₦airaland Forum

@debbieolat and funketobi,

I have a somewhat different advice!  From your post, Tunde is ready to wait till you graduate before getting married.  So why don't you wait some more before telling your dad about Tunde, since you have a strict dad?  This is not trying to hide him.  I won't advise you to be rude to your dad at this stage.  It's just not necessary.

Rather, go ahead and develop your relationship with Tunde.  There are lots of healthy things you two could do at this stage of your relationship that telling dad should not even bother you yet, regardless of what mum thinks.  Learn more about each other, go for counsellings together, concentrate on your studies, have the best of courtship, bond together and prepare for your marriage!

Remember dad still pays your school fees.  What is the point of grieving him now?  Most dads are very possessive (and maybe jealous) of their daughters, including me!!  Also, he feels you are still young and will rather prefer you to concentrate on your studies right now and not telling him about an engagement.

I have a father-in-law like that!  Guess what?  He was the last to know me, and that was after every one in my wife's family have already met me.  I met him very close to the Introduction ceremony!!  At that point, he was too elated to meet me!  Meanwhile we started the relationship when I was 21 and the daughter 19!!!  What do you think would have been his reaction if his daughter had introduced me then?

Wisdom is profitable to direct!

Cheers and have a wonderful time.

All,

This thread happened to be one of the very best on Nairaland! It's such a rollercoaster of emotions from joy to sorrow. My heart to all who have lost dear ones. Take courage and forge on. To the single who desires to marry, yes, you can be happily married. And to those who have shared their stories, well done. It's been such an experience reading your stories. To the new person to this thread, endeavour to read all the posts from the beginning. It's well worth the time spent.

I'm trying to take up the challenge and post my own little experience too.

Blessings to all.

@feelgood,

Thanks for the compliment. I'm with you on those beautiful posts of yours that expanded mine.

Cheers.

@adeniyi1st, I just stumbled on this thread today and I am happy you took to the advice of windywendy. She did justice to the issue. Keep it up, sister. I'm happy you have a happy home now.

Let me respond to some aspects as we all are still learning everyday. The way you take and treat your wife is the way people will treat her. Or let me turn that around. Don't expect people, be it family or friend, to treat your wife more highly than you do! Even when you have misunderstanding with her, keep it to the two of you and learn to resolve issues with her without putting her down before any one. This will earn you respect from her than words of correction.

As a Yoruba man like you, and I know it happens in other African cultures, I know what you mean by saying your wife expects your brother to wash his plates. Brothers-in-law could be very difficult, especially the grown-ups. You know how I handled that issue? Once I knew my brother was doing that, immediately after meals, I simply gathered the plates to the kitchen and started washing them myself (note, there is nothing unmanly in washing plates as a husband, I still do from time to time)! Your guess is as good as mine. He got up to collect them from me. That sent the message, and settled that. Try it, it works!

You are the man, set the example! Work on yourself the more. I've come to discover that it's really easy to please a wife. Just love her and spoil her with affection, let her have a self-esteem and you will find out that respect flows naturally from her!

Have a great home!

@Seun, you are so right here:

The surname I bear is not even mine - afterall, I did not coin it - so this is not a big deal.  However, it can be troublesome to deal with third parties who are surprised that your wife doesn't share your surname.  So if the husband's surname is not good, perhaps the husband and wife can agree on a new name to share?

That was exactly what we did.  Not that my wife did not bear my former surname, but we decided to change the surname to something more positive than it was.  The old one has something to do with 'Ifa' (an oracle), while the new one has 'Olu' (The Lord) as the prefix to reflect our faith.  After all, I did not coin the former one, like you said!

All,

Thanks to Bolarge for his post.  Just to add my voice.  The truth is that Dating and Courtship are not the same thing!  That is why it is difficult for a christian to date, according to Chidebe, because many confuse the two.  The focus of the two are not the same.

While dating is a social appointment, engagement, or occasion arranged beforehand with another person, courtship on the other hand is seeking the affection of a partner with the intention of marriage.  The difference lies with the intention of marriage.  Dating is not specific to a partner, since that intention is not there and there is no commitment involved.  Dating is done with as many people as possible.  There is nothing wrong so long as there is no motive behind it and done with christian brotherly love.  You can use it to make friends.

