₦airaland Forum

Thank you for that verse!

Well, if this is a tribute to Shahan, why not?

I seldomly contribute on Nairaland since joining, even though I'm mostly online and read most posts. One section I deliberately avoided was religion, because of it's inherent divisive nature, and my fears were confirmed when I read a lot going on there. I hate being unnecessarily argumentative, especially when it's going no where. I become so passionate about issues when I get involved.

When I was going through the religion section and saw the topic on women preaching, I decided to throw in some points and suddenly out of the blues came one Shahan! I exclaimed 'who is this?'. I checked for previous posts and couldn't find many. But the depth and passion of the replies fascinated me and I was game!

Then I wanted to find out the gender because of the position you were taking. Here is a man convinced women should teach, but who is this opposing me with equal (rather more) zeal? I was almost sure she has to be a woman, going by the unwillingness to reveal her gender. Men hardly do that, but I wasn't sure because of the length of the posts, until trini_girl came to the rescue.

Keep it up, sister. Thoroughly enjoyed our discussion. Only a little note of caution, keep it cool when replying those incisive posts on religion, so as not to be abusive. Your sound reasoning and depth is enough to endear anyone to your points and more than often drive the points home.

Bless you and your siblings- m4malik has been great too.

In the last days, perilous times shall come, people shall speak things abominable.  'Offences must come, but woe to him through whom they come', Jesus Himself said that.

Why would anyone believe what someone says hundreds of years after an event more than what contemporaries that lived and ate with the person in concern, as eye-witnesses, wrote about him?  We are in the last days!

Jesus Christ did not marry, not to talk of having biological childrren.  To suggest Mary was his girlfriend is an inspiration from the pit of hell.  I wish this thread will die here, now!

Come to think of it, though he had no children biologically, anyone that believes and receives him becomes his child.  This is the gospel!  Hear what it says in John 1 vs 12:

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name.

Will you become His child?

Preach ? Yes.

Teach in church? Yes.

Overall or final authority/head in home/church? Nope.

@mihai

Don't even go there. The Great Commission was given to his disciples, both men and women, at Galilee. Let's check the references.

Remember that at the tomb, the two Marys, who are also disciples, went early sunday morning and were met by an angel. Hear what the angel said unto them, just some verses above Matt. 28 vs. 20.

Matt. 28
5 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified.
6 “He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying. 7 “Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see Him; behold, I have told you.”

Check out the words of Jesus to the same women:

10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.”

And who are these His brethren or followers? The same people that had been with Him all these while, not just the eleven. How am I so sure? See the same account in Luke 24:

Luke 24:
5 and as the wome[/b]n were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living One among the dead?
6 “He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to [b]you while He was still in Galilee,

9 and returned from the tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.
10 Now they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James; also the other women with them were telling these things to the apostles.

33 And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven and those who were with them

36 While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.”

Note what He said to them in verse 49:

49 “And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

Now, let's go to the book of Acts. Mind you, both Gospel of Luke and Acts were written by the same author, Dr. Luke. So Acts is actually a sequel to Luke. So who are these same brethren, followers, or disciples commanded to stay in Jerusalem?

Acts 1:
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;

8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

14 These[b] all [/b] with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
15 At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together),

These were men and women, and not just the eleven disciples. However, see what Acts 2 says

Acts 2:
1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.

14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them:

Are there only the eleven? No. This is just emphasising that the eleven diciples were present, not that the were the only ones present. The same thing conveyed in Matt. 28 vs.16.

Comparing scriptures with scripture establishes the truth. Guess I have done enough.

All,

Shall we then all discuss what firstfruits is, so that people may know the truth and be free?

Bless y'all

Folks, some quick comments.  I don't intend to drag us back, but it appears I missed some comments.

@mihai

For all of that, though, this argument is very interesting. I think it would settle my doubts if someone found a quote by Jesus himself, though, because as someone said before (I'm not inclined to find the quote), Paul at times speaks as a man, working to build unity in the church.

What more quote do you require from Jesus himself when he said in Matt 28:19

19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

This is a direct commandment from the mouth of Jesus himself, made at Galilee after ressurection, to those disciples that have gathered, men and women.  These were his parting words to go preach to all nations and make them disciples (verse 19) and teach the disciples made (verse 20).

@Shahan

Take a simple test: if you are interested in the Greek language, ask yourself "what precedes what" between masculine and feminine constructs. The accents have to be added to make certain constructs feminine; and where scribes were not certain, rather than use a feminine, they used a neuter (it or them).

Not all the time.  It's either way.  In this particular case, the accent has to be added to make it masculine.  I have said that before.  It's simply harder to make Nympha masculine.

On a lighter note, I was wondering before if Shahan is male or female.  I can see you've updated your profile accordingly because I was going to ask you. Is it not really funny that we have a female on the side of women not teaching and yours truly on the side of women teaching!  What a liberty Christ has brought us and what a fellowship we have in Him! 

