₦airaland Forum

@ Mad Max

There is hope for Catholics. In fact God is calling them through different means and ways to the simplicity of faith and practice.  When Martin Luther came across the biblical injunction "the just shall live by faith" , he responded immediately. Thank God for His honesty, and his willingness to stand up for the truth, an act in itself that was considered suicidal.

I am sorry for members of the RCC. They have been blinded by all that deceit, mysticism, and sophistry of their organization, but God's words are powerful to save and deliver.

Revelation 18:3,4 say, "3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

Soon the Roman church will enforce her [b]mark [/b]upon all citizens of the earth.  Since 1929 she has been growing in strength since her deadly wound was healed.

What we are not able to accomplish through the word of God in regards to enlightening her followers, prophetic fulfillment will do. All of God's people who are sealed for eternal life will eventually see the glorious light of truth, and will depart.

@ Mad Max

There is hope for Catholics. In fact God is calling them through different means and ways to the simplicity of faith and practice.  When Martin Luther came across the biblical injunction "the just shall live by faith" , he responded immediately. Thank God for His honesty, and his willingness to stand up for the truth, an act in itself that was considered suicidal.

I am sorry for members of the RCC. They have been blinded by all that deceit, mysticism, and sophistry of their organization, but God's words are powerful to save and deliver.

Revelation 18:3,4 say, "3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

Soon the Roman church will enforce her [b]mark [/b]upon all citizens of the earth.  Since 1929 she has been growing in strength since her deadly wound was healed.

What we are not able to accomplish through the word of God in regards to enlightening her followers, prophetic fulfillment will do. All of God's people who are sealed for eternal life will eventually see the glorious light of truth, and will depart.

@ Kola

Jesus does condemn a critical and judgmental spirit, one with a sense of moral superiority. He commanded us to examine ourselves first for the problems that we so easily see in others. It is when we examine ourselves that we can better see the problem and get help for our own problem first. Christians are not only commanded to judge but to judge righteously and not just by appearance. John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

How do you then reconcile what was said in John 7:24, with what Jesus said in another verse?

@ lady

Well the thread has been started, please don't post as David has already started answering the questions, but you are very free to follow. I ask that no one else post so as not to cause confusion on the thread, because I really want that thread to be meaningful, free of insults and ridiculous posts, and I really mean that.

I wish you'd take time to proof read your own posts. Does the above in bold make sense to you?

@ chukwudi44

@bobbyaff,

If u want to reject catholicism reject everything that has to do withn catholicism starting from the bible. Dump the bibles catholics selected ,go and select ur own bible .Reject every thing that has to do with catholicism including trinity,sunday worship,christmas,easter any thing short of this will only make you a hupocrite.Like isaid to u in the previous thread NAME YOUR CHURCH IF U HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE

It is not for me to reject what I have not accepted, including all of which you have mentioned excepting the bible. The collating of scriptures, the credit of which you seek to grab, belongs to God's own doing. The bible says that God can create good out of evil.

Has it ever occurred to you that God could have used any set of people to have safe guarded the scriptures?

@ Lady

The idea that faith is illogic is unbiblical and is in itself a fasle doctrine.

I'd have to agree with you that faith isn't illogical. In fact it does require a degree of intelligence to understand what is required to trust God completely. The bible says "faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God."

Does the Bible tell us that we should go by scripture ALONE?

Not directly, but neither do the scriptures direct us to follow tradition. In fact Jesus Himself made that very clear when He pointed to the defective traditions of the church leaders back in His time. While I appreciate that there can be sound traditional values that have passed down from one generation to another, one must realize that Satan can influence men to introduce traditions that run contrary to God's instructions.

I am glad you cited 2 Timothy for me, while Catholics do agree with 2 Timothy, I should go ahead and say that we agree with everything written in the Bible, does that verse indicate that God does not deposit faith or expresses his Word to us without scripture, and does that verse state that we should go by Scripture ALONE?

God can express Himself outside of written scripture. He can do it through special revelation as well. When He gave the heathen king of Babylon a dream, that was one example of God operating outside of His typical revelation methods. But to be honest with you, that has never been an issue with Christians, because we are very much aware that God can do what pleases Him.

