₦airaland Forum

italo:
1. I never insulted anyone. Telling someone who isnt thinking well to pray to God to improve his reasoning is never an insult.

2. You chose not to see the harsh words used against me. E.g barnabaseloka called me "bigot" first. ..but you skipped that and quoted me calling him a bigot in return. That shows how impartial and honest you are.

3. A Christian should sometimes tell people exactly what they are and what the situation is just like Jesus did in Matt 23 and John did in Matt 15:33 to hypocrites who aren't interested in an intelligent discussion, but only want to condemn even if it means levelling false allegations.

Were Jesus and John unkind and arrogant?

4. If you're interested in truth, tell us your inference from the thread so far.

Do you believe like barnabaseloka...that saints can pray for God to punish people on earth...but they cannot pray for God to bless people on earth?

I did not call you a fool, neither did I write that you were stupid. Maybe you view the word 'bigot' as a harsh word on you.
The word 'bigot' is defined by the Oxford Dictionary as: A person who has very strong, unreasonable beliefs or opinions about race, religion or politics, and who will not listen to or accept the opinions of anyone who disagrees.
Nevertheless I apologise if I have hurt you by using the word.

italo:
And these 'dead' and 'asleep' saints do pray and rejoice about earthly happenings. No?

I have given you some passages as your guideline. Read them b/c they answered your question. This is how people like you need to be replied.

Jusmudi:
Do U remember dis World " come let us reason together" my broda community of Blivers gives u hope of serving God, praying 4 u, nd joining hands in prayers because agreement prayer is very good

Agreed. But will not concur if community of believers also include the saints who have gone into eternity.

Jusmudi:
U said u dn't hv a particular church
Lik I said b4 sorry 4 d statement

I have a church where I worship. Yet, I act like the Bereans. I personally study the scriptures to know if what I am taught there is in line with what the scriptures say. If not in line, I obey God's word. Jesus said 'Take heed lest any man (preacher, teacher, pastor, pope, brother or sister) deceive you!

italo:
You aren't living by God's word.

God's word never said Saints can't pray for people on earth. That is your man made tradition.

Lol. The saints living on earth can intercede for fellow saints living on earth. Paul requested prayers from the saints in different churches he wrote letters to. I also wrote on the three people who intercede for saints who live on earth.

I have proven from the scriptures that saints who have gone into eternity do not know about the happenings on the earth. But, you could not explain your belief about this explicitly from the scriptures. You tend to hold on to what you have been taught when the word of God says another thing.

italo:
Is the above the way the early Christians determined the truth in Acts 15...

...or did they go to the Church leaders?

Cc Timmytimmy...pls watch this space.

There are many ways to get the truth. It must not always be from church leaders. Any true christian can teach another christian who is confused the truth from the scriptures. This was why Paul told Timothy (and every christian) to study to show himself approved so that he can rightly divide (teach) the word of truth (2 Tim.2 :15). Aquila and Priscilla taught Apollos the truth about Jesus in Acts 18:24-26.

However, if there is any church doctrine or teaching which one in that church is confused about, then such a person should meet the church leaders. This was what the early apostled did in Jerusalem.

Note: The church leaders must not contradict the scriptures, rather they are to find a balance among the scriptures.

Jusmudi:
Note
U don contest for position in heaven because rewards individual according to the role u played while on earth
Bros 1 tin is dt is hard 2 change ur mentality.

I am not fixed or stuck to my opinions. I go with the truth whenever and wherever it is spoken. What pisses me off is when someone lays claims to traditions and ideologies of men that contradict that which is written in the scriptures.

You are right. No one contests for position in heaven, yet every christian srives to enter heaven. The unbiased knowledge and truth of the scriptures help christians to run this race effectively.

When one chooses to go with traditions and doctrines of men that clearly contradict God's word, rather than the truth from the scriptures, they serve as stumbling blocks to the person.
For me, I choose to live by the word of God instead of joining multitudes in obeying teachings that contradict God's word!

Jusmudi:
Bros sorry for using this language read Rev 3:15-16 I knw ur deeds, dt u ar neither cold nr hot. I wish u were either! So because u are lukewarm- neither hot nr cold- I am abt 2 spit u out of my mouth

And what is this supposed to mean?

btoks:
The
How do we know the correct interpretation?(And please not the knowing the true spirit argument you guys always come up with - because it's a non sequitur)Who do we go to if there's a dispute on scripture interpretation?