But when you are in courtship with someone, the two of you agree to court and make commitment with each other, in short you are engaged to one another, with the intention of marrying.  This is what you will find in the scriptures.  This is the christian way, and there are guidelines of going about it.  It is such a wonderful period that leads to marriage.

If it is your intention to be in courtship, then don't do it the way it was done before you became a christian.  It won't work.  They are two different kingdoms with two different lifestyles.  For more on this, read this article by a Christian counsellor on Dating and Courtship.

Be blessed.

Nightfall,

Since you asked if you should cheat on your wife, I will advice you don't.  Not that you need my permision anyway.  But take my brotherly advice, DON'T DO IT!  Not just that, PLEASE stop comparing her and your wife.  It's pointless.

Tell me, what does she physically have that your wife doesn't?  And stop dwelling on the issue too.  The more you do, the more your mind gets imprinted with the thought before it translates into the actual act, the end of which I'm sure you don't want.  It is never a sin to be tempted, but woe to the man that falls into temptation!

Remove her image from your mind, think about your lovely wife instead- spend time with her, build your relationship with your wife.  This other lady will only bring you fleeting pleasure, then guilt, and after heartache, disappointment, maybe STD or HIV, maybe separation or divorce, and the vicious cycle continues.   Ask yourself, is it worth all these, and does your wife deserve it?

Think twice, friend and be wise!

Great Ife!

Of course there can be only one great Ife in the universe. Another one is a counterfeit.

@sojiboy, you will probably stay in Angola Hall (officially, that is). Come to think of it, I've always thought that is the best hall for a fresher to stay. It is the hall for freshers. You'll get information faster and meet fellow Jambitos, solve common problems etc.

Welcome to Great Ife!

Exercises are excellent ways of losing weight.  They have the added advantage of keeping you fit!

Check this out.

Happy weight-loss!

Owen1968,

Punishment inflicted by way of correction (that is, show me what I am doing wrong, correct me, show me the right way) and training.

Why did you talk about the correction and overlook the punishment?  I can't see anything like punishment in what you wrote.  I maintain there has to be appropriate punishment for you to discipline.

For every stage of a child's development, you must balance grace with truth and reality, love with discipline. Grace shows love, encouragement, empathy, affection while truth balances these with discipline, structure, limits, responsibility, consequences.  You can't tend to one side of the spectrum alone.  Grace without truth will raise kids that are loved but not responsible.  Truth without grace will raise kids that are obedient but detached and withdrawn.  Here lies the division between the two sides.

I have thus chosen to maintain the balance between the two in raising my kids.  I tell you, you can't love a child too much, but you can discipline not enough!  While you pour all the love upon a child, show them too that there are consequences for wrong actions.  As the choice is theirs to make, the consequence is yours to apply .  Punishment has to be painful, but not harmful.  There is a world of difference between the two.  The nature of the elements of grace and truth you apply from stage to stage of the development differs.  But the approach using the two should be maintained.

I never said I used beating as a cure to all.  I have always maintained using the cane sparingly and when it's necessary and appropriate for the offence.  Why would anyone want to assault anyone, talkless of a stranger?  Assault is a crime,  but training your child appropriately is never.

Since we don't seem to agree on this issue, can we then agree to disagree.  I respect your views and hope you can still sincerely say this same thing in 3 years time.  Likewise you have to respect my views too since it's producing desired results in my kids.  I have never seen perfect parents before, neither you nor I.  I have never seen perfect kids too, neither yours nor mine.  But I have seen great people of all ages.  I guess the reason we are so passionate about our different views is because we want to raise great, and not perfect, kids.  Right?  Shall we then as parents strive to achieve that as much as we can.  God help us all.

Love you all.

Owen1968, I expected you to complete the definitions by putting what discipline means too.  I will put it from the same source (www.dictionary.com) you used.

Discipline:
1. training to act in accordance with rules; drill: military discipline.  
2. activity, exercise, or a regimen that develops or improves a skill; training: A daily stint at the typewriter is excellent discipline for a writer.  
3. punishment inflicted by way of correction and training.
12. to punish or penalize in order to train and control; correct; chastise.