But this is my own personal opinion.  Women can teach, minister or pastor in the church setting.  But when it comes to the final authority or leadership in the church, a man should take responsibility.  My opinion, this is. 

It is what I feel is the order in the scriptures.  Yes, there may be many teachers, ministers, pastors, evangelists, prophets etc in a local assembly, both male and female, but the final authority, or overseer, or bishop if you like, providing the spiritual guidance, should be a male, with a wife as a companion to him in the work- Timothy, Titus etc are examples.

My reasons are not far-fetched:

1.  That has always been the order in the scriptures.
2.  It is easier for a man to carry such huge responsibilities because of the way he is wired.  He has more brute strength than a woman.  It could be so tasking.
3.  A woman has her husband and kids to cater for- a no-less job for that matter, that adding the added responsibilities may be too much to carry and manage.
4.  A woman without a supportive husband will have a distraction, but a man already has a companion in his wife, hence the prescription that he (the bishop, shepherd) has to be the husband of one wife.
5.  Not a single woman in the 12 disciples that were to be pillars of the faith, as final authorities.
5.  A cursory look at those ministries/churches with a woman as the overall head has more than informed my opinion- they seem to be prone to scandals.  And something always seem to be missing.  I may be wrong.

Like I said, my opinion!

@Shahan

I am using a Parallel Translations Bible that has 10 different translations and comparing all of them, with their Greek lexicons, not just NIV.

In all of these I found out that 6 out of the 10 translated Acts 18: 26 as Priscilla and Aquila.  Following your arithmetic,

Total number of verses quoted = 5
Total number of times Aquila mentioned before Priscilla = 2
Total number of times Priscilla mentioned before Aquila = 3

You see, it depends on which translations you use, but more translations put Priscilla first.  Not that this means so much nor take anything away from either of them.  The truth is that Priscilla taught and pastored.

Notice I used Nympha[b]s[/b] (not Nympha, which is feminine); however, as above, more of the scholarly translators believe it to be masculine, since the feminine will need an accent to make it so; and early Greek did not use accentuations.

I disagree with this.  The feminine Nympha predated later manuscripts that rendered it Nymphas.  In fact, you have to do something to it to make it masculine.  The natural rendition of that name is that of a woman.  The reference to her house church made it clearer.  Consider the Greek used "oikon autees ekkleesian" meaning "her house church"!

Yet, Pheobe being a servant of the church in Rom. 16:1 should not be treated in isolation of its proper context which verse 2 offers. I think mihai has been of very good help in this regard to call our attention to that. It would be dificult for anyone to push the agenda that Pheobe taught in the church unless verse 2 is ignored. She "succoured" many - that's the sense in which she was a "servant"; and this is made clear even in Strong's Dictionary primarily seeing the word "servant" in Rom. 16:1 as an attendant, one who runs errands, a waiter.

Stephen was so called, and Philip, they did not just serve tables, they taught.  The Greek word translated 'succour' is "prostatis" which according to Thayer's Greek Definitions also means "A woman set over others."   How can she be set over others and still be their waiter running errands?

The words used were specifically 'Adam' and 'Eve', not 'husband' and 'wife' - they were not used interchangeably.

I'm talking about Gunee and andros used for wife or woman and husband/man.

As can be shown from all these, it's either way.  The discussion has been going on for a long time and may not cease until Jesus comes.  Let us then as men and women serve God in whichever capacity He puts us.  Let it not be traditions of men that limit us in our service of the Master, the only One to whom we shall be accountable at that day.

Love and blessings to all.

NB. All I have shown is from the Word.  Do you ask for my own personal opinion?

OK. I'm back.

Continuing from where I stopped:

1 Cor 3:5 (KJV)

Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Ephe 1:7

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

The word translated minister here is the same word used for Phoebe in Rom 16:1- The word 'diakonon'.  Strong's Greek Dictionary reference for 'diakonon' gives it's meaning as

'specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess) -- deacon, minister, servant.'.

I repeat, Phoebe ministered or taught like the others called deacons like Stephen etc.

the point still remains that he calls Andronicus and Junia his kinsmen.

The greek word translated 'kinsmen' also translates as relative, tribesmen etc.  Just like manking doesn't refer to man only.

@Shahan

I flow with your reasoning, but why won't the rendition of those words be husband and wife under the context they were used, seeing the words were used interchangeably for them?

Lol, how you push that idea is not substantiated even in Scripture. A woman doesn't have to be a wife before she can bear children.

If a woman bears a children and she is not a wife, then the child is a bastard.  The scripture does not recommend that and certainly Paul wouldn't have supported what the scripture calls sin.

Every culture presents the same dangers, and there was not a place where the apostles ministered where they didn't face these dangers. Now, if you agree that the epistle recognizes Timothy as a pastor of the church at Ephesus, how do you defend the idea that Paul was instructing him on issues about the home?

There are many instructions passed to Timothy and Titus, both Bishops actually because they oversee a group of churches, that touched on home issues, because homes and individuals make a church and not a building.

