₦airaland Forum

Syncan:
My question was if they were born again, why were they not with the Holy Spirit? See what you said below:

There is a difference b/w the Holy Spirit coming into one's life as a result of being born again, and one being FILLED with the Holy Spirit (baptism of the Holy Spirit). When one is born again, God sends the Holy Spirit into the life of the person. Nevertheless one needs to be filled with the Holy Spirit so that he can work for God and walk with God effectively. Already anyone who believed had the Holy Spirit in him, but the apostles laid hands on believers so that they would be filled with the Holy Spirit. One of the evidence of this is speaking in toungues.

italo:
It is up to you to answer these simple questios...or be scared of them.

See how simply scholar8820 answered. If it's you, you'll write a meaningless essay and still not attempt the question.

I know my essays are meaningless to you and your group, but meanningful to those with open hearts. Go back and read what I have said about it. Henceforth, I will not answer any of your questions that I have clearly attempted before. I have told you that you read people's posts in a hurry to find errors, without understanding them.

Ubenedictus:
sorry paul didn't say one was saved before baptism certainly not what Rm 6 is saying. It isn't saying "baptism symbolised what you have already received", it actual says "in baptism you were buried with him" and you were raised with him, put simply, in baptism you received savation.

Sorry, he did not put it or inferred it that in baptism anyone will receive salvation. Baptism is a 'symbol' of one dying and being raised with Christ. The actual event of salvation occurs spiritually before one is baptized physically. When one goes to the water to be baptized, he is not going there to be saved, but to demostrate symbolically or physically his fellowship in the death and raising of Christ.

Syncan:
Interesting @ bold. We know that, when a person is born again,the Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person’s life ( 1 Corinthians 6:19 ). If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then he does not belong to Christ ( Romans 8:9 ). So why is it that these men in Ephesus did not have the Holy Spirit,
when you say they are born again already?

Acts 19:4 Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of REPENTANCE, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is on Christ Jesus.
5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
I say again that they were believers b/c they believed the gospel of Jesus (vs. 1). Here we see two baptisms-John's baptism and the baptism commanded by Jesus.

1. Being that they were believers, they had been saved, not by John's baptism but b/c they believed in Jesus.
2. Having believed and been saved, they had to go through baptism in the way Jesus commanded it.
3. Paul then baptized them in the name of the Lord Jesus before they became filled with the Holy Spirit.

italo:
Seeing that Paul only received the Holy Spirit, was baptized and had his sins washed away, when Ananias got to him, are you saying a person can be saved, yet not receive the Holy Spirit, and remain with his previous sins?

Cc Barnabaseloka

Up till now, you are still hardened in your heart.
Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house, and laying his hands on him said 'Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and, be FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
18. Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was BAPTIZED.

Ananias did not need preaching to Paul again about salvation b/c Jesus had already met him on his way to Damascus. In Vs. 11, Paul was already praying, which I believe was that of repentance and believing in Jesus. This was manifest when Ananias called him 'Brother Saul'. It clearly showed that Paul had repented and believed. The only work Ananias did there was to pray for Paul to see again and to baptize him. Note also that Paul received his sight, was first filled with the Holy Spirit before he became baptized (Vs.17).

In summary, Paul repented, believed in Jesus, was filled with the Holy Spirit and was baptized. Only those who have been saved will be filled with the Holy Spirit and be baptized with water or vice versa.

Ubenedictus:
that is what YOU are saying, that was certainly not what Christians before calvin were saying all the way back to the apostles. Born again was alway water and spirit, it didn't preceed water nor spirit.

I hear what you say, but I submit that it is a latter day manipulation not a Christian truth.

all you need to do is continue reading.

32 Late as it was, he took them to wash their wounds, and was baptised there and then with all his household.


The apostles didn't separate faith from baptism, it is yoy who do so hence the reason why paul will say in Rm 6 "baptism which unite us to Christ".

