₦airaland Forum

James it seems no one finds the topic interesting. Why did you bring up the topic anyway?

I hate to have to remind you that no one goes to heaven after they die. They go to the grave. Why do you think that Jesus, and the apostles refer to death as a sleep?

Paul says, "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

What would be the point of having to judge Christians after they already would have been in heaven? Recall that the apostle Paul said that ", all shall appear before the judgment seat of Christ"

Listen to what Jesus said,
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." (John 5:25)

Jesus continues in John 5:28-29, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

The apostle Paul reminded us again in his epistle to the church at Thessalonica when he said, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Notice the phrase in bold in the last part of the last sentence. Paul is saying that we shall be with the Lord after His second coming and after the first resurrection. Only the dead in Christ will rise first.

Going back to the first point I made about the judgment. It is only after Christ has judged completely that anyone will be allowed to have everlasting life (except for Enoch, Moses and Elijah who are already in heaven). Listen to what John said:

Revelation 22:11,12, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Amen.

Both Lucifer and Satan are the same being. Satan was first called Lucifer which was a covering cherub, or what is known as a special angel who stood in the immediate presence of God.

In Ezekiel 28: 12-14 we read:

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.


The king of Tyrus mentioned here was a being used by Satan to resist the people of God, but the description used by the prophet was directed at Lucifer.

In Daniel 10 we read, But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Here the term "prince of the kingdom of Persia" is used to represent Satan's attempt to frustrate Daniel. It took Christ Himself, who is called Michael, to assist Daniel. Michael is called one of the chief princes, or rulers in heaven.

13:Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Here the prophet further describes the beauty of Lucifer before he fell. To the prophet he appeared to be covered with beautiful and precious stones, but in reality those were actual colors glowing from Lucifer.

14:Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

The expression "cherub that covereth" can only be attributed to angels; not humans.

But in all truth it really isn't. God has nothing to gain from punishing the wicked all through the ceaseless ages of eternity. Any christian who postulates such absurdity has no clue what the bible teaches.

As for you Zino Ben you need to use less sarcasm in your responses. If I detect that you're not searching for real answers, then its pointless going there with you. I gather you're not here to learn, but to ridicule, and I am not here to play that game.

Just let me know when you're serious.

@ Zion Ben

lol @topic

Only unintelligent and people with pea sized brains can believe such crock that a hell exists. The very notion of this concept poses a million questions that christian apologists cannot remotely answer talkless of defend in any rational or sensible manner whatsoever. A sampler of these questions goes thus:

Don't be too sure of that, !

1. Ok what is hell? Ans: A place where bad people or unbelievers go to if they don't believe the word of god, hmm, Well this might sound reasonable okay for a child under 7 to believe but as an adult, pssf, it poses some challenges e.g:

I understand your position. Blame those false teachers who distort the meaning of the word hell. The word hell is translated from different words each having their own meaning.

In the Old testament we find: 31 times from "sheol" which means grave.

In the New testament we find the use of hades 10 times which means the grave, we also find the use of gehenna 12 times which means "the place of burning" , we also find the use of tartarus being used once to mean "a place of darkness"

54 times in all.

Where is that place located? After the clouds or under the seas? because after 1000s of years of geological discoveries, nobody seems to have discovered hell.

Hell is both a place and an event. This earth will become a ball of fire but only after God has finished judging all men and showing them their deeds, and why He must put an end to their miserable lives. Some Christians teach erroneously, which is unfortunate, that while God's redeemed will share eternal life in heaven, the wicked will somehow suffer eternally in hell. The bible says "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth" That means that after God destroys sin and sinners, and cleanses the earth with fire that falls from heaven, He will re-create a new earth in which all God's people will live, including God Himself. His temple will be among us.

God will certainly hold these false teachers responsible for distorting His word.

Also, how do people go to hell? Do they take a bus, plane, float, okada?HuhHuh??

LOL, I had to laugh to that one. Forgive me. According to Revelation 20 God's fire will descend upon the wicked, And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This fire will fall from heaven when all of mankind that ever lived on this earth from different generations will meet in one place. God's people will be safe in His city looking at those on the outside, while all those on the outside will be destroyed. The bible says the fire will devour them.