I maintain you can discipline by the use of cane, if you have to.  Two strokes of the cane to the butt is not violence!  Moreso, that is why you make sure the kid understands why you are doing it.  A 15 month old cannot.

I'm not a monster that will strike violently or forcefully and repeatedly to cause damage or abuse.  That is why I don't beat, I discipline.  Discipline is training, the use of the cane may come in as part of the process.

No, I did not say if you don't beat you are doomed.  You have every right to use whatever means you want (abuse not inclusive) to train your child.  But love must be balanced with discipline.  I will tell you what she was trying to tell me by being stubborn- 'I can have my way if only I insist'.  And I corrected that.  She learnt 1. she cannot always have her way 2. to honour and obey her parents 3. to respect higher authority.  Those are 3 points I would have lost on that scale!

I am careful not to violate the individuality and independent nature of my kids by giving them enough room to express that. But there must be boundaries, to the extent another principle is not broken in the course.  That is my duty as a parent while they are still in my care.

Cheers.

Two adults should never allow issues to degenerate into fighting in the first place. There are better ways of resolving issues than fighting. Discuss it maturely if either one is getting angry, simply quit the argument. Take a walk or something, and come back to discuss when you have calmed down. You are more objective when you are calm.

Having said that, don't ever argue in front of your kids. Adults should be adults. Send the kids away, make sure they are sleeping, or get away from them if you have issues to iron out. Kids learn a lot by observation. The picture of dad and mum fighting sticks, even when you are old.

Coco29, you beat me to that reply, but please don't punch them.  If you must flog them, use a cane and don't abuse it, and that should be after other means don't work and never do it when you are angry.  If they are grown-ups, you shouldn't flog.  Other methods will be much more effective.

Owen1968, why would you continue to beat someone who is obedient? To answer you, NO, I won't.  Notice I like using 'discipline'.  It is more positive than beating.  I will repeat what I said.  Life is in stages.  The type of discipline you give a  toddler is not the same with a teenager.  Even for kids the same age, approaches differ because no two kids are exactly the same, not even twins!

It will be the height of child abuse if you beat a 16 month old!  I have a 15 month old and I don't beat her.  But I still discipline her in her own little way using your approach, the same thing I did for the 4 year-old when she was her age.  I am proud to say I have happy children, well behaved and developed, never timid or afraid to express themselves, ever laughing and singing.  Mere hearing the sound of their dad's car coming home, you will think I've been away for months by the joyous welcome!  This happens everyday.

"When I was a child I spoke like a child, but when I grew up, I threw away childish things"  says Paul.  There is a time to scold and a time to apply a firmer approach.  The gravity and approach of the discipline is determined per stage.

God bless.

PS:  Please discipline using cane is not the same as violence. Maybe what I did not say was that that was not the first time my 4 year-old was doing that.  Sorry for the ommision.  It was extreme and I needed to act that night because it's been going on for some time.  She actually got lower marks before because she was bent on doing it her own way, not that she doesn't know how to write it well.  The other method did not work.  Right now, tell her to correct something and off she goes running and back corrected!  The point was not the number she couldn't write, but the number she refused to write- the disobedience.  Kids could be stubborn, sometimes, you know.

This smacks of a scam to me.  Be very careful how you offer to help 'her' out.  I doubt if it's actually a she.  It looks so much like a 419 story.  The mention of her father's wealth, she being the sole beneficiary and in a predicament and so, helpless, but having internet connection, and signing of bank papers!  Friend beware!!  These are tell-tale signs of 419.  It is all a script which you are already falling into.  The idea is to get either your sympathy or greed.  Once you get hooked, the plot will start unveiling.

Ultimately, if I can complete the story for the scammers, she will tell you to help her remove the remaining funds in her bank account to yours, but you have to supply your own details so she can inform her bank and all that.  God help you if you have money in that account!

How on earth will somebody kidnap someone and still give her internet access?  Not only that, She's soliciting for help but the kidnapper cannot find out her activities on the net?  For 6 years now, the family did not look for her nor alert the police of her disapperance?  Or is it that she doesn't have any other family member?  Where is her mum?

Or am I being too harsh here?  Someone prove me wrong! Or are you writing a movie script?