Folks, well done and thanks for the compliment. I see this discussion not as argument but as study. I am also learning. In fact, it has made me to consider a lot this past few days, but the evidences cannot just be wished away. I hope you are learning too so that we can all be thoroughly furnished.

@mihai

Nympha was a woman. It's a feminine name, just like Junia. The same argument against Junia is being used against Nympha, depending on the rendition of the Greek words and where the accent is placed. Four Bible translations, (The New American Standard, The New American Standard Update, The New International Version, and the Revised Standard Version ) all called her a woman. Check the references. Also the word translated 'his' in KJV was translated 'her' in the others.

Priscilla in the references was mentioned first more than her husband. Please check them. I did say, she seems to be more prominent than her husband.

Phoebe was a deacon. The word translated servant is 'diakonon' which means minister. Check Strong's Greek Dictionary to confirm. The same word was used by Paul to severally refer to himself as a minister in I Cor. 3:5. and Ephesians 3:7.

I will be back. I'm actually in a hurry.

Thanks Shahan I had a wonderful weekend and you?

Now to further this discussion, Shahan, TV01 and all, let's consider the following, like the Berean Christians did so that we can edify ourselves and hold on to the truth.  

1 Tim 2 vs 12 (KJV, since YLT seems to be contentious!!)

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Shahan requested for a Greek lexicon.  The words translated woman and man are (from Strong's Greek-Hebrew Dictionary):

Gunee- meaning wife or woman; e.g. translated wife in I Cor. 7:3 and 27

Andros-meaning husband or man; e.g. translated husband in Luke 2:36

Please confirm if there is anything contrary.  The usage of both words in this chapter points more to that of a wife and husband as the basic use.  Moreso, if you follow with the next verses 13-15, refering to Adam and Eve, and then childbearing.  Please note, it is a wife that is associated with childbearing, not just every woman.

The words suffer not or not allowing are

ouk- meaning not
epitrepoo - meaning I am allowing

In essense, the words 'I am not allowing' is a present indicative tense that means he is not presently allowing.

But you may ask why?  That brings us again to the context in which this instruction was passed.  Remember that Timothy was the pastor of the church at Ephesus, to whom Paul wrote this book -1 Tim 1 vs 3.  He put Timothy in charge to properly instruct the young church at Ephesus against myths and false doctrines, where Paul was almost killed by preaching against their goddess.

The people of Ephesus were neck-deep in the Artemis worship of the goddess Diana. Women were very prominent in the Artemis religion, Diana being their female goddess of fertility and birth.  Part of the issues at stake in Ephesus was female superiority, dominance and insurbordination, all stemming from pagan worship of Diana, including the false doctines, part of which is that Diana is the one that delivers from childbearing.  This was the background at Ephesus.  And this explains why he was not allowing such myths to be carried into the church.
Not that Paul was commanding women everywhere not to speak!  

There are enough examples of women in the New Testament church (I don't want to go into those in the Old Testament) even commended by Paul himself.  Or was he contradicting himself?  These were women that taught and preached in the church, contrary to what you wrote.  Here is a list of them

Priscilla- She taught and pastored.  She appeared to be more prominent than her husband.  More often, she was mentioned first. See Acts 18:2,18,26; 1 Cor. 16:19; and Romans 16:3.  This should also answer TV01 in:

To avoid just that we now have the hypocritical wife as "co-pastor " arrangement. Whereby to avoid a woman taking authority over her own husband she is made a pastor. Over other men, but not over her own husband. Again, plain convoluted

Priscilla and her husband Aquila co-pastored a church in their house!  She even taught Apollos!!  Note that there were churches in houses, comprising both men and women, in the early church.

Phoebe- was a deacon-  greek 'diakonon' translated minister or servant. See Romans 16:1.  She ministered.

Junia- was an outstanding Apostle, even with Paul's high standard!  That should jostle you. Roman 16:7.  She was an Apostle of the church, in Christ even before Paul, according to Paul's testimony.  Now tell me what does apostle do?

Nympha- pastored a church in her house in Laodicea. She was the only leader mentioned by name there.  See Col. 4:15.

There were more in the early church, but these should suffice.  Yes, they were not as many as the men, but they were teaching as leaders all the same.  The same Paul commended all these.  How could he have done that if he meant they should not teach in church when they were all teaching, some alongside him in his missions?

Bless y'all.

NB:  Some scholars actually dispute the gender of Junia, the Apostle, for obvious reasons.  However, from studies, it's more likely a woman, Junia being a common feminine name of the 1st century, mentioned with Andronicus, likely to be her husband or brother.

Folks, I went off for the weekend.  Now I'm back.

@Ishmael

Yes, but Christ later decided to change his mind. It was much later after his resurrection that he gave Apostle Paul that instruction that women should keep their mouth silent in churches.

To suggest Christ later changed his mind on a commandment he gave his disciples (male and female) later would be stretching it too far!  Watch it, brother.  He is the same yesterday, today and forever Heb. 13 vs 8.