Also, its just plain biology or logic to know that after the human body dies, the body decomposses and the skeletons dry up and wither. Now what goes to hell? The decomposed body or what?

Yes I agree but you need to remember that God will bring back to life both the righteous and the wicked. Both will experience a resurrection, except that the righteous would have been given an immortal body, while the bodies of the wicked will be as before they died. While we have life everlasting, they are subject to the death that is coming called the second death in scriptures.

Most christians will argue here foolishly that it is your soul that goes to hell or heaven, but you still fall back to that question of what is a soul? What form or shape is it? Diametre, size, height and a host of questions. Does the soul float or what? Does it have human hair, eyes, teeth, buttocks, private parts etc or what? Does the soul wear clothes and what kind of clothes? 4,000 year old jewish swaddles and sandals or Gucci jeans and fendi tops? Is the soul naked or looks like an alien with 33 fingers and 4 heads with one huge eye ball?

If you view the word soul as a mere expression used to describe a living being then fine. That is all it is. Another word for soul is being, creature, etc. It is just an expression. The bible says that man became a living soul after God blew breath into his nostrils. You see sometimes the bible uses certain phrases or words that may seem contradictory, but if we examine the context carefully we walk away smiling. We ourselves coin words or phrases. We use a regular word and apply it differently. The writers o fold did likewise. So its possible to find the word soul in other sections of the bible carrying a different meaning, based on the context in which it was used.

Then wise christians would quickly jump to the aid of their drowning fellows and say, "It is your spirit that goes to hell"? and we go back to the age old question. What is a spirit? How does a spirit look like? Is it an obama reincarnation or hitler look alike? does a spirit piss or shit? How does the spirit function without its vital organs like a heart, kidney, liver and blood running through its veins? How can something that doesnt have biological tissues speak, touch or move?

The spirit is one's life force. Its the same thing as the breath that was placed in Adam's lifeless body. It is God who places this spirit in us and only He can remove it, and incidentally Solomon says it goes back to God after death. Secondly it is not the same as the soul as some would have us believe.

2. Ok if you can remotely wiggle yourself from this embarassing dilema, then explain how does a spirit or soul that neither has any biological feature get burned especially for eternity and feel pain? It just like saying, the stone that is burning is actually crying out loud for it not to get burned?

There has to be a blend of both body and life(spirit or life force) for suffering to take place. After the fire destroys sinners, and their bodies perish, then God will reclaim that life force. It has always been His. The spirit that maintains life came from Him.

3. Ok talking about burning, where does the fire come from? How does fire burn eternally without it quenching at some point. Thats why when i ever i hear such daft and moronic prayers like "Holy ghost fire burn him," i just sigh and wonder how an educated person could repeat such bulls**t over and over again. Is the holy spirit a fire spitting dragon or a member of the X-MEN named Pyro? Where does the fire emanate from? does he use charcoal, kerosine or fuel to burn or how else do you create fire and induce it to burn continously?

If you read above you would see where the fire came from. As was said it falls from heaven where God dwells.

5. How do you burn eternally? Is there a calendar of sort that says if you enter hell on the 23 of August 2008, you can check back in 2038 if the fire is still burning that single soul or spirit and proably check back in year 2674 to top the kerosene that has been added by the devil to burn you forever? I guess the rising cost of fuel world wide doesnt affect Hell Grin

Rest assured no one burns everlastingly.

Zawad I'd have to agree with you. No one goes to heaven, or hell after they die. Persons will attempt to show you passages that not even they themselves fully understand the context in which those those passages were written.

The scripture makes it very clear that Christ will judge all men and that after such a judgment all men will receive their just reward whether it be eternal life or eternal death. Note I said "eternal death" versus "eternal suffering".

Listen to Jesus's own words:

Revelation 20:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Jesus simply cannot give out rewards before they are due, and they are due after the judgment. That is why there has to be a judgment, or the opening of the books.

Some persons are quick to jump to passages that seem to indicate that persons after death go to heaven. One passage in particular pints to the thief on the cross. The punctuation of the sentence wrongly implies that thought. The Greek in its original format was not punctuated, but each translation was, and that is where the problem started.

Translators with their religious biases, placed commas, and other forms of punctuation marks, where they thought they should be. Here is one instance:

Luke 23:, "42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43:And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Notice what happens to the meaning when we place the comma after the word Today in the sentence.

