₦airaland Forum

tunde783:
The timing chain was the culprit for the p0016code, it was exposed today. It jumped by one tooth.
Find attached pic

Any updates?

Have the codes gone for good?

SmartchoicesNG:
1996 Honda civic European model... Manual transmission MA8. 1.4i

Any updates on your case

olaboy1:
Short term fuel trim Bank 1 at idle 900rpm 0 to (-3.91)
1500rpm +3 to (-3.91)
2500rpm +5.47 to 0

Long term fuel trim Bank 1 at idle 900rpm -13.28 to -14.06
1500rpm -10.94
2500rpm -10.94


Short term fuel trim Bank 2 at idle 900rpm -0.78 to -3
1500rpm +3.91 to -2.34
2500rpm +3.12 to +10.94

Long term fuel trim Bank 2 at idle 900rpm -18.75
1500rpm -12.50
2500rpm -9.38 to -10.16

i do not experience anymore the engine stalling on the highway at 120km/h, remember I had problem overtaking before but not anymore. The vehicle runs so fast now but I notice the RPM at 120km/h stays at 3100rpm without dropping, isn't that going to consume gasoline. 2750rpm at 100km/h.

The correct way to report these values is as follows:

Please reformat so we don't have to waste time doing that for you

BANK 1 STFT @ IDLE (900RPM) // BANK 1 LTFT @ IDLE (900RPM)


BANK 1 STFT @ 1500RPM // BANK 1 LTFT @ 1500RPM

BANK 1 STFT @ 2500RPM // BANK 1 LTFT @ 2500RPM
=================================

BANK 2 STFT @ IDLE (900RPM) // BANK 2 LTFT @ IDLE (900RPM)


BANK 2 STFT @ 1500RPM // BANK 2 LTFT @ 1500RPM

BANK 2 STFT @ 2500RPM // BANK 2 LTFT @ 2500RPM


Thank you.

To assist you, it is necessary to compare STFT with LTFT

But the way it is arranged, we need to re-arrange before we can interpret which is not good since we have others in line waiting to be served!

olaboy1:
I failed emission test today. Before I went for the test, I was at Toyota company to buy the recommended denso plugs for the car and also cleaned the MAF sensor filament with cleaner I got also from Toyota. After this my car starts better now and the fuel trims immediately became better.
The emission results below
CO and HC too high
CO at idle was 0.8 (0.5 is the maximum allowed)
CO at 2500 rpm was 0.1 (0.3 is the maximum allowed) so I passed CO at higher rpm
HC was 118 (100 is the maximum allowed)
Lambda: 1.01 (0.97-1.03 is the range allowed) so I passed on that also.

What next do I need to do to bring down the CO and HC values.

This is beginning to shift from purely electrical to a bit more of mechanical and a lot less electrical.

HC means hydrocarbons which means inefficient fuel burn, you are wasting fuel since it goes out the tailpipe without playing its role in combustion.


Causes might include:

1. Are we dealing with a case of an overly rich fuel mix due to a MAF that is incorrectly reporting the air fuel ratio or a dirty air filter?

2. Did you replace the engine oil and filter just before you went for the emissions test?

3. Had you driven the car for at least an hour so that the engine had fully warmed up before it went in for emissions testing?

4. Ignition coil assembly: At 200,000Km, you need to seriously overhaul the ignition system, and that would include the source of the voltage that the spark plug wires carry. This is required to have an ignition system that operates optimally since bad spark due to a worn-out component in the ignition system translates to unburned HC.

5. Ignition timing out of line: is the ignition timing over-advanced resulting in a spark of insufficient duration?

6. Is the engine worn old or worn out? Does it have low compression?

7. Is your catalytic converter failing or has it failed?

8. Spark plug wires not delivering enough juice to give the fuel a complete burn: At 200,000Km, you need to seriously overhaul the ignition system, and that would include the system for delivering voltage to the spark plugs to create the fire that ignites the fuel. This is required to have an ignition system that operates optimally since bad spark due to a worn-out component in the ignition system translates to unburned HC.

9. Spark plugs old or worn out: At 200,000Km, you need to seriously overhaul the ignition system, and that would include replacing the burners, they must be pretty tired now and not as efficient as they were meant to be. This is required to have an ignition system that operates optimally since bad spark due to a worn-out component in the ignition system translates to unburned HC.

