₦airaland Forum

What is the difference between a continuous monitor and a non-continuous monitor? When are OBD II monitors activated?

A continuous monitor runs all the time, is always active if the engine is on

A non-continuous monitor runs once per trip provided that the operating conditions or enabling criteria for such a monitor to run have been met.

olaboy1:
P0340 from obd-codes.com is triggered by the sensor problem or harness or connector, but I think since the sensor is a camshaft one and the camshaft is driven by a timing chain, would it be wrong to say if the sensor and all electrical feeds to it are 100% good then the next culprit should be the camshaft and it's timing/timing chain.

obd-codes is talking in general terms, your bible as far as your vehicle is concerned is the FSM. Please study the document labeled m_05_0075.

It provides the decision tree for diagnosing the problem.

You are absolutely right!

olaboy1:
1. Pls I need more clarification on fuel trim DTC's, what's the difference between fuel trim and fuel air mixture?
2. Why is Toyota repair manual listing misfire as the 3rd repair step?
Having own many cars in the past, I knew directly without any consultation with a technician that the engine needs to be at optimal performance to avoid DTC's, and since P0340 came up then my suspect from the beginning was changing time chain. Also note I said the car takes few seconds to start, it's one of timing problems.
What's the way forward

1. Search on all the DTCs I listed using the FSM. P0170, P0171, P0172,P0173, P0174, P0175. Also consult internet sources. Including but not limited to this link http://www.autoserviceprofessional.com/article/94982/Fuel-trim-How-it-works-and-how-to-make-it-work-for-you?Page=2. Also read up on 'Stoichiometric' AFR

2. Cannot speak for Toyota. Have you studied the documentation on the specific codes? P0340 is not caused by a timing chain. You may decide to consult sources outside of the FSM to get a clear picture of the issues. We asked for the vehicle's service history and drivability issues and from what you listed, the most important issue to fix right now is P0340.

If you have done the above homework and submitted your findings, we can begin troubleshooting this night!

What types of Monitors exist?

Two major types.

Continuous Monitors which include:

Comprehensive Component Monitor
Fuel System Monitor
Misfire Monitor

Non-continuous Monitors which include:

Air Conditioning System Monitor
Catalyst Efficiency Monitor
Evaporative System Monitor
Exhaust Gas Recirculation System Monitor
Heated Catalyst Monitor
Heated Oxygen Sensor Monitor
Oxygen Sensor Monitor
Secondary System Monitor

Can you list the monitors one can expect to find on an OBD II equipped vehicle?

Air Conditioning System Monitor
Catalyst Efficiency Monitor
Comprehensive Component Monitor
Evaporative System Monitor
Exhaust Gas Recirculation System Monitor
Fuel System Monitor
Heated Catalyst Monitor
Heated Oxygen Sensor Monitor
Misfire Monitor
Oxygen Sensor Monitor
Secondary System Monitor

What is an OBD II Monitor? What role does it play? Why should you be concerned about them?

Two definitions will do.

One is lifted from the Virginia Department of Environmental Quality Website:

“The On-Board Diagnostic (OBD II) System keeps tabs on a vehicle’s performance through the use of “monitors”.
A monitor is a specific type of test that the OBD II system performs on a certain component or subsystem of the vehicle.

Here is a second definition:

Controlled tests or experiments conducted by the PCM/ECU (on several vehicle sub-systems with a view to ascertaining if all the sensors in that subsystem are working within acceptable specifications in order to determine if the subsystem being tested is able to keep emissions within acceptable limits)

olaboy1:
Ok great I have all the parameters I need to purchase an OBD2 tool.
I have looked at the m_05_0016 PDF file and found the following as per my car issues, because you asked the question in one of your previous posts of where to start the diagnosis and repairs from.