@Shahan

I'm not advocating feminism, neither am I saying women should not be submissive to their own husbands and defer to them in authority.  The scripture is clear.  But that is as far as authority goes.  All women cannot submit to all men.  I can't find any scripture that supports that.  Rather, everyone, male and female, should submit to higher authority (Heb 13:17).

(d) there is definitely a distinction made between the sexes in service

Please support yourself with the relevant scriptures that show gender distinctions in service.

Rom. 12:4 - "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office."

I agree wholeheartedly, but not in a gender sense.  Notice it says all members.  Simply put, we don't all have the same office.  Some are pastors, others prophets, some evangelists etc.  This is talking about disctinction in office and not in gender.

I Cor. 14:34 - "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

I Cor. 14:37 - "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."

Please refer to my earlier posts on this.  It's addressing the problems and issues in the context having in mind the nature of the Corinthian church.  If the women keep silence in church, then by implication, they should not even prophesy or sing in church.

There is clearly a difference made in the various kinds of speaking roles - as in prophesying, teaching, exhorting, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues. Not all are the same; and especially so, the Word shows us that a woman is not to be a teacher in the setting of the Church.

Agreed, the gifts (or speaking roles as you call it) are not the same.  I did not infer that.  There are clear differences between them, but I have not seen where the Holy Spirit says He cannot distribute to women as He wills.

Let's apply a bit of common sense here. If the case in I Tim. 2:12 was simply about a home setting, what's the rational behind the thought that a woman ought not to teach her husband (according to YLT), but as long as she has "the anointing" then she can teach in the church??

Don't let us misinterpret scriptures.  This verse adressed the usurping of authority.  Don't take one and leave the other.  The final decision making rests with the husband as the head and a wife should submit to that headship.  However, not that the man should lord it over, nor the woman usurp that authority.  Both are equally condemned in scriptures.

I'm not reasoning based on tradition or feelings but on what the word says.  If you ask my own opinion that's a separate issue.  Let's leave the work of the Holy Spirit to Him to do.  He distributes as He wills.  Or are you saying He doesn't give women gifts as teachers?

@trini-girl

ope mi I disagree with you, woman was created from a rib of the man.  The man has authority over the woman and we are by no means equal.  God created us as a companion for him.

I guess you meant the husband has authority over his own wife.

Thanks Shahan for the study so far, so that we can all learn. Please note I'm not pointing accusing fingers at the Corinthina church, I'm only stating from what I studied of them.

True, 1 Tim 2 11-12 can be extended to other areas but it's primarily talking about a woman and a man in the sense of a wife's submission to her husband, hence the Adam and Eve example and reference to child-bearing.

Now this is where I am really going.

The Holy Ghost, who is the Chief Administrator of the Church of the New Testament, is no respecter of persons, whether Jew nor Greek, male nor female.

Galatians 3:
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Long before the advent of the church, He prophesied about the church through Joel

Joel 2:
28 “It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.

29 “Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

This started manifesting at the day of Pentecost, when they all gathered, both men and women in the Upper Room at Jerusalem, awaiting the promise of the Lord.  

Acts 1
13 When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.

14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Note that both men and women were gathered and the Holy Ghost came upon all of them and Peter had to stand up to explain what was happening by referring them to Joel:

Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.

15 “For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;

16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17 ‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says, etc

It is the same Holy Ghost that gave us ministry gifts in the church as in apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.  He does not discriminate.  He does as He wills to all persons, male and female.

Now, if He is the One at work, why will He give some women as Teachers but will not allow them to teach, whether in or outside the church?  Why will he give some as Pastors but will prevent them from functioning in that same office?  Or are there not women who He gave as Evangelists?  If He so anoints some women as He wills, who are we to frustrate the grace of God upon their lives?  If the Holy Ghost can anoint them to sing and prophesy, why won’t He anoint them also to teach or pastor in a church?

I cor 12
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.

6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;

9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

Ephesians 4
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Finally, my brethren, Our Lord Jesus, the author and finisher or our faith, gave a commandment to all, both male and female, at Galilee after the resurrection, to go preach to all nations and make them disciples (verse 19) and teach the disciples made (verse 20).  This charge is to all that believe, both men and women!

Matt. 28
19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

God bless us all in His service, both men and women!

Very well then, I'm heading somewhere.  Please be patient.

A woman, from the scriptures you've cited and many more, can and should prophesy, sing or teach in church.  The scriptures you've been using in 1 Cor. 14:34 and 1 Tim. 2:11-12 should be balanced with other scriptures so as not to teach out of context.  This is how doctrines and principles of Christ are established.

Let's examine them properly.

1 Cor. 14:34

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

If you take this as it is, then women should not even say anything in church, not by prophesying nor singing!  But that will be contrary to what Paul was addressing in that scripture.  If you read a little downward, you will read further that

37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.

