₦airaland Forum

honesttalk21:
Do I hold you to your statement that the Bible is corrupt? Is this why you shy away from addressing the ransom used in Proverbs 21:18.

You have many times been sufficiently answered that no one pays for sins but are forgiven directly due to faith and genuine repentance not substitution.

As usual you ended up saying nothing.

Bible been corrupt...you saw where I said according to Aallah muamed Islam...the bible is corrupt....so don't use it


The verse you quoted in prov is not talking of sin but an evil planner dying in the plan he had for a righteous person .... don't mix things up...the Bible is clear and precise.


The discussion is saahih Muslim 2767

Where Christains and Jews are ransome for Muslim sins before going to heaven.


You went about shifting goal post

Saying ransome is figurative
While the rest of the persons or things mentioned there are not figurative...


I went ahead to give 4 more instances of a Muslim been forgiven because of kaaba , black Stone , Muhammad.....which debunked your assertion that Aallah forgive Muslims just like that


Either you are myopic or don't know anything


Like I said I won't respond to your rhetoric again as you are a waste of time.



What is the meaning of RANSOM?

this hijab


i wany to ask

is it the islamic world that invented it?

or some other people like assyrians ,syrians byzantine have been using it?


if they haave been using it , is it cultural or religious?


is hijaab better thaan burqua?


can we find the word hijab and burqua in the Quran?

If looking at a woman arouse a man hence the hijab, so an hijaabi woman. Looking at a man can't she get arouse?

honesttalk21:
Go ahead and bring forth the definition and it's application to your biblical verse Proverbs 20:18

Most definitely not shifting anything. Do you accept one definition/explanation of ransom in your scripture different from literally and insist otherwise for hadith? This is highly deceptive. When you are ready to be impartially honest you are fit for valuable discussion

Alfa leaave the bible it is corrupt dont use corrupt book to justify your delusion

use the Quran and hadiths

we are discussing sahih muslim 2767
the jews and christains will be a raasom for muslims in hell to be able to go to heaven.

which negate your claim that Allah dosent require sacrifice , ransome or a substitution or because of someone or something....that all man will carry there own sins....... that is the arguement


i presented sahih muslim 2767a b d.
i presented hadith that says it was because of eve that women are unfaithful.
i presented facts that your sins are forgiven for going to mecca doing tawaf .
I presented that kissing the black stone takes away sins
I presented that saying prayers praises on Muhammed takes away sin

Let me reserve the other ones

All this negate your claims and put you in a dilemma, you wanna be emotional or angry face your Allah and Muhammad and Quran.

If you can't answer this simple question...you are wasting my time.

And if you still want to use bots to reply and further confuse yourself.
If you go round and round it ... I will ignore you

Answer this What is the meaning of RANSOM ?

honesttalk21:
In Proverbs 21:18, the Hebrew term kopher is often translated as ransom, but it’s more of a figurative expression. It doesn’t imply that the wicked pay for the righteous. Instead, it illustrates how the harm intended for the good often bounces back on the evil, ultimately protecting the upright much like Haman meeting his end on his own gallows or Pharaoh’s army being destroyed while Israel made their escape. In a similar vein, Sahih Muslim 2767 mentions fida (ransom) and makanahu (his place), but it’s important to note that no one bears the punishment of another. Allah, in His mercy, spares those believers who repent, while the place in Hell is reserved for those who truly deserve it. This hadith highlights the themes of divine justice and mercy, rather than suggesting any kind of substitution or literal ransom.


You have long been spoken of in Quran 2:120

Never will the Jews or Christians be pleased with you, until you follow their faith. Say, Allah’s guidance is the only true guidance. And if you were to follow their desires after all the knowledge that has come to you, there would be none to protect or help you against Allah.

Now I know why you are jumping topics
Jews and christians.... the same people that will be your ransom in hell


The same christain waraqa that told Muhammad he was a prophet.

The same Christain nation that protected Muslims when they where chased away in Mecca for there troublesomeness.

The same Christains that Muhammad Allah took there land


The same Christain that Muslims are running to there lands

The same Christain that will be your ransom in hell.


The same Christain that you stole from there book? And claim Quran is complete. But if I asked you what is the name of Adam's two sons in the Quran, Nigeria NEPA will take power.


What is the meaning of RANSOM?

honesttalk21:
How is it relevant to Proverbs 21:18 and who is it paid to?

Our discussion was on sahih muslim 2767 you see when I say you are shifting goal post you become emotional and loose focus.



What is Ransom?

honesttalk21:
Let's first clarify to you who this discussion is truly and actively with.

Proverbs 21:18 reads that the wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous. The Hebrew term kopher refers to a substitute or a price of release, but in this context, it’s not about atoning for someone’s sins. Instead, it paints a picture of divine justice: the evil schemes that the wicked devise against the righteous often end up backfiring on them. Their own downfall becomes the very thing that saves the upright. Just think about Haman, who was hanged on his own gallows, or Pharaoh’s army that drowned while Israel made their escape God cleverly uses the plots of the wicked to shield the righteous. It’s a beautifully poetic way of illustrating that in God’s justice, the wicked often end up delivering the righteous through their own self-destruction.

Hope you better understand this

what is the meaning of ransom?

honesttalk21:
I am not projecting anything. You should ask those you claim were asking questions to explain to you what I wrote about Proverbs 21:18 and what you understood and respond to. When that is clear we can proceed otherwise there is no point.

obiviously no point , since you keep shifting the goal post...

now to make it easier for our readers

i asked again define the meaning of Ransom?

honesttalk21:
Be honest enough to admit your misunderstanding.

Stop projecting your sinking assertion on me.



What is the meaning of ransom?

Lies and propaganda will take you 100 feet high but will need more lies and propaganda to keep it there.




Just one blow of truth..... yakataaa

honesttalk21:
I believe you are more courteous answer my starting question.