@ Lady

Yes I do, in case you haven't noticed the discussions for this thread will be different from the discussions for the other thread. It is also misleading the readers. This topic is about Catholic tradition, the topic I already started is not about Catholic tradition vs. the Bible.

The thread started is Protestantism: Biblical? If you read it you will see why I don't want to continue it on this thread.

I would prefer Seun because he is not religious.

The argument as to whether protestantism is biblical can be discussed here. Logically it makes sense, because it will be seen as an attempt at discounting all the arguments against Catholic traditions that are not in keeping with the bible. In fact there are very few true protestants left anyway. Most denominations have already sold out to the Catholic church anyway. So big deal!

@ Omenuko

boobyaff abeg name ur church if u  know u dont have skeletons in ur cupboard.

Does it matter what church I belong to as long as such a church holds to God's words instead of man's traditions?

I dont have any problem with bible alone christians if there are consistent in their practices but their hypocrisy drives me mad.If u want to reject all extra -bibical beleifs of the catholic church u should first of all start with the trinity.

The term trinity is just that, a term. Catholics might own the term Trinity, but they cannot change the reality that long before the term was invented, the Tri-une God already was explained in scriptures. Genesis and John already introduced three distinct persons as possessing divine attributes - The Father, the Son, and the Spirit of God.

there is no way in the bible where the trinity is explicitly stated,It was part of the church beliefs handed down by church fathers(traditions).

What is more important, the term Trinity, or what it stands for? By the way who said all traditions are bad?  

Just go ahead and denounce it .Pentecostal churches have female pastors which contrary to the teachings of the scricpture(mind u i have nothing against the femalefolk,am just trying to prove point) If we want to go by scripture alone female pastors should not exist.

Well, personally, I have a different take about women pastors being preachers than most other denominations. Personally, I believe that Paul's writings about women being silent has been grossly misunderstood, but I won't argue this point here.

there are so many other unscriptural practices of pentecostal churches among which is compulsory tithing. Show me where in the scripture that tithes were paid with money, show me where tithes were paid monthly as practised by pentecostals. Show me where in the new testament that Jesus or any of the apostles paid or received tithes .Tithting and prosperity preaching are the greatest evil curently facing the christianity and most of the culprits are pentecostals

Show me a scripture that says tithing is unlawful, and I will more than show you a scripture that denounces the Catholic priesthood system.

@ lady

It would be very misleading, and away from the topic. Plus I want it to be a very serious discussion thread not one where any dysfunctional individual can post in.

So do you need another thread for serious discussions, other than what we already have in this thread? Listen! Any thread that is started by any Catholic will warrant similar responses based on similar issues that exist between Catholic and protestant teachings. There is no problem discussing any issue in this thread along the lines of what is already being discussed here.

I want someone to take up the challenge. So I will start another one, and get Seun to be the moderator of that particular discussion thread. I trust him to be unbiased. He doesn't care for religion.

So are you saying that the moderator for this thread cannot be trusted? Interesting!

@ No2Atheism

1. Who are the Merchants

Those that conduct business with the Roman Catholic church.

2. Who is the bible refering to as "HER"

The "her" represents the false church which is the Roman Catholic church. In other words they are only two churches. One is genuine and teaches truth in its entirety, while one is political and teaches lies with a little truth.

@ Lady

@Bobbyaf,

may I start a thread about it?
I have so much to ask you

Continue here! This thread is already about Catholic beliefs versus what others believe. So by all means continue.

@ Rotimy

I'd have to agree with you on your stance about choosing a name without first thinking about its meaning, or connotations. That is the problem with people in society. Everything is situational, and so words are used loosely and not a second thought is put into the effect it might have on those who either see, or hear the word, and especially if such a word connotes something impure.

@ Lady

But I have this wish, to question the protestants on the Bible and their beliefs. I only wish one person will be willing to take me on that challenge, and that they will do so truthfully, logically, and respectfully. Unfortunately I haven't come across a Protestant who is willing and capable of doing that, on this board. Those that I have encountered outside of this board that have been truthful, logical, and respectful, are considering becoming Catholics.

