₦airaland Forum

I agree. Don't get personal with people. Discuss the issues rather than people.

@ Lady

oga i started this thread, because protestants claim that the church doesn't teach the truth, and they misinterpret the bible alot, and you guys have been asking questions a lot about catholicism, we have answered u full and well,

Yet you were never able to explain why in heaven's name were there three popes ruling the RCC.

In my thread I posted a list of blasphemous names ascribed to the pope that you constantly asked for sources to prove me right, when its obvious that you have no clue about the RCC of which you are apart.

How do you explain the massacre of innocent men, women and children in France in one day. King Charles IX of France, under the sway of his mother, Catherine de Medici, a staunch catholic, ordered the assassination of Huguenot Protestant leaders in Paris, setting off an orgy of killing that resulted in the massacre of tens of thousands of Huguenots all across France. And why do you ask? These differed in their religious beliefs. Rather than follow the dictates of men most evil, they followed the dictates of the bible, and their conscience.

And there were many more questions posted in my thread that you will never be able to answer.

now it's time to check whether the prots actually have the truth. for example, u guys say the Bible is the only authority well if u read on page one, u will see that the Bible itself proves that doctrine wrong.

Paul said that we are saved by grace through faith alone. You say we cannot be saved until we follow Catholic dogmas that were invented by men. And its not that we have a problem with men being used by God to develop ideas with their God-given abilities, but we are against any traditional teaching that runs contrary to God's instructions. So, away with your cheap shots at the true and genuine protestants.

You guys have asked questions, we have given answers, and now it's time for u to answer questions.

Why would we need to ask questions of you when we already know the history of the RCC. What is there to ask anyway?

Now the Catholic church has not been the problem contrary to popular belief. In fact the Catholic church is the reason western civilization stands today.

So who kept the people in darkness in Europe with religious superstition for over 1000 years?

Why is it that as soon as the RCC lost its power in 1798 under the French Revolution that there was an increase in inventions and research? Why do you think that people believed that the world was flat for hundreds of years, and that the earth was the center of the universe, were it not for the teachings of the Catholic church?

Is it co-incidental that as soon as Bonaparte neutralized the RCC, some years after that the Industrial Revolution began?

Why was it that the RCC only printed the bible in Latin, and that the common man had no access to God's word because of its suppressive acts against those who were in the printing business?

Why do Catholic priests continue to use Latin in their services when people in the congregation don't speak the language in general?

Why do catholic priests continue to use pagan symbols openly and brazenly? Why do Catholics place images of biblical personages and have them kissed by their members, when the bible distinctly says thou shall not make any graven images to represent Him? In fact your organization has removed the 2nd commandment that prohibits such a practice.

Lady you're not qualified to comment on issues that you don't care to honestly research. If you desire to know the truth, you will find i tin God's word. Jesus didn't recommend to search the minds of men for truth. He said, "search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me."

Yup it is the reason u have universities, and hospitals and such, it is the reason science flourished, yes that's right. so instead of going by what you heard on the street and what someone said that someone said that someone said. Do some more research sir and u will see that.

You mean they continued that which was started before in other places. The seat of knowledge didn't only rest with Catholic priests. Certain places in Africa, Egypt, and some Arab areas were also centers of learning. The RCC simply picked up where others started. We know also that the church of Rome used their schools, an still do, to indoctrinate people with their spurious doctrines. Educating people is the least of their mission.

Now answer my questions.

How is the bread and wine not the Body and Blood of Christ?

Why did not the disciples literally eat His flesh even when He said that they should, Jesus said "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you" (John 6:53)

If the disciples didn't see His words as something to be taken literally, then why should we take His words literally as it relates to the bread and wine? Your problem is that you fail to see the symbolism in most of what Christ taught. The priests have taken it up on their heads to empower themselves with this spurious teaching. They simply use this as another way to deceive the mass, no pun intended. Transubstantiation as upheld by your organization robs Christ of His due place in the hearts of men. Instead of lifting up Jesus they reflect on their power to at will re-create the crucifixion. Isn't that what it is all about? Re-creating the crucifixion at will. If that were not so then why say its Jesus' literal body and blood that manifest right there.