What is Ransom?

honesttalk21:
Habibi, understand this: in Islam, Allah’s love is real and profound, but forgiveness is conditional, based on sincere repentance, faith, and righteous deeds. No one takes another’s place. Sahih Muslim 2767 shows Muslims with heavy sins are spared Hell by Allah’s mercy, not because someone else suffers; makanahu simply marks the spot they would have occupied. In contrast, Christianity presents God’s love as free but sacrificial, where Jesus’ death guarantees forgiveness for all who believe, even when they don’t deserve it. Islam emphasizes mercy through personal accountability, while Christianity emphasizes mercy through substitutionary love both teach forgiveness, but the mechanisms are very different.

There are 8 instances in the Quran and hadiths that shows forgiveness is gotten through someone or something, which faults your claim

Now if you can Define Ransom let's start from there?

honesttalk21:
Read and understand without emotion.

try to take your own advice



what is Ransom?

honesttalk21:
You should first clarify what your stance is on who pays for your own sins??

Habibi, you keep saying I’m shifting the goalpost, but you’re missing the basic principle of how Arabic and revelation work.
Words like fida (ransom) and makanahu (in his place) can be literal or figurative, depending on the sentence and theological context. The Qur’an itself uses figurative language often;a barrier of light,a hand of Allah,the face of your Lord yet you don’t take those literally, because context defines meaning.

Now, the hadith doesn’t say Jews or Christians are punished for Muslims’ sins. That would contradict Qur’an 6:164 and 35:18 No bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another. Rather, it describes what happens after Allah forgives certain Muslims their place in Hell is filled by those who rejected God knowingly. Just like Proverbs 21:18 says, The wicked is a ransom for the righteous not that they pay their sins, but that the evil intended for the good returns upon the wicked. You should tell us if misunderstood or any hadith takes precedence over the Quran itself. Do well to answer this question should you respond.

So no, the Qur’an isn’t contradictory it’s precisely consistent; God forgives whom He wills (Qur’an 39:53), judges justly (Qur’an 4:40), and no one carries another’s guilt. The ransom wording is a divine exchange of outcome, not transfer of guilt.

You say don’t quote the Bible, but even your argument relies on the same moral logic scripture teaches everywhere that the wicked often fall into the very punishment they plan for others. You can reject the Bible’s text, but you can’t reject the moral law written on every human heart that mercy and justice belong only to the Creator, not to blood or any other sacrifices.

If anything, this hadith proves Allah’s absolute sovereignty: He alone decides who is saved, who is forgiven, and who faces the consequences of disbelief. There’s no loophole only justice perfectly measured and mercy beyond human logic from the most merciful.

LETS START FROM HERE SINCE YOU MISS THE POINT

Define RANSOME?

honesttalk21:
Exactly and that’s the whole point you just confirmed without realizing it. When Proverbs 21:18 says the wicked is a ransom for the righteous, it doesn’t mean the wicked literally pay for the sins of the righteous it means the very evil or punishment meant for the good ends up falling on the wicked instead. In divine justice, the trap they set for others becomes their own downfall.

That’s precisely how the hadith about makanahu (his place) should be understood. Allah doesn’t make one person carry another’s guilt.

What happens on the Day of Judgment is that some Muslims who repented and were forgiven will be spared Hell and the disbelievers, who rejected God knowingly, will occupy those places in Hell instead. It’s not substitution; it’s redistribution of divine justice.

A fundamental error you make is fixation that sin is paid for not a merciful God being forgiving and able to do that.

Thank you.

What ? I can't believe you said that

How is an evil man planning evil for a righteous and the Lord delivered the wicked in his plan instead of the righteous. How are you mixing things up habibi ...don't make me question your education.

Again you are putting your own words at me ..... our God of the bible is a loving God that will forgive even when we don't deserve it ,as man we can't save ourselves from sin Satan and last day and in his own plan made a way by sending his Only begotten Son to come die and rose again as an assurance of forgiveness of sin and Resurrection to life.

But your Islamic view said No... we asked why? You cooked up claims that he didn't die,we show evidences from the bible and historical evidences , we asked who died in the cross if not Jesus , till date no answer... you all just say Muhammad said so... that is 6oo years after crucifixion.


You say everyone will carry his sins according to Allah Muhammad... I showed you 4 examples from your source that says opposite, instead of seeing the error you went ahead to twist words , but the more you do you expose dark truth about the lies in Islam.


So any Muslim that died MUST be in hell? Wow
So all the 5 days prayer didn't save the Muslims?
Travelling to mecca all won't save a Muslim?

Dear Muslims ask yourself questions ,so heaven is not even sure...you must be in hell? What if is a trick by Allah to keep you there permanently?

honesttalk21:
Now it's a waste of time yet you started a post with what you don't properly understand. My giving clarification rather than being bamboozled is the truth you agree and disagree with by whims?

No one said the Last Day, Heaven, Hell, or Allah are figurative. They are absolute truths. But both the Qur’an and the Bible use figurative expressions to help humans grasp what lies beyond time and space. The Arabic word makanahu (مَكَانَهُ) means his place not his sin. Do you have authentic reports saying sins are transferred from the guilty to the innocent and why? Context defines meaning. In this hadith, it shows that disbelievers take the place that would have been for sinful Muslims, not that they carry their sins. This fits perfect Qur’anic logic: No bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another (6:164); why do you place your misunderstanding of hadith above the Quran?. The ransom here is not an exchange of guilt but a metaphor of divine justice and mercy! Allah forgives whom He wills and fills Hell with those who chose arrogance and disbelief. As Qur’an 2:7 says, Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their eyes is a veil. These are not mere words of punishment but a moral truth not physical. Hearts that reject light end up sealing their own fate.

Even the Bible uses the same style. When God said to Moses in Exodus 3:5 (reflected in Qur’an 20:12), Remove your sandals, for the place where you stand is holy ground, it was not about shoes, it was about reverence. Likewise, in Psalm 91:4, He will cover you with His feathers, God does not literally have feathers or does he? It is figurative for His protection. Jesus himself said in John 10:9, I am the door not a literal door, but the way to salvation. So why reject figurative depth in Islam but accept it in your own Scripture? When the Prophet pbuh said the disbelievers take the place of sinful Muslims, it’s describing Allah’s merciful substitution of outcomes, not a trade of sins. As God says in Hosea 6:6, I desire mercy, not sacrifice. Allah judges hearts not by symbols or showy words, but by sincerity, repentance, and truth. That is justice and that is consistent revelation from Adam to Muhammad (peace be upon them all)

Habibi you are just shifting the goal post...