Seun, you don't have to be rude. Nobody is discussing religion nor forcing religion on anyone here. I was careful about that. In fact, I deliberately choose my replies, so as not to devalue the issue at hand. But in making a particular point, what's wrong in citing references that are apt? You either take it or leave it! I don't think I have offended anybody's sensibility or religiousity by doing that. I will be the first to apologise if I did.

There are certain things you have to experience to fully understand.  I do not support violence and abuse in any of it's ramifications, whether it is to a child or to an adult.  Inflicting injuries and beating a child like an animal is child abuse.  Neither should you discipline a child just for it's own sake.  I said as much in my post.  Anyone that does that does not deserve to be a parent. 

Cane is not what to use at every opportunity because you are stronger than the child.  It should be used with a purpose and sparingly.  If you condone certain things in kids, it sets bad precedence that will work negatively as the child develops.  Let us love and correct our children.  People can abuse anything.  That doesn't make that thing wrong in itself.  Abuse is ab[/b]normal [b]use of a thing.  Because people abuse the use of the internet, does that make it wrong?

While I don't expect everybody to agree with me, people should not shy away from certain truths.  I did say there are stages in life.  The way you correct a toddler is not the same way you correct a teenager.  There are different ways of approach, even between children of the same ages, because of individual differences and temperaments.  I challenge everyone that keeps saying their parents did not lay a cane on them to ask their parents.  They will tell you they did when you were much younger than you remembered!  But as you grew up, there was no need to use it again because the lessons of life they wanted you to learn were beginning to sink in.  I repeat, life is in stages.

Children are tender.  It is easier to correct them while they are in their formative years,  just like you tend to a young plant, prune it, bend it and nurture it till it can weather the storm on its own.  You do all that because you love the child.  The decadence we experince in every society today is because of failed values in our homes.  There should be boundaries and principles.  Kids are wont to break them.  The reason you are a parent is not just to sire kids.  Training them (not abusing) is part of your responsibility as a parent.  Don't let us shy away from it.

And who says the old testament alone talks of discipline of a child.  Have you not read that Jesus himself said:

"Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent." Revelation 3:19

Read this also:

Hebrews 12:5-11

5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
   My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,

6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?

8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!

10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.

11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

I purposely quoted Proverbs in my earlier post because this is a book largely written by the one called the wisest man on earth- Solomon.  If someone as wise as that is talking to you on an issue you just have to listen attentively!  He is talking out of experience.

To answer Seun, the 'manual' is not giving you an impression that it's ok to beat a child,  it's commanding you to train and discipline your child if you love them, and if you have to use, not abuse, a cane, please do it.  Also, without intending to digress, there are historical accounts in the bible that explained what happened (as in slavery).  That doesn't show God's approval of such things.  After all, haven't you read God delivering them from such?

On a final note, why would people refer to a TV manual when something is wrong with a TV, but when something is wrong with society and humans, we are afraid referring to the Owner's manual?  I just wonder!

Nairalanders,

Let's visit the Manufacturer's Manual on this issue.  I've tried to quote some relevant portions here.  There are many more.  Please read with open mind because this is straight from the manual:

[list]
[li]Train up a child in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22: 6[/li]

[li]Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Proverbs 22:15[/li]

[li]The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother shame. Proverbs 29: 15[/li]

[li]He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes. Proverbs 13: 24[/li]

[li]Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:13-14[/li]

[li]Children obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Ephesians 6:1[/li]

[li]And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Ephesians 6: 4[/li]

[li]Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.  Fathers, don't provoke your children, so that they won't be discouraged. Colosians 3: 20-21[/li]

[li]One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity. 1 Timothy 3:4[/li]
[/list]

Did you notice how balanced the above is?  As much as parents are charged to correct their kids, by flogging if needs be, they are not to provoke them.  This is because the reason for the flogging is not to punish or inflict injuries (which is wrong) but to discipline the child, to guide the child.  God holds parents accountable for their kids, for as long as they are still in your care.  Ask Eli (1 Samuel 12) and he will tell you better.

This is not to give a license for child abuse and other vices.  They are wrong.  But the truth remains you can't rule out the use of the cane.  There are certain situations you just have to apply it, in love.  God expects it.  If you leave the child to himself or society, you will lose him/her.