How does the doctrine of once saved always saved work?

Unfortunately some Christians believe that teaching, so its not a protestant teaching.

How does the doctrine of faith alone work?

Because we are accounted righteous because of our faith. Hebrews 11 makes that clear. Paul said "for we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works lest any man should boast"

You constantly boast of the works of the RCC. You're guilty of that which Paul denounces. Is it any wonder why monks use to beat themselves in penance? Is it any wonder that sinners had to do penance in order to appease God's judgment and curse as taught by friars and priests?

QED.

why are nairalanders so aggressive?am not saying the Holy bible is corrupt and the koran is real but asking to get answer from cos i dnt know the prophet thats all

Don't worry too much we all face the same issues on religious fora. Learn to be patient with people's weaknesses, because we all have our faults.

If you have any questions I will relate to you. I will be here.

@ uplawal

Obviously either you are a Moslem, or leaning towards being one. The prophet that Moses spoke of could not have been Mohammed since he descended from Ismael, and not Isaac.

Isaac was the chosen lineage through which the prophet spoken of would come. Satan attempted to get Abraham to mess up God's plan, by showing doubt and getting involved with his wife's hand maiden Hagar.

Now we see two nations side by side ever since Hagar and her son Ishmael were separated from the camp. God had made provisions for Ismael to have started a great nation, but He never intended to renege on His promise to raise up a nation from Isaac that would have been the people through whom the Messiah would come.

The topic premises on the assumption that once you mention the word church it has to be the true church. The bible reminds us to look out for the false church. By that very reason we have to give preference to God's words over the church and what it assumes is the correct interpretation, since the the latter needs the right and proper interpretation of the word to be liberated from error.

There have to be checks and balances when it comes to who determines what is truth, and what is error. This is where the word stands alone. We have to depend on the weight of evidence of scriptures to bring out truth. You cannot dare depend on men who purport to be men of God to determine for us what is truth, unless they use the principle of "line upon line, a little here and a little there, " or as Paul suggests ", rightly dividing the word of truth"


The word of God must interpret itself, and it must be seen as the "light unto my path, and a lamp unto my feet"

Besides, there is ample reason now to accept more fully scriptures over tradition seeing we have a history of what can happen when men are left to do as they wish with religion.

When the church of Rome invented an evil device named indulgences, and tied it in with the ability to remove sinners from purgatory if their living relatives paid a certain amount, do you honestly expect us to yield to such church dogmas, when such dogmas are not supported by scriptures?

That is a loaded question Viable. It is easy to say yes because of our being associated with Christian beliefs. Frankly speaking the word God has been one of the most confusing words used among Christians. Very little has been done to define the term God and all that comes with it.

As I said it depends on how one defines the word rapture. I define rapture as the 2nd return of Jesus for His people. It is a literal and personal return. It will be a glorious return.

What it is not is a supposedly secretive return in which Jesus suddenly takes away His people to the surprise of those who will be left behind. That if anything else is un-biblical.

@ Lady

I am aware of the various theories. In either case its really no big deal proving that the word rapture isn't in the bible, since it s already a given that it isn't. Besides, there is no law saying we can't use a word to describe a future event that is recorded in the bible.

Christians use the word millennium to describe the 1,000 years mentioned in Revelation 20. What would be the point in arguing that the word millennium doesn't exist in the bible?

@ Noetic

This is fast becoming a standard answer Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

In other words they know only what they have been taught by men of science. If cells today are able to move by flagella, or whip like tails, which we have come to know as very sophisticated pieces of machinery, then I wonder how did a single cell was able to move about if not by the same sophisticated piece of machinery?

@ huxley

I do not know

Thank you.

Now scientists say that proteins are built by the genes from the DNA double helix. They call it the central dogma of biology of which you're aware no doubt.

Can you tell me if the first cell had a DNA double helix the way we know it today?

One of the problems I have with it is that I do not trust what a software has to say, especially if I had nothing to do with seeing how it was built in the first place. I can't take their word for it.

For me to find legitimacy with such a coding system I'd have to see a manual approach to the decoding even if it takes years to do it. Starting from Genesis right back to Malachi do the decoding manually and then see what comes up.

