressor, wat is his position to a believer. Whn u read we ar complete in Him who is d head..., wat goes on d ur mind on dt.

The preaching of deliverance in any form to a believer is just to enslave them and keep them coming to church. Having God's revelation thru is word is enough without putting them in bondage, they ll come.

Bro, Holy Spirit doesnt bear fruits, dt refered to the recreated human spirit, check well.

You asked me to remove renewing of the mind from the list of what deliverance is because it would make deliverance a continuous process. Not a chance! Who told you deliverance is a one time event? Else, there wouldn't be any need for believers, as demonstrated in the Lord's prayer, to pray for deliverance from evil. Nor would we need an Advocate on the right hand side of God interceding for us (Romans 8:34, note the present continuous tense). As long as the works of darkness is ongoing, deliverance will be a lifetime process until the trumpet blows.
Further more, deliverance is also a function of knowledge. And in so far as you agree that none is above renewing, then none (including Paul) should be above deliverance!

Here's the thing, every time you overcome temptations or undo any work of Satan, you are going through deliverance. Deliverance could be from sickness or anger or lust or fear or even pride. So your suggestion that no believer needed deliverance is arrogant and unwarranted. Are you implying that you are perfect and immune from sin? You see, wanting deliverance doesn't necessarily mean you've submitted to a "messenger of Satan." It could mean being tormented by it, just as in the case of Paul.

And lastly, deliverance does not in any way demean the position of a believer who lives not by works but by God's Grace.

Romans 8:34? try take it from verse 31 till 37
31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able (to be against us) to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus advocating wit d father is a reality of our forgiveness not deliverance, he wont deliver again, he has delivered, one and for all
Heb 10:10, By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Sanctified thr implies hagiazo (to make holy, i.e. purify or consecrate).
Heb 9:12
1 Pet 1:9-10, But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar (purchased) people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Bro, most things u listed requiring deliverance are solved by common sense. D man dt stole, Paul didnt say lets condcut deliverance for him, he simply said, steal no more. Today, ppl would hav conducted series of deliverance for such. Paul wrote 14 books and all filled wit teaching of God's Word, no single mention of conducting deliverance for a believer in all d books yet we dwell on our own "personal revelation/experiences" straying from His word. A thorough exposure to revelation of God's word and proper discipleship/training is wat every believer needs to kno thr right in Christ, sadly dt s d most church and leaders lack today.

wiegraf:

You do notice you've just stated he can NOT build a rock he cannot carry, yes?

Below is wat i shared wit someone on nairaland who claims a knowlegde and life outside God, i think it will benefit u too. He wrote:

wat word of God? have u heard God talk that u say u know the word of God? word of Jewish men u call word of God.

My response:

U see, such intelligence u claim is referred to vanity in d Word, the best of d knowledge of ds world is darkness, vanity and foolishness. I m not here to argue wit u on whether thr is God or Savior. I will rather strife 2get u saved in Christ wit every opportunity given to me by God than engage in unending fallacy/argument. Anytin i need to discuss outside ds wont benefit d unsaved.

See, ppl wit lik tot dt u portrayed ar fully identified in d scriptures even b4 we were born and d more i hear u, d more i see God's grace and power abounding to save u thru d Gospel of Christ. Definitely wiegraf, u wont escape ds grace because b4 ur rejection and acquiring of knowledge, He has loved u. Ur struggling wit it or trying hard to prove it wrong cant nullify His desire for u - "To be saved and come to d knowlegde of His glory".

Joagbaje:

. The thread is not for everybody. If have experience in casting out devils .you will talk less. Every christian have the power . But there is experience required. Other gifts are required . Discernment etc. don't just come and blow theory. If asked a question about evangelism and my experience with an Alhaji , I expect soul winners to respond. I specified who I want on the thread . Not theologians .

Shamback or smith shared in his book how he came to Africa and ministered to a witch doctor and in the night , satan visited him , heavy wind which flung his bed from on end to the room to the other, when he woke up he commanded the devil to come back and re arange the room . The wind came back in and re aranged the scattered room. That's an experience. If I call ministers who flow in certain grace to share there experience on how they handle their cases . It doesn't involve you. You mustn't read it and if you read you must comment. It's for those who it's related to.

Bro, every christian article relates to every believer, we only need to benchmark it with d Word as d final authority.

I will ask u,which should we hold to, Man experience or d Word of God, especially whn thr are contradictions?

U hav reduced a spiritual question of urs to mere human experience, quoting Shamback, quoting others except d Word of God. If i were u, Bro, i ll back it up wit Paul, Peter.. most of all Jesus. U seems not to hav enough prove from them or u feel u hav a "personal experienc" outside wat they teach?

As much as experience are wonderful in every locations or spheres, they are subject to d test of the word of God (1Thess 5:21, Prove all things; hold fast that which is good). Experiences, prophecies, revelations are subject to d test of God's Word.

These are d reasons we hav so many outside now claiming to hear, see things and go about deceiving themselves and others who dere not check wit d Word and make d world ridicule things of God. Reasons we hav many TESTIPHONIES (inaccurate testimonies) all around.

Bro, human experience can fail, prophesies can change or not accurate but God's Word abide.

I discovered u already hav a set mind on ur Op, becos u hav strongly rejected those who oppose it even whn they pointed u to d scriptures, that left me thinking why did u actually posted it.

Finally, bro. in all my experience in ministry with documented manifestations of d Spirit Power, Woe to me if i dere place my experience above God's Word, i dere not come out and try judge issues based only on experience or my ability. The Word first, others follows.