I don't know who Calvin was and I do not wish to know. Everyone with an open heart will easily understand what I have written concerning being 'born again'. All Christians believe that being born again preceeds water baptism, except you and few others who are yet to come to terms with this truth.

Water baptism does not save a sinner, but only the word of God and the Holy Spiriit. Water baptism is a 'physical' replica of what has 'spiritually' happened to anyone who is born again. It conotes how one has died with Christ (dipping in water) and the way one has risen with Christ (raised from the water) unto newness of life. Water baptism uses physical illustration to explain to one who is born again what really happened to such life spiritually. The 'spiritual' (being born again) MUST take palce before the 'physical' (water baptism).

italo:
At what point was Paul saved?
At what point were his sins washed away?
Cc scholar8200

Go back and read what I have written on Paul and his conversion.

Syncan:
Note that by the bold, you successfully eliminated both water and the Holy Spirit from Jn 3:5. Well done.

Meanwhile, as a follow up see the below:

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
19:7 And all the men were about twelve.


The people Paul met in this passage, at what point were they born again?

See what Acts 19:2 says: he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED? This showed that they were born again b/c they have believed in Jesus. You misunderstand me. I said that water baptism can take place before one is filled with the Holy Spirit, or one can be filled with the Holy Spirit before water baptism. But one MUST be born again (repent and believe in Jesus) before the two above will take place.

I did not eliminate water and the Holy Spirit. The word of God, which symbolizes 'water' is the gospel one hears as a sinner, repents and believes in Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts the sinner of his sins as he hears the word of God. These two work in the life of the sinner to bring him to the point of being born again, before water baptism takes place.

Ubenedictus:
To answer your other questions
and i submit, that to be born again and to be baptised are exactly the same thing.


no sir,
to repent and accept Jesus is a good thing but that isn't what the bible means by born again, to be born again is to receive new life by water and the holyspirit, and the water is really water and this has been the consistent belief and understanding of all Christians for abt 1700yrs until calvin reformed the reformation, anyone who it defining it differently is making a new doctrine unknown to all older christians and playing with the word of God. It is of these "latter teaching" that scriptures rightly warn us about.



my dear water is used as a symbol for things in scripture apart from "physical water", nobody is argueing that, instead I am saying for the passage at hand the literal water is the exact meaning of the passage, the practice of all early Christian and the consistent belief of christian, the latter teaching been inventions of men!

Note: One can be baptized with water before being filled with the Holy Spirit or vice versa. Nevertheless, one MUST be saved (born again) before any of the two above takes place.

In Acts 16:30-32, the jailer and his household heard the word of God and believed on the Lord Jesus. This showed that they were saved, i:e born again by the word of God they heard, before they were baptized with water in Vs.33.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word
47. Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptised who have received the HolySpirit just as we have?
48. And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of the Lord...
Here we can see that they did not say a word with their mouths. They only believed in their hearts and they became filled with the Holy Spirit, even before water baptism. We know that the Holy Spirit is meant for believers in Christ. Why would one who had not been saved from his sin, as a result of not being baptized with water, be filled with the Holy Spirit?

All i want you to understand is that one becomes born again (saved), which takes place spiritually as a result of (through) the word of God one hears and believes and the Holy Spirit. This is what John 3:5 means.

italo:
Believing is part of baptism.

The baptism we are talking about...is it the same one Peter said is for remission of sin in Acts2:38?

Do you also believe Barnabaseloka when he says Peter meant the opposite of what he wrote?

Or did Peter write the correct thing?

I thought I have told you to quote me exactly. I did not write that Peter meant the opposite of what he wrote. Do not try to trap people so that they will contradict the scriptures. It will not work out for you. Quote what I have written as it is.

Ubenedictus:
1. To answer your other questions
and i submit, that to be born again and to be baptised are exactly the same thing.