Why hasn't it yet occurred to the same Jews to verify whether or not Jesus was/is their Messiah?

Why hasn't it yet occurred to the Jews to verify that their Messiah is coming again in glory as Enoch predicted?

It depends on how you define the rapture. If it is a phrase used to describe the second glorious return of Jesus then it is in the bible.

What I refuse to believe in is the secret rapture that says Christ will come and snatch away his church leaving millions of persons on earth to either choose the mark of the beast, or refuse it.

@ Huxley or Kag

Let me ask Huxley, or Kag this question. What comprised the first unicellular organism, and how did it happen to put itself together in such an orderly fashion to have become the launching pad for life?

Revelation is about the fall of the Roman Empire.

And not just pagan Rome but Papal Rome as well, the counterfeit church will fall, but according to prophecy she must be healed and energized to pass its mark.

The Beast is the Emporer Nero.
His name written in Aramaic is valued at 666.

If that were the only criteria to identify the beast fine, but there are 11 prophecies that point to the beast. Surely, when one honestly looks at all the characteristics as mentioned by John there is no room for speculation.

Revelation was a book of it's time. It was written when the Christians were persecuted by the Romans and was only included in the New Testament at a late stage with much controversy.
It is a mistake to think it has some factual relevance today.

The name suggests otherwise, and it speaks of eschatological matters.

@ italo

drinking isnt bad but drunkeness is, just like the bible doesnt critisize eating but it does gluttony.

All it takes is just one sip in most cases. I once heard of a case in which a mother used to put the empty beer bottle to her baby's mouth thinking nothing of it. By the time the little girl turned 7 she was already an alcoholic. When the parents were at work, she would help herself to vodka, and other types of alcoholic beverages. By the time they found out it was already too late.

King Solomon was on target when he said that "wine is a mocker, and strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise, " The deception rests with the thought that drinking alcohol conservatively is reasonable enough. Where the drinking of alcohol is concerned there is nothing conservative about it.

@ Duncan

Let me say this much about the wine that Jesus made from water. It was not fermented. Why would it be anyway? The remarks made about that wine being good and being served last has nothing to do with it being fermented, but speaks of its strength in terms of its concentration.

The other point I'd like to make is that men of old who were called by God had done things that were not exemplary at times, as in the case of Noah's use of fermented wine, but it should not be seen as an excuse for us Christians to indulge in the use of alcohol.

In the case of adultery some of the patriarchs, and most of the kings of Israel were guilty, but it would appear that nothing was wrong with it because of God's apparent silence on the matter, but upon closer inspection we see the consequences that often followed such a practice.

My advice to Christians is to avoid the use of that which is harmful, and to use judiciously that which is good, because even a good thing when used intemperately can become harmful.

@ hymnha

think if mazaje wants to know, he would have known.
To inform u Christians in this forum, mazaje is an atheist. What he needs is prayer and not to reply his posts, else he will make disciples of this feeble hearted.

I know he is an atheist, but what I find opportunistic is his desire to prove the bible wrong. There have been others like him who are now Christians, so let us not give up on him.

@ truth11

I appreciate your candor, but we are not in a position to right off anyone. Bear in mind too that the responses that come from different Christians might just be of help to those who are having issues with the very same passages brought up by mazaje.

By the way only those who are of the elect will be brought before governors to answer for their faith. As you have rightly reminded of the help that God's Holy Spirit will provide at the time appointed to which we agree, but bear in mind that God's Spirit will not bring back to memory what was never studied, memorized, and taught.

Having to respond to the likes of Mazaje keeps me tuned.

you see the problem is that you are saying what the bible does not say at all. . .does the bible tell you that both sentences carry different messages and different ideas?

Common sense tells me that both sentences have different ideas, unless of course grammar and context mean nothing to you. In case you didn't realize the bible was meant to be read intelligently.

you are the one saying that not the bible. the problem with you guys is that you create your own gospel narrative out of what the gospel writers are saying if the passages carry different ideas and messages the writer of the gospel would have said so

Not necessarily! You read without understanding, because you deliberately read out of context, while we read with the understanding.

the passage is very clear, jesus said that he was coimg to reward his listeners according to their deed in his glory and with is angels during the life time of some of them. . . .