Your assertion is that Allah dosent require sacrifice or ransome

But when I showed you from the hadith you start twisting it .


See it is either the Hadith is wrong or the writer made a mistake or the Quran is wrong or the Wrriter mix things up

Leave the bible out of your argument it is corrupt book According to Islam Allah Muslims Muhammad. Don't use a corrupt book to justify your sinking argument.


Why do I need to be going back and forth with you as your discussions exposes more of the contradictions in Islam


Ransom is now figuratively when the other words in that hafith is not figurative.

The arabic word you brought up says the same thing... someone was put in the place of someone...a very simple statement which shows loopholes in your argument.

I still wonder how christains will be in hell replacing Muslims to go to heaven....very funny.


A hadith that explains everything simple and precise... if it was not like that it would have said the Muslim will be in hell and taken to al jannah...no need using christains as ransome... what is ransome ....what is in his place...


Alot of people sees this discussions and are asking questions

honesttalk21:
Proverbs 21:18 says the wicked is a ransom for the righteous. Was that a human swap? No,it means God’s justice reverses outcomes and the righteous are delivered, and the wicked fall into the trap they set.

the wicked plan an evil for the righteous the good Lord delivers the rughteous from that evil plan and made the wicked plan to happen on the wicked instead of the righteous.

so was this talking about sin or evil plan?

بِاسْمِ الآبِ وَالاِبْنِ وَالرُّوحِ الْقُدُسِ

(Bismil-'ābi wal-'ibni war-rūḥil-qudus)

I bet to differ sir... the problem is not Muslims the problem is the fundamentalism of Allah Muhammed Hadith Quran tasfir shariah...I can post 100 verses from above mentioned that says exactly what they are saying.

. Sahih Muslim 2767a (Hadith 57, Book 50)
​Narration: Reported by Abu Musa (RA).
​Content: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
​"When it will be the Day of Resurrection, Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire."
(In a different version, 2767d, the Hadith mentions Muslims coming with sins like a mountain, and Allah forgiving them and placing the Jews and Christians in their stead.)

You sir says this because you have travelled, have decorum and believed in human sanctity, mind you when s**t hits the fan you will be a collateral damage.

I have only started reading Qquran and hadiths and taasfir and shariah and it scares me and made me understand what and why Muslims are the way they

John 16:2*

> “They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.



Shukran

honesttalk21:
No soul carries another’s sin. Imam al-Nawawi, Ibn Hajar, and Ibn Taymiyyah all explained that the ransom here is figurative. Allah’s mercy replaces the punishment a believer deserves, while disbelievers enter Hell for their own deeds, not for Muslims.

Islam’s concept is simple. God forgives those who repent sincerely. He sees the heart not the blood of a sacrifice. Allah does not look at your forms or wealth, but at your hearts and deeds. (Muslim)

By contrast, Christianity teaches forgiveness through substitution in Jesus’ death paying for others’ sins. Islam rejects this because it undermines divine justice. How can God punish one for another’s sin?

In Islam, forgiveness isn’t bought or substtuted it’s granted by the Most Merciful to those who turn back to Him.

So instead of calling deep theological reflection “taqiya,” let’s respect truth where it stands. Reason and scripture both testify: Allah’s justice is perfect, and His mercy is personal not purchased.

So now it is figurative?

Is the last day figurative?
Is Allah figurative?
Are Muslims a figurative individuals?
Is Hell figurative?
Is Heaven figurative?
Are Christain and Jews figurative?
So only ransom is figurative.



Haabibi thanks for wasting our time.

Now let me post the full Hadith sahih muslim 2767a 2767b 2767c 2767d

​Hadith 2767d (The Heavy Sins Statement)
​Narration: Also reported by Abu Burda on the authority of his father (Abu Musa', may Allah be pleased with him).
​The Text: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said:
​"There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians."

​Hadith 2767b (The Replacement Statement)
​Narration: Reported by Abu Burda on the authority of his father (Abu Musa', may Allah be pleased with him).
​The Text: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said:
​"No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire."

​Hadith 2767a (The Ransom Statement)
​Narration: Reported by Abu Musa' (may Allah be pleased with him).
​The Text: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said:
​"When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: 'That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.'"


Who is the liar now... who is bereft of Arabic language now....who has been deceived now... who has been playing double standard now?...who is a hypocrite munaafiki now? Who is confused now?who is using lies to cover lies?

honesttalk21:
You quote مَكَانَهُ makanahu,which literally means his place or his position. But in Arabic just like in English word meaning depends on context and sentence use.

For example Jalastu makanahu (جلست مكانه) means I sat in his place but It does not mean I became him or I took his guilt. Similarly, akhadha makanahu means he took his spot, not he bore his punishment.

So in the hadith, when Allah says about a disbeliever this is your ransom (fida) or in your place (makanahu), it simply means the place in Hell that was once deserved by the forgiven believer will now be occupied by someone who earned it through disbelief and sin. It does not mean that the disbeliever is carrying the Muslim’s sins, because that would contradict the Qur’an itself:No bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.(Qur’an 35:18)

If taken literally as substitution, the hadith would oppose this fundamental principle and that is impossible, because authentic revelation never contradicts the Qur’an.

Classical scholars have already clarified this point as I have earlier shown but will repeat again here. Imam al-Nawawi said the hadith is metaphorical Allah will fill Hell with those who deserve it, not that anyone bears another’s guilt.
Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani explained that taking the place refers to vacating the spot that the forgiven believer would have occupied.
Ibn Taymiyyah noted that Allah’s mercy spares believers without injustice each soul is still judged by its own deeds.

So the hadith describes a change of outcome, not a transfer of sin. Indeed, Allah does not wrong anyone, even the weight of an atom.(Qur’an 4:40)

Then sbout “Taqiyyah” Accusations please, let’s be fair in discussion. Labeling every clarification or linguistic explanation as “taqiyyah” (deception) is careless and unhelpful. Taqiyyah in Islamic law means concealing faith under persecution, not lying in argument.