2. no sir,
to repent and accept Jesus is a good thing but that isn't what the bible means by born again, to be born again is to receive new life by water and the holyspirit, and the water is really water and this has been the consistent belief and understanding of all Christians for abt 1700yrs until calvin reformed the reformation, anyone who it defining it differently is making a new doctrine unknown to all older christians and playing with the word of God. It is of these "latter teaching" that scriptures rightly warn us about.



my dear water is used as a symbol for things in scripture apart from "physical water", nobody is argueing that, instead I am saying for the passage at hand the literal water is the exact meaning of the passage, the practice of all early Christian and the consistent belief of christian, the latter teaching been inventions of men!

1. Being BORN AGAIN and being BAPTISED with WATER are never the same thing. Being born again PRECEEDS (occurs first before) being baptised with water.

2. You mean that one has not been born again (saved) if as a sinner, hears the salvation message and accepts Christ into his life (believes in Jesus)? This your belief is erroneous.
Acts 16:30 ... Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31. So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.

Ubenedictus:
i think rm 6 should free you from the constant jumping and dodging you have been doing.

Rm 6:4

So by our baptism into his death we were buried with him, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the father's glorious power, we too begin living a new life

this shows us that the new life we are talking about is giving to us in baptism as we are buried with Christ and rise to newness of life. This my dear is a very clear passage and it also makes it clear that the birth of water and spirit is truly of water and spirit. It is certain baptism.

Unless ofcuz you believe paul was talking about "the word"....

Rom.6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Paul showed the 'significance' of baptism here, which is 'walking in the newness of life'. As we are baptised, it shows that we have died with Christ. As we are raised from the water, it shows that we have risen with Christ unto 'living in newness of life'. Paul used this to demostrate what water baptism meant i.e its significance in our lives. It is not at the point of baptism that one is saved. One is saved before going for water baptism, which shows physically how one has died with Christ and risen with Him into living a new life.

Lateralmaths:
.

Hebrews 6
1 So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. 2 You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

7 When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8 But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.

9 Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don’t believe it applies to you. We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation.

look at verse 9 properly.

Why did you stop at Vs.9?
10. For God is not unjust to forget your WORK and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have mnistered to the saints and so minister.
11. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope UNTIL the END.
12. That you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

sportsmaster:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered [b]one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

You have not answered my question. You quoted only the scriptures to lay hold on your claim. Let me give you more of the scriptures.

Ez.18:24 But when a RIGHTEOUS man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? ALL the righteousness which he has done shall NOT be REMEMBERED because of the unfaithfulness of which he is GUILTY and the SIN which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
Mt.7:21 Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the WILL of My Father in heaven.
Gal.5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanliness, lewdness.
20. Idollatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissemsions, heresies.
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, AND THE LIKE, of which I tell you BEFOREHAND , just as I also told you in time past, that those who PRACTICE such things WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
1 john 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning...
Rev.2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, REPENT and DO the first WORKS, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place- unless you REPENT.
10 ..... Be FAITHFUL until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Mt.24:13 But he who ENDURES to the END shall be saved.
Rev.21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death.

Go back and read Heb.10:23-24 which you quoted.
Heb.10:26 For if we sin WILLFULLY after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. Of how MUCH WORSE punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

I tell you that 'once saved ever saved' is from the 'darkest part' of hell that the devil has used to make christians careless in the way they live their lives.
What shows that one is a new creation is not just the inner cleansing, but also the FRUIT (works) of the person.

Answer my question. Will one who had been saved, yet engages in sexual immorality, and dies in such lifestyle going to inherit the Kingdom of God?

sportsmaster:
the Problem is you are not submissive enough to learn from your pastors.
The scripture you even quoted where Jesus said the "Holy Spirit will teach u all things",you failed the interpretation,you took it out of context.

If the Holy spirit is to teach us all things,then there will be no need for Ephesians 4:8-13,there would be no need for the Pastors,teachers and other ministry Gifts.