Jesus said a lot of things, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try to figure out what is said. Unlike you I go beyond the surface. I take nothing at face value.

how do you know this?

I just happen to know because of research, something you need to adapt.

is that what the bible says?

Jesus spoke in codes in some circumstances, and my job with the aid of His Spirit is to help persons like you who struggle with the bible.

can you see why there is no universally acceptable christian doctorine of belief? you guys say what the bible does not say, your continious repetation makes people to accept it as what the bible is saying. . . if you guys will only stick to what the gospels are saying with out adding your own opinions and interpretation then christianity would not have been the laughing stock that it has become in todays world.

You're free to express your opinion but I doubt if any Christian on this forum will agree with you. Besides, why the concern for truth anyway, since you are rejecting the very embodiment of truth Himself, Jesus Christ.

if i may ask how do you know when jesus is speaking codedly and when he is not speaking codely?

Its obvious only to those who are guided by His Spirit who is the author of the same scriptures you are stumbling over.

it seems when ever you guys see things that you disagree with in the bible you concluded that jesus is speaking in codes or that the passage is an allegory, but when you see things that you agree with then it should be taken as it is written in the bible. . . .

well I will be honest there are some Christians who play that game.

you are neither trained in that area too, do you know bart ehrman? he is was once a very fundamentalist christian and one of the greatest theologians that we have today. . .he learnt greek, hebrew, latin and some coptic langauges just so that he will understand the bible in its original form. he had access to some of the oldest manuscripts of the bible that are available and he saw how very differnt they are from the bible that we have available in the market. he is now an atheist because he came to realise that the bible was strongly edited, mistranslated, and full of copyist errors. him and other open minded christian theologians out there agree that the passage was an error that should have not been included in the bible, by the way efforts where once made to remove those passages from the bible at a time according to bart erhman. . .

How unfortunate! My my! What this very learned theologian didn't seem to realize is the reality of prophetic fulfillment. If the bible weren't true then how do you explain prophetic fulfillment? Didn't Jesus the Messiah come after all in accordance with bible prophecy? So many prophecies have been fulfilled since.

Incidentally I have been trained in theology and religion just so you know. I too studied biblical languages.

@post
Great thread! And long overdue.
Does it mean Christians can ask for advice on faith issues here? And other christians can answer those as well, not just you?

This is for every Christian. We are free to discuss faith issues here as well with the hope of rendering spiritual support to any of us who might be struggling with certain issues, or who might be having difficulties understanding difficult bible passages. So it can be any issue.

Let me ask us to discuss the rudiments of faith in the broader sense. Probably we could begin with the new birth. Where does the Christian journey begins?

This thread is for both sets of people, Christians as well as those who are contemplating becoming one. My opening paragraphs were designed to paint a picture of God's love for us humans.

Can we look at some of the steps we need to take to come to Christ. What do you think the first step is?

I read this thread just to see if those who are responding are Christians or try to defend Jesus. And my fear is confirmed "serious" christians are the respondents and people are trying to defend the Lord Jesus.

Brethren learn: this Atheist and Jesus bashers don't deserve any response when they come in the manner of mazaje's post. I have been in such circle before, so I know what I am saying. You cannot possibly defeat them with the truth that you are convicted of. They waste their life on researching into what fault they can find with the bible and/or Jesus than you spend studying the bible. And they read a lot.

And God does not need anyone to defend him. The longest anyone can live in doubt is to the day of his death, After that the reality will follow.

This I know: no one losses anything serious by following the Lord Jesus and confessing Him

I see your point, but let us see it as an exercise for Christians to ", prove all things" This may be a forum setting, but as you aware a time will come when Christians will have to answer to those in authority.

Besides, this person may very well be sincere in his attempts to question the word. Let us see this as a revision class for those Christians that need to sharpen up their reasoning skills. 

i noticed you did not bother to address the words that i highligted, jesus was very clear when he was telling the people that he will come back with his fathers angels and reward them for what ever they have done, he then concluded that some of them listening to him will not taste death till they see him come.

