₦airaland Forum

italo: How do you lose your soul, if you've done nothing to earn it?

We have succeeded in showing you that you can lose something that you did nothing to earn, period.

That is like me saying that God created the universe from nothing. And then you saying "something has never come from nothing, we have this whole world as an example". I get what your trying to say, but when you compare God's nature and salvation, which are not definable by the world, to something material here on this earth, it doesn't work. Sure, you have given a great example to show what your trying to say, but it doesn't even brush up against what I'm saying because we are arguing two different realms. Your logic works here on this earth. I am talking about spiritual things.

@ i.chucka and 5solas...thanks for the support guys. I'm glad I'm not the only one who can see and recognize these truths. They are hard and difficult to understand, and sound harsh, but those that do understand have a deeper relationship with God and are able to live out these truths with more confidence, knowing that God is sovereign and his will is going to be done. Appreciate it guys!

[quote author=frosbel][/quote]Frosbel, your attacking quite hard on this. Have I debated you before or why so abrasive?

I agree with your first point. If Paul lives a life of sin, he will become a castaway. However, if he does, he would have never been saved in the first place. Those who have tasted the sweetness of God's grace cannot go back to a life of sin, or they were never truly thankful for God's gift in the first place. That is what I am arguing. If someone falls away from the faith, then they never had faith to begin with.

Second, man does not have a choice. God changes mans heart, not man. Man can make choice, but not when it comes to having faith. The Bible clearly states that we were deaf, blind, and dumb to God and his truth. Do we suddenly make ourselves see then? No, we don't. God changes our hearts, our minds, helps us to see and understand. That is why if God wants you saved, you are saved. You may sin occasionally after that, but its never a practice. That is why when you see people fall away from the faith, its because they never had true faith to begin with. They might serve God for a time, but their true fruit always shows. That is why endurance is such an important factor.

So now that its established that God is the one who opens people's eyes and saves them, why doesn't he do that for everyone? Because God has CHOSEN people. He always has. God never changes, right? So if he wanted EVERYONE saved, why didn't he offer up salvation or knowledge for the other nations around Israel? Because he doesn't want all people saved. He wanted all his CHOSEN people saved. That is why God just ordered Israel to destroy the other nations. This is difficult to understand. I expect a lot of fight back on this. But it all makes sense when you see my paragraph above, which cannot be denied. When God wants someone saved, he changes their heart. When God changes someone's heart, does he do it to no effect? No, that person is saved. The one who says God has changed their heart and falls away a year later is the one who is not saved, nor ever was.

Image123: bigd
i'll also ask again. HOW DO YOU LOSE YOUR PHYSICAL LIFE, SANITY AND HEALTH IF YOU'VE DONE NOTHING TO EARN IT. How DO YOU LOSE a complete set of teeth if you've DONE NOTHING TO EARN IT?

Answering a question with a question. Nice one. There is a difference between our earthly bodies and our soul. Our bodies will fade back to dust whether we live righteously or carnally, so I'm not sure where you are going with that.

italo: Firstly, you must know that I'm not getting angry and I'm not trying to convince you. But I cannot leave my emotions out of this because you haven't left yours out of it. If you had, you would have understood these verses which are not mine but that of the Holy Spirit. He is the one trying to convince you, not me. So if you're not convinced, well...

Secondly, the passage does not suggest that Paul does not know who was saved and who wasn't. That is what you decided in your head.

St. Paul said (Romans 11: 17,18): 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.

He knew they were saved! Would they "share in the nourishing sap from the olive root" if they weren't?

Thirdly, was St. Paul saved when he was writing scripture? I'm sure your answer I yes. Then read what he wrote:

1 Cor 9:24-27:  24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Did you see that?

St. Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” This proves that St Paul thought he could lose his salvation. You cant argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if St. Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do you people think that you cannot lose yours?

How very noble of you to invoke the Holy Spirit! Amazing that you are so positive he is working through you. Well, I will also say he is working through me, so I guess we have come to a standstill on that point.