Always have precise understanding of any subject before you start arguing about it

Maybe you are one of those who swallow pastors' messages hook, line and sinker, all in the name of 'rhema' or 'inspired messages'. No pastor is greater than the word of God or the Holy Spirit. It is true that pastors preach or teach the word of God, but you have to be wise like the 'Bereans'. If not you will easily be deceived these days.

You believe in 'once saved ever saved'. Let me ask you a simple question. Christians know that 'sexual immorality' is a sin. When someone who had been saved engages in sexual immorality and dies in such lifestyle, will the person go to heaven?

Ubenedictus:
lol

you have again swaped water for word.

Maybe you should check roman 6.

1. And what do you have to say as regards Rom.6?
2. John 3:5 talks about being BORN AGAIN and not about WATER BAPTISM as you might have thought.
3. If one repents of his sins on hearing God's word and believes in Jesus, is he born again?
4. It is not everywhere the word 'water' is mentioned in the bible that it signifies 'physical' water. It can also signify the 'Holy Spirit' as well as the 'word of God'.
This is what we have been trying to make clear here.

NumberOne2:
I asked this question before and it was ignored:
You probably know or heard of Atheists who were once Born again Christians but now deny God. They even convince other Christians to fall from the faith (to deny God's existence).
So will this Atheist also make it to Heaven because they were ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED?

So sportsmaster, is the above Atheist still saved?

NO.

MuttleyLaff:
https://i57.tinypic.com/34sp9j4.gif


There is something about your earlier "tearing of clothes" and the "as a result of the 'sacrificing' vow"
What is this 'sacrificing' you're on about?
Sacrificing as how? You dont mind explaining exactly what that is about and what you really mean?

I have done all the explanations in the first two posts. In summary, I wrote that Jephthah would offer 'whatever' (human or animal) that came to meet him unto God. And it (whaever that came to meet him) would be offered in the form of 'burnt offering' unto God. This is the 'sacrifice' I have written about.

Which one is important to God: the DAY that one worships God or the LIFE of one who worships God?

The question is: What happens to such life after he/she has fallen? Does the life remain the same or is it changed positively?
Every genuine fall under the Holy Spirit goes with a positive change of life. Anyone who has fallen under the power of the Holy Spirit will testify of it. If nothing positive happened in one's life after the fall, sorry, you fell on your own.
I have fallen once, and my life has undergone positive changes after the fall.

Note: it is not every child of God that will fall when the Holy Spirit starts moving in the midst of His people.

brocab:
Acts 2:38 "Peter said: repent and be baptised for the remissions of sin.

So where did the Catholic Church get this information from? Baptising infants, and what is the Churches gain believing in such unscriptural doctrines.
Galatians 4:4 "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, Born of a woman.
Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son not bear the quilt of his father, nor the father bear the quilt of the son, The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself.
Matthew 18:3 "Jesus said Assuredly I say to you unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:14 "Jesus said, Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
When we read this scripture these children weren't even touched by Jesus as yet, and Jesus had already said clearly these children are sinless.

So where did the Church go wrong-it is plain and simple, Satan has plans to take with him' many into Hell.

If you have enough knowledge you could read between the lines and see for yourselves baby baptism isn't written in the bible as such.
And the Lord said: unless we become as little children we will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
With this scripture alone shows the only way to God is become as little children, which now proves babies to a curtain age are sinless, and the baptism is used for the remissions of sins.

So these babies have been baptised into nothing.

Bro. you hit the nail on the head as regards infants being sinless according to what Jesus said. The word of God never talks about infant baptism anywhere in it.

MuttleyLaff:
Respect. Have a kolanut.

Am sure you're joking or just messing about especially after I had posted "as it is the pride and joy of every father, to hold the hands of their daughter down the aisle and hand over her hand in marriage to an eligible male."