Life is in stages.  The kind of correction you give a toddler is not the same you give a teenager.  There are discipline styles that work differently with each development stage.  Thank God for time-outs and withdrawal of priviledges and all that.  You have to experience parenting to fully understand.  I speak as a parent.  There is a difference between childishness and naughtiness/stubborness.  You should not flog a child for behaving his/her age (childishness), you employ other types of discipline.  But there are outright stubborness and disobedience characteristic of kids that you have to deal with, lest the child go astray.  These kind respond only to canes.  Let me give you an example that happened recently.

I have a 4+ year old that's in Primary 1.  I happen to be a very loving dad she enjoys to be around.  We play and talk a lot.  So don't tell me I'm not a good parent.  She was given home-work to do.  She knew what to do and the mum guided her.  She did everything right except one particular figure 3 she prefers to write in her own wrong way.  This started around 5pm.  The mum stopped her favorite cartoon programme (talking about priviledges) so she could correct her mistake.  It didn't work.  Stopped her from going to her friends to play, tried to plead with her etc.  None worked.  She simply refused to correct the wrong figure.  The mum now called my attention about 2 hrs later.

As a friend of hers, I tried all I could to get my precious daughter re-write the number, she simply refused.  I stopped the session and gave her time to come back to it.  By 8 pm, my daughter was still adamant.  By this time, she han't even eaten her food and it was getting to her bedtime.  What do you call this and Seun what will you do?  Do you leave her and pet her on the back and bid her goodnight?  Of course, dad has to bring out the cane.  I took time to explain to her why dad has to flog her.  I did.  Guess what?  It took her just 20 secs to do the right thing!

Do I love my daughter?  You bet.  In fact, if I had left her that night, she would have learn't a bad lesson that if she can insist on her way she will always get her way.  She still hugged me after the homework and we played together.  Now she knows if she does something wrong the cane is not too far away and dad knows how to use it, if needs be.  It is all about love and discipline.  The two must be balanced.

Thank you.

I'm wondering if anybody has the full lyrics (both solo and chorus) of this song by Panam Percy Paul.  I've searched all over the place and couldn't get it:

Song:  I give Him all, all of the glory, I give him glory, glory, glory, Almighty God
Album:  Either Glory I or Glory II (I'm not too sure)

You may have to specify what type of digital map you want.  There are three types:

[list]
[li]Raster images e.g satellite images from remote sensing, aerial photopraphs etc[/li]
[li]Vector data from Computer Aided Design (CAD) using applications like Microstation, AutoCAD[/li]
[li]GIS (Geographic Information Systems) - these combine vector data with attribute information about the data stored as database.[/li]
[/list]

I doubt if anyone will have street level maps covering every city and town in Nigeria.  What you may get easily will comprise of state boundaries, LGAs, towns, roads, rivers, depending on what you want to use it for.

Train up a child in the way (s)he should go; and when (s)he is old, (s)he will not depart from it. Prov. 22 vs 6 (emphasis mine)

The charge to train up a child is given primarily to parents and they set the rules and boundaries, and so determine at what time their kids can do certain things.  Leave it for the society to dictate and you've lost the child to the ills prevalent in the society.  Leave it to the kid and you've lost an important factor -discipline- in the development of the child.

Having said that, there is still what is called modesty in whatever you do.  You can't fault that.  Let all things be done in modesty, including make-ups!

I have spoken.

Bolarge55,

For those who err, which is only human, the path to restoration is self-realization.  Examples abound to attest to this.  Remember the prodigal son in the Bible was lost in his sin and wanton rebellion against his dad until he came to himself, and realized his wrong-doing.  In coming to himself, he had to ask himself several questions like: Why am I here?  What led me here?  Where was I before?  How do I get there?  What do I need to do?  At the end he concluded it was better for him to return to his dad where at least he can afford to eat as he likes and not with pigs.  Not only that, he actually got up and did so.  Guess what?  The father welcomed a lost but found son and threw a great party for him!

I don't want to sound preachy, but you need it.  Take a cue from the prodigal son.  Sit yourself down and think.  Would you want a nameless, faceless lady, whom you probably have not even seen physically (maybe she's even a cripple!), destroy your joy and home of 5 years?  Would you rather prefer her to your beautiful, lovely,  intelligent and resourceful wife (according to your own words)?  What do you stand to gain if eventually your wife files for divorce?