"I say unto you today, thou shalt be with me in paradise."

In other words Jesus simply was assuring that thief that same day that his place was secured in paradise, and not that on the very same day he was going to heaven. Besides, not even Jesus went to heaven after He died. Jesus rose on the third day, and even remarked to Mary not to hold on to Him for he had not yet ascended back to His Father.

Another passage 2 Cor. 5, that they attempt to distort so as to justify their belief system is the one that refers to being absent from the body and present with the Lord. Paul isn't using this passage to suggest what happens after death, but rather to express his desire and longing to get rid of that body he possessed, which could only be dis-possessed when Jesus returns.

Paul made sure to clarify in 1 Corinthians 15 the realty of the resurrection, and that during such a resurrection our mortal bodies would one day be immortal. While he expected that, he had no qualms expressing that desire, or longing to be with the Lord.

If we believe the bible to be united in its themes of truth, then we shouldn't have to isolate passages of scripture to highlight erroneous doctrines. Too often we develop scant regard for God's word in favour of church teachings.

@ SeunT21

Me and my 2nd cousin got into this yesterday. She is not a religious person. She try to convince me that the reason Jesus was crucified was because he had no choice. She said quote"That God Forced Jesus to go through it because it was part of his plans"?

What do my fellow Christians brothers and sisters think?

Was Jesus force to be crucified or did he have a choice?

The answer is no. Christ volunteered to die. He chose to die. Christ still had that choice as a human. He could have turned back from Calvary if He had chosen to do that, but He would have done it at His own peril. Most Christians don't understand that Christ when He became human could have sinned. Sounds a bit blasphemous doesn't it?

If you stop to think about it you will understand what I mean. The first Adam sinned and caused the whole human race to inherit the sinful nature, and tendencies. Satan got Adam and Eve to break God's commands. The struggle between good and evil is hinged on whether God's creatures are able to keep God's instructions through love, or whether we are forced to accept them because God is a despot. Satan wants us to think of God that way. He doesn't want us to trust God.

So he deceived a 1/3 of God's angels to rebel based on distrust. He then deceived mankind to also distrust God based on his argument to Eve as to why God doesn't want her to eat from the forbidden tree. He got her to think that if God was as good and just as he desires us to think, then why not grant freedom to do what one desires to do. Why should God place limits on His creatures?

So in order for God to have restored or redeemed "that which was lost" including humans, He had to die in our stead. He couldn't change His law which stood at the foundation of His justice system, so He chose to suffer its penalty for us. In order to be able to suffer He, God the Son, who is One with the Father, volunteered to take on human nature so that He the second Adam would be subject to all that the first Adam was subject to and more.

Christ knew of the risks, but He also knew that if He subjected Himself to God's will He would have been successful. So its not like Christ was programmed to not sin, or to not go contrary to His Father's will. To the contrary. He took on human nature, and that means He was subject to temptations just like us. However, thank God He prevailed.

If I were in Lucifer's position before the rebellion, knowing what I know now, I'd have stayed true to God's rule and authority.

Hell is real for sure if we are believers of God's word, but as to what hell is exactly is viewed differently by others.

To me hell is more an event taking place over a period of time as a means of punishment for the wicked. What I don't believe is that its a location where people burn indefinitely, as as some put it, burning forever. I will go as far as saying that it will be the whole earth that will be on fire. Listen to Peter:

[b]2 Peter 3:10[/b] "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Note what Peter said in verse 13, Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Simple isn't it? God will cleanse this earth with fire of sin, wicked men, evil angels, prepared for Satan and his angels. If we choose to follow Satan and his emiisaries, then it simply means we will inherit their punishment.

Sorry to burst your bubble friend. Present truth doesn't cater to the false teaching of the rapture.

Present truth means abiding by God's word in its entirety.

I understand your frustration, but remember that all these things must come to pass according to Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24.

Remember He said that many will be deceived. He also said that false teachers would arise and deceive many with their miracles and lying wonders.

You see my friend, there are some Christians who gravitate toward sensationalism and miracles of the wrong kind, not realizing that Satan will use miracles to deceive. They ignorantly accept all miracles as having come from God. The RCC has its own sets of miracles, in the Marian apparitions that are taking place in some sections of the globe, where millions of people actually believe that Mary is alive, and is now somehow ministering in heaven next to Christ Himself.