Of course I do, Hannah's case and Jephthah's are chalk and cheese or apples and oranges
Hannah was expecting a child and promised that child to God
Jephthah, on the other hand wasnt expecting his child, he didnt bank on his child first meeting him, so surely never had her in mind for a/the promise
I can relate with Jephthah, if the shoe was on the other foot, I think I as well, would tear my clothes, tear my clothes in anguish for something I didn't plan to come out the way it has.
It must have been painful and that is why emotions took the better of Jephthah
In fairness, him and his daughter, soon accepted and succumbed to carrying out the relevant and appropriate vow

Let's digress a bit, as you seem so fixated with "tearing clothes" and so building your case on or around it
"Tearing clothes" is a Jewish custom, usually done to publicly show, outrage over something, response to a death, anguish, grief out of loss, express condemnation of something, express going through pain and sorrow etc

Esther 4:1
When Mordecai learned about all that had been done, he tore his clothes,
put on burlap and ashes, and went out into the city, crying with a loud and bitter wail.

Acts 14:13-14
14But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes
and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:
15“Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you.
We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God,

Genesis 37:29
Some time later, Reuben returned to get Joseph out of the cistern.
When he discovered that Joseph was missing, he tore his clothes in grief.

1 Kings 21:27
And when Ahab heard those words, he tore his clothes
and put sackcloth on his flesh and fasted and lay in sackcloth and went about dejectedly
who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

I concur to what you posted on Israelites tearing their clothes. So, it is not that I am fixed to the issue of 'tearing of clothes'. I used it to show the emotions exhibited by Jephthah when he saw his only child.

MuttleyLaff:
Sorry if I had offended you and it came out the wrong way, I only posted it and meant it in a light-hearted way

Its differences in opinions like this, that makes the world go round

He wasnt expecting a human being, talkless his daughter
He tore his clothes in sorrow and anguish on sighting his daughter, because he knows according to the vow made she is now sentenced to a lifetime of celibacy, dedicated to the service of God for life, be unmarried, abstain from sex, hence no kids or hope of grandkids.
In effect, she technically is about to become a nun.
Is that harrowing enough as the joy of every father, is to hold the hands of their daughter down the aisle and had over in marriage to an eligible male.
This is or none of that is going to happen, hence the public demo and anguish

I was not offended by what you said about me. Not at all. Do not mind the harsh tone I used in the beginning. Everyone is entitled to his opinions.

If it was for a life of celibacy, Jephthah would not have torn his clothes. It would have been something pleasant to him that his daughter was to be dedicated to God, even as a virgin. I hope you remember about Hannah and Samuel? When one is dedicated to God to serve Him, or dedicates himself to God, it does not call for anguish and sorrow, but of joy. I still believe that Jephthah tore his clothes to show how painful and sorrowful it was for him to have sighted his only child, as a result of the 'sacrificing' vow he made to God.

[quote author=MuttleyLaff post=35004652]If am not mistaken, you're one of those, who 9 times out of 10, jumps in threads with both feet, so I am not surprised of your post above disputing there's one vow instead of two vows

EXAMPLE of two places in a sentence.
I am going to going to London AND I will head off to the US
How many destinations am I going to? 1 destination or 2 destinations?

EXAMPLE of two items in a sentence
Bread AND butter
How many consumables in that sentence? 1 or 2?

WHATEVER of course, means everything or anything and that is including WHOEVER or WHOMSOEVER
but the next context in Judges 11:31, for obvious, excludes WHOEVER or WHOMSOEVER,
which is why n the b-part of Judges 11:31, "IT" is used instead of other pronouns such as "HIM" or "HER"
This to specifically indicate that this b-part or if you like, second vow, as nothing to do with humans but more to do with animals

/quote]
You can say what you want to say about me in this thread. I read all the posts that were written before me before putting in my own analysis. What is clearly seen there is that Jephthah did not make TWO vows but ONE. The second statement there completes the first. The first is that 'whatever' (human or animal) that came to meet Jephthah belonged to the Lord (who would receive the 'whatever'). While the second is that Jephthah would offer it (the whatever that meets him) as a burnt offering (an offering that must pass through FIRE). I wonder why Jephthah would tear his clothes in sorrow and anguish on sighting his daughter, if it was not for the burnt offering vow he made to God.

emrain:
Only a fool will argue that she wasn't made a human suya.