Second, you misunderstand your verse. He says in the very first word "if". That means HE DOESN'T KNOW. He is saying if you are, then you will partake in the nourishment. So your right, IF they weren't saved, they wouldn't partake. You decided something wrong in YOUR head.

I think we understand your last point differently. You are saying that an apostle of Christ, one of the most influential, could possibly fall away from God. God chose them for very important roles, there was no way for them to be disqualified. There is a verse that says God can keep people from falling into sin. If God wants you saved, you will be saved. You act like its up to Paul to earn his salvation and keep it. He never did ANYTHING to earn it. So I will ask my question again that you still haven't answered: How do you lose your salvation if you have done nothing to earn it?

all4naija: What did you want to know than God created man from dust? Is like you're not asking yourself how come about the dust - if you are using such analogy you wrote above to question Atheists. Indeed, your God must provide evidences of where he got what he used to create.

You shouldn't argue about things you have no concept of. If God CREATED the UNIVERSE...he CREATED the MATERIALS to make the universe. There is no evidence of where he got it, he invented it all, created it all. he exists outside our universe, or he couldn't have created it.

Absolutely

italo: Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23).

How can one who reads these verses, then say, that Christians cannot lose their salvation?

Because Paul doesn't know for sure who is saved and who isn't. It is only shown by endurance in the faith. Therefore, those who do not endure, never were saved. It's not that they were saved and then lost their salvation, its that they were never saved to begin with. You assuming they had salvation when they did not. You don't know who is saved and who isn't. People can be accepted back into fellowship if they turn from their sins. We don't know who is saved or not, we just know that those who endure and serve God their whole life are the ones who are truly saved. There is no beating around the bush going on here, your getting angry because your not convincing me. Leave your emotions out of this.

musKeeto: My bad... wish most Christians take that advice too..

With some of the things I have seen on this site, me too man.

musKeeto: Which of the gods exactly? The Christian God, Allah, or Martian's favourite 'The Great Leprechaun'?

Did you see the word Christians in my post? Yes, you did. Your brain is meant to be used to think, friend. I encourage you to start. Your eyes are also meant to see and read things, I suggest you start doing that too.

thehomer: I never said evolution explains the beginning of the world. Just that it explains how humans came to be.

That is like saying science can explain how the butterfly came to be, but not the caterpillar. How can you explain one without the other?

Please show me? I've never heard how humans have come to be before from an atheistic viewpoint.

italo: I don't understand you. The topic of this thread is "can Christians lose their salvation?

What's your answer? Yes or no.

Well gain understanding. I was responding to your last post. If you would pay attention, I say no. That's why you responded to me in the first place.

How can you lose salvation if you've done nothing to earn it?

OLAADEGBU: I only respond to those who post. How do you expect me to respond to Christians who only view threads and not post or make any contributions? Since it is only skeptics that responds to the topic I might as well answer their objections.

Or you could make a post that actually is on topic. You don't have to answer their objections in a thread that isn't designed to debate creationism vs evolution. You are the Christian not making a contribution.

This thread is so derailed lol

D sage: 1.No amount of respect or logical conversation can change the mind of atheists,because to them,you are not rational enough and that is why you believed in an unseen God.

2.many of them are christains before,so they had a strong reason to become atheists.

3.they understood bible more than many of our christains brothen,infact one cant be an atheist without any religion background.

My point is that,as long as they are stiil seen us as fools,dumb,irrational,inexperience etc,you can never had a logical debate with them.

Actually, to be an atheist means you reject God's teachings. They have no greater understanding of God's word than cattle, because they don't commune with God.

If they were Christians once before, don't you think God can bring them back? I.e. prodigal son.

Atheists are actually very logical. Their logic makes perfect sense, because they view everything by what you can see, and that is logical. However, God is not defined by logic, or anything else than man can think of.

We get Atheists to stop thinking we are stupid when we actually have the courage to debate them, not call them fools or burning in hell. Those things have no effect. Win their respect, actually try to argue your side instead of giving up like you, and I think your views will change a little bit.

OLAADEGBU: Can you kindly make your own contribution to the topic or move on if you've got nothing say.