Correct interpretation of the scripture is got when a balance is struck among different passages that talk about a particular issue. All this is done by the help of the Holy Spirit.

Take a look at these:
1. How consistent are you in studying the scriptures, even after going to church?
2. Your personal study gives you a strong foundation and also gives you knowledge (insight) and understanding, making you to rapidly grow spiritually.
3. Personal study helps you to compare scriptures with scriptures in order to strike a balance among them.
4. When you get confused while studying, go to a christian who you know has attained some level of maturity spiritually. One who can rightly divide or teach the word of God, balancing scriptures.
5. Or, join a christian bible study group. A group that will enlighten you on the word of God, not one that causes more confusion or contradicts God's word.
6. Your sincerity to know the truth and live by it show how God will lead you to the truth.

In conclusion, your personal foundation, got during your personal study of the scriptures under the Holy Spirit, is a key tool to avoid being deceived by any spiritual 'teacher' or 'preacher'.

Ubenedictus:
heb 12: 22-24, it says you have come to mount zion, dear barnabaseloka have you come to mount Zion?

Lol. Yes, I have come to Mount Zion and not Mount Sinai.

Ubenedictus:
what truth are you preaching dear?

The saints can pray to God to punish those on earth but no saint can pray God bless those on earth!

Those in heaven are busy offering our prayer before the throne of God and yet you can't recognise that is intercession!

The book of hebrew decribes our Christian life as a big feast with the father, the son, the holyspirit, angels and saints and yet you prefer to tell me the saints can't hear. The problem is that you do not really believe the bible.

When the bible teaches we are in a big feast protestanism says we are in a small room with just Jesus and us. I reject protestanism and hold the fullness of the word of God.

I am in a great feast and with me is God the father, the son whose blood pleads greater than abel, the celestial hosts and the souls of the just now made perfect and my brother and sister, It is one big family in Christ! It is the body of Christ and in it I have fellowship, in it I have communion with both the angels and saints.

So yes when I come before God throne to give praise in Christ Jesus, I like the psalmist before me will invite the host of heaven to join me, when I adore God I do so with them, when I request they ask with me. Praying in the communion of saints is a teaching that has it foundations in scriptures and has continued from the earliest Christians till this day.

When you lift contradictory teaching keep in mind you are the person puting a limit where God has put none and when you accuse italo of misunderstanding the bible please kindly note that you are accusing all Christians from the earliest times of been ignorant thus self righteously declearing that Christianity started with Calvin.

P/s which passage in Hebrews did you quote? I need to look at it.

italo:
And these 'dead' and 'asleep' saints do pray and rejoice about earthly happenings. No?

You don't know the meaning of "bigot."

A bigot doesn't listen to reason.

You don't call someone who provides superior argument to yours a bigot.

The bigot is the one who wants to force his stupidity on others...irrespective of reason. And that is you.

E.g you said Mary's motherly role ended when Jesus started preaching.

You said Jesus' time had come in John 2 when Jesus said categorically that "my time has not yet come."

Stop making a fuss over the issue of Mary being the mother of Jesus. If Mary still plays her motherly role today, then Joseph, unarguably, plays his fatherly role also. Where is the position of God, then? Anyway this is not to be discussed here.

Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing. And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
6. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished: Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun.
10. Whatever your hands finds to do, do it with your might;, for there is no WORK, or DEVICE or KNOWLEDGE or WISDOM in the grave (world of the dead) where you are going.

Remeber that the martyred saints were 'asleep' until the fifth seal was broken making them cry out for vengence. After this, they went back to their state of rest, waiting for the day of resurrection.
How does this passge affirm that a saint who has gone into eternity prays for the saints who are still on earth?

The Scripture is not only about the words in it , but also about the right interpretation of the words. Come out from your doctrinal bigotry and accept the truth.

italo:
My questions again:

Offering is not prayer?

Martyred saints can only pray for punishment and not for blessing?

Offering sth can sometimes, but not always, mean prayer. The saints on the earth prayed and the elders offered the prayers to God as incense. Nothing concerned the elders with 'praying'. This is like someone delivering a message in a parcel to a king through the king's servant. The duty of the servant is to deliver the parcel and go his way. The elders 'offered' or 'presented' the incense (prayers) to God only.