What you have to do is:

1.  Accept your fault and acknowledge you have indeed wronged her.  Consider what she had been through with you, helping you do your responsibility actually.  The last she would want to have is a lazy husband, that sits idle all day, flirting behind her.  Yes, that's what you have done and accept it.

2.  Ask for her forgiveness.  She's mad at you right now.  Try and go through somebody she really listens to, her pastor, best friend, mentor, guardian or whatever.

3.  Repent.  Simply put, don't do it again.  Convince her of this by your action.  Destroy the porn, get rid of the other lady, refuse to pick her calls, stop chatting with her.

4.  Concentrate on building your trust with your wife.  You don't have it right now.  She has every reason not to believe you.  You have to be seen to be trustworthy.  That is a foundation for a good marriage. Let her have access to your phone, don't keep any secret.  Take her out.  Don't take her for a fool, let her look up to you as her man, treat her like your queen, in short woo her like you did the other lady!!  I tell you, it's only a matter of time.  She will grow to love you again.

5.  Start now.

Have a great home.

Doubletree, of what use is it for me to start fretting about what I did not fret about when the pressure was on? If I decided to apply my faith in God and believe in His divine guidiance when the issue mattered most, what will it profit me now to discard that faith that has brought me thus far, moreso when my wife eventually found hers to be AA? What it means is that my kids (I have two now) can never be SS, even if I'm SS, which I'm not!

Don't you agree with me?

Cheers.

Cassidy06,

The responses on your post have been good and I didn't want to make repetition.  But on the other hand, I thought I should drop a line of encouragement for you.

Congrats to you for taking a tough decision.  You have really shown you love the lady by deciding not to go ahead with the marriage.  Love entails sacrifice.  The best way you could have shown love to yourselves is the sacrifice that you both made, though a tough one.  Love is not a feeling- it is an act.  It is what you do.  It carries with it responsibility.

When you consider the suffering ahead, the heartaches, stress and strain, the despair that will come with all that, it is good you broke the engagement.  A broken engagement is better than a lifetime of misery and woe, and maybe a broken marriage that may result. So I salute you courage.

You made a comment that prompted me reply:

Anyway, i am putting my faith in God with the believe that he will give me my rightful wife because i waited for many years before i found this girl. The question now is "when am i going to get another nice girl that is AA (since i have no other choice)?

Since you have decided to put your faith in God, please do with all your heart.  Let Him take absolute control and He will give you the desires of your heart.  It reminds me of when I got engaged to my fiancee, now my wife.  We had gone far in the relationship when the talk of genotype came.  None of us knew our genotypes and we decided we were not going to do the test.  Why? Because we believed God brought us together (we are both born again) and there was no way God will confirm my choice and we will end up not matching each other.  It was years later, after we got married, that my wife did her test when she was pregnant.  I turned out to be AA.  As I'm speaking to you I still don't know my own, but even if I am SS we could have matched!!

I don't advice anyone to try this.  I'm only trying to boost your faith in God.  If you allow Him to lead you to your right wife, He will give you your own and you will match.  Please don't rush into any relationship because of your age.  It will only put pressure on you which will becloud your judgement and ability to trust God.

There is a great christian site on relationships and marriage that can be of help.  I'm sure you will find somethings useful there.

Wish you the best.

HH, of course I'm with you. Career is very dynamic. That is why what you studied in school does not necessarily transform to what you do eventually. I have seen Engineers ending up as bankers, mass communication graduates ending up as designers, geologists doing IT etc.

I have discovered that education is not and end in itself. Rather, it is a means to an end. In fact, it is your starting point. It is to give you a head-start over the uneducated and broaden your horizon so you can venture into any area of interest and still make progress. It is also not static. You only stop learning when you are 6 feet below. As long as you are still alive, there is always an opportunity for improvement in the school of life.

Cheers.

I thought I had rested my case, but you guys made me come back.

I did not compare OND with Bsc.  Please read between the lines.  I was comparing the approach of both the polytechnic and the university.  If you read me well, I said with what I knew as OND holder, I was teaching undergraduates in the university some programming lessons.  I was not even in the university then!