My contribution is by telling you to stay on point. I'll post something worthwhile once we actually get back on topic. If you want to debate things not involved in this thread, then go somewhere else.

Ptolomeus: You can agree or not with fasting. But if someone decides to do, you better get it right.
If you live in the city, try to time travel. Not applicable to fast in an apartment listening to pop music and watching tv plasma, or whirlpool.
I have read about offering seeds, and it's correct. At the end of fasting correspond offer a tithe in grain, but the same shall be burned. That is the traditional way of offering a tithe, not another.

I certainly agree with fasting, its Biblical. I think your being extremely legalistic with your standards on fasting. I agree you should have an increased focus on God, but that doesn't mean you need to leave your home. Practice some self-control and just don't turn on your electronics for goodness sake.

You haven't answered my questions about keeping a clean body if you have no clothes and are in a desert. How do you keep your body clean then..especially if you can't use your own home to wash?

italo: If you don't know for sure, that means it can be lost. If it cannot be lost, then St. Paul would have said "we boast in the CERTAINTY of the glory of God", but he didn't say that, he used the word "HOPE."

And if you trust that God will fulfil his promise, it means you KNOW (are certain). You can't hope for what is certain.

Simple as ABC.

I said we don't know because we can't really prove that God is coming back. Our hope is in what has been passed on to us through the Bible. That is why we have faith...because we don't know. Do you really think there is any way Paul wasn't saved? Do you think there was any doubt as to whether or not he walked with God? The person that truly loves God won't be in the practice of sin.

logicboy: God is supernatural. There is no way to scientifically prove God exist. No way.

Science can not also prove that there is no God. However, it is in the same way that you can not prove that Bigfoot doesnt exist.

I agree with the intention of what your saying. I think that scientific laws can help us. "Something can not come out of nothing". While that debunks evolution, it doesn't help creationism either, because where did God come from? We can say that he exists out of the laws of this universe, but that isn't proving he exists either. Scientifically, it leaves us at a stalemate.

OLAADEGBU: Creation answers all the logical questions that evolution doesn't and that is right thinking. Have you got anything to contribute to the topic if you think otherwise?

I sure do, the OP was talking about Scripture verses and how Christians should have a right attitude. If you wanted a debate about creationism, go find a thread that's actually talking about it. Stop trolling, there are plenty of threads where you can call Christians stupid all you want.

D sage: You're either Deist,agnotist or semi atheist,check my posts very well,did i in one way or the other preaching to atheists?what we're discussing here is,atheists and their arrogant nature by claming that religions people are dumb or irrational and thats why they believes in the scripture.Also their usual copy and paste,or what're you trying to defend here.

Well friend, if you actually read my post, you would see I am a Christian. If you had really read MY post, you would see I never said you were preaching to atheists. I'm saying if you would actually debate them with respect and logical points, you might actually win one over to God. I'm saying you will refine yourself, and it exposes Christians like you with a pathetic attitude. If you aren't supposed to talk to people who don't believe in God, how will you ever save ANYONE?

italo: Romans 5: 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the HOPE of the glory of God.

If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Saviour, why would St. Paul hope?

Because we don't absolutely know for sure. We trust in God and his promises, and we trust and hope that he will fulfill them.

musKeeto: If an nl user says he knows you personally and posts stuff about you on a thread, probably saying you're a serial killer, and then I BELIEVE THAT, does that make you a SERIAL KILLER?

So you're saying the Egyptians didn't want the the Hebrew slaves? Remember how they were treated? Why did Moses leave Egypt?

As plagues were coming down on you, would you want the slaves, if people were dying and your economy was being destroyed?

And I don't know if your a Christian, but the Bible is accepted as infallible by Christians, so its not just people writing stuff.

Even if it wasn't, your arguing complete hypotheticals. Bring something factual to this conversation...