And there is a simple explanation for it. Both sentences carry different ideas and messages. The prior has to do with Jesus' second return in ultimate glory in which case every eye shall see him according to Revelation 1:7, "Behold He cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him"

The second statement has to do with the miniature glory that was given to some of Jesus' hearers which happened to have been, Peter, James, and John.

What you seem to be overlooking is the fact that Jesus sometimes spoke in codes deliberately so that He could avoid undue trouble from the religious leaders. Often His disciples in private would make their queries if they didn't understand a point made by Jesus.

this are your own conclusions , nothing like that is written in the bible. . . . .

You're not trained in that area so I wouldn't expect you to comprehend. You see when Jesus returns there will be two classes of righteous people - the righteous dead who will be resurrected at His 2nd return, and the living righteous who will not die. Jesus often spoke about this to His very own disciples, who were still not sure, about His mission despite the many miracles He wrought.

What better way to illustrate it than to have Moses and Elijah appear to the disciples in person.

again here is jesus telling people at his trail that they will see him coming on the clouds of heaven in the future. . . .

Now that quote in Matthew 26:64 has to do with the 2nd return, and not what transpired on the mount of transfiguration. In fact Revelation 1:7 provides more details. Indeed the ones who had plotted against Jesus will die for sure, but when Jesus returns again in glory they will be raised just to see Him return with His glory, and that of His Father's, plus that of His angels. Revelation 1:7 says, "7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Yes the Romans physically pierced Him, but it was the Jewish religious leaders that were responsible for the piercing. These leaders will be raised so that Jesus' prediction will come to pass. Just for the moment they will see Jesus whom they pierced return in majestic glory, but will be struck down again by the same glory. The only ones who will be able to withstand such a glory are all those who have been accounted righteous.

these verse is very clear, here we have jesus telling his listeners to take note of the things that will happen, he gave them the signs of things that will happen when he is about to come and how he will come from the sky with his fathers angels. . . he also said that, his listeners generation will not pass away until all what he has said come to pass. . . he told them that they should be weary becaue no one knows the day or the our only his father. . . .

I see that your main thrust is about the generation that Jesus spoke of, and you still have not gotten the gist of His manner of speech. Just ask for the codecs and you will see exactly what Jesus meant by that.  

That is why I say to you to bear context in mind before being critical. Jesus used the word generation to describe those people in the last days that will see the end time signs of His coming. The phrase "this generation" can be rightly seen as "that generation" Its obvious that there would have been signs that would have occurred after Jesus' death and resurrection that would happen in the future.

Jesus said this, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

Then He said this afterwards, "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

So obviously the "this generation" would be the "they" in the previous verse. You cannot isolate a phrase out of a wider context and begin to extrapolate something. Any serious student of scriptures will eventually come to realize that very important point.

Another part of the solution is to also realize that some translations have posed a huge problem in how people come to appreciate the bible. You can't only be a surface reader and think that you have a hold on Christians.

My advice to you is to humble yourself to God and allow Him to guide you.

i am only stating what is inside the bible. . . . .did jesus say that any body that calls some one a fool is in danger of hell fire? did he then turn around and call some people fools? did jesus not tell some of his listeners that he will come back during their life time? what the heck is blasphemy?

I honestly believe you have taken a lot of things out of context without fully coming to grips with the truth. Your debating tactics is similar to spammers. You flood the threads with conclusions based on false premises, and have not done an intelligent research on the very things you're pointing out.

The reason why Jesus alluded to people calling people fools and being in danger of hell fire is based on an OT text that says, "the fool hath said in his heart there is no God" In other words to call a man a fool is tantamount to saying that such a person is an atheist, or one who has rejected God. Because Jesus bears God's authority, and who Himself is God's Son, only He knows who indeed a fool is, and under the circumstances when He made such a pronouncement, He was correct.

Anyone who calls another person a fool is putting himself, or herself in God's position. That was the premise on which He spoke.

Now let me deal with your dribblings on this quote you highlighted,

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. Mat 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

I want you to notice something. Notice what is recorded in chapter 17 following the last verse in chapter 16? Observe,

Matthew 17:1-3 say, "1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him."