They are so many beliefs, but what exactly do you have in mind? I am prepared to discuss any biblical beliefs with any one on the premise that such beliefs are based on what is taught in scriptures.

Context is very important when reading the bible. In the world today, the admonition not to "judge" is frequently used to place a virtual gag order over those who would speak up against popular and accepted world practices. Even some Christians will use a "don't judge" stance when erroneous teachings and ministries in the church are examined. In fact, many false prophets are using Scripture references like "touch not my anointed" and "do my prophets no harm" in order to protect their doctrines and actions from exposure. The word judge has been so perverted that to judge anything is now considered by many to be anti-Christian behavior, and anyone who does so is likely to be labeled as an "accuser of the brethren."

Well, what does God have to say on this subject? Is it true that Christians are told not to judge? The simple answer is no. In fact, according to Scripture those who do not judge are more likely to be led astray by false doctrines and are less effective witnesses for Christ.

The word judge carries two meanings. One is to discern, and the other is to condemn. The latter form of meaning is what we are encouraged not to do. Only God can condemn someone.

So please remember that context is important.

Its simple. She alone would have died since she alone sinned. Logically, God would have had to provide another woman in order for the continuation of procreation.

@ Carlosein

finally, we see the rudiments of scholarship starting to show (there's hope afterall Smiley).

but her name is not lasdy Undecided

on a serious note you forgot to cite the source (you have copied and pasted from it only) can we have a link to it?

Seems you all are more concerned about sources than the evils and attrocities that were committed by what is supposedly, God's church.

@ mantraa

"which one came first "the egg or the chicken?"

Forgive me for being too logical but its plainly obvious which one came first.

The egg came millions of years before the chicken.

Dinosaurs were laying eggs hundreds of millions of years before birds evolved. This is a well known fact.

The only people that refuse to believe it are those who are trying to cling on to their ancient bronze age belief systems in the face of increasingly insurmountable evidence supporting evolution.

I believe that one day we will evolve beyond the need for religions, and learn to treat each other with real and true equality.


"As my ancestors are free from slavery, I am free from the slavery of religion." Butterfly Mqueen.

I am not convinced you're convinced. Honestly it requires more faith to believe in the theory of evolution than creation itself. Think about that for awhile.

If you can answer this then you're good to go. What came first, DNA or protein?

@ Lady

They are not rebels, at least not those who wish to indulge in the act

So those who wish to indulge in homosexual acts are not rebellious of God's direct command against mankind laying with mankind. Why are you defending them in the first place? Yet you call me stupid for failing to remember your own quote.

@ Huxley

Why don't you break it down for those persons who don't seem to understand the theory of evolution. Why are you sending persons to books, since you have somehow studied it, and should be able to analyze it?

Are you able to give a brief backdrop as to how life started? If yes, then we can pick it up from there.

@ Lady

ok, since all these took place before the protestant reformation, how did we kill "bible-believing" christians. you may want to search what those heretics taught first before you include them in your "bible-believing" christians.

So do you know who were the Waldensians in southern France and northern Italy were? These were the repository of whatever pure Christianity that might have remained, despite the lies spread against them as a means to justify the persecutions. These guys were the precursors to the reformation. These were Christians in the highest sense that stood for truth despite the imminent danger that threatened their existence.

Between the Waldensians, Albigenses, and others in and around France and Italy, it is estimated that towns and villages were wiped out. Think about it.

I shouldn't have to remind you of the persecutions in the middle ages, where numerous Christians were burnt to the stake for simply believing the bible.

Some have quoted large figures, but it matters not how many, but that they were persecutions at all. The church of Jesus Christ was never commissioned to use force to convince, but rather to be used by the Holy Spirit to convict the conscience of men and women to the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

@ No2Atheism

Lady has not the slightest clue as to what is going on in her organization. Like the proverbial ostrich she buries her head in the sands of confusion. She dares not lift up her head lest she sees the glorious light of Holy Scriptures.

@# lasdy

Such a bad scholar you are, protestants did not exist at the time of the inquisition. If they did, show me. When did protestant reformation take place and when did the inquisitions take place? Especially the spanish inquisition.