Meanwhile, this is just a fictional story to help people control their tongue. Do not try it at home, it's not a true life story.

So you believe that this is a fiction? Why would the daughters of Israel lament four days each year as a custom in Israel for someone in a fictional story?
I agree with you that it teaches people to control their tongues.

italo:
1. So as St Paul picked his pen and started writing, when he got to Rom 2, God's teaching was that Gentiles can be judged by their conscience...

Then he continued writing, when he got to chapter 3, God's teaching changed to 'Gentiles will not be judged by conscience anymore?'

2. CCC 1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."

3. Meaning people can be saved without being born again or repentance?

Also show me where the Bible said the bold.

I do not need arguing with you any longer for you are so confused, yet unteachable. Paul made the Jews know in Rom.2 that they should not boast of having the law, but that God would justify them by obeying the law. He went ahead to tell them that the Gentiles, though without the law, had it written in their hearts. When they did good or bad, their conscience would either excuse or accuse them respectively. In Rom.3 Paul made it clear HOW God justifies ANYONE (jews and Gentiles) NOW. it is no more by the LAW, but by FAITH in Christ Jesus. After Jesus paid the price for the sins of the world, it is through FAITH (believing in Jesus) that God justifies anyone today. Paul was not writing to babies, but to those who had grown and could make life decisions.
You ask questions to trap people, just like the pharisees to Jesus. You don't really want to understand or learn from others.

How will a two-year old understand the gospel when he cannot even make life decisions, not to talk of making decision to follow Christ?

2. What you have written here is only from the ideology and philosophy of men. The word of God did not teach it.

3. You made assumptions to trap me, which made me not to answer you. Now you have asked another one so that what you have concluded by yourself would have a foothold. I will answer you like this:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world THROUGH Him might be saved.
18. He who believes in Him is NOT CONDEMNED; but he who DOES NOT believe is CONDEMNED already, because he HAS NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
1 John 5:11
And this is the testimony; that God has given us ETERNAL LIFE, and this life is in His Son.
12. He who has the Son has (eternal) life; he who DOES NOT have the Son of God DOES NOT have (eternal) life.

You keep dodging the question of the effect/s believing in Jesus will have in a life spiritually?

italo:
1. Is Romans 2 correct that Gentiles will be judged by conscience?

Or is it wrong?

2. Jesus will touch them physically and spiritually.

3. Just assume a person never hears about Christ...or a two-year old...that dies can they be saved?

You do not carefully read people's posts to understand them.
1. Yes, it was correct that the Gentiles would be saved by their conscience in Rom.2. But Rom.3 tells us how ANYONE (Jews and Gentiles) are put right with God TODAY. It is no more of conscience or of the law but ONLY through FAITH in Christ Jesus.

2. What effect/s will the spiritual touch have on such a person?

3. I can't answer your question about the person who has never heard about Jesus b/c it is based on assumptions. How can you tell that he has not heard of it or that he hears it but does not understand?
Regarding a two-year old, he has not come of age to make his own choice of following Jesus. When he dies, God will accept him.

I have read the posts from others and now I will make my own analysis.
It was clear that God commanded the children of Israel not to sacrifice their children as other nations did.

In Judges 11:30, Jephthah made a VOW unto God.
Deut.23:21 When you make a VOW to the Lord your God, you shall not delay to pay it; for the Lord your God will surely require it of you, and it would be sin to you.
22. But if you abstain from vowing, it shall not be sin to you.
Ecc.5:4 When you make a VOW to God, do not delay to pay it; for He has no pleasure in fools. PAY what you have VOWED-
5. Better NOT to VOW, than to vow and NOT PAY it.
Jephthah was so quick to make such VOW, without considering that it could be a human that would come out first to meet him. All he wanted was victory over the Ammonites.