A. We need to start from DTC's other than fuel trim malfunction DTC's and misfire DTC's (In my case my fuel trim malfunction DTC's are P1155 and P1135 which are the upstream sensors, and misfire DTC is P0340, or am I wrong. This means the first DTC to start with on my car is P0161 and that is bank 2 sensor 2 after the CAT
B. Fuel trim malfunction DTC's should be the second step of fix (in my case P1155 and P1135)
C. Misfire DTC's (in my case you said it's P0340)

As for the scan tool, I guess I will be fine with the wifi vgate that is compatible with my vehicle's Euro ISO

Fuel Trim DTCs are P0170 to P0175
DTCs P0141, P0161, P1135 and P1155 are Fuel Air Metering DTCs
P0340 is an Ignition/Misfire DTC

We think you should ask the question which of the sensors is most critical to proper engine operation?

To us it is the CMP so we would start from P0340

Please check the document labeled "m_05_0016.pdf"!

Also ask and answer the following questions from the specification sheet of the OBD II Scan Tool you intend to purchase?

Does the OBD II Scan Tool understand the ISO 9141-2/ISO 14230 communication protocol? That is what your car uses!

Does the DLC terminal arrangement of the interface cable comply with the ISO 15031-03/IS0 9141-2/ISO 14230 format? That is what your car uses!

Note:

Your vehicle uses 1 of 5 possible protocols:
J1850 PWM - The connector must have pins 2, 4, 5, 10, and 16.
J1850 VPW - The connector must have pins 2, 4, 5, and 16, but not 10.
ISO 9141-2 - The connector must have pins 4, 5, 7, and 16.
ISO 14230-4 (KWP2000) - The connector must have pins 4, 5, 7, and 16.
CAN-BUS (J1939 & ISO15765-4) - The connector must have pins 4, 5, 6, 14 and 16.

Source: http://www.alpha-bid.com/HowToChooseACodeReader.html

Is the OBD II Scan tool tool a basic tool or a high end tool? And I am comfortable with its outputs? Will it give me the level of data I need for the quality of repairs that I intend to provide?

It's Amazon listing said support for European Vehicles from 2004 forward.

Generate a shopping list of features you want from an OBD II scan tool, then determine which one to buy from studying the tool that meets all the features you consider an absolute must!

olaboy1:
What scan tool would you suggest a vehicle owner and not a repair technician buy.
I am looking at getting the Vgate Icar3 wifi scanner for IOS, since that gives more data and its cost effective for infrequent users.
By the way the first company finally sent me the downloadable files and also I can burn the ISO image on a CD.
Once I am done with everything I let you know.
The first free files yesterday are as follow
1. BRM (Body repair manual)
2. Contents
3. EWD (Electrical wiring diagrams)
4. NCF (?)
5. RM (Repair manual)
6. SDS (Saftety Data Sheet)
All the files in each folder are so many and I think I can now understand while this is not included in the car at the point of sale.

What scan tool should I purchase?

Choosing the right scan tool is a very subjective issue that depends on the following parameters?

1. What is my budget?

2. What is the intended use aka what vehicles will I be working on? One or several? Mine or customers? From which manufacturers? Late model(s)? Old model(s)?

3. Do I want a toy that is easy to use or an advanced tool with a steep learning curve?

4. Do I want something that cannot be updated ( which means that I am stuck with old technology that might lead to more expenses later on) OR do I prefer to purchase a tool that can be upgraded? (Note: The list of new DTCs and system data grows with every new model year, if the tool cannot be updated, it is not worth your money?)

5. Do I want to use an interface cable or do I prefer a wireless connection?

6. Do I prefer a dedicated device or a laptop/tablet/mobile device running OBD II scan software?

7. Will it be OEM or aftermarket?

8. Do I want access to generic or global DTCs only OR do I want access to both generic and manufacturer DTCs?


9. What protocol (language) does(do) the car(s) I intend to scan speak?

olaboy1:
I have downloaded the free version, and I'm trying to put them in proper arrangement.
Thanks for your help, class resumes tomorrow I guess.
Have a good night rest

Good night too

What do I get if I purchase a Professional Scan Tool?