Notice Jesus did not say all would have seen Him in verse 28. He said "some who are standing here, " That statement was directed to some of His very disciples, and as the 17th chapter indicated, the some included Peter, James, and John who were witnesses to a miniature glory. In other words Jesus was giving them a foretaste of what His glorious kingdom return would look like. Moses represents those righteous ones who died and will be resurrected, while Elijah represents those righteous ones who will not see death.

Is it any clearer to you now Mazaje?

Are you struggling in your Christian path? Want some sound spiritual guidance? Then tune in to the topic.

It was to redeem us that Jesus lived and suffered and died. He became "a Man of Sorrows," that we might be made partakers of everlasting joy. God permitted His beloved Son, full of grace and truth, to come from a world of indescribable glory, to a world marred and blighted with sin, darkened with the shadow of death and the curse. He permitted Him to leave the bosom of His love, the adoration of the angels, to suffer shame, insult, humiliation, hatred, and death. "The chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:5. Behold Him in the wilderness, in Gethsemane, upon the cross! The spotless Son of God took upon Himself the burden of sin. He who had been one with God, felt in His soul the awful separation that sin makes between God and man. This wrung from His lips the anguished cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Matthew 27:46. It was the burden of sin, the sense of its terrible enormity, of its separation of the soul from God--it was this that broke the heart of the Son of God.

But this great sacrifice was not made in order to create in the Father's heart a love for man, not to make Him willing to save. No, no! "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son." John 3:16. The Father loves us, not because of the great propitiation, but He provided the propitiation because He loves us. Christ was the medium through which He could pour out His infinite love upon a fallen world. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. God suffered with His Son. In the agony of Gethsemane, the death of Calvary, the heart of Infinite Love paid the price of our redemption.

So its no longer the theory of evolution, but plain evolution.

D Grin Grin Grin Grin is this another case of we know what the bible is saying but not what it actually means or what? paul wrote in very clear terms what he feels will happen during his life time. many christian apologist i know of have conceded that fact and concluded that he was wrong in making that prediction. paul's writings are very clear. he thaught that jesus was going to come during his life time. . . .

I am saying that you do not understand Paul's use of language. Its as simple as that. To labour the point about Paul's failed prediction is bordering on madness if you ask me. The context of the letter was not based on a prediction, but rather an assurance that those who were alive would not precede those who died.

I know you probably wont be able to understand this because of you seem to be totally blinded by your belief, but the bigger picture is that the world is a much better place now than it used to be. And it will get better as people think more rationally and give up the supernatural beliefs that divide us.

Really! Is that the case socially? Is that the case financially, economically, and environmentally? And since you seem to like science so much, why not provide the social, economic, and environmental scientific observations to prove that the world is a better place now than before. If there is anything fictitious it is the statement made by you above.

Unless fundamentalists (christian and muslims) manage to drag us back into the dark ages.

Don't use fundamentalism as an excuse not to see the truth. You know very well that the majority of Muslims and Christians are not fundamentalists. The battle between good and evil, truth and error, love and selfishness, is a subject taught in the bible and the Quran.

Have you ever wondered why the least religious countries in the world are the most peaceful?

Really! What determines whether or not any country is least religious? Can you show the fora what facts you have gathered to prove that?

Think about it for a while. And please dont think that i am going to hell because i dont share your supernatural beliefs.

How many times have you harped on that word hell? Are you trying hard to consciously convince yourself not to believe the truth, while subconsciously believing? The bible says ", out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh"

I am not interested in saving myself from being left outside of your fictitious colossal city in space.

Something you're not quite capable of anyway, but rest assured if you open up your mind to Christ He will save you from your self.

I am interested in the psychological process that causes you to keep believing in such a ridiculous story. Your religion is not superior to all the other faiths in the world, and not closer to the truth than a non believer. When we finally realise and understand that we are all equal as human beings (believers and non believers), this world could be the paradise you pray for.

You are not in a position to prove it is a ridiculous story, can you? How can you disprove an event that has not yet occured?

Quoting the bible to prove the validity of your theological beliefs is the same as a muslim quoting the quaran to prove the validity of his/her theological beliefs.