10. Vacuum leaks letting in unmetered air: Given all the work you have done fiddling with the vacuum hoses, are you absolutely certain that each one of them has been reconnected correctly? It might be necessary to carefully inspect them to see if there are any that might need to be replaced due to age that might be responsible for leaks that are wreaking havoc on the air fuel mix. Please consult the vacuum hose routing diagrams in the FSM to ensure that everything is the way it was meant to be – neither disconnected nor misrouted. Also check that wherever you have got gaskets, that there are no leaks

11. Was the coolant level optimal?

RECOMMENDATIONS

1. We might have to replace the MAF, but before we do that, let us replace the air filter and then monitor the STFT and LTFT to determine if it will stay within reasonable/acceptable limits

2. Replace the ignition coil assembly

3. Replace the spark plug wires

4. Replace the spark plugs (Good to know that that has been done already)

5. Ensure that you do not have any vacuum leak at all!

CO means carbon monoxide which means you have a case of incomplete combustion


Your air fuel ratio is way out of line. In particular the fuel is does not get to form part of the combustion cycle.

A couple of issues could have caused this.


1. Are we dealing with a case of an overly rich fuel mix due to a MAF that is incorrectly reporting the air fuel ratio or a dirty air filter?
2. Do we have a bad idle air control (IAC) valve sending wrong readings to the ECM?
3. Do we have a faulty throttle position sensor sending wrong readings to the ECM?
4. Do we have a stuck or ruptured fuel regulator?
5. Do we have leaking fuel injectors?
6. Do we have restrictions in the fuel return line?

RECOMMENDATIONS

We might need to replace the MAF, but let us begin with replacing the Air Filter first and checking STFT and LTFT values so as to detect if the ECM is seeing the correct values!

BY THE WAY
Does your OBD II reader support live data?

olaboy1

apart from the key kick starter and the oxygen sensors, what else have you replaced since this ride came into your possession?

Please provide a comprehensive list, so we can have an idea of the current state of vehicle subsystems given the mileage?

After this list is provided, we will give you a list of recommendations on the way forward!

GuageLTD:
pls can I have your contact/whatsapp or email? wceva Is convenient for U so I can get in touch with you.
would rly love to seek ur guidance on a broader scale.

Haven't seen your email, although Nairaland did notify me that you reached out but the email is nowhere to be found - checked everywhere, please try again and hopefully it will come through this time around!

rebella:
I will prefer to mail it, please what's your email address. Thanks

Seen your report, will respond to you later today!

J0hnTrevolt:
oga u dnt even wanna treat my little issue. No wahala.

We empathize with you and sympathize with you
BUT IF
you revisit our posts of

1) March 28, 2017 at 1.24pm, you will notice that it was announced that the ability to respond in detail would be hampered because of other projects we are working on

2) March 31, 2017 at 12.20am, further noted that there still wasn't enough time to respond in detail to issues raised on this thread

3) March 31, 2017 at 10.49pm, just above your post, further observed that full diagnostics would resume next week when the projects being handled would reach advanced stages allowing time for more detailed responses

You can get a one line response.

You can get a detailed picture.

We prefer the later to the former.

Your case will be treated this week.

As for the case of the picnic, it is already ongoing and given the time-sensitive nature of the emission test the owner was about to take, it was necessary to respond to him ASAP.

We have nothing against you!

It is just that we try to be painstaking and detailed, it is the best or nothing as far as we are concerned.

To obtain correct readings, lock in the RPM at the recommended values for at least 30 seconds before noting both values.

You may need a helper!

olaboy1:
Ok I don't need to worry about RPM anymore then.
My major concern right now is Short term fuel trim percentage. What does my minus 21.09 STFT mean in terms of fuel consumption and what are the trouble areas to look. With the attached pix pls explain further.
At idle I have minus 21.09 for bank 1 and 2. when I added load with high RPM around 2500-3000RPM it moves between +5, 0, -8, -21.09 for bank 1 and 2.