A professional scan tool can also be called an "Enhanced Scan Tool" or "High-End OBD II Scan Tool" or "Professional Diagnostics Scan Tool"

It allows you to connect to the PCM/ECU

It can read Powertrain DTCs (Generic SAE defined DTCs) AS WELL AS Manufacturer DTCs stored in the PCM/ECU Memory

It can erase Powertrain DTCs AS WELL AS Manufacturer DTCs

It can retrieve Freeze Frame Data (still snapshots of vehicle conditions at time the DTC was set, i.e., the vehicle took a selfie of key parameters just before or simultaneously as the DTC was set for future reference/troubleshooting)

It is very unlikely almost impossible for a professional diagnostics scan tool to support less than the 5 protocols (languages) in which OBD II can be spoken

Can read other sub-system codes e.g., Airbag sub-system codes

Can read other sub-system codes e.g., ABS sub-system codes

Usually supports printing of results obtained

Always provides access to live data from the engine and various sensors

Can be updated

Can store results of the vehicle scan for future reference/troubleshooting

Can display the VIN of the scanned vehicle

High cost device

-----------------------
ADDITIONAL POINTS
------------------------

While low end devices may display just a number, high end devices will go beyond by displaying the full definition of the DTC

While low end devices may display just engine and transmission data, high end devices will display sensor data and other system operating information

While low end devices can retrieve DTCs and limit their bidirectional control to the clearing of stored powertrain DTCs, high end devices allow for full bidirectional control inclusive of the capability to test the status of components by turning them on and off as well as running other system tests

Will most certainly display the readiness status of the various OBD II monitors that is whether or not the self-check process was successfullt completed or not

What do I get if I purchase a Basic Code Reader?

A basic code reader also goes by the name "Generic OBD II Code Reader" or "Universal OBD II Code Reader"

It allows you to connect to the PCM/ECU

It can read Powertrain DTCs stored in the PCM/ECU Memory (Generic SAE defined DTCs)

It can erase Powertrain DTCs

It can retrieve Freeze Frame Data (still snapshots of vehicle conditions at time the DTC was set, i.e., the vehicle took a selfie of key parameters just before or simultaneously as the DTC was set for future reference/troubleshooting)

A few of them do not support all the protocols (languages) in which OBD II can be spoken

Cannot read other sub-system codes e.g., Airbag sub-system codes

Cannot read other sub-system codes e.g., ABS sub-system codes

No facility for printing of results obtained

No access to live data

Cannot be updated

No provision for storing results of the vehicle scan for future reference/troubleshooting

No provision for displaying the VIN of the scanned vehicle

Low cost device

----------------------
ADDITIONAL POINTS
------------------------

Low end devices may display just a number and not display the full definition of the DTC

Low end devices may display just engine and transmission data leaving out sensor data and other system operating information

Low end devices can retrieve DTCs and limit their bidirectional control to the clearing of stored powertrain DTCs instead of full bidirectional control which means that it is impossible to independently of the PCM/ECU test the status of components by turning them on and off as well as run other system tests

Rarely will low end devices display the readiness status of the various OBD II monitors that is whether or not the self-check process was successfully completed or not

olaboy1:
I use windows 10 also. The files are so scattered and I am still trying to see how to put them in order

Was trying to run the .html files

Also have the PDF files.

If you are done arranging them, please share the legend, that is, old file name, new file name.

olaboy1:
I have downloaded the free version, and I'm trying to put them in proper arrangement.
Thanks for your help, class resumes tomorrow I guess.
Have a good night rest

Please post a screenshot of the home page.

I downloaded it before you but it refuses to run on Windows 10. What OS are you using?

olaboy1:
The free one is not working also.

Did you click on this link and follow the prompts? Link deleted due to copyright concerns

olaboy1:
I have paid for the download on the link below but it's saying no downloads found, and I've sent them an email on that expecting reply within 24hrs.

http://qualityservicemanual.com/713/toyota-avensis-verso-picnic-2001-2009-workshop-repair-service-manual

This one is free Link deleted due to copyright concerns

The post above was updated.