I will do better than that. Here are the facts. The Medieval Inquisition is a series of Inquisitions (Roman Catholic Church bodies charged with suppressing heresy) from around 1184, including the Episcopal Inquisition (1184-1230s) and later the Papal Inquisition (1230s). It was in response to large popular movements throughout Europe considered apostate or heretical to Christianity, in particular Catharism and Waldensians in southern France and northern Italy. These were the first inquisition movements of many that would follow.

The Medieval Inquisitions were in response to growing religious movements, in particular the Cathars first noted in the 1140s and the Waldensians starting around 1170, in southern France and northern Italy. Individual "Heretics", for example Peter of Bruis, had often challenged the Church. However, the Cathars were the first mass heretical organization in the second millennium that posed a serious threat to the authority of the Church.

The Spanish Inquisition was an ecclesiastical tribunal established in 1478 by Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile. It was intended to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms, and to replace the medieval inquisition which was under papal control. The new body was under the direct control of the Spanish monarchy. It was not definitively abolished until 1834, during the reign of Isabella II.

Am I surprised that Lady would defend such sinful acts seeing the RCC has a history of sodomizing little boys?

@ Lady

apparently, that's why I sincerely think these people want to be deceitful when they post quotes without citations or sources. They know that it's not credible.

Who are you trying to fool? Everything that was posted here had their sources. The historical piece of interest was factual history that can be verified under the Spanish inquisitions. In fact that was only one of the numerous accounts.

So do you need sources to prove the inquisitions that killed millions of bible-believing Christians? Or are you prepared to downplay that such barbaric acts were committed by the so-called church of God?

I notice you are afraid to comment on such postings?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3qL1zhDWl8

@ Carlosein

bobbyaf,
you'd notice that i didn't bother with the rest of your (lenghty) post cos for the same reason above,
it lacked authenticity (to say the least Cool).

When you're qualified enough to put out a book with historical facts as was brought out in the above story, then you can argue about sources. If the pope who is the present head of the organization apologized for such acts of barbarism, then who are you to deny anything under the disguise of being concerned about sources.

For our friend Lady who is always asking for quotes and evidence here are a few quotes from your own literature.

"For the Roman pontiff (pope), by reason of his office as VICAR OF CHRIST, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal POWER over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise UNHINDERED." -CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, 1994, P. 254 #882
Notice what the pope is called, "Roman pontiff"

"All sects of heretics are condemned and various punishments are appointed for them and their accomplices." --Pope Alexander IV, --p. 135

Brothers and sisters in Christ I want you to note the evil and deception, and the degree of cruelty that prevailed then. Here is a historical piece of interest

In 1809, Colonel Lehmanowsky was attached to that part of Napoleon's army stationed at Madrid; and while in that city, the Colonel used to express his opinions freely among the people, respecting the priests and Jesuits of the Inquisition. It had been decreed by the French emperor that the Inquisition and monasteries should be suppressed, but the decree was not executed. Months had passed away, and the prisons of the Inquisition had not been opened. One night, about twelve o'clock, as the Colonel was walking along one of the streets of Madrid, two armed men sprang upon him from an alley, and made a furious attack. He instantly drew his sword, put himself in a posture of defence, and, while struggling with them, he saw at a distance the lights of the patroles--French soldiers mounted, who carried lanterns, and rode through the streets of the city at all hours of the night, to preserve order. He called to them in French, and, as they hastened to his assistance, the assailants took to their heels, and escaped--not, however, before he saw by their dress that they belonged to the guards of the Inquisition.

He went immediately to Marshal Soult, then governor of Madrid, told him what had taken place, and reminded him of the decree to suppress the institution. Marshal Soult replied that he might go and destroy it. The Colonel having told him that his regiment--the 9th of the Polish Lancers--was not sufficient for such a service, without the aid of two additional regiments, the troops required were granted: one of these regiments was the 17th, under the command of Colonel de Lile, subsequently pastor of an evangelical church in Marseilles. The troops marched to fulfil their destined object, the Inquisition being about five miles from the city. It was surrounded by a wall of great strength, and defended by a company of soldiers.