Kingzonly: thank for your point of view...as I had mention be in this tread that saying sorry with your mouth it's not nescessary but with you heart even with your whole body after you accepted you are giuty,fault,siner... Remember a Man who had to son, the younger one request for his own property while his father still alive, he was given to him as he requested but lavish everthing due to his ignorance and after many year he repent and makeup his mind to go back to his father to say sorry, and seek for forgiveness...having hope of becoming one of his father slave not his son again, But due to his abition I mean his objective even when his father saw him, he was very happy, many have told me on this tread that why will they say sorry to God when he know us better, then answer this question,WHY WILL YOU ASK YOUR CHILD TO KNEE DOWN WHE HE/SHE OFFENDED YOU THEN TELL HIM/HER TO SAY AM SORRY MA/SIR, I PROMISE NOT TO DO IT AGAIN, as you also says always to Lord God?

Well its a relationship with God, its just like if you slapped your wife on accident, she can't forgive you unless you actually want forgiveness. It teaches humility and respect. Imagine if you offended a king, you would apologize profusely. Well that get exponentially more serious if you offend the God of the universe. It also brings you back into a good relationship with God.

musKeeto: My argument wasn't that he was a better man. My argument was our image of Pharaoh would be influenced by a one sided account from his slaves.

So we agree that he was a bad man?

Also, not sure if the Egyptians would disagree with the Hebrews. Their Pharaoh was stubborn and didn't listen to advice. He got ten plagues brought from God put down upon them. He had a large amount of his army destroyed, as well as everyone's firstborn sons killed. All he had to do was let the slaves go. If their were polls for Pharaoh, I almost guarantee he would be at 0% likability.

musKeeto: @bigd:
I think most of these stories are one sided. What about the stories of those whom the Israelites took away their land? Canaan for example?
My favorite game, COD, has a saying 'the victor gets to write history' or something like that.
Of course, the Egyptians would have loved their Pharoah so much... and probably would have painted a better picture of him...

The Bible is an ISRAELITE BASED account of history.

Your argument here is that Pharaoh was probably a better man than how the Israelites painted him. This was your argument that I responded to...

Why is creationism being debated here? That has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

musKeeto: @bigd:
I think most of these stories are one sided. What about the stories of those whom the Israelites took away their land? Canaan for example?
My favorite game, COD, has a saying 'the victor gets to write history' or something like that.
Of course, the Egyptians would have loved their Pharoah so much... and probably would have painted a better picture of him...

The Bible is an ISRAELITE BASED account of history.

Ok...I'll ask again. What evidence is there that he was good? The Israelites may have written the book, and they would probably leave out the good, but they certainly experienced the bad things Pharaoh did. Since we have the bad things, and don't have the good things, Pharaoh is a bad man.

I am a Christian, and I disagree with the OP. There are many good reasons to debate atheists:

1) Witnessing opportunity: it is rare, but if you can actually convince an atheist that they are wrong, you have won someone over to God.

2) Honing your own personal beliefs: Why would you just want a bunch of Christians on here talking about how good God is? If you wanted that, go to church. Debating on forums is an excellent way to see if what you think stacks up against what other people think. If nothing else, it refines you.

3) It actually exposes many Christians: there are many Christians that post on this site that really have no idea what they are talking about. When they get destroyed by the atheists and the Christians for making such illogical and stupid statements, it should open their eyes. I have yet to see that on this site, but I have seen it on others. The two big ones I have seen on this site are Rastamouse and Synthsis. They might throw a good point or two out there, but most of their stuff is just garbage that shouldn't be accepted by atheists or Christians.

The root of man's problem is sin. An unwillingness to serve God (unwillingness because we always have a way out of temptation, so to sin is to choose sin over God). The apologizing would not be necessary if we had a proper heart to serve God, as we once did.

Yes he was, his heart was against the Lord. He oppressed God's people. He tried to thwart God's plan with the Hebrews. He tried to kill Moses, the Lord's right hand man. What is the evidence that he was a good man?

I agree that eternal salvation does exist. Once you are truly saved, how could you ever lose your salvation, when you never did anything to gain it?

I think the difference is when someone is not truly genuinely saved, that we see the grossest sins come out, or just outright defiance to God. If you are saved, that means you love God and have given your life over to him for eternity. If you serve God for 20 years, then decide to just start living however you want to, the question isn't "is he still saved?"....the question is "was he EVER saved?" because the true Christian will not stop following God.