Know that Jephthah did not make TWO vows, but ONE. The second sentence was a continuation of the first. Let us take a look at it:
In Judges 11:31, 'whatever' meaning 'human' or 'animal' that comes out shall surely be the Lord's (showing who would accept the 'whatever' that comes out), and I will offer IT (the whatever) up as a BURNT offering (an offering that must pass through FIRE). You can read the book of Leviticus for further explanation on burnt offerings. So we can see that whatever (human or animal) that came out to meet Jephthah would be given to God in the form of an offeirng that would pass through fire (BURNT offering).

In Judges 11:34, the bible was very careful to state the status of the daughter- she was the ONLY child. This shows how painful it would be on Jephthah in fulfilling the VOW. This pain was manifested by Jephthah in the verse that followed.
In vs. 35, Jephthah tore his clothes and said some heart-touching statements to the daughter in these ways: Alas my daughter! You have brought me low! You are among those who trouble me! For I have given my word (VOW) to the Lord, and I cannot go back on it. Though God did not permit the Israelites to offer their children as sacrifice, yet a VOW remained a VOW, and must be fulfilled.

In vs 36. The daughter, having realised the vow the father took, urged him to fulfil it. This is because the Lord had fulfilled His own part by giving Jephthar victory. So it was left for Jephthar to fulfil his VOW.
In vs. 39, Jephthah fulfilled his VOW by offering his daughter as a BURNT offering unto God, in that she died as a virgin- she knew no man. A custom was set up in Israel to lament her, which proved that she died.
Vs.40 (I will start this way) And it became a custom in Israel that the daughters of Israel went four days each year to LAMENT the daughter of Jephthah, the Gileadite.

1. Why would the daughters of Israel lament four days each year for a person who was not dead?
2. What if it were an animal (as included in the 'whatever') that met Jephthar, would not the animal be used as a BURNT offering to fulfil the VOW? Or would the animal be kept alive when it would be given to God?

@op. True, tithes do not help God, but they help these 'so called' pastors who claim they are 'called' to work in church. How does a pastor without any source of livelihood, apart from the church, take care of himself and his needs? Is it not from tithes and offerings?

sportsmaster:
pardon me bro.i did not quote word for word. but Abraham did not believe God twenty times.it was the first time he believed that it was counted as righteousness.Even after he has been declared righteous,He still doubted God later
see the verses below.notice the bolded text.

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

he clearly doubted God in vs17,but what the scriptures reckons about Abraham is that he is was declared righteous because he believed God.

Ok. I now understand you. But you know that 'believing' God is a continuous process The 'once' you mean is 'initial believing'.Anraham continued to believe God and the promise was fulfilled to him.

italo:
1. Paul wrote that about Gentiles living after Jesus' death...because he spoke in present and future tense, saying:

Rom 2:14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Do you want to edit the scripture and insert past tense there so that Paul can use the verses to talk to people who lived before Christ?

2. My answer to your question: Jesus will touch him.

3. What will Jesus do to the soul of one who never hears about Christ but does good according to conscience...and dies?

This is not english class. I used past tense b/c I was reporting what Paul said, so do not be worked up at all. Yes Paul was writing about the Jews and the Gentiles who were still living after Jesus died, resurrected and ascended into heaven. What you are holding onto is in Rom.2, and Rom.3 is a continuation of Rom.2. So while reading do not stop at Rom.2, go farther than that for better understanding.

Remember that the Gentiles though without the law, would do that which the law required by nature. Being that the law iwas written in their hearts and their conscience bore witness to it, accusing or excusing them.