38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

Note verse 40 very well.  That is the crux of the matter Paul was addressing in much of his epistle to the Corinthians, and by extension any such church with their characteristics.  The church (group of churches actually) at Corinth was a very carnal church.  They manifest the gifts of the spirit but they had issues!  Promiscuity, rowdiness, disorderliness, selfisheness, disobedience to their husbands and higher authority, etc.  Some posts addressed some already.  It is in that church that everyone wants to speak in tongues or prophesy at the same time!  People were sleeping with their father's wife and all still come to prophesy in Corinth Church!

To set things in order, Paul as the Apostle had to reprimand them, especially their rowdiness and disorderliness even in church, especially among their women.

1 Tim. 2:11-12 (Young Literal Translation)

11 Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection,

12 and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,

13 for Adam was first formed, then Eve,

14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came,

15 and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

This particular reference (as made clear in this translation) was not even talking about worship in church!  It's a home setting, which is also in sync with the rest of the scriptures about meekness and submission.  Note the immediate refrence to Adam and Eve.  Verse 15 especially is quite revealing, talking about the curse that came upon the woman in child bearing as a result of the fall in the Garden of Eden.  Note my emphasis on the 'they' that is the husband and the wife.

One thing of note is Paul's distinction when he speaks and when the Lord speaks.  In this very instance, it's very clear who was speaking- Paul, notice his use of 'I' in verse 12.  Some translations put it as 'In my opinion'.

Are you still with me?

@ Shahan,

If I understand you very well, a woman can prophesy in church and she can also sing in church.  In other words she can deliver God's message to edify or instruct in church (which is to prophesy) and she can also use the avenue of songs to teach God's word?

@Shahan and all,

I have followed this discourse with keen interest. Please I need your honest biblical answers to these questions as it will help in understanding the mind of God better on this issue and not just the letter of the Word:

1. Should women sing in churches? and
2. Should they prophesy in churches?

I'm waiting for your responses.

Bless y'all.

If you are so sure this is not a scam, let him open a new account, ensure there is zero balance in the account, then forward the details of the account to them. When the money is transfered and cashed, close the account. Simple!

Thanks Buluti and God bless.

Any one that loves this country and yearns to see it develop will see through the scams and frauds going on.  It's a shame that mega funds (including foreign aids) are being wasted without any meaningful progress.

Are you surprised that all those people all approved the 'results' of the census?  Check the names Gowon, Shagari, IBB, Abdusalami, Buhari- all notherners.  And OBJ, Shonekan, their cronies!  I'm detribalised, but it's plain to see why they will see nothing wrong in a census that puts Kano ahead of Lagos (which UN put at 10.9million as of 1996!)  And the governors?  They don't have a choice, except you want EFCC to go after them.  The PDP convention and some 'golden' aspirants are still fresh in their minds!  Anyway you look at it, it favours the North, politically and financially.  Don't forget that  allocation from the federation account to the states still take population as a parameter.

I can tell the next scene on the script.  Just write it down-  The 2007 (s)elections.  Now that the figures are out, the election figures will follow the same line, with 'more' votes coming from the North just to make sure the anointed one from the North gets there (I don't have anything against the North).  It's all been scripted before now.  If not tell me why a government in it's right senses will organise a census, as divisive as it is in Nigeria, close to election year and in the middle of a crisis in Niger Delta, an area in the south (I'm not from the south-south).  It's simply to give credence to the planed (s)election.

We need to pray!

All,

May I now refer us back to my earlier post on this topic written 5 days ago:

The only recourse we have is to rely on census figures, with its attendant peculiar problems given the country called Nigeria.  How reliable then is this our last census?  I can tell you that more than 40% (to understimate!) of the population wasn't counted due to shortage of personnel, materials and logistics.  Ask anyone living in Nigeria!  Most people I know living in different places were not counted.  There was disorder in most places on the last day of the exercise when people have to resort to bribing the officials to come to their houses to be counted!!  Even phone-in programs during the period could attest to that.  People kept making calls and giving descriptions to areas that have not been counted- and one couldn't but wonder which areas were counted!

Do we trust the figures then and how did they arrive at such figure of 140million in a headcount where many were not counted?  What happened to the Niger Delta area that officials could not venture to go because the census happened in the thick of the crisis?  Do we have figures for them too?

God save Nigeria!

I said it that the results are not to be trusted.  It's the same as everything associated with this present government.  It's all a charade!  From the (s)elections in 1999 and 2003, to the National ID card scam, voters registrations, phoney projects, useless reforms that impart negatively on the masses, etc.  We can't get the basic, simplest things right.  It's all the same! Cry, the beloved country!

@Nigeriaone,

Just like a doctor uses X RAY PICTURE to tell information about your body,  Engineers and those in the science field can tell so much information from satellite picture,   If you were in this field you would not argue with me,

Now which field are you, and same question to donzman, Account or igbo history or bible knowledge or english or yoruba history or economics or Islamic study, na joke, you obviously not in sciences that why?