Try to download from the link provided above ( the free one)

olaboy1:
The Toyota tech Europe database is not very useful and very expensive.
The materials are on CD and books only, and just electrical wiring diagram manual costs 40 euros for CD copy and 290 euros for the book.
I was at the Toyota company and what they had was an instruction manual which I have already in the car. I was referred to another store to buy Haynes repair manual, but unfortunately they don't have for verso.
The other TIS website I'm not sure if they have for my car model, and I have to supply them account and payment info even when I'm not sure if they have what I need.
What's the way forward

Let's forget about Toyota Tech Europe

Also ignore the TIS as they will most certainly not have data for your vehicle.

It has not been easy trying to obtain this manual, but you now have choices, per the above

olaboy1:
Oh yea it's such a great family mini van.
They don't have for verso in the link you attached. But take a look at the link below and let me know what you think

http://www.epcdepo.com/toyota-avensis-verso-picnic-service.html

Love these guys,
they even have a preview of what you are about to buy

Yea, noticed after posting.

Internet down

Toyota Avensis Verso, Picnic 2001-2009 Workshop Repair & Service Manual

This is cheaper!

Link deleted: Due to copyright concerns

This is Free!

Link deleted: Due to copyright concerns

Please kindly try https://toyotamanuals.com.au/register.

As you may be aware, your vehicle won Australia's "Best People Mover" back in the day.

olaboy1:
The Toyota tech Europe database is not very useful and very expensive.
The materials are on CD and books only, and just electrical wiring diagram manual costs 40 euros for CD copy and 290 euros for the book.
I was at the Toyota company and what they had was an instruction manual which I have already in the car. I was referred to another store to buy Haynes repair manual, but unfortunately they don't have for verso.
The other TIS website I'm not sure if they have for my car model, and I have to supply them account and payment info even when I'm not sure if they have what I need.
What's the way forward

Let's make a few enquiries from this end.

Can we have your VIN?

We'll be back soon

olaboy1:
I found a website for Toyota Europe.
www.toyota-tech.eu/menu/Repair

Please take a look at this and give your opinion

Perfect!

olaboy1:
By access do you mean read only and I can't download for future reference

Either...

Access as in a username and log in to a portal

OR

a link to where that information can be downloaded if it is not behind a firewall!

olaboy1:
I'm based in Sweden. This car is not marketed in USA, I think they have Sienna instead in the states
Toyota co here just called me to come over for the FSM. I will check if the following are included in the booklet before I buy
1. Repair manual
2. Wiring diagrams
Am I missing anything out

Noted!

Ask them if they have got a TIS for Europe.

And ask for access to all the Technical Service Bulletins for your ride to date!!

olaboy1:
... The car was diagnosed by qualified govt emission control center and the checks came back with the following:
1. MIL
2. Idling CO/HC too high
3. Increased idle value incorrect (guess they are referring to the rpm at idle)
OBD2 error codes identified
P0161-O2 sensor oxygen circuit low voltage (bank 2, sensor 2)
P0141-O2 sensor heater circuit malfunction (bank 1, sensor 2)
P0340-Camshaft position sensor circuit malfunction
OBD self test not performed (I'm not sure what they mean by self test)...

Where are you based? Asking because of the bolded!

olaboy1:
Thanks for linking that other nairaland thread. Naija mechanics would tell you 'oga this one no mean anything', and you helplessly watch them yank off important parts on your vehicle.

I am following your tutorials step by step and I am not just going to throw motor parts at my mechanic whilst he uses my fund for his trial and error. I am sceptical about buying sensors because I have looked at local websites selling used parts here and they are selling sensors with over 240,000km life span and in good working conditions. From one of your posts, I could directly tell the upstream sensors DTC's fall under manufacturers fault at such one can't just go and buy generic sensors, the downstream sensors allow for generic sensors, and this means the upstream sensors have more major functions than the downstream sensors.

I have looked online at my local library and national library websites and can't find the repair manual for this car. Why can't car manufacturers include this in the booklets in the car, all I see are service booklet, user manual.