When Muslims explain the Arabic and context of a text, that’s not hiding truth it’s understanding it properly.
Honest debate requires respect, not prejudice.

In Islam, forgiveness isn’t a transaction it’s a transformation of the soul. Allah sees the heart and knows sincere repentance, not empty rituals or showy sacrifices. Say, O My servants who have transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. (Qur’an 39:53)
He forgave Adam without bloodshed, accepted David’s repentance after wrongdoing, and forgave the people of Jonah when they turned back. That shows mercy is not bought it’s granted by God to the sincere.

An aspect of Christianity teaches substitutionary atonement that Jesus literally took the sinner’s punishment but Islam teaches personal accountability and divine mercy. Allah forgives through repentance and righteousness, not through the death of another.

The word makanahu therefore means taking the place in consequence,not bearing someone’s sin. Allah’s mercy replaces punishment, but His justice never shifts guilt from one soul to another.

That balance of mercy without injustice is what makes Islamic tawhid the most consistent vision of God’s justice and compassion.

in aa statement that has ransome... in his place... from hell to heaven, you are now twisting it...you are the one that brought the araabic word....and whwn we look at it with our 5 senses it further exposed your arguement as sinking

now lets look at this a man was kidnapped , and the kidnaapper afrer much pleading decided to release the kidnaapped man under the condition that someone else replace the former... what does this potray ? exaactly what saahih muslim 2767a 2767b 2767d are all saying. but you are here twisting words.

when muslim are backed to a corner to tell u you dont undrstand arabic words , but ask them are you an arab person? is arabic your 1st language?
i have told you habibi dont play that arabic language with me, because nobody has right on araabic language.


I gave you 4 evidences that someone or somerhing paays the price of sin or is because of someone or something a sin is forgiven which bury your argurmement .


may Ruh al - QUDUS open your eyes

honesttalk21:
Let's focus solely on the hadith and keep responses as for one question at a time.

One hadith often misunderstood is found in Sahih Muslim (2767b). It reports that on the Day of Resurrection, Allah will say to every Muslim this is your rescue from the Fire, referring to a Jew or Christian being placed in his stead.

To some, this sounds as if another person bears punishment meant for a Muslim. But the Arabic text and classical explanations reveal a very different meaning one that upholds both divine justice and mercy.

The key word here is مَكَانَهُ (makanahu), meaning his place or his position, not on his behalf. The Prophet pbuh said, then He will make enter, in his place, the Jew or the Christian, into the Fire.

This means the space in Hell that could have belonged to a forgiven believer is now filled by those who truly deserve it because of their own disbelief and deeds. There is no shifting of guilt or punishment, only the completion of divine justice. Every person held accountable for their own choices or would you rather not be accountable? Isn't this a disdainful corrupt practice?

Imam al-Nawawi, commenting on this hadith
saying It does not mean that sins are transferred from Muslims to others. Allah fills Hell only with those who rightfully deserve it.
Similarly, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani explained that the hadith represents Allah’s justice, not substitution.This aligns perfectly with the Qur’an’s core message;no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another;Q6:164, every soul is held in pledge for what it has earned; Q74:38.

Islam firmly rejects the idea of substitiuted atonement. Forgiveness in Islam is not achieved by another’s suffering but by Allah’s mercy and a person’s sincere faith and repentance. The Prophet pbuh said whoever says, there is no god but Allah, sincerely from his heart, will enter Paradise (al-Bukhari 128; Muslim 26).

The Qur’an honors sincere monotheists among Jews, Christians, and Sabians who believed before the final revelation; whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteousness will have their reward with their Lord. (Q2:62)

But it also teaches that once divine truth was completed through Muhammad pbuh, salvation requires full submission to that truth.Whoever seeks a way other than Islam, it will never be accepted from him. (Q3:85)

Sahih Muslim 2767b does not depict injustice. It expresses divine order; mercy for those who believe and justice for those who reject truth. In Islam, every soul stands alone before God, and no one bears another’s burden. That is not only just, it is the very essence of divine mercy.

When someone takes your place what does it mean?


When you substitute something for another what does it mean?


The arabic word you used means exactly what the hadith says

"Makanahu" (مَكَانَهُ) is an Arabic word that means "his place" or "the place of him". It can also be translated to "instead of him" or "in his place", depending on the context.

For example, if you say "جَلَسْتُ مَكَانَهُ" (jalastu makanahu), it means "I sat in his place".
The Arabic words you used simply buttress my point and uphold the hadith 2767 and Bury your altaqiyya of no one dies in place of anyone

In conclusion the Jews and christians will in the place of Muslim because without that Allah won't move them to al jannah

You mean Jews and christians are unbelievers?
You mean we are destined for hell?


You will be suprised

Another thing is that you lied again that the kaaba and kissing of stone is not for forgiveness of sins why are you lying?

That it was a figurative speech, why are you lying habibi ? Do you derive joy in lying? While there numerous hadiths and Quran that confirmed my assertion.

Do you think you are talking to unlearned person in arabic and Quraan and tasfirs ? Please don't do that again I am not your dhimin...


Even sending prayers or praises to Muhammed is for forgiveness of sin...I told you don't go that road with me it will further exposed you and Islam for lies .
From the Quraan and hadiths I have shown you where it was said it was because of Eve women are unfaithful, it was because of Israel meat got rotten .
Why did what they did become transfered to another people ..hope you understand my English
Which automatically destroy your claim

You keep saying everyone will bare there sins but I have showed you 4 avenues that Muslim get there sins forgiven.

Going round the stone
Kissing the black stone
Saying praises or prayer to Muhammed
On the last day christains as ransome for Muslims

Which implied someone is taking or because of someone a sin is forgiven .

I hope my English is clear


Now back to the topic
Sahih Muslim 2767

honesttalk21:
The Crucifixion in Islam
The Qur’an (4:157-158) says plainly they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it was made to appear so to them… Allah raised him to Himself.
Muslims therefore believe that Isa a.s (Jesus) was never defeated or humiliated. Allah protected His prophet from the plot of his enemies.
Who was made to resemble him is not named in revelation so Muslims do not invent a story about his identity or guilt.
The point is not deception but divine justice: the false accusers failed, the prophet was honored, and Jesus will return before the end of time. (Q 3:55)

The Meaning of Ransom in the hadith you mention
The narration you refer to is Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2767?
The Prophet pbuh said that on the Day of resurrection some people from previous nations will enter Hell because of their own sins, not because they are paying for Muslims.
Allah will fill Hell with the guilty from every community, while the believers after being purified where required will enter Paradise.