As it was in the times of the pre-reformation period, where gross darkness and superstition ruled the masses of Europe, so will it be among the world today.

May God help us all to see plain biblical truth, before that day comes when the whole "world will wonder after the beast"

This is what I have been talking about for the longest while now, that the gift of tongues as seen and understood by some Christians is more than what we are seeing. That isn't God's Spirit at work. God says "come let us reason together" He is not the author of confusion, and no one needs to ask whose spirit it is that leads to confusion.

In answer to your question, madness to the nth degree.

That is an interesting combination,

@ Rockiedink and Noetic

I asked Pilgrim to respond to my question as to what happens to the spirit of the wicked when he/she dies. She's clueless. Like Rockiedink says the bible is its own interpreter. Instead of extrapolating we need to simply accept what it says. If it says the dead are asleep then lets accept that.

@ Pilgrim

@Bobbyaf,

You are really buying time, aint you? Grin Well done. Let me show you how very smart you think you are:

Really now!

Quote from: Bobbyaf on Yesterday at 06:26:09 AM
I want to hear from you as to what happens to the wicked man when he dies? What happens to his spirit?

If you did not know what happens to the spirit of the wicked man when he dies, then what did you mean by the spirits of ALL PERSONS going back to God in this quote:

Quote from: Bobbyaf on Yesterday at 06:26:09 AM
We know that all persons who die that their spirits go back to God.

I know what I quoted. You need not remind me. The point I am making is very simple. I am not the one who started out with the idea that when the righteous dies his spirit is aware and conscious. The fact is you are in agreement.

Did you detract there to assume that the spirits of ALL persons would subtract those of the wicked? I simply want to know how you want to play this game before I walk you out tying your shoelace. If your "ALL" includes the wicked, what is the question again? Cheesy

Let me repeat it again since you either failed to comprehend the question, or are just skipping around it. What happens to the spirit of the wicked who dies? Is his or her spirit aware when compared to that of the righteous after death?

I would like you to quote me directly - and then perhaps you will see why this game of yours is not helping you gain anything. If you care for a genuine discussion, please offer the same.

Why should I see the need to quote you when we already know your stance on the subject matter.

Scuttling around these excuses when you are yet to address the several pointers that have been offered you is no way to demonstrate that you truly have a grip on your persuasions. I simply would like to see you discuss rather than offer excuses.

Cheers.

All the pointers are very much the same, but they are nowhere near what the bible teaches.

In either case I am afraid you simply don't want to answer fearing that in responding your ideas will come to naught. To avoid that simply speak the truth. Answer the question.

@ Pilgrim

Lol, how come you seem to be quickly abandoning ship? Is Ecclesiastis 12 v 7 (which you have often quoted) no longer applicable to your question? If not, please tell us WHY.

You need to answer my question. I know what Solomon said. I want to hear from you as to what happens to the wicked man when he dies? What happens to his spirit? We know that all persons who die that their spirits go back to God. Since you are the one that advocates a spirit that somehow is aware and conscious, then is the spirit of the wicked who dies also conscious and aware?

Tell us Pilgrim!

@ Pilgrim

Quote from: Bobbyaf on Yesterday at 05:53:13 AM
Simplify that for a 6 year old. What does soul mean in that verse? Give me one word.

"Creature" - that is the word in Hebrew in that verse and applies to both man and animals. I have earlier stated that "The exegesis of the soul in Scripture points to the component that identifies man in his distinct personality" - and that was just to help us seek a proper contextual meaning of the word "soul" as used in Scripture for man.

I am glad you have given a definition rather than what you think soul means.

Bobbyaf, what exactly do you mean by the "breath of life"?

The spirit, The bible uses both interchangably.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on Yesterday at 06:09:11 AM
Noticed the bible said that man became a living soul, and not that man possessed a soul? To become something and to have something are two different things.

Could you kindly enunciate from Scripture the difference between "possessing" and "becoming" something in regards especially to the soul?

I don't have to Pilgrim. Open your eyes. Didn't Genesis say man "became' a living soul? Why waste time asking the obvious?