There you go again!  X-RAY goes through your skin to show internal bony structures and diseases in soft tissues inside your body.  But satellite images don't tell you how many people live inside a building.  Yes, you can gather so much information from an image, but not what goes on inside the structures captured.  To get those, you have to go beyond satellite images.  I read Computer Science (Diploma) and Computer Engineering (Degree) and work in Digital Mapping & Geo-database management utilising satellite images from remote sensing, data from Computer Aided Design (CAD) and Geographic Information System (GIS) on a daily basis in a company at the cutting edge of the technology.  This is my turf. So please stop arguing this point!

Cheers.

Nigeriaone,

There is no way satellite imageries alone can determine population of a place.  They are what they are- images taken by satellites.  It’s the same way a picture of a house cannot tell you how many people live inside.  Please don’t let us misinform here.  They are useful tools that can aid in spatial analysis and make planning and mapping easier when used in conjunction with others like geographic information system (GIS).

Your argument about Onitsha and Ore is rather flawed.  Even though the two towns maybe about the same in area using your satellite images, that doesn’t mean the population will be about the same.  If you use 3D visualization tools for the satellite images of both, you will discover that Onitsha is mostly made up of houses that are at least 3 storeys while Ore’s are mostly bungalows.  This should tell you which one has more population, assuming you’ve not been to both towns (Note I'm not Ibo!).

There are a lot of things you consider when interpreting such images for demographic purposes.  For example, you don’t expect the population of a GRA to be the same as a densely populated area, even with the same land area and number of houses, taking into consideration the two different classes of people in question.  While a duplex in GRA may house 8 people, the same size of building downtown may house at least 50.  An industial area of a city may have zero number of people living there, but a satellite image will still show you as buildings, which may not be distinguished from those in residential areas!  You will need additional information, which is not available from the image, to be able to do that.  I can go on and on.

Cheers all.

All,

Census is not what a country does all the time.  Usually it's done within an interval, say 15 years.  What any progressive nation does is to plan and have an organised way of keeping accurate records, such as birth, death, immigration etc., which can then be used for demographic purposes.  If this is properly done, within acceptable margin of accuracy, such figures are used for national planning.  This should also tally, more or less, with the census figures, if or when it's eventually done.

In organised economies, census don't happen just like that.  I can't remember the last time countries like the U.S. shut down the whole nation for 2 weeks because of head-count!  It is sheer waste of every resource you can imagine.  But in own dear native land, where we don't even have proper birth records, no mortality records, immigration is in shambles, in the midst of corruption where just about anyone can bribe their ways in/out of the country, where deaths are not accounted for nor even recorded etc., how then do we go about planning?

The only recourse we have is to rely on census figures, with its attendant peculiar problems given the country called Nigeria.  How reliable then is this our last census?  I can tell you that more than 40% (to understimate!) of the population wasn't counted due to shortage of personnel, materials and logistics.  Ask anyone living in Nigeria!  Most people I know living in different places were not counted.  There was disorder in most places on the last day of the exercise when people have to resort to bribing the officials to come to their houses to be counted!!  Even phone-in programs during the period could attest to that.  People kept making calls and giving descriptions to areas that have not been counted- and one couldn't but wonder which areas were counted!

Do we trust the figures then and how did they arrive at such figure of 140million in a headcount where many were not counted?  What happened to the Niger Delta area that officials could not venture to go because the census happened in the thick of the crisis?  Do we have figures for them too?

God save Nigeria!

Not exactly Seun.  You can patent an idea, if that idea is a new and useful process or an improvement of a process, under a type of patents called utility patents.  Check these: http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/patent/patentFULL.html or http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html

@ronkebaby,

Yes, as a christian you have to submit to the will of God, even above your own, in all circumstances, marriage and courtship inclusive.  The problem is that many don't know what is the will of God, even our christian leaders and teachers.  If you really solely on your senses, you will miss it in most things of life. 

This is how it is.  He did not remove your senses from you when you gave your life to Him, rather He enhanced it by His written will and the Holy Spirit to be led by.  Remember, as many as are led by the spirit of God they are the sons (and daughters) of God.  We are to ratify the decisions of our senses by His Will.  Mostly our senses may decieve us, that is why we should grow in Him and renew our minds by His word, so that we grow more and more sensitive to him every passing day.  This way, if you are wrong with your senses, you will have a witness within you, correcting and directing you.

In my case I would have missed it if I had relied solely on my senses to direct me.  I had someone entirely in mind but was not convinced by the Witness within me.  All these while the lady was not even aware.  However, when I 'found' my wife and was convinced within me, I prayed God will convince her too.  You know all the spiritual works!  But it didn't end there, which is where many miss it.  I didn't scare her with 'God said' and 'The Holy Spirit said' stuff!  I allowed some friendship and love to develop, and told her simply that I love her and will like to spend the rest of my life with her.  I proposed marriage to her.  She accepted after a while and our courship started.

Are we the same people? No.  But we loved each other and worked out and still working out our differences.  We have a lifetime to do that, you know!  We didn't pretend nor deceive.  I was me and she was she.