When they arrived at the walls, the Colonel addressed one of the sentinels, and summoned the holy fathers to surrender to the imperial army, and open the gates of the Inquisition. The sentinel who was standing on the wall appeared to enter into conversation for a moment with some one within, at the close of which he presented his musket, and shot one of the Colonel's men. This was a signal of attack, and he ordered his troops to fire upon those that appeared on the walls.

It was soon obvious that it was an unequal warfare. The walls of the Inquisition were covered with soldiers of the holy office; there was also a breastwork upon the walls, behind which they partially exposed themselves as they discharged their muskets. The French troops were in the open plain, and exposed to a destructive fire. They had no cannon, nor could they scale the walls; and the gates successfully resisted all attempts at forcing them. The Colonel could not retire, and send for cannon to break through the walls, without giving them time to lay a train for blowing up the French troops. He saw, therefore, that it was necessary to change the mode of attack, and directed that some trees should be cut down and trimmed, to be used as battering-rams. Two of these were taken up by detachments of men, as numerous as could work to advantage, and brought to bear upon the walls with all the power that they could exert; while the troops kept up a fire to protect them from that poured upon them from the walls. Presently the walls began to tremble, a breach was made, and the imperial troops rushed into the Inquisition.

Here they met with an incident, to which nothing but Jesuitical effrontery is equal. The inquisitor-general, followed by the father-confessors in their priestly robes, all came out of their rooms as the French were making their way into the interior of the Inquisition; and with long faces and their arms crossed over their breasts, their fingers resting on their shoulders, as though they had been deaf to all the noise of the attack and defence, and had just learned what was going on, they addressed themselves in the language of seeming rebuke to their own soldiers, and asked, "Why do you fight our friends the French?"

Their intention was, doubtless, to make us think that the resistance was wholly unauthorized by them; and if they could have succeeded in making a temporary impression in their favour, they would have had an opportunity, in the confusion of the moment, to escape. But their artifice was too shallow, and did not succeed. Colonel Lehmanowsky caused them to be placed under guard, and all the soldiers of the Inquisition to be secured as prisoners. He then proceeded to examine all the rooms of the stately edifice. He passed from room to room, and found all perfectly in order. The apartments were richly furnished, with altars and crucifixes and wax candles in abundance, but no evidence could be discovered of iniquity being practised there; there were none of those peculiar features which might have been expected in an Inquisition. Splendid paintings adorned the walls. There was a rich and extensive library. Beauty and splendour appeared everywhere, and the most perfect order on which eyes ever rested. The architecture, the proportions were perfect. The ceiling and floors of wood were scoured and highly polished. The marble floors were arranged with a strict regard to order.

There was everything to please the eye and gratify a cultivated taste; but where were those horrid instruments of torture which were reported to be there, and where those dungeons in which human beings were said to be buried alive? The search seemed to be in vain. The holy fathers assured the Colonel that they had been belied, and that he had seen all. The commanding officer began to think that this Inquisition was different from others of which he had heard, and was inclined to give up the search.

But Colonel de Lile was of a different mind. Addressing Colonel Lehmanowsky, he said, "Colonel, you are commander to-day, and as you say so it must be; but if you will be advised by me, let this marble floor be examined. Let water be brought and poured upon it, and we will watch and see if there is any place through which it passes more freely than others." "Do as you please, Colonel," replied the commander, and ordered water to be brought accordingly. The slabs of marble were large, and beautifully polished. When the water had been poured over the floor, much to the dissatisfaction of the inquisitors, a careful examination was made of every seam in the floor, to see if the water passed through. Presently Colonel de Lile exclaimed that he had found it. By the side of one of these marble slabs the water passed through fast, as though there was an opening beneath. All hands were now at work for further discovery; the officers with their swords, and the soldiers with their bayonets, cleared out the seam, and endeavoured to raise the slab; others with the but-ends of their muskets struck the slab with all their might in order to break it; while the priests remonstrated against the desecration of their holy and beautiful house. While this engaged, a soldier who was striking with the but-end of his musket struck a spring, and the marble slab flew up. The faces of the inquisitors instantly grew pale as Belshazzar when the hand-writing appeared on the wall, and they shook with fear from head to foot. Beneath the marble slab, now partly up, there was a staircase. The commander stepped to the altar, and took from the candlestick one of the lighted candles four feet in length, that he might explore the room below. One of the inquisitors endeavoured to prevent him; and laying his hand gently on his arm, with a very demure and sanctified look, he said, "My son, you must not take those lights with your bloody hands: they are holy." "Never mind," said the commander, "I will take a holy thing to shed light on iniquity; I will bear the responsibility!" Colonel Lehmanowsky then took the light, and proceeded down the staircase. When he and his companions in arms reached the floor of the stairs, they entered a large square room which was called the Hall of Judgment. In the center of it was a large block, and a chain fastened to it. On this they had been accustomed to place the accused, chained to his seat. On one side of the room was an elevated seat, called the Throne of Judgment, which the inquisitor-general occupied; and on either side were seats less elevated, for the holy fathers when engaged in the solemn business of the Holy Inquisition.