How or where do I shop for my car's FSM, any pointers I would really appreciate.
Thumbs up to you AutoElectNG

The source for your FSM:

https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/appmanager/t3/ti?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=ti_home_page&contextType=external&username=string&password=sercure_string&challenge_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftechinfo.toyota.com%2FtechInfoPortal%2Flogin%2Ftechinfo&request_id=-7563125617258105338&authn_try_count=0&locale=en_US&resource_url=https%253A%252F%252Ftechinfo.toyota.com%252F

I suggest that you cough out the funds for one month's access to the TIS and download everything you can about your vehicle in that period.

You will get access to
1. Service Bulletins
2. Repair Manuals
3. Wiring Diagrams
4. Technical Training
5. Other Technical Information

This investment of $75 will turn out to be the next best decision after you have purchased that vehicle if you want it to serve you long and remain pristine.

I have attached screenshots of what you can expect at that link.

Vehicle manufacturers are in business to make money.

The automotive business is one of the most capital-intensive businesses in the world, and yet the margins are not that great.

Manufacturers include a user manual for free.

But as the pictures below show, documentation preparation for a vehicle does not end when the vehicle is produced.

It costs a lot to generate that data, it costs a lot to make it available online, it costs a lot to keep the information up-to-date, so they cannot afford to give it out for free. Otherwise, they would run at a loss.

So we hope you get to spend the $75 and when you have access, let us know so we can take it from there.

By the way the $75 gives you access to online and not printed manuals.

ozone0801:
Just seeing this class. I'm following and learning keenly.

You are welcome to the class

olaboy1:
Yes I remember that post, I will go look for a FSM

Never ever forget that with the modern vehicle - knowledge is power.
Secondly, there is no need to reinvent the wheel.

This quote says it all...the diagnosis of the vehicle is put on pause until owner gets the FSM and reports to the class with his FSM.

Caution when Relying Only on Diagnostic Trouble Codes...

Parts or components should not be replaced with reference to only a DTC. The vehicle service manual should be consulted for more information on possible causes of the fault, along with required testing.

For example, if a DTC reports a sensor fault, replacement of the sensor is unlikely to resolve the underlying problem. The fault is most likely to be caused by the systems that the sensor is monitoring, but might even be caused by the wiring to the sensor itself.

DTCs may also be triggered by faults earlier down the line. For example, a dirty MAF sensor might be causing the car to overcompensate in its fuel-trim adjustments. As a result, oxygen sensors are likely to report fuel mixture problems.

So to avoid unpredictable hazards when fixing a vehicle based on it's DTC codes -- make sure you get a reliable OBD2 reader that'll thoroughly scan the vehicle for faults beyond traditional DTC codes.

If your mechanic does not follow the steps we are following, then maybe that's why we tend to see threads like this created on Nairaland https://www.nairaland.com/3649573/prevalence-wrong-auto-diagnostics-nigeria

Credit for the above quote goes to: http://www.totalcardiagnostics.com/support/Knowledgebase/Article/View/21/0/genericmanufacturer-obd2-codes-and-their-meanings

uvalued:
not many interested sha but i follow to be educater

Hope the classes have been useful to you?

kushfc:
Noted

Useful to you?

In a best case scenario, to repair an OBD II vehicle you need access to

1. the owner's manual

2. the vehicle's factory service manual

3. Vehicle specific DTC reference guide obtained from your manufacturer instead of a generic SAE DTC reference specification - this is often
a deal breaker

4. Vehicle specific vacuum schematics

5. Vehicle specific vapor hose schematics

6. Vehicle specific wiring diagrams

7. Vehicle-specific guidelines for turning on various vehicle monitors (what minimum criteria needs to be met for the vehicle monitor to run)

8. Access to third-part repair databases (unlike in Nigeria, if you work in facilities that repair vehicles overseas, you will observe that shops subscribe to services such as these

Without all of this, or at least number 2, number 3 and number 6, you cannot do a good job of the particular problem at hand.

Do you remember the above post?

You badly need number 2 to make meaningful progress.

Without number 2, your diagnosis and troubleshooting will be Local Class not World Class

olaboy1:
What is a FSM?

Factory Service Manual