I am sure you can still enjoy yours very much!  Work at it.  Feeling is not love, and it does change.  But love is patient and bears all.  Make up your mind you will give all.  You can do it.  You can make it.  A garden left untendered will grow bushy.  Cultivate it, nourish and nurture it.  I pray you find joy and fulfilment, sister.  May God blend you two and inject some freshness and radiance into your home.  Amen.

Sorry I'm preachy.  My heart just flows to you as I type.

Cheers.

@exu, this is exactly what the writers you read have been doing, trying to prove the non-existence!

@olabowale, I didn't use Muhammad to justify the existence of Jesus.  For goodness sake, Muhammad lived 570 years after Jesus!  For comparison sake, it's like someone living today trying to tell us who Shakespare was and how he lived 442 years ago!  Will you rather believe him more than the account of Shakespare's contemporaries and friends that ate with him and travelled with him?  Islam merely tried to acknowledge the historicity and existence of Jesus, but deny the divinity, thereby giving rise to a Isa who is different from the real Jesus.  What a contradiction and deception!

In fact the beauty of it all, which you said as well, is that the Bible was not written by one man.  The writers were many and varied as you could have them,  some were kings, some servants, some prophets, some fishermen, some lived thousands of years from each other, but all agreed on the divinity of Christ.  This is to tell you that there was the same Divine Author who worked through them all through the ages and hence the consistency.

The Word of God, who is God Himself, is the One that came in the form of man as Jesus, the saviour of the world.  So He was Son of man and Son of God, while he walked the earth.  He has always existed even before the creation of the world, because He created all things.  Please check the many references above an the ones below:

Colosians 2:9
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John Chapter 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.


These were written by 3 different people!  Won't you believe in this good news-  That Jesus came to offer himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the world, including yours and mine.  All you require is to accept and believe he did- Really, that's all!  He will then give you the right to become his child, check vs. 12 above.  I pray you do.

Here I rest my case.  Love you all.

All,

So much for the existence of Jesus or not.  He lived and is still living!  That you believe this or not doesn't change the fact. Shall we go back to what this thread is all about:  Is Jesus God?  Yes He is!

Just to add to what Khamelion and DayoD posted above, may I also add these:

He said so himself

John10:
30 I and my Father are one

He used the revered name of God (I AM) for himself

John 8:
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The religious institution could not take it (just like some on this forum!)

John 10:
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

God called him God

Hebrews1:8
8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

David acknowledged it

Psalm 110:1
1. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

He is worshipped as God

Hebrews 1:6
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

John 20:28-29
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Phillipians 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross

How come the same Muhammed spoke so glowingly of Jesus if he did not exist? Was he also deceived by the 'angel Jubril'? But you believed what he said about Jesus, even at least 570 years after Jesus but couldn't believe accounts of eyewitnesses and people that lived less than 10 years after!

If you search the right places without prejudice, you will definitely see the historical accounts of Jesus. I just typed "historical account of Jesus" on Google and the very first of the search brought up what is below and you have been searching your entire life?

Non biblical accounts of
New Testament events and/or people

Following is a list of extra biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc. The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2

"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness."

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus. For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.

"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done."

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2

Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii. But as for the high priest, Ananias (25) he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money

Acts 23:2, "And the high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him [Paul] on the mouth."

Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "christus" who is Jesus - Annals 15.44

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

Ref. from http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.mb.txt

Thallus Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun.

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."

Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion? Luke 23:44-45, "And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two."

The oddity is that Jesus' crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus' mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus' crucifixion. It may not have been.

Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante–Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.

"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."

Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

The Talmud

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"

Gal. 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."

Luke 22:1, "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people."

This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11–13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Though Lucian opposed Christianity, he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.

@exu,

You will do well to read what others think about the same writings and about Josephus' reference to James the brother of Jesus before making your post. I don't expect all scholars to agree. They never have on any one topic under the sun! Consider also the other witnesses too many to ignore. At least you are beginning to re-examine your stand. Please continue and may Christ give you light.

Cheers.

@exu,

It will be an insult to the name of Jesus if I had used Josephus as a validation of His existence.  I merely made reference to his writings and what he wrote about Jesus since he is not a disciple nor a Christian.  He had no reason to lie about someone he didn't believe in anyway.

What is your definition of a long time in historical accounts?  And what forms the basis of authenticity of a historical artefact?  No scholar/historian worth his name will call someone's account less than 50 years long.  Josephus lived less than 4 years after Jesus.  Some of the writers of the new testament were his contemporaries that lived during his time.  They wrote independently and they all agreed.  These were all eyewitnesses accounts!  You can't fault that in history.

What's more?  Thousands and hundreds of years before he was born, there were prophecies concerning his birth, life and death by different people that lived at different times.

After his death and resurrection, people wrote about him.  If all these were one huge joke, don't you think it would have been stopped by the Roman authorities and posterity.  Farces never survive for long.  There have been many after and they didn't survive.