From this room they proceeded to the right, and obtained access to small cells extending the entire length of the edifice; and here they were presented with the most distressing sights.

These cells were places of solitary confinement, where the wretched objects of inquisitorial hate were confined year after year, till death released them from their sufferings: and there their bodies were suffered to remain until they were entirely decayed, and the rooms had become fit for others to occupy. To prevent this being offensive to those who occupied the Inquisition, there were flues or tubes extending to the open air, sufficiently capacious to carry off the odour. In these cells were the remains of some who had paid the debt of nature; of whom some had been dead apparently but a short time; while of others nothing remained but their bones, still chained to the floor of their dungeon.

In other cells they found living sufferers of both sexes and of every age, from threescore years and ten down to fourteen or fifteen years, all in a state of complete nudity, and all in chains! Here were old men and aged women, who had been shut up for many years. Here, too, were the middle-aged, and the young man, and the maiden of fourteen years old. The soldiers immediately went to work to release these captives from their chains, and took from their knapsacks their overcoats and other clothing, which they gave to cover their unclothedness. They were exceedingly anxious to bring them out to the light of day; but Colonel Lehmanowsky, aware of the danger, had food given them, and then brought them gradually to the light as they were able to bear it.

The soldiers then proceeded to explore yet another room on their left. Here they found the instruments of torture, of every kind which the ingenuity of men or devils could invent.

The first instrument noticed was a machine by which the victim was confined, and then, beginning with the fingers, all the joints in the hands, arms, and body were broken and drawn one after another, until the suffered died.

The second was a box in which the head and neck of the victim were so closely confined by a screw, that he could not move in any way. Over the box was a vessel, from which one drop of water fell upon the head of the victim every second, each successive drop falling upon precisely the same place; by which, in a few moments, the circulation was suspended, and the sufferer had to endure the most excruciating agony.

The third was an infernal machine, laid horizontally, to which the victim was bound; the machine then being placed between two beams, in which were scores of knives so fixed that, by turning the machine with a crank, the flesh of the sufferer was all torn from his limbs into small pieces.

ironvirginThe fourth surpassed the others in fiendish ingenuity. Its exterior was a large doll, richly dressed, and having the appearance of a beautiful woman, with her arms extended ready to embrace her victim. A semicircle was drawn around her, and the person who passed over this fatal mark touched a spring which caused the diabolical engine to open; its arms immediately clasped him, and a thousand knives cut him in as many pieces, while in the deadly embrace.

Colonel L. said that the sight of these engines of infernal cruelty kindled the fire of indignation in the bosoms of the soldiers. They declared that every Inquisitor and soldier of the inquisition should be put to the torture. Their rage was ungovernable. Colonel Lehmanowsky did not oppose them: they might have turned their arms against him, if he had attempted to arrest their work. They then began punishing the holy fathers. The first was put to death in the machine for breaking joints. The torture of the inquisitor that suffered death by the dropping of water on his head was most excruciating: the poor wretch cried out in agony to be taken from the fatal machine. Next the inquisitor-general was brought before the infernal engine called "the Virgin." He was ordered to embrace her, and begged hard to be excused. "No," said the soldiers; "you have caused others to kiss her, and now you must do it." They interlocked their bayonets, so as to form large forks, and with these pushed him over the deadly circle. The beautiful image, prepared for the embrace, instantly clasped him in its arms, and cut him into innumerable pieces. The French commander, after having witnessed the torture of four of the barbarous inquisitors, sickened at the awful scene, and he left the soldiers to wreak their vengeance on the other guilty inmates of that prison-house of hell.