Stop where the word of God stops. Do not make unnecessarily extrapolations to form bases to unscriptural beliefs. The martyred saints cried for vengence and were told to continue 'resting' or 'sleeping' until others are also killed and it stopped here. Even the blood of Abel also cried for vengence.
1. Can you give me a scriptural example where a saint who has gone into eternity prayed for another saint on earth?
2. Do you want me to believe that the saints who are 'resting' or 'sleeping' or 'dead' still have knowledge of what happens on earth even now?

italo:
What is costly?

Offering is not prayer?

Martyred saints can only pray for punishment and not for blessing?

Do not establish falsehood here. They cried out to God for vengence b/c of their death and that was all that happened. Do not extrapolate unnecessarily in order to have a backup as regards some unscriptural teachings

italo:
What is the difference between the two in bold?

Martyred saints did not die?

Chai! Anti-Catholicism is a mental illness!

I am not any church fan, and I feel sorry for you for being a religious bigot. I go with anyone who rightly interpretes God's word, and not b/c any church has it as a dogma or doctrine. You are too hardened to learn the truth from others b/c you have held on to a particular doctrine for so long. Concerning your questions, both of them are 'dead' or 'asleep' or at 'rest'.

italo:
Get it clear...offering is prayer.

If the martyrs prayed for sinners to be punished, they can pray for Christians to be blessed.

Costly and twisted inference or conclusion.

italo:
So offering something to God... is not prayer?

Crying to God to punish someone ...is not praying to God for the person's punishment?

Get it clear. When a saint prays on the earth, the elders carry such prayers in the form of incense and present it to God. Their business is that of 'presentation' and not that of 'praying' to God. No being in heaven created by God is capable of praying for the saints on earth.
Yes, the martyrs cried out to God for vengence which is a sort of prayer for vengence. Now how does it concern a saint who has gone into eternity praying for one on earth?

italo:
*contradiction alert!

Which one we go take now?

The saints are sleeping...or they are crying out?

Can you see where your bias and being quickly judgemental have taken you to?
No.3 talked about the martyred saints crying out for vengence.
No.4 talked about the saints who died and their inability to intercede for the saints who live on earth. When the saints die, we say that they are 'asleep' in death and will be woken up in resurrection. So think rightly before castigating anyone.

italo:
Rev6:10 they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”

The same ones that offered that prayer against sinners can offer prayers for saints.

The elders who offered the prayers of Saints to God were praying for the saints.

The elders did not pray for the saints, but only offered to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
The martyrs only cried for vengence for their death and not praying for anyone.
Your assumption or inference is very costly.

Jusmudi:
Jesus dn't intercede, he gives u wat u want
Bros if we continue, u ll nt accept my own reason/s nd I ll nt accept all bt we must learn nd am ready 2 learn if u can convince me

Bro. I love the way you reason. I also learn from people, once they speak the truth. Jesus is the only Mediator christians have. Know that intercession is a critical work done by any mediator.

italo:
No 1: there are many forms of prayer. Offering incense or offerings or fasting or sacrifice or another person's prayer or anything else to God...is prayer in itself.

No 2: you agree that elders carry our prayers to God. You must also agree that those in heaven pray to God to avenge their death on those who killed them. So you believe people in heaven can carry our prayers to God and can pray for you to be punished if you deserve it...

But they cannot pray for you to be blessed if you deserve it?

For the first time in your life, THINK!

I know I have to think but who are those in heaven that can offer prayers to God for the saints?

Jusmudi:
Bros read dt place again abt those rejoicing nd u ll understand it.
Secondly abt d saints praying, yes Dey prayed nd d Elders nd d living creatures took dia petitions 2 God
Thirdly mat 18:10 "reminding the pipo dat d angels in heaven always see d face of my father" intreceding
further more u mentioned abt I timothy 2:5 yes Jesus is d only mediator, yes He his because he is d only person who brought us closer to God
Finally I ll commend ur effort 4 Blivin dt dere is God, Angels, Mary, saints, Elders, nd four living creatures, I Bliv wit tim u ll accept dis
Thanks broda

Thank you also. Know that even the angels cannot pray for the saints. They only carry the messages/prayers of the saints on earth to God, but never do the praying themselves. They act as messengers and not intercessors. There are only three people that intercede for the saints living on earth-
1. The saints living on earth do pray for their fellow saints on earth.
2. The Holy Spirit who helps the saints on earth to pray to God.
3. The Lord, Jesus Christ.

italo:
Rev5:8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Right now in heaven, the elders are offering my prayers to God.