Lastly on this my friends, his disciples were different characters of people from different backgrounds.  They only stayed with him 3 odd years.  They were disenchanted when he was killed and were in hiding.  But events after gave them boldness and they all came out of their hiding to testify of what they had seen and heard, despite heavy opposition and torture by the Roman Empire.  They were adults that couldn't be deceived or bribed because they had seen and heard and were convinced.

It wasn't easy living in the age they did, proclaiming the saving power of a Saviour.  They were sawn into two, fed to lions, crucified, burnt alive etc because they couldn't deny the One who came to die for them.  Such was the power of conviction and the integrity of these men and women that horrible death meant nothing to them!  These handful number spread the word of what happened.  This is the gospel!

Tell me will you die for someone who did not exist?  Will you leave your profession to follow some fables that meant death for the adherents?  Will you lose everything you had worked for when you knew you were defending a falsehood?  Will you allow your children to be used to feed dangerous animals in a Roman amphitheatre because you won't deny someone that didn't exist? I don't think so!

God bless you all.

@ronkebaby,

I respect your opinion about Christian Courtship/Engagement. However, that you were involved in one that didn't work doesn't mean that is how it is with everybody. Yes, there are misconceptions and deceit, I can tell you there are also genuine ones.

I happened to be involved in a christian courtship that worked- from beginning to the end. And it wasn't all about spiritual- we prayed, studied, played, quarelled, made-up, and all. We had so much fun that we became inseparable two to the admiration of many. We worked at it to make it so. Many did not give us a chance but I'm proud to say we will soon celebrate 6 years of marriage!

[I'm sorry if I Sounded harsh at first.]

@Reverend,

The gospel story is an artificial, non-historical work. It has been fabricated from source materials that can be identified and traced to their incorporation into the gospels. There is not a particle of hard evidence that 'Jesus of Nazareth' ever existed.

Your statement above is so untrue!  Jesus of Nazareth did exist and still exits!  There are enough historical accounts that corroborates this.  I will try and give a few.

Flavius Josephus

He was a Jewish scholar, comentator and historian that lived in the first century (37-100 AD).  It is interesting to note that he was not a disciple of Jesus nor a christian.  He recorded the life of Jesus as a historical figure that lived in Palestine, just a few years before him.  His (Josephus') many works are well recorded and published.  Google him and confirm for yourself.  However let me quote some things this historian wrote about Jesus (http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm and http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-20.htm).

In his book Antiquities of the Jews (written 93 AD), Book 18 Chapter 3 Section 3, Josephus wrote:

About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.

In Book 20 Chapter 9 Section 1, he wrote:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions];

If Jesus did not exist, how come there were historical references to his existence by a man that had no allegiance to him.  Is this just a coincidence?

Contemporaries of Jesus

The historical Jesus lived during the Roman Empire, in a region and city that have named Emperor, Governor, King, High Priest ect who others, including Josephus, also made mention of.  What do you make of Augustus Ceaser, Pontius Pilate, King Agrippa, Herod the Great etc whose reigns are documented.  Remember Pilate signed his execution!

What of his siblings of which James (mentioned by Josephus above) is one?  Would you know that they didn't even believe him until he died and resurrected.  This same James later wrote a book (included in the bible).

Luke, who wrote the same book of his name and Acts of the Apostles) was a historian who had been credited by historians of careful record.  Check what he wrote of Jesus.  There were other contemporaries who wrote about him.  The bible contains some of these compilations by John, Paul etc.  Are you saying all these are fictional writers?

Occurences during his life

There was a census during the reign of Ceasar Augustus and governor Quirinious of Syria.  This was during which Jesus was born.  Joseph and Mary had to go to their region to be taxed and counted.  (check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius)  This was a historical fact.

There was a date of his crucifixion that occured around the feast of passover in Jerusalem Friday 14 in the month of Nissan).  There was a landslide (earthquake) around this time.  This is historical.

Dates

What do you say about existence of a man who was so significant that history records dates from his birth using AD (Anno Domini)?  Is this also a farce?

I could go on and on, but these should be sufficient.  The fact is Jesus did walked on this planet earth.  Reverend, won't you believe?

Not exactly my dear exu. Yes, beyond all human understanding and imagination, but not pointless! The things that are beyond understanding do govern the tangible things. The fact that you don't seem to understand it doesn't render it altogether pointless. God is certainly beyond natural understanding and human comprehension. That is why He is supernatural!

Get my drift?

All,

Sure there is no controversy about this one.  Jesus is the very God, the mighty God.  A lot of things in the scriptures don't make sense nor follow logic!  So, if you are looking for logic to prove this one, you miss it.  You talk of logic and sense when the topic is science or philosophy, not God!!!  The reason?

Reason No. 1: It is a mystery!  

1 Timothy 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Reason No. 2:  It sounds foolish!

1 Corinthians 1:

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The is the reason you talk of belief and faith when the topic is about spiritual things.  It is beyond the senses.  I will cite some references that show Jesus is God manifested in the form of man, but it's left to you to believe what you read.

I will be back.