@ Horus

Hell is a fabrication.The concept of hell is something that was created in the hearts and minds of the authors of your Bible and Koran. Before you were informed of what and where hell was, it never crossed your mind to even think about it. So, within the pages of your scriptures hell was born. Just as a God could not exist without the devil, heaven could not exist if there wasn’t a hell.So where did hell come from? It didn’t exist in Adam’s, Noah’s, nor Abraham’s time. It is something that was fabricated so that they could capitalize off of your fear.

This is too weak an argument. It sounds as if you just fabricated this argument.

Welcome Theblessed

Seeing we are dealing with the teaching of baptism, what is your position on infant baptism? What do you think about sprinkling as utilized by the priests as a mode of baptism?

@ Alam Tara

JESUS NEVER DIED ON THE CROSS. HE WAS NEVER BURIED. AND HE NEVER ROSE FROM THE DEAD

So tell me who hung on the cross, and who was taken down and buried in Joseph's tomb?

Hi do you believe in the Holy Bible? Do you believe what Jesus himself said? Well Jesus has told us that he never died on the cross.

from I was a child I fell in love with the bible.

When the Pharisees asked Jesus to give them a sign this is what Jesus said to them." A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. But no sign shall be given to you except the sign of Jonas. As Jonas was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale so the son of man (Jesus) shall be in the belly of the earth. Mathew 12:40

The question is  DID JONAS DIE?

the answer is NO JONAS  DID NO DIE IN THE STORY WE ARE TOLD IN THE BIBLE. JONAS WAS A SIGN TO THE NINEVITES. HE DID NOT DIE.

But guess what, Jesus wasn't using the story to discount his own death. You cannot use every detail in Jonah's story to negate what the prophets pointed to long before there was a Jonah. The whole purpose of Christ having to come in the first place was to live that righteous life, and then suffer the death that we deserve.

You ask me to prove it?  OK

1)  When Jonas was on the deck of the ship was he dead or alive?   answer 1) Jonas was alive.

2) When Jonas was thrown out of the ship, was he dead or alive?     answer    2) Jonas was alive.

3) When Jonas hit the water of the sea was he dead or alive?            answer     3) Jonas was alive.

4) When Jonas was swallowed by the whale was he dead or alive?    answer     4) Jonas was alive.

5) When Jonas was in the belly of the whale was he dead or alive?     answer     5) Jonas was alive.

6) When Jonas was spat out by the whale was he dead or alive?      answer    6) Jonas was alive.

At no time in the story(parable)(Sign) was Jonas dead. Never. Jonas did not die. Jesus in his usual mystery has told everyone." Just as it was with Jonas so shall it be with the Son of Man." Jonas spent three days and three nights in the belly of the whale. And all the time he was alive. Jesus also spent three days in the belly of the earth AND AT NO TIME WAS HE DEAD SO THERE WAS NEVER ANY RESURRECTION.

Just as Jonah was delivered from what seemed impossible, so was Christ about to be delivered from what most persons thought was impossible, speaking of being resurrected from the dead.  Anyone can read a story and select what they think it symbolizes. You're not unique, but to insist in applying what you think it means at the expense of what other scriptural passages have to say about the death of Christ suggest you do not understand, or respect what God's words have to say.

Friends JESUS was put on the cross .Yes. But he did not die. He was brought down alive.

And you're saying that based on your initial understanding of Jonah's story? What other evisdence do you have apart from Jesus' use of Jonah's situation? Is it safe to build an argument around  several verses?

The Romans devised crucifixion as a long, slow and painful death. To speed up the process of death the legs of those crucified were broken. Jesus' legs were not broken because the soldiers thought he was dead.