When I introduced a big vacuum leak after the MAF sensor, the STFT Bank 1/2 also moved up and down. About same value as above.
After this last check of introducing vacuum leak and putting back the hose properly at idle I noticed something.
STFT Bank 1 moves between -7 to -13
STFT Bank 2 moves between -17.97 to -21.09

Can I pass emission test this way and later fix this problem because I have the emission test tomorrow, or do I reschedule.
I was wondering since I don't have any DTC's and no MIL it won't be a problem to pass emission. I need advice on this also

It is not ideal to look at STFT in isolation.

LTFT is also required.

Indeed both are necessary to comprehensively deduce the state of the engine with respect to fuel trims.

Can you provide both STFT AND LTFT at
1) idle
2) 1,500 RPM
3) 2,500 RPM

Thanks!

rebella:
I got a print out, please what is the freeze frame data..lol

Freeze Frame Data is when the ECU decides to take a selfie of key engine parameters at the moment in time that a DTC is thrown.

Read more here: https://www.nairaland.com/3661728/on-board-diagnostics-obd-ii-questions/1#54562357

Can you upload a copy of the print out or would you prefer to email it?

Have you got a background in engineering or electronics or the sciences?

Love this.

This goes to proof what I have been preaching.

Electronics and Electricals are not accessories to modern day vehicles BUT integral to modern vehicle operation.

And we should expect even more integration and for Electronics and Electricals to take on more functions.

Congratulations!

olaboy1:
I have installed the oxygen sensors upstream and downstream and erased the codes and MIL disappeared. I have done one trip and two trips detection logic and I don't have any DTC's and no MIL.

Good, I don't see why it should not pass emissions inspection and why my bank account should not smile from your gratitude! LOL.

The car before the sensors fix and also after the fix doesn't start in like 2 seconds of turning the ignition key, you have to hold the key while the engine spins like 5 seconds before it starts which is quite different from my other car that starts at a blow.

You have to find out from those who have 1AZ-FE engines installed if any of their vehicles start in 2 seconds of turning the ignition key. Not privileged to conduct that test so no information to share.

Also, it seems that the other vehicles that you are comparing the Picnic to might be more recent vehicles or vehicles from another stable.

While the principles underpinning automotive technology remain largely the same, the implementations are different. In other words, the theory remains the same, but the application is not uniform so we can expect changes in behavior from one engine to another.


In any case, how does a car start?

Until a certain number of engine revolutions is reached, the car cannot start. Until the ECM receives/processes expected input(s) and output(s) from certain sensors, the car will not start.

Seems to much to expect everything to happen in 2 seconds for vehicles of that area, 5 seconds is more like it!

I have below the live data if you could make any sense out of this for me, all I want is the car to start fast, function optimally with lower fuel consumption.
And also during cold start the RPM is like 1800 at idling, and when it's properly warm it goes to 740RPM, wondering if that is normal. Shouldn't the RPM be 740 immediately whether cold or warm.

FUEL SYSTEM STATUS
ECU 1. 2) closed loop: using O2 sensor for fuel mix
Engine load. 21.96%
Engine coolant temperature. 67.00 degrees Celsius
Short term fuel trim % - Bank 1. Minus 19 to minus 21.09
Long term fuel trim % - Bank 1. Minus 8.59
Short term fuel trim % - Bank 2. Minus 19 to minus 21.09
Long term fuel trim % - Bank 2. Minus 6.25
Engine RPM. 738
Timing advance. 9.5 - 10 degrees
Intake air temp IAT. 30.00 degrees Celsius
MAF air flow rate. 2.96 grams/sec
Throttle position. 12.55%

OXYGEN SENSORS 1 PRESENT
ECU1. 00110011
0212(Bank 1). 0.7 - 0.85v
0212(Bank 2). Not used. %
0222(Bank 1). 0.7 - 0.78v
0222(Bank 2). Not used. %

OBD STANDARD
ECU1 EOBD (Europe)
02S1 (Bank 1). 0.9 - 1.008v
02S1 (Bank 2). 3.344%
02S5 (Bank 1). 0.81 - 0.997v
02S5 (Bank 2). 3.2 - 3.315%

Can we get the above in a table?

You can use Excel or take a picture from the scanner and then post it here?

In any case, this information has not been analyzed at this moment, so inferences cannot be drawn, maybe later.