I did borrow some courses from other departments too in my ND days, but you can't compare the two.  In a semester in my year 2, I could remember I only did 2 courses that are computer-related, out of about 9 courses.  You get what I mean?  All I was doing was borrowing courses (both core and electives) from civil, mechanical, electrical engineering fields and many more from other fields (though, as I progressed, I did more of my field).  Remember, as I said, education should broaden your mind.  But you still have some university graduates that cannot even express themselves.

I don't condemn polytechnics nor its HND programme.  I will tell you why I did not go for HND.  I wasn't running away from any discrimination.  During my ND, I found out the concentration was more on software.  It is understandable because the course was Computer Science.  But I wanted something more balanced (both hardware and software), that will make me more of a complete computer professional, which even HND wouldn't have given me, in my case.  That was why I opted for Computer Engineering in the university (OAU had other options of Computer Science with Economics & Computer Science with Mathematics).  Another reason was the beauty of OAU.  I had nursed the ambition of studying there right from secondary school, since my first visit there.  You can't go to OAU and not fall in love with that place.  Oh Great Ife!  Don't let me go off point here by my feeling of nostalgia!!!

Talking about respect, I had a friend who was my coursemate in ND and also had a Distinction.  There was nothing I didn't do to influence his decision of going for HND.  He was adamant.  He opted to do HND instead of going to University.  He was more practical-oriented while I was more on the design side.  Did I respect him?  Oh yes and I still do!  He was a very brilliant chap.

Has anyone considered why they call them poly[b]technic[/b] and [b]univers[/b]ity?  Note my emphasis on the technicality and the universality.

Cheers.

At no point have I said that university graduates and professors know and can do everything in this world.  If you follow my reasoning well in the earlier posts you will agree with me.  I have said both polytechnic and university products have their place in any system, without one being inferior to the other, if we properly understand the place of each.

Yes, there are some things that are better done by polytechnic graduates by virtue of their trainings and there are things that university graduates are better placed to handle.  Refer to my ealier posts.  What any tertiary education should give you is to free your mind and equip you.  Any graduate should be able to develop him/herself.  The degree is not an end in itself.

Permit me to use my own example here.  I happen to be a product of two of the best of both systems here in Nigeria.  So I can say I'm talking from experience.  I have ND in Computer Science from The Polytechnic of Ibadan and a Bsc in Computer Engineering from O.A.U. Ife.  We entered straight into Computer Science courses from the year 1 of my ND program.  I used to teach year 3 and 4 students of university programming.  As far as the field was concerned at my level, I was good (I don't mean to sound proud here, but I had a Distinction).  But when I entered OAU with my ND (direct entry into 200 level) I found a new world entirely!

I almost didn't cope initially (thank God I eventually made 2:1).  I discovered the two systems were quite different.  While my lecturers in the polytechnic were actually teaching and[i] supervising [/i] , with a practical approach, the ones in OAU were lecturing and leaving me to do the studying.  Furthermore, while I was already programming in COBOL, BASIC, FORTRAN and C with ND, I had to do all sorts of courses in so many departments both in Faculty of Technology and others like Law, Admin etc in OAU.  I had a culture shock, having to cope with so many courses I thought were irrelevant!  Here lies the difference.  These all add up to making the university graduate more rounded and broad, e.g. as engineers or professionals, while the poly graduate more specific, e.g as technologists.  Both are required in the workplace.  It has made me easy to work with geologists, surveyors, mechanical, electrical, civil engineers etc and to better interface with them on the job.

I rest my case here.

All,

Since we are using the Computer Science discipline as an example, I hope you know there is much more to the field than programming, Ishmael?  Computer Science is not programming.  Programming is just a subset of Computer Science.  I maintain that a Prof of Computer Science has so much to devote his time to in the field than writing C++ codes!  He can leave that to his students and graduate assistants, which is the practice worlwide.

For instance, in the life-cycle of software development, coding (i.e. programming) which is where a language comes in is just a step (about the 4th step!).  A lot happens before and after.  A Prof who is a system analyst for example, has no business writing codes.  He will leave that to the programmers.  And that is just talking about software development alone.  Where do you place networking, data structures, system architecture, hardware, embedded systems etc?