Quote from: Bobbyaf on Yesterday at 06:09:11 AM
Satan has decieved the masses into thinking that man's soul is eternal, so that when he dies his soul lives on. Because of this man does not see the need to accept God's plan of salvation through Jesus' sacrificial death. Whats the point he asks, when my soul can't die? My soul will take another form somehow and continue living.

Instead of pushing your own agenda, why don't you try and exercise the humility of sharing your persuasions without assuming that counter views to yours are the result of Satan having deceived anybody? What if it turns out that your pride is actually contrary to what Scripture teaches?

Has Satan decieved the likes of the Hindus, Bhuddists, and others, including some christians that teach that the soul of man is eternal? I was the one who reminded one and all that Ezekiel said that "the soul that sinneth shall die" The soul of mankind is mortal and is subject to death, and that is why my so-called agenda is in keeping with Holy Writ. I take pride in pushing a biblical agenda.

That the soul survives the death of the [physical] body does not mean that people therefore see no need to accept God's gift of salvation in Christ.

The soul is simply a descriptive expression, not an internal entity to be survived or separated from the body after death. That is why Ezekiel said the soul that sins shall die, which means it shall cease to exist, unless God restores the spirit or breath of life, causing the soul, or being, or creature, or person to come back to life.

That idea as expressed in your post is a farce and a mechanical device to assume things that are far-fetched.

The idea is very much a stark reality. Open your eyes and take a look.

Scripture reveals that the soul survives the death of the body; however, it is a question of what state of existence the soul is found in after it leaves the body. It is rather another type of existence that the soul experiences.

That sounds like pure speculation, not scripture. Go back to what Ezekiel the inspired prophet said about the soul that sinneth. In other words, the person that sins, and I supect in a broader context means, the person that lives a life of sin will experience the eternal death. We are already aware of the natural death that comes upon man because of Adam's sin.

That this is the case is what the Bible teaches in such verses as 1 Kings 17:21-22 --

'And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD,
and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him
again, and he revived.'

Soul in this context means life.

What actually happened in this narrative is simple to follow. The child was dead and his body was there before Elijah; but his soul was not in the body. The prphet prayed: "let this child's soul come into him again." This simply demonstrates that te soul was still existing, albeit OUTSIDE his body. When God answered Elijah's prayer, then "the soul of the child came into him again".

Save yourself the expliquee. An interplay of words used here in the passage no doubt is unique, but it doesn't change the real definition of what the soul really is. Its an expression that describes the composite existence of man and animals. Another rendition (NKJV)puts it this way,

1 Kings 17:21 And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.” 22 Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.

1 Kings 17:21(NIV) Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried to the LORD, "O LORD my God, let this boy's life return to him!"

For the first passage notice the big difference in meaning between "into him" and "back to him"

For the second rendition I don't need to say what the word soul means. Its what I have said before. Soul means life in that particular context.

Question: where was this child's soul before it returned to ("came into. . . again" his body?

It was nowhere! Its just an expression. When a person dies the soul has no reason to exist, since its just another word to describe that person who still has the breath of life or spirit in him.

Again, Luke 16 highlights the fact that the soul survives the death of the body. Both the rich man and Lazarus died (v. 22) and we see their existence beyond their bodies in the grave (v. 23-31). Many people argue that since this was a "parable", it could not be teaching the realities of existence beyond the grave - and so they just disregard its value. My simple answer to such attitude is that they should also be ready to disregard the value of any and all the parables in the Bible - if parables are merely meant to be disregarded at all!

Not all parables should be taken literally. Imagry used by Jesus, as was the custom of most biblical writers, was never meant to be taken seriously. Don't focus on the metaphoric imageries, rather focus on the deeper meaning of what Jesus desired to point out. Do you really believe that one drop of water will be able to quench the thirst of anyone? Do you really believe that vast amount of people will be resting in the bosom of Abraham? Parables carry an idea, that usually carries more significance that the imageries used to represent such ideas.

Another example, we find that Revelation 6:9-10 specifically demonstrates that the saints who were slain actually were seen as "souls" without their bodies. Beyond that, these souls without bodies were heard as "they cried with a loud voice". Please note that this was not a parable; and we cannot deny its fact as a reality beyond our known physical world.