As to your other question about RPMs, here is your answer: High RPM at start helps your engine warm up faster, once it warms up, the RPM improves.

This video shows the problem you think you have
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ0vqDwlVLk but this link provides additional detail as to why it is not a problem: for vehicles with a similar engine to yours: http://www.rav4world.com/forums/83-4-1-general/85680-high-idle-start-then-fine-after-10mins.html

As a matter of fact, this exact same thing happens on my own personal ride, high RPM at start which gradually slows down till it is somewhere between 700 and 800 RPM.

GuageLTD:
Wow!! Thanks for dis bro. Dis r surely tot provoking questions...
Hmmmm where do I start from oooo

Nothing beats knowing that your hard earned funds were spent in the very best possible way

That at the time, you took the wisest decision anyone in your circumstances and with your funds would have taken.

I see that a particular brand of OBD II Scan tool has been recommended.

I want you to study these dated (old) threads to appreciate why purchasing an OBD II scan tool should not be done on impulse

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=216563&showall=1

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=218565

GuageLTD:
pls can I have your contact/whatsapp or email? wceva Is convenient for U so I can get in touch with you.
would rly love to seek ur guidance on a broader scale.

Will respond to your email

rebella:
It was done at a professional auto workshop. Other codes include p0453, p0498, p0141,p1298. It's been there for a while,mileage is around 131,000

Ideally the professional auto workshop should have given you a print out the code readout.

It would have been invaluable to study the Freeze Frame Data of your vehicle.

If you could obtain that information, it would be grand, but if you cannot, we will try our best without it!

J0hnTrevolt:
HELP PLEASE OOOO!
Scanned my toyota avalon 2002 model and it threw up these codes
P0300
P0301
P0303
P0305

Please wat do I do and how do I go about it.
A mechanic has been suggesting I change my 02sensor and spark plugs but I need a second opinion. The ride consumes fuel BTW.
Tnx

We have a few vehicles in the driveway, but it will soon be your turn.

olaboy1:
I bought the sensors in Europe as buying from abroad would have amounted to the same cost due to custom clearance and VAT.
I am pleased that we followed all due process to determine the right repairs.
Hahahaha Paypal don block me for account duplication, but not too worry local transfer still dey work.
Its interesting to be on this OBD forum and I have learnt so much. Your diagnosis also albeit online are concise and world class.

Lovely

OK, then since you are all the way in Sweden, that was why PayPal was suggested, a local account number is available

The classes are not over

There is still a lot that has not been covered.

rebella:
It was done at a professional auto workshop. Other codes include p0453, p0498, p0141,p1298. It's been there for a while,mileage is around 131,000

Thanks for providing a comprehensive picture.

We will be back with a detailed resolution guide to enable you decide the next move.

rebella:
Thanks, trying to get second opinions cos I getting conflicting views on how to handle it. Mech 1 says inspect IMRC, mech 2 is saying brainbox. So i'm confused

Is the P1077 the only code thrown by the vehicle?

Do you know the type of device used to read the code?

Can you arrange for it to be scanned by a professional scan tool instead of just a code reader in case there might be problems an ordinary code reader cannot pick up?

In the meantime, I will study the documentation on this code and be back with a professional opinion in a couple of days?

Did this just start suddenly? Or was work done on the vehicle before this started happening?

What is the mileage of the vehicle? Any recent repairs?

GuageLTD:
hello to the pros in d house. abeg I wan buy correct scanner. type dt can scan engine, transmission and ABS.
cc Gazzuzz honmusa kingreign etc
pls help a budding auto repairs learner out.
what type do U suggest dts pocket friendly and very effecient? and details of cost too pls
God bless

What vehicle(s) do you want to scan?

What brands(s) do you want to scan?

What year(s) model of those vehicles and brands do you want to scan?

Are you sure that given the vehicles/brands in question that just obtaining data from the engine, the transmission and the ABS will be sufficient?

Do you want a dedicated hardware? Or do you prefer a software that can be loaded onto any laptop and with an OBD II cable interface can interact with any vehicle?

Am I purchasing from authorized channels or the grey market? What will the implications for support be for me?

Can this scan tool do bi-directional communication or not?

For more details check out

What do I get if I purchase a Basic Code Reader?