Professors concentrate on principles, paradigms, methodologies, systems and underlying fundamentals.  That is why they don't teach a particular language in most universities of the world.  Check out their curricula.  What you will see are courses like High Level Languages, Low level Languages etc in which they may introduce the students to one language as an instance of the course and leave the rest for the students to study- that is why you are a student!

The reason for this is not far-fetched.  A university is not a certification centre where they teach a particular narrow subject proprietary to a certain company.  The languages do change from time to time but principles don't change so often.  Yesterday it was COBOL, today it is Java, tomorrow, it will be something else.  The university, or shall I say education generally, is supposed to equip you to cope with challenges and dynamics of life.  I will rather be taught principles of programming that will allow me to adapt quickly to any new language than be taught C++ language.

To answer Hnd-holder , the fact that Bill Gate and Galiliogalili were not degree holders does not diminish the importance of degrees.  They just happen to be the exceptions rather than the rule.  Every now and then geniuses and exceptionally brilliant individuals do show up.  But they are the exceptions.  I happens maybe once in a generation.  How many, Isaac Newtons, Thomas Eddisons and even Bill Gates have we seen?  They don't come all the time.  So let's use everyday people.

I have spoken.

Ishmael,

If you read my post well, you will se the use of "in an ideal situation" and "all things being equal". This is because in all ideal situation, where things work the way they are supposed to, you don't find people discriminating one against the other. They know the usefulness of the two streams. It is so unfortunate that our educational system in Nigeria has deteriorated so much that graduates of both systems cannot measure up to standards again- not just the polytechnics, but the universities. That is a topic for another day.

Your disagreement that professors are not better than non-professors amuses me. Professors earn and deserve their titles. These are people that have reached the pinnacle of their academic careers. Some get the title 20 years after their doctorates! To say they no know nothing is unfair to them.

Bill Gates, as far as I know, is not a total dunce. You may care to find out a little about him. He was exceptionally brilliant and smarter than most of his peers. He was studying Computer Scince at the best university in the world -Harvard- before deciding to leave school in 3rd year so he could concentrate on business and software development (source: http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/bio.asp, http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Gates.Mirick.html). Moreover, he was not a loner. He employed the best of Harvard graduates. The success is there for all to see!

Fellow Nairalanders,

I have been following this discussion with some interest for some time now and I see the way we don't understand ourselves and issues involved sometimes.  I understand that as human beings, we tend to defend ourselves most times.  That is why we continue to argue about which is better between HND and Bsc with each category defending itself.  This is understandable, but quite unnecessary if we recognise each system for what it is, in an ideal situation.

In life, distinctions exist between practicalists and theorists, specialists and generalists, pragmatists and idealists, technologists and engineers and so on.  These are two streams of workforce that are required in every system, without one being inferior to the other in terms of quality and productivity.  In fact, both are necessary for any system to work.

While the theorists are the minds that think out the ideas and bring it from abstract to design stage, the practicalists work on the implemetation side.  Is one better than the other?  NO!  Without the design, there can't be the device.  One needs the other.  While the specialists focus on depth, the generalists are broad.  Is one better than the other?  NO!  Both are required for completeness.

Both theories and practicals are required which is where people like ismael and dayokanu are not quite right.  The focuses of polytechnic and university education are quite different.  While the polytechnic strives to raise practical-oriented graduates that have hands-on approach, and technical depth in a specific area, the university on the other hand focuses on theoretically sound and broad graduates that can manage processes, challenge ideas and change systems.  That is why a polytechnic graduate makes a better specialist and a university graduate a better manager, all things being equal!

Check the misters and the engineers who teach in the polytechnics and you can't fault them as far as hands-on practical experince is concerned.  But to talk ill of professors and stop short of calling them dunces is uninformed.  While a professor of Computer Science may not be able to write programs in C++ or Java languages, except that is his area of specialty, he is more interested in the languge structure, the algorithms that transcends any particular language!  While your ND holder writes the programs, the professor designs the compilers that interprete the programs.  That is why they are into researches, and why any great establishment worth it's name in the world still goes back to the academia, or engage them, in their research and development.  I hope I'm making my point.

I will come back later on this topic.