Its your interpretation versus anyone elses. The book is in most cases highly symbolic. Sometimes John spoke in tenses that seemd historic, but had to do with furure actions. The event that took place vis a vis the souls actually took place after John's time. In vision God took him forward to the event. He saw the souls of those who lived during the time of the persecutions during the dark ages.

These scriptures cited [1 Kings 17:21-22; Luke 16; Revelation 6:9-10] are examples that point out the fact that the soul survives the death of the body; and unless you have an alternative exegesis for those texts, please have the humility of refraining from assumptions of thinking others have been deceived by Satan.

I just gave you a few above.

@ Jerrymania

Get It. Man can't be a soul without the spirit. The fusion of flesh and spirit makes man "a living soul".

As was confirmed by Geneis 2:7

You see, Adam was not a dead soul before recieving the "breath of life". He was simply lifeless, not dead. The transition only took place after God blew the breath of life into his nostrils. Noticed the bible said that man became a living soul, and not that man possessed a soul? To become something and to have something are two different things.

Satan has decieved the masses into thinking that man's soul is eternal, so that when he dies his soul lives on. Because of this man does not see the need to accept God's plan of salvation through Jesus' sacrificial death. Whats the point he asks, when my soul can't die? My soul will take another form somehow and continue living.

See where I am going with this? So in essence the word soul means life, being, person, creature, etc. The prophet says "the soul that sins shall die", and the death of which he speaks is both the natural death, as well as the eternal death.

@ Pilgrim

The exegesis of the soul in Scripture points to the component that identifies man in his distinct personality.

Simplify that for a 6 year old. What does soul mean in that verse? Give me one word.

@ Uzzyan

You say you're honouring Mary, but how can you when she is dead? Why honour a dead person? What proof have you that she is alive according to Catholic teaching? Worse yet, what proof do the priests have that she is queen of heaven?

So let me ask a question. When the wicked dies where does his spirit go?

Perhaps again, since all we ever see is a theory of "recycling", then we may want to recycle the Muslim "prophecy" of Muhammad in Deuteronomy once again! Grin

Hahaha thats a good one.

@ Gangaseed

Could this be true? if it is true do we now agree that the Catholics are the anti Christ?

I wouldn't say the Catholics are the anti-Christ. You have to make a distinction between church members and their leaders. There are a lot of Catholics who love God and are sincere in their worship. These are the ones that Christ is calling to come out of a system that is opposed to what Christ stands for.

So in essence its the system that is anti-Christ. The books of Daniel and Revelation have associated certain characteristics that have been, and are being fulfilled in the teachings of the Roman Catholic church.

Even one of their own priests named Martin Luther eventually concluded that his own organization was anti-Christ. Recall that he was one of its chief reformers.

Before I answer you the poster can I ask you a question? What does it mean to be born again?

Does the author of the books know the future? The bible's author is God who has declared the future. What say the Q'uran? Has it made significant predictions that we can definitively say have come to pass?

Declare thyself Moslems!

Pilgrim please note that "breath of life" is different from breath. So when you refer to my posts, do so honestly and completely.

All life has the spirit in them. When all die that spirit goes back to God who gave it. Someone stated above that man is a spirit. Come on goodly people.

What does the word soul mean in this passage?

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I believe so. I believe(and this is my belief), that we as humans in the earth made new will have far more powers to do what we were limited to do in this life. If we are amazed about technology today then we aint seen anything yet.

@ Ricadelide

Lol @Bobbyaf,
Sorry but, this is getting rather tedious.
Are you trying to pull our legs, make us laugh a little, make the thread last a little longer or you're just having a hard time readjusting to the fact that your arguement holds no water and what you've accepted for so long isn't true? Cheesy

I have to laugh. My argument holds no water? Its not my argument its God's.

I could reply to your post - and I particularly have many things to say about your many quotes from Ecclessiastes and your other points - but instead (since this has turned to more of a debate than a discussion) I'd ask the same questions I asked noetic:

Debate you say? Its a discussion.

* since you claim the spirit means "the breath of life" and you're aware of references in Genesis 6:17, 7:15 that lets us know that animals have the "breath of life" in them, are you then saying that animals have spirits?
* In your view is there any difference between the makeup of a human being and that of an animal?

Let us see from scriptures!

In Genesis 7:15: So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was found the breath of life.