And based on David's prediction His legs were not broken. So your reasons for Jesus not dying don't hold.

@ austin

The Christian mythologists, after having confined Satan in a pit, were obliged to let him out again to
bring on the sequel of the fable. He is then introduced into the garden of Eden in the shape of a
snake, or a serpent, and in that shape he enters into familiar conversation with Eve, who is no ways
surprised to hear a snake talk; and the issue of this tete-a-tate is, that he persuades her to eat an apple,
and the eating of that apple damns all mankind.


we are told, the bible is the word of God. It is, therefore, proper for us to know who told us so, so that we may know what credit to give to the report. The answer to this question is, that nobody can tell, except that we tell one

Based on your response am I fair in concluding that you do not believe the biblical account of Adam and Eve? It seems you have a lot of questions that need clarification, correct?

Well, let us talk. I don't have all the answers but I am willing to reason with you if you don't mind.

@ Chuck

i wish you best of luck you can continue professing your faith without being baptised from now till the end of the world.in the next world we will find out who is right

I think you need to re-read what was said about baptism again in this thread. Did you read anywhere where it was suggested by me, or anyone else who contributed to this section, that persons shouldn't be baptized?

You aught to be more careful Chuk.

@ Pip lord

is that awful place called hell real or is it some scary bedtiime story? i am not really a believing man and data and facts are important to me. is hell real? if true, wats the proof?

To be honest pip, there are a lot of misunderstandings among Christians as to what hell is, but one thing is certain hell was made for the devil and his angels, but will only include humans who choose to follow Satan's ways.

I believe based on biblical teachings that the burning hell that the bible speaks of doesn't take place until after the 1000 years spoken of in Revelation 20 is complete.

The 1000 years fall between the 1st and 2nd resurrections. The 2nd resurrection is for the wicked dead, while the 1st is for the righteous dead.

Revelation 20:4-6 describe the scene in this manner, "4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Here John speaks about those who went to heaven, obviously the redeemed, but in verse 5 he speaks about the rest of the dead not coming back to life until after the 1000 years were ended. It is these persons that will rise again to face the white throne judgement, and ultimately the lake of fire.


Notice Revelation 20:7-9, "7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

What most do not understand is that Satan was bound in the sense that he had no one to tempt during the 1000 years, and the logical question is why? The bible has the answers if you take time to study it pages. When Christ returns "the dead in Christ will rise first, " and they will join the living righteous in going to heaven according to the apostle Paul, 15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The living wicked will be struck dead by the brightness and glory of Christ's second return, and their bodies will lie across the entire earth where they were when Jesus returned. The wicked dead will remain in the grave until after 1000 years after the 1st resurrection of the righteous.

This is why the earth will once again become uninhabited during the 1000 years leaving Satan bound with circumstances not in his favor. Satan and his angels will go on vacation for 1000 years to contemplate their fate, and to view the earth in its broken down state referred to in Revelation 20:2-3 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

The bottom less pit mentioned here is not some deep hole where Satan will be thrown in as some believe. The phrase "bottomless pit" is used to describe the earth in its uninhabitable state, because of the destruction that occurs when Jesus and His angels return to earth the 2nd time. The earth will be broken up according to several bible passages, and I will give you a few below.

Revelation 6:14-17 say, "14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Jeremiah 4:23-27 predict, "23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."

Isaiah 24:1-3 predict, "1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. 2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. 3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word."

From these passages its obvious that the day of the LORD is the actual return of Jesus Christ. Even Matthew describes the coming with these words, "30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

That power that is described will be no ordinary power.

So in essence hell will occur after the wicked are raised and shown their fate, and that will happen only after the 1000 years are ended, and not before.

Listen to me carefully. No wicked person goes to hell after death, and neither do the righteous go to heaven after death. Everyone awaits their resurrection. For the righteous its the first resurrection, and for the wicked its the 2nd.

Hell is when God pours or rains down fire from heaven upon Satan, his angels, and all the wicked who chose to follow him. So in essence the whole earth will be set ablaze, while God and His people watch from the fire-proof Jerusalem which descends from heaven and is suspended over the earth.