AND

What do I get if I purchase a Professional Scan Tool?

AND

What scan tool should I purchase?

here:

https://www.nairaland.com/3661728/on-board-diagnostics-obd-ii-questions/3

PRO TIP: Before you buy a product, if it a product that is sold on Amazon, check out what verified customers have to say about it.

rebella:
My Honda is giving an error code of P1077, please how do I sort this out ?

Full details of the vehicle. Year/Model/Trim

You can get a one line response.

You can get a detailed picture.

We prefer the later to the former.

But that can only happen if you provide as much information as possible.

Once we have this, it will be be the very first post, when online diagnostics resume week.

olaboy1:
An update on my car.
I changed all the oxygen sensors to brand new original Toyota from Toyota company and my car is running like a champ now.

Happy you followed the suggestion to replace the sensors

Did you get them in Europe?

How were you able to reduce the cost? As compared to the prices in the Unites States?

I used the wifi OBD to clear the codes and the codes are gone with no MIL. I have done one and two trips detection logic and I don't have a check engine light again.

Had a feeling that if the sensors were replaced everything would be alright, but since we are specialists, we don't throw parts at the car without conclusive evidence that those parts need to be replaced hence all the processes we followed

Once i installed the Oxygen sensors upstream and downstream, it took the ECM some few minutes to relearn everything and now my engine does not idle like a Diesel engine anymore and also the power of the engine has increased, RPM very stable now, and the movement now fast and sharp.

Watch the fuel consumption, it should improve considerably!

Let's see if I pass emission test next week.
Thanks AutoElectNG for all your kind help in breaking everything down for me.

It should pass the emission test since the emissions issue has been resolved, until then we cannot officially send the vehicle off the service bay.

If you pass, then we will give you our PayPal address, it sure deserves an inflow, as to the amount, we will leave that to you to decide!

And by the way, thank you for the pleasure of providing us our very first sight unseen ride for the purpose of the Nairaland OBD II online class.

So far you have helped to prove the assertion that with a good understanding of automotive technology, a copy of the manufacturer's service guidelines and obtaining automotive vehicle health from OBD II data, we can fix problems intelligently.

rebella:
My Honda is giving an error code of P1077, please how do I sort this out ?

Seen

Will respond next week

Super occupied at the moment

cc: tunde783 olaboy1

Last picture

tunde783:
The timing chain was the culprit for the p0016code, it was exposed today. It jumped by one tooth.
Find attached pic

Is it all sorted out?

This was the suggested solution on this thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/3661728/on-board-diagnostics-obd-ii-questions/5#54780638 as far back as March 20, 2017 at 1921

In the following words:

How do you get out of this mess?

Mechanical - (timing chain has jumped tooth or chain stretched)
Electrical - Replace ECM

But you said you recently did an engine overhaul, so the culprit is not the ECM!

Then most likely what you have got on your hands is an engine rebuild gone wrong.
....
So you have most likely got either of the following:

1. a wrongly installed timing chain
2. a failed VVTi actuator
3. damaged wiring to the VVTi actuators

We believe it is more likely going to be number 1.

By the way, there is a Lexus TSB that says that if have P0016 and or P0019 as well as P0300 to P0306, ignore P0300 to P0306 and fix the P0016 and or P0019 first and the P0300 to P0306 might go!

Have you done a post-repair scan that ensures that the following conditions are fulfilled?

Busy...will be here when the workload lessens...

olaboy1:
Thanks. So it means my system is EFI.

Cool, so you know which tests to follow!

Flyingman:
Happy Sunday guys, I just discovered the blinking 'D' light has returned. My electrician disconnected the c201 to work on my AC compressor clutch issues. While doing that they was a spark from the open c201 connector and 'D' started blinking. Checked and they was no voltage to the VSA modulator. Had to check the fuse and this is what I found. Can this be fixed or I'll have to get another one? How much is it?

Battery negative cable not disconnected while working on the ride!

Get another one!!

Orientation of your picture is wrong.

Please find attached the correct orientation

Till you sight the car!

SmartchoicesNG:
1996 Honda civic European model... Manual transmission MA8. 1.4i

We could proceed but can you provide pictures of the problem area? It will help immensely in determining resolution approach