It does not mean innocent Jews or Christians are punished for Muslims; Islam rejects transferring sin “No soul shall bear the burden of another.” (Q 6:164, 17:15)

The word fida in this hadith is figurative: Allah’s justice requires that Hell contain those who deserve it, and when believers are forgiven, their places are taken by those who merited the Fire by their own disbelief and misdeeds not as a ransom for others.
So it describes divine justice and final distribution, not human substitution.

Hadith of Eve and Bani Israil
The reports such as “Were it not for Bani Israil meat would not spoil…” (Bukhari 3152) are moral reminders, not statements of inherited guilt. They show how human corruption and greed began early, but every soul is responsible for itself.
Islam does not teach original sin or inherited blame.

Hadith about the Black Stone

When the Prophet pbuh said the Black Stone was whiter than milk, then became black because of the sins of mankind, (Tirmidhi 877) it was symbolic to remind the pilgrim that sin darkens the heart. No Muslim believes the Stone literally carries or forgives sins. It is kissed only as the Prophet pbuh kissed it, out of love and remembrance of him in reverence to God.

Isa al Masih in Islam

He is the Messiah (al-Masih), the Word of God cast into Mary, a miracle-worker, the sign of the Hour, and one who will return to break falsehood and rule with justice.
His title means the Anointed or the blessed one, not God-incarnate.
He was sinless, yes but human, a servant of Allah (Q 19:30).


Isa and Salvation
Islam teaches what you yourself concluded at the end of your message:
> “God is loving and merciful but also just.”
That is exactly why He forgives without blood and without injustice.
To make an innocent man die for the guilty would contradict His own declaration:
> “No bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.” (Q 6:164)
Mercy in Islam is pure because it does not require the suffering of another; it comes directly from ar-Rahman, the All-Merciful.

The Crossing of Hell
Back to Sahih Muslim 2767 again it complements Q 19:71-72.
All will approach Hell; the righteous will pass safely, the wicked will fall.
This is justice and mercy combined—not contradiction.

Isa was never humiliated or replaced unjustly; he was raised in honor.
Every human bears his own sin; no innocent pays for another.
The hadīths you cited describe moral lessons and divine balance, not inherited guilt or ransom by others.

God’s love in Islam is shown by His direct forgiveness; His justice is that He never punishes the guiltless.

So the God of Islam is neither naïve nor cruel. He is al-ʿAdl (The Just) and ar-Rahim (The Merciful).

That is why Muslims bow only to Him and seek salvation through His mercy, not another’s death.

Indeed, we should ask ourselves questions, but sincere ones guided by revelation, not emotion. So let us ask, calmly and logically, from both scripture and reason.

My brother why are you using coping and paste

Anyway back to my question which you didn't answer.

The hadith said Muslims who are already in hell Allah SWT will give Jews and christians as there ransome ...this is simple and precise


Again the Bible simply says in John 3 :16 For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whosoever believe in him will have everlasting life ... this right here is Christianity...not emotional but facts.

I can't save myself from sin Satan or judgement day...except I believe in the finished work of GRACE.

Habibi if you die today where will you be? Even Muhammad said he doesn't know what will become of him and he commit his life in the hands of Aallah and Yasua.


Back to the topic : the hadith didn't say unbelievers it said Jews and christains so stop using altaqiyya.


Everyone you all can see our Muslim school schoolar is not responding rather is diverting

What does sahih Muslim 2767 means when it says on the last day Allah will give the Muslim in hell a JEW AND CHRISTAIN as RANSOME for them to leave hell for heaven.


This is very simple

​"When it is the Day of Resurrection, Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue (or ransom) from Hell-Fire."



SAHIH MUSLIM 2767


Please notice the words as they are simple and precise

Time = Last day
The judge= Allah
Number = Every Muslim
Ransom = Jews and christians
Why= so that Muslim can move from hell to heaven.


This is very simple and understandable unless you want to be clever and dull at the same time

honesttalk21:
These are my attempt to address your questions which border on core fundamentals between the practiced Christian faith and the doctrine of Islam.
My Response: good to know my brother

I do not write to diminish anyone's faith, but to articulate why I, as a Muslim, understand divine mercy differently than who I term Christian neighbors. These are convictions born from revelation, and I offer them respectfully for interfaith dialogue.

My Response: this is why we are here , to see the truth from assumptions or taking someone's lies in blind faith which on the last day no one will blame anyone.

The Qur'an speaks with clarity on the matter of the crucifixion of Jesus saying "They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him but it was made to appear so to them... Rather, Allah raised him to Himself (4:157–158). This isn't a historical revision crafted centuries later; it's what we believe to be divine clarification of a profound misunderstanding.
MY RESPONSE: The crucifixion of Yasua Al massih in Jerusalem was not a hidden affair it was documented, now if 600 years later someone came and said Jesus wasn't crucified, it raises questions who was crucified? You talk of justice of Allah of everyone carrying their sins but making an innocent man died In place of Jesus christ that makes all your conviction a ruse and lies.
The death of Christ was not by accident it was prophesied written down and when Jesus came he talked about it...Habibi why do you think Jesus is called the Messiah?

I recognize that Christian tradition holds the crucifixion as historical bedrock, witnessed and recorded. But for Muslims, revelation supersedes human testimony. The very concept that God's honoured messenger,a man who healed the sick and raised the dead by Allah's permission could be subjected to such humiliation contradicts our understanding of divine justice. What matters most in our view is not the mechanics of what onlookers saw, but the theological truth. Allah saved His prophet and vindicated His message.
MY RESPONSE: You mean if your father wrote a will that you witnessed and you were made the sole proprietor of his estate, then the 3rd wife came with an Imam and said it was revealed to him that your father didn't write the will nor you as the next of kin ..what will you do? On this base I leave you to your conscience and logic to judge .