Yet what I have quoted so far is proof that the bible as God's words is more powerful than any false science put together. It is you who continue to blind your eyes to the plain truths of scripture, but if you're not afraid of truth, I will be more than welcome to expose you to more where that came from.

respect.

@ Mazaje

there is no point in trying to make me understand? what do you want me to understand? your own apologetics or what is written in the bible? paul thought that jesus was coming back to meet him alive there is no way you can spin that. . .

I am not sure that Paul taught that Mazaje. For you to understand what Paul is saying you must understand the manner of speech that was exhibited by Paul and other writers. Although Paul used in some cases the present tense in this part of his letter, it didn't necessarily mean that Paul expected to be alive at Christ's second advent. The expression "we which are alive" indicates that should Christ come in their life time and and they happen to be alive, they would be delivered. It is more a statement of hope that Paul used to comfort God's people who continued to suffer under the hands of the Roman persecutions. You have to see the context.


1 Thes. 4:15-18
"15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."


Notice how Paul expresses himself in 2 Timothy 4:6-8. He is about to be beheaded, but listen to the tone of confidence that he displays. He speaks as if he is already being rewarded. In 1 Thessalonians he speaks with a similar confidence to include himself in the "we", but in truth what that means is that Paul could not have merely said "when you are alive", because what if Christ had come in their lifetime?

"6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Here is my take on the matter poster. Like you I believe that the teaching of the secret rapture is a lie. It may have a nice ring to it, but it is a dangerous doctrine that Satan has conjured up in the minds of some Christians to give them a sense of false hope.

Secondly, the so-called prophetic foundation for such a doctrine which according to some is based in the book of Daniel 9 is a wrong interpretation of the chapter anyway, and that is the major weakness of the teaching that can be easily exposed by a simple exposition of Daniel 9, and the NT related passages used to buffer the prophecy.

Thirdly, the few texts that the advocates of the teaching use, have no contextual basis on which to build such a teaching, which have brought on the confusion in the first place.

I will go into more details later.

Your question is a very good question one. And my answer is i don't know. Nobody knows, not yet. But if scientists keep on searching and accumulating all the knowledge we acquire in our quest to find out, we will get closer and closer to the real truth.

The scientists that are honest have already acknowledged that the universe with its orderly design had to have had a Designer. In fact scientists who support the theory of evolution have deviated from what they originally once taught. Once upon a time they taught that the universe was static. The delusion that the universe was static (not expanding nor contracting) lasted for centuries among scientists as well as laypersons. The most brilliant of humans accepted that delusion as true. Einstein, one of the most eminent scientists that ever lived, believed the universe was static. Einstein developed special and general relativity, probably the greatest triumph of scientific understanding ever made. But he so deeply believed in a static universe that when his derived relativity equations indicated the universe was not static, he refused to believe his own work! He distorted his equations by adding a “cosmological constant” to them such that the distorted equations then showed a static universe. When later scientific observations and discoveries proved that the universe is expanding, Einstein called the cosmological constant his “greatest blunder.”

I suppose you feel that you already know the answer because it is written in the bible, but have you ever considered the possibility that you could be wrong, and that the bible is not the true word of god?

If there was no truth to the bible as the word of God then how is it that long before scientists knew that the earth was round, God's word said it was? How would any writer through inspiration even know unless it was revealed to him or her. Listen to God's word,

1. "He . . . hangeth the earth upon nothing." Job 26:7. This scientific fact is from Job, the Bible's oldest book.

2. "He . . . sitteth upon the circle of the earth." Isaiah 40:22. The Bible said the earth is round centuries before man found out.

3. "To make the weight for the winds." Job 28:25. Long before scientists knew, God said air has weight.

4. "By Him [Jesus] all things consist." Colossians 1:17. The word "consist" here literally means "hold together" or "cohere." Many Bible translations put it "hold together." This is the answer to the nuclear physicists' worrisome question about the atom. The real mystery of the atom does not involve its benumbing mega-power, but rather, "Why doesn't the atom fly apart?" Scientific knowledge says it should, but it doesn't. Some scientists are wondering what puzzling power, completely unknown to them, is holding it together. The Bible says that mysterious power is the Creator, God Himself.