Alleluia!

Yes, the elders offered the prayers of the saints to God in the form of incense. . When the saints on earth pray, the elders present the prayers to God, but never do the praying themselves.

Jusmudi:
1. Read Rev;5;8
2. 1Timothy 2:1-4
3. Rev 6:10 Note: Dey cried out wit a loud voice , ' O sovereign Lord, holy nd true, how long b4 u ll judge nd avenge our blood on those who dwell on earth?" this verse mentions believers who are in heaven praying to the Lord regarding those on earth.
4. Luke 15:10 Jesus says "just so, I tell u. There is joy b4 the angels of God over one sinner who repents." who are those who rejoice? This could refer 2 Angels, saints in heaven, Christ or most likely all of the above. If those in heaven are aware of those on earth who repent, could it also be true these same saints are praying for the repentance of those who are lost?
5. Jas 5:6-18

1. The prayers are from the saints on earth. No saint who has gone into eternity can intercede for the saints living on earth.
2. Was Paul writing to dead saints or to those still living on earth at that time? Read 1 Tim.2:5.
3. They did not pray for anyone on earth, but cried out for vengence for their death.
4. The saints in heaven are resting (sleeping) waiting for the resurrection day. It is obvious the joy is not done by the saints who are asleep. The angels do the rejoicing over one sinner that repents on earth.
5. I don't understand how the place you quoted relates to the topic discussed.

Only christians who are still alive on earth can pray for their fellow christians. The dead or christians who have gone into eternity cannot do so. Remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Christians pray through ONLY one Man to God- Jesus Christ.

Samdurance:
Is it that God dont know that the Devil would do such a thing? Guy Lets think.

God knew that it would happen but has given man 'free will'. That was why He only gave Adam instruction on what to do, yet did not force Adam to do so. Even the devil was created by God.

FeestoNOVA:
Does it mean that God can sometimes be foolish or that verse has a deeper meaning....

God is not foolish in any way. The passage tries to show God's omniscience in comparison to the wisdom of man.

PAGAN9JA:
why your god speak only in jewish language? ur god is ethnocentric!


science is not a opposite factor to God. Science is a branch of study! Your reasoning has no relation to what we are discussing.

Yes, science is a physical branch of study. The word of God is fathormed spiritually by the help of the Holy Spirit. This is why those who don't believe in God will always get confused with the word of God. Such people do not have what it takes to interprete it rightly.

chuna1985:
As I have said already, evolution is something takes millions of years to completely occur. We will live n die without witnessing any. our generation starts n ends in 100 years.

Ok. Let those who will be alive wait for such wonderful set of humans that will evolve from primates. But I have not seen a mango tree evolve to an orange tree. Maybe evolution does not cover plants but animals only.

PAGAN9JA:
believe watevr u want . idgaf.

just dont show me your stubborn attitude. and dont drag my people and nation into backwardness. silly fellow

Thanks for your insult/compliments. I choose to remain an academically educated, but backward fellow on what science has said. The word of God is clear on the creation of man by God Himself.

stinggy:
What do we call this if not MENTAL SLAVERY
You know there are loopholes, you will rather not ask questions because you were brought up to swallow everything thrown to you.
But you would rather question Science that provides a more rational perspective.

Ohh, you can't ask questions so as not to be considered as 'less spiritual'.

No one says you should not ask questions and this does not make anyone less spiritual. When the bible has made it clear on the creation of man by God, what other questions have you to ask? The scriptures are not understood by human wisdom or discoveries. It is only through the help of the Holy Spirit, who reveals to christians the right interpretations to God's word. The more researchers want to contradict the word of God by scientific discoveries and theories, the more confused they will be. God is the greatest of them all!

PAGAN9JA:
Those are the words of men . God did not go to school to speak or write in human tongues and God is not a jew. those are the words of jewish men.

Science is not a person. science changes. its a subject of study and research, trial and error. it yields results. your device u r using now to type is a product of science.

I do not need arguing with you. How can God go to school and learn when every language on earth originated from Him. Check the bibilical story of the 'Tower of Babel' that I quoted in one of my posts. God is Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent! I do not care if you doubt this but I believe it. How do the original /natural raw materials that are used in the production of these devices come about?