In Ezekiel 37:5 "Thus says the Lord God to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life.

So here we see both animals and humans possess the same breath of life, both in the sense of maintaining life and in another sense to restore life. So if we see the association between spirit being the same thing as breath of life then your question is answered. This latter aspect appeals to the resurrection reality, in that when Jesus returns the second time He will call the righteous from the dust who will possess new and glorified bodies that will once again be given back the same spirit, or life force which they once possessed.

Also note Genesis 7:21,22, "And all flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;, of all that was on dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died."

This text in a more concrete way associates the word "spirit" and "breath"

Note Numbers 27:16: "May the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,, "

This text says without a doubt that all flesh including animals possess the spirit.

With regards to the grand Wink equation you came up with (soul = spirit + body), I have just one advice; remember that 1Thess. 5:23 is still in the bible - perhaps Paul didn't come across that your equation in 'good' time.
Cheers Smiley

1 Thes 5:23 says And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not sure what you want this text to say, but soul as used in this passage means the composite of life. Its always a term used to describe the existence of life. Of course people see what they were either taught, or what they desire to see. I am saying this is how I see the passage.

Cheers.

So longman do you actually believe that Saul spoke to Samuel who was dead and buried? Hahahaha, You really have a lot to learn.

Why do you think God would establish a law against consulting with familiar spirits, if when anyone died then they could easily communicate with the living?

If spirits of men had consciousness of their surroundings after leaving the respective bodies after death, then all God had to do was to give them bodies right there and then without having to await the resurrection. Why the time lapse?

Let me ask you guys a question. When God made Adam from the dust before blowing the breath of life into him, how would you describe Adam? Imagine Adam's intact body with all its organs just lying there fresh from God's doing.

Lets look at the record in Genesis 2:7, And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being

Was he a soul before the breath of life entered? Absolutely not! Now listen as Solomon spoke about what happens to man when he dies, Ecclesiastes 12:7, Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Most translations if not all agree that the word "spirit" means "breath of life". It is this breath of life that departs us when we die. When we take our last breath, the spirit goes back to God.

If your response is that man became a living soul after the breath entered his body, then why is it so difficult to see that if the reverse takes place man can no longer be a living soul? There can not be an entity with any form of awareness or consciousness. This spirit cannot therefore be seen as either a person, being, creature, or any other entity whatsoever.

It is important for us to take note of the word "soul". In the context of this discussion we'd have to define soul as meaning being or person in terms of how we see Genesis 2:7, In other words Genesis says man became a living soul. He doesn't really possess a soul. The word soul as used in Genesis is the composite of body and breath of life. So if we were to use an equation to highlight what it is trying to say we'd have:

Body + Breath of life(spirit) = soul or being, or creature.   Put another way we have:

Soul = body + spirit

Using simple commense sense we should see that if the factor body from the equation disappears then what are we left with?  Certainly not Soul = spirit. Once there is no body there can be no existence of a soul.

The body descends to the dust, and the spirit goes back to God in heaven, hence no more existence of a soul.

QED, 

@ Longman83

Not surprisingly, I sense a great deal of semantic confusion here, esp. over the word 'spirit'.

There is actually no confusion at all. The spirit means "breath of life"

Let's leave that for now. Noetic, Bobbyaf et al, if I understand your position properly, you are saying that there is no consciousness in the grave. If that is the case then,

Jesus calls death a sleep. (See John 11)

How do you explain the conversation between Saul and the spirit of a dead Samuel in 1 Samuel 28?

Well, in actual fact king Saul communicated with a "familiar spirit" or one of Satan's demons pretending to be Samuel. Today people practise chanelling, or using a medium to reach their supposedly loved ones who are alive in the spirit world. This kind of practice was forbidden by God. God knew that Satan was only decieving people into believing that when a person dies they are not really dead. Recall that satan once led Eve to believe the same thing when he told her she would not surely die if she ate the forbidden fruit.

Thats why I am wary of such arguments about people going to heaven after death. The spirit that goes back to God in heaven is not conscious or aware of what is going on, since it only the breath of life and nothing more.

How do you explain the appearance of a long-dead Moses talking with Jesus in his Transfiguration(Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4, Luke 9:30,31?[li][/li]

Simple. Moses was resurrected. How else do you explain his conversation with Christ.