The doctrine of atonement that Jesus died for humanity's sins strikes at something fundamental in Islamic theology. The Qur'an declares: No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another (6:164). This principle runs through our entire moral framework like a golden thread.
MY RESPONSE: Which brings me back to the question in sahih Muslim 2767. That christians and Jews will be a ransome for Muslims in hell to be admitted into Al jinnah.
The words in that hadiths were simple and precise

Consider what this means in Islam, God's justice cannot allow an innocent person to suffer for the guilty. His mercy doesn't require a blood price. When Adam sinned, he repented and was forgiven,no sacrifice needed. When David erred, he sought forgiveness and received it. When Jonah fled his duty, he called out from the belly of the whale and was saved. In each case, repentance opened the door to divine mercy directly.
MY RESPONSE: My brother don't let us tow this path because it further exposes you and your revelations, you said everyone must bare there own sin but we are here on this topic because of ssahih Muslim 2767. Now look at this as further issues.
​"Were it not for Bani Israel (the Children of Israel), meat would not spoil, and were it not for Eve (Hawwa'), no woman would ever betray her husband." Sahih Al Bukhari 3152 and 3339.
I told you the more you try to defend it the more you open up yourself and I hope you check yourself and Ask Ruh Al-Qudus to reveal the truth to you.

I understand that Christians see the cross as the supreme demonstration of love with God paying the debt Himself. But I must ask: If God is truly omnipotent, why does He need payment at all? In Islam, forgiveness isn't a transaction. It's an act of pure mercy from the One who needs nothing from us. To my mind, requiring bloodshed even divine bloodshed to activate mercy seems to limit God's sovereignty rather than magnify it.

MY RESPONSE: GOD is a loving merciful but aa JUST BEIGN... ask yourself this just because our earthly judge is good and naive person will he part a murderer in the back and say oh just go home I am a nice guy, or there is justice. You see the life death and resurrection of Christ is a love story of God looking for man, because man cannot by his own standard find God . I can't save myself from sin, Satan and on judgement day only Yaasua Al massih can save me. How he was sinless all other men are sinners,the only one Satan has no power over, the only one death have no power over, and must definitely the one you won't find in hell waiting for judgement rather he will be the judge of the living and the dead. ALHAMIDUL YASUA.this alone distinguished Jesus from another.
If you get to a crossed road whom do you ask for direction. The dead guy or the living guy? Think my brother think

You and some others point to a hadith in Sahih Muslim (2767) that mentions disbelievers being a ransom for Muslims on the Day of Judgment. Doesn't this contradict our rejection of substitutionary atonement?
MY RESPONSE: YOU TELL ME. how on one hand everyone will bare there sins to the Jews and the Christians will be in hell as ransom for the Muslims to go to Allah Al jannaah? Are you seeing thr errors and lies?

Context matters deeply here. Islamic scholars like Imam al-Nawawi have clarified that this hadith doesn't describe anyone bearing another's sins. The disbelievers mentioned face consequences for their own rejection of truth, not as payment for Muslims' wrongdoing. The term fidā' (ransom) describes a comparative outcome, a protection by contrast, not a transfer of guilt. This must be read alongside the Qur'an's explicit principle that each soul is accountable for itself alone.

MY RESPONSE: WHY are you like this... an authentic hadith Said the christain and Jews will be ransomed for Muslims going to jannaah..you are here trying to dodge and divert.
Read 2767 sahih Muslim

The Qur'an doesn't identify who was made to appear like Jesus on the cross and honestly, that's not the point. The substitution isn't about atonement theology; it's about divine protection. God intervened to prevent the unjust execution of His prophet. This is fundamentally different from Christian substitution, where an innocent dies to accomplish salvation. In the Islamic view, someone may have been substituted, but this was to prevent injustice, not to achieve redemption.

MY RESPONSE: You ended up saying nothing and contradict yourself more , so the guy that was used to substitute for Jesus what was his crime? Is that not injustice? Does that not mean Allah is deceiver? Who died on the cross? Who ? You openly contradict yourself and Quran and hadith, that means it was all a lie, I leave the readers to judge and seek the truth in Christ Jesus

The focus remains on God's power to rescue His messenger from those who sought to destroy him. It's a story of divine vindication, not vicarious suffering.
MY RESPONSE: who died in place of Jesus? And what was his crime? So Allah deceived the whole world? So he allow Jesus to be beaten, stripped of all dignity , spat upon, wipped with blood gushing out made to carry the cross only to be substituted ? By who?

Christians often point to the Qur'an's description of Jesus as a spirit from Him (4:171) as evidence of divinity. But in Arabic, minhu (from Him) in context of it's use here indicates origin from Allah's command, not essence from His being. The Qur'an says of Adam that Allah breathed into him of His spirit (15:29) some even specify created spirit, yet no one claims Adam is divine. Every human possesses a spirit given by Allah (32:9), yet we remain creatures.

MY RESPONSE: You are confusing Ruh and Ruh Al Qudus together. That is nor the topic here, create a topic on this and let's talk about the Spirit of God, angels and spirits. Back to the topic.

When the Qur'an calls Jesus His word which He conveyed to Mary, it refers to the creative command Be, through which God brought Jesus into existence without a father. This is miraculous, yes but miracle doesn't equal divinity. The ruh is created by Allah's will, not a fragment of His eternal essence.

MY RESPONSE: The topic here is Jews and christians been the ransome for Muslims on the last day by Allah and you haven't in anyway address it as a Muslim schoolar rather you further exposed more lies . Like I said create a topic on Christ divinity and call me ...and I will prove to you for the purpose of your salvation of soul from the Bible , Qur'an and life that The same Jesus you see will come back in Glory judging the living and the dead ...Tekbil Yasua Akbar

Christians see the cross as where divine justice and mercy intersect. God satisfying His own justice by taking the punishment Himself. It's meant to show the depths of divine love. I appreciate the beauty Christians find in this narrative.

MY RESPONSE: All this you said are historical geographically and scripturally correct.