Remember what they (the christian church) did to Galileo when his telescopes and calculations disproved the myth that the sun orbits the earth, and the creation story you believe in was written thousands of years before that by people who know nothing of the true nature of the universe we inhabit.

Unfortunately what you call the christian church back then was the Roman catholic church that kept the then known world in darkness. The true Christians who understood the bible for what it stood for, realized that true science harbours no qualm with religion. In fact archeology as a science has proven the biblical characters mentioned in the bible to have really existed.

Here is a link to a very beautifully illustrated book i just finished reading called "In the beginning - Creation myths from around the world"
http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Creation-Stories-Around-World/dp/0152387420/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

Sorry I do not respond to people's opinion of the bible. I know in whom I believe.

As you can see, since humans first asked themselves that question, there have been thousands of creation stories from all over the world. Since they obviously can't all be right, the most logical conclusion for me is that they are all wrong.

Not necessarily. If Satan and evil are real as the bible teaches, and as the world is now realizing, then God and good are also real, despite Satan's attempt to distort the truth. The world as we are seeing it is on a crash course. Its in turmoil. Why is it in turmoil? Man is looking to man for answers that lie only with God. The bible says righteousness exalts a nation. What if everyone decided that they would love one another and stop being selfish, the virtues of which are all taught by God through His word, then what a world this would be. Everything that the bible has said, and continues to say about the human race is being fulfilled right before your very eyes, yet you are in denial.

When will you surrender to God and give His word a chance in your life? Remember that only the prince of peace can give you peace. His name is Jesus.

I suppose for you, they are all wrong except your Seventh Day Adventist interpretation of the stories in the bible.

Do not forget that they are Christian scientists who have acknowledged God as Creator of the universe.

I respect whatever makes you happy, but i have chosen to see the bigger picture and accept reality, and what i see now is much more magnificent that any of the ignorant small minded writers of the bible could have ever imagined or comprehended.

What bigger picture are you talking about? Have you resigned yourself to the conditions of this life as your source of happiness? Are you really happy with what you see around you? Can you name one scientists who advocates the theory of evolution with a solution for the social chaos that presently plagues this world?

I used to be a christian, went to church most sundays,

But aren't you still a Christian even if you're not a practicing one? Would you mind telling us what influenced you to depart the fellowship?

Does that mean that everyone who goes to church on sunday is not righteous and would not be allowed into Gods shiny new city on earth?

Yes, and no. Those who were not exposed to the sabbath truth and kept Sunday unknowingly, would be judged differently. God only judges us based on the light we have been given.

I read your link about the colossal city being built out in space, which will be lowered down to earth for people to live in. Will everyone who thinks the whole concept is quite ridiculous be left out too?
That probably means that 99% of the population will be going to hell.

People who don't believe that God is its maker obviously don't know the bible. Besides, who else apart from God is capable of making such a huge and beautiful city. Did you know that Abraham looked for this city? Listen, "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."(Heb. 11:10)

"27. Millennium and the End of Sin:The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)"

Thats not nice, In fact that sounds like mass murder like the flood story but this time even worse. Death by being burnt alive.

Its never a question of being nice, but being just in the rewards that every man will receive. Remember, God has given man ample time to make things right through His redemptive acts by the death of His Son on the cross. There will be no excuse after the just and righteous judgment of God. Those who choose to follow Satan must suffer the consequences of a life of disobedience.

Let me explain something else to you. The wicked before they are cast into the lake of fire would have come to the conclusion that God's judgment is just and fair, albeit a bit too late for such an acknowledgment, and that they are deserving of such a judgment, ad ultimate destruction. When God's judgment is seen for what it truly is, there can be being who will challenge it. You see God's judgment is tempered with love and mercy. In the White Throne judgment that occurs after the 1000 years, God will reveal to every wicked person their life history, and all the opportunities they had. In panoramic view they will see every effort that God made to influence them for good. After this judgment every being will bow prostrate confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord. Even Satan and his angels will confess, but their confession at this point would be like that of Judas, whose confession was not from