What I explained in Rom.2 was what Paul wanted the Jews to know about God justifying them by the DEEDSS of thr law. But in Rom.3 Paul made it clear how one would be justified by God today. It is no more of the law (whether of the Jews whom the law was given, or of the Gentiles who had the law written in their hearts, though without the law). One is justified by FAITH in Christ Jesus today (whether Jews or Gentiles). The best way to understand the book of Romans is to read it chapter by chapter. This helps you know which things have gone away and which things have taken over.

2. Your answer 'Jesus will touch them' as regards repentance and believing in Jesus is not clear enough to me. Is it physical or spiritual touch? What effect will the touch have in such life?

3. As regards one who does not believe in Jesus as a result of not hearing about Him but has good works:
How do you ascertain that he has not heard about Jesus? Or is it that he does not understand what is talked about?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
18. He who believes in Him is NOT CONDEMNED; but he who does not believe is CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son Of God
1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has (eternal) life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have (eternal) life.
2 Corinth 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, behold all things have become new.
From the above verses, we can see that ANYONE who has not believed in Christ Jesus (though he has good works) does not have eternal life.

The passages below show that the works of the law do no longer justify anyone before God (whether Jews or Gentiles) but only FAITH in Christ Jesus.
Gal.2:15
We who are Jews by nature and not sinners of the Gentiles.
16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by FAITH in Christ Jesus , even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we might be justified by FAITH in Christ and NOT by the WORKS of the law, for by the WORKS of the law, NO FLESH shall be justified.
Gal.3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would JUSTIFY the GENTILES by FAITH , preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand saying, In you, ALL the nations shall be blessed.
9. So then those who are of FAITH are blessed with the believing Abraham.
23. But before FAITH came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be JUSTIFIED by FAITH.
25. But after faith has come, we are no longer under any tutor.
26. For you are ALL sons of God through FAITH in Christ Jesus.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek...for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
In Christ, God does not recognise one as a Jew or a Gentile but as His child.

italo:
Lying as usual!

Below is what you said:

Those that died before Jesus paid the price for the sins of the world will be judged by their conscience. But after His death and resurrection, God puts anyone right with Himself through his/her faith in Christ Jesus ONLY.

Here's what St. Paul said after Christ's death:

Rom 2:14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Yes, I wrote the bolded, but why do you accuse me of lying? I laugh when I read some of your posts. The way you read some passages in the bible and interpret them directly without checking other passages is quite unimaginable. P/s learn to study the scriptures in order to correlate passages with passages.

I will summarize the verses you quoted in simple terms:
1. Paul made the Jews to understand that God would accept them only if they obeyed the law given to them and not by having the law.
2. He went ahead to point out that if Gentiles who did not have the law obeyed what were written in the law by nature, they would be accepted by God and justified.
3.The Jews who had the law were no different from the Gentiles who did not have the law, yet obeyed it by nature.
4. If the Gentiles obeyed the law, though not having the law, it showed that the law had been written in their hearts.
5. Their conscience also would bear witness of the law written in their hearts in that what they did would either excuse them or accuse them.
6. The jews and the Gentiles, therefore were without excuse in God's sight.

When I said those that died before Jesus paid for the sins of the world, being judged by their conscience, I talk of the Gentiles. Now ANYONE (whether a Jew or a Gentile) is put right with God through FAITH in Christ only, not by the law anymore. I will support this with few scriptures.
Rom.3:9 What then? Are we (Jews) better than they (Gentiles)? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are ALL under sin.
20. Therefore, by the DEEDS of the law, NO FLESH will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21. But NOW the righteousness of God APART FROM the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the prophets,
22. even the righteousness of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ, to ALL and on ALL who believe. For there is NO DIFFERENCE.
23. For ALL (Jews and Gentiles) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
24. Being JUSTIFIED freely by His GRACE (not law) through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Then, Paul told the Jews that anyone who obeyed the law would be justified by God. But now, he has made us know that it is only through our FAITH in Jesus that both Jews and Gentiles will be justified. If you want more passages, I will be willing to post them also.

I ask you again: What will Jesus do in the life of someone who hears the word of God, repents and believes in Him?