But from where I stand, this creates a problem it purports to solve. If God is both the offended party and the judge, why does He need to satisfy justice through suffering? Can't He simply forgive? Islam answers: Yes, He can, and He does. His mercy doesn't require bloodshed because His authority is absolute. Requiring a sacrifice even a divine one seems to place constraints on God that don't belong there.

MY RESPONSE: like I said earlier Our God is a loving but a just God... man can't find God , for if the blind lead the blind they will both fall into a ditch.. Jesus Christ death on the cross is a love story of A loving God finding man who dosent deserve his mercy only wrath and decided in his infinite wisdom to redeemed man by himself that habibi is called GRACE.

Christianity teaches that God loved the world so much that He paid the price Himself. Islam teaches that God is so merciful that He forgives without requiring any price at all.
But sahih Muslim 2767 and Sahih Al bukhari 3152 and 3339 disagrees.

MY RESPONSE: I still have more hadiths if you want I can still send which further shows that someone causes a sin that affects and someone or something must be a ransome.
I still have the hadith of the stone in Mecca supplicating interceding for those who have kissed it.

Both traditions speak of love. Both speak of mercy. But Islam insists on something more: the absolute oneness of God. He begets not, nor is He begotten, and there is none comparable to Him (112:3-4). This is the pure monotheism that defines Islamic faith. We cannot compromise this for any theological convenience.

MY RESPONSE: this is not the topic, addresse the ransome of Christains been use as substitute for Muslims in hell

In our view, forgiveness isn't purchased. It isn't transferred. It isn't achieved through cosmic transactions. It is given freely, perfectly, directly by the One who is utterly self-sufficient and infinitely merciful. When we turn to Him in sincere repentance, we find Him already turning toward us with mercy.

MY RESPONSE: SAHIH MUSLIM 2767 SAHIH AL BUKHARI 3152 3339 and the stone in Mecca which was white and was turned black because of sins of those that do pilgrimage and lots more disagrees with you ...and further exposed the lies
This is the Islam I know: a faith where the door to divine forgiveness is never locked, where no priest or sacrifice stands between the servant and the Lord, where mercy is God's defining attribute, and where His oneness is never compromised.

I hope this explains why, for Muslims, the path to God's mercy must remain direct, unmediated, and anchored in the absolute unity of the Divine.

MY RESPONSE: YOU ENDED SAYING NOTHING AND DIVERTING THE QUESTIONS. what does sahih muslim 2767 mean? What does it says? I hope you are not using Altaqiyya or kitmaan because you sound like an educated person.

So the question remains the Jews and the Christians will be used as ransome for the Muslims in hell by Allah
Do note that all Muslims will be in hell waiting fir judgement...to my readers ask yourself questions from this exposè

honesttalk21:
Indeed you can seek clarity yourself.

Reconciling the Tafsīr of Ibn ʿAbbās, al-Jalālayn, and Ibn Kathīr

1. Ibn ʿAbbās (Tanwīr al-Miqbās) says “all will enter” but this short tafsīr is not reliably attributed to him in full. Many scholars classify Tanwīr al-Miqbās as a later summary with weak chains.

The same Ibn ʿAbbās is also quoted elsewhere saying “the righteous will pass over it, the wicked will fall in.”



2. Al-Jalālayn uses “enter” (yadkhuluhā) to simplify the concept but clarifies that “He will save the righteous” meaning they won’t remain or suffer.


3. Ibn Kathīr gives the most balanced explanation:

“Everyone will be brought to it.”

“Then Allah will save those who feared Him and leave the wrongdoers therein.”

“This proves all will be presented before Hell, but only the sinners will be punished.”

Sahih Muslim (Hadith 182):
“The believers will pass over Hell. It will say: ‘O believer, pass safely, for your light has extinguished my flames.’”

Ibn Abi Hatim reports from Ibn ʿAbbās:
“No believer will enter Hell except that it will be cool and peaceful for him, as it was for Ibrāhīm.”


Thus, the believers’ entering or approaching does not mean punishment it means a passage proving Allah’s justice and mercy.

Meaning of “Wurud” To approach, present, or cross over; not necessarily to suffer inside
Who Will Approach? All humans;believers and disbelievers alike
Outcome for the Righteous: Saved, unharmed, or passing safely over the Sirat bridge
Outcome for the Wicked: Fall into Hell and remain according to their deeds
Purpose: Manifestation of divine justice each soul witnesses what it was saved from.


Wurūd (وُرُود)
The meaning of this word.
The root warada means to come to, approach, or arrive at a place but not necessarily to enter it fully.

Examples from the Qur’an:

“When he came to (warada) the water of Madyan…” (Qur’an 28:23) :Moses reached the well, not that he fell into it.

“The Fire which they will be made to approach (yuradūnahā), and evil indeed is that destination.” (Qur’an 11:98) :Pharaoh’s people are made to approach the Fire.


So linguistically, wurūd can mean passing by, approaching, or being brought before — not necessarily entering and suffering in.

You cannot pay for your sins to earn forgiveness in Islam.
Forgiveness is not a transaction, it is a transformative mercy granted by Allah to those who repent sincerely and reform.

Allah’s mercy doesn’t contradict His justice but it perfects it.
He forgives not because someone else suffered, but because He is the Most Merciful and wants your reform, not your destruction:

You still didn't address the issue.

Will the Christains be used as a ransome for the Muslims on the Day of judgment by Allah according to Saahih Muslim 2767

Please don't divert or digress you are not talking to a layman who doesn't know some arabic or read Quran.

The haadith says Jews and Christains will be used as replacement for the Muslims who are already in hell and this will enable them go to Al jinnah

So I ask is this true?

You are saying the haadith is weak ....when it is classified as Sahih( authentic original truth) so are you not a munafiki for saying this? Why are you denying the word of Allah SWT ?

Since the haadith is true...what does this mean ?because the wordings were simple and precise.


What does that hadith says of Christain and Jews been a replacement for Muslims in hell?

An eye opener : ALL MUSLIMS WHO DIED MUST GO TO HELL TILL THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT.

So back to the question...will the Jews and christians be used as ransome for Muslims on judgment day by Allah according to Sahih Muslim 2767?

TenQ:
Why would Allah use Christians and Jews as ransom for Muslims?

Allah is not using Polytheists as ransom because polytheists are already in hell fire. The reason Christians and Jews can be used is because they are NOT already in the fire unlike the Muslims



Quran 19:71 Allah Muslims must enter Hell fire. It is a decree of Allah.

Muslims will falsely manufacture a PASSAGE to say they would pass over an inexistent BRIDGE of Sirat

Qur'an 19:71
"وَمَا مِنكُم مِّنْ أَحَدٍ إِلَّا سَيَمُرُّهَا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ عَلَىٰ رَبِّكَ يَسِيرٌ"
Quran 19:71
There is not one of you who will not go down to it (the fire), that is a fixed Decree of your Lord

It is



Verse 72 betray any counter argument

Quran 19:72 -
Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees."

1. The word THEN (means "After that.." ).
Do you think it means After Muslims have passed over hell or passed by hell? Or after Muslims are in Hell


2. If Muslims will pass over the fire, why does verse 72 say:
Then we will save those who fear Allah!
Allah will Save them from what?

3. Don't you think that anyone who has passed over hell or passed by hell is ALREADY saved and doesn't need further saving?

4. Leaving the Unbelievers AFTER Allah has removed you Muslims is the last straw that nails this.


ALL Muslims will enter the Fire of Hell until they are finally ransomed.

See your Tafsirs on Qur'an 19:71

Quran 19 :71 Abbas - Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
(There is not one of you but shall approach it) there is not a single one of you, to the exclusion of prophets and messengers, save that he will enter it, i.e. hell. (That is a fixed ordinance of your Lord) it is a decree that must necessarily take place.


Qur'an 19.71 Jalal - Al-Jalalayn
There is not one of you but shall come to it, that is, [but] shall enter Hell. That is an inevitability [already] decreed by your Lord, [something which] He made inevitable and [which] He decreed; He will not waive it.


Qur'an 19.71-72 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
Everyone will be brought to Hell, then the Righteous will be saved
Ibn Jarir reported from `Abdullah that he said concerning Allah's statement,



All Muslims are entering Hell Fire!

Muslims will ALL without exception enter the Fire of Hell at least for a Duration.
What if this was A GRAND deception and the Duration become ETERNITY!

My brother just to be cleared are you saying Jews and christian are a MUST RANSOM for Muslims to leave hell and go to heaven?

Is that right or is a wishful thinking or is a lie to keep all Muslim there in for ever?


So Muslims do need saviours in this case Jews and christains

A christian will be there ransome money until Allah release them from hell he had kidnapped them?


All this doesn't make sense?

Which further exposes Islam Allah Muhammad hadiths Muslims


Because in Muslims answering one question, 2 more errors and lies pop up


Who is been deceived here?

Muslims?

You ?

May God not let us marry our enemies


Amen

If U.S haven't threatened Nigeria he will be issuing faatwa around.



Bloody terrorist

بِاسْمِ الآبِ وَالاِبْنِ وَالرُّوحِ القُدُس

(Bismi al-Ab, wa al-Ibn, wa al-Ruh al-Qudus).

One thing with sin is that THE ETERNAL ONE abhor sins if it is found in Adam he will be Punished, David no matter how loved will be Punished, In moses he didn't get to the promise land ...on christ on the Cross ...sin must be Punished, someone has to pay for it because God is a just judge
In our African tradition we believe when the gods are angry because of evil and wickedness, they demand justice and to avert it someone or something will be used for the sacrifice to appease the gods.

VERDICT : SIN MUST BE PUNISHED, SOMEONE HAS TO PAY THE PRICE FOR SOMEONE TO BE FREE FROM THE PUNISHMENT

For centuries now Muslims Allah Muhammad accused the Christians on there concept of salvation of a man dying on the cross ➕ for someone's else sin is absurd , ludicrous and wickedness.

Christain belief: is that God sent his SON who came down in human form through a virgin birth lived a sinless life , did outstanding miracles and signs , crucified on the cross and resurrected, appeared to hundreds of people for 40 days and ascended to Heaven and promised to came back to take his own ( dead or alive) to be with Him.... and other events ... all this prophesied in the old and new testament.

Now Allah Muhammad Quraan and hadith mocked, belittled and called it a lie,
1. That Jesus was just a mere man and a messenger at best
2.that Jesus didn't died , that Allah made it seem so ( till today they haven't told us who died)
3.that the christ dying on the calvary is a lie
4 that everyone will carry there own sins
5.what will make a Muslim go to heaven is Believing only Allah is god and Muhammed is his messenger.

I hope you all are following my topic, now the story now changed...I have asked Muslims to explain this in the light of the truth, how do you reconcile this , and any Muslim here can help out

In Sahih Muslim ( an authentic acceptable doings and sayings of Muhammed, Allah) 2767

it will be the Day of Resurrection, Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: 'That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.'"
​Sahih Muslim 2767b (Another part of the same Hadith): "No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire."
​Another narration mentions: "There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians."


This is very interesting
This opens up questions
This is exposes who have been lying
This means alot
In the subsequent discussion we will see more
Any Muslim in the house to explain

Shukraan


Calling
Shida, antislaam ,AntiChristian, tunde1200, islamicViRGiN, tenQ, jimhroh

fadal:
Is a lie the prophet muhamad sallahllahu alaihi wasalam never sin in his life and thats why his better then jesus and the other prophets.

Very true

But was Jesus sinless according to al Quran kareem ?

Did he ever ask for forgiveness of sins?

Is there any place in the Quran and. HADITH it was said Yasua Al massih sinned?

Was Muhammed sinless according to Quran and Hadith?

Did Muhammed ever asked for forgiveness?

If we check hadiths can we pinpoint places where Muhammed committed crime or sins and wicked behaviour?

Shukraan

بِاسْمِ الآبِ وَالاِبْنِ وَالرُّوحِ القُدُس

Biismi al-Ab, wa al-Ibn, wa al-Ruh al-Qudus

This phrase is commonly used by Christians in Arabic-speaking countries, particularly during prayers and blessings.

u said The Qur'an is the book above all books


In what ways?
In science
In geography
In history
In preservation
In morals
In future predictions


And if it fails in any of this it is lie

Please don't make claims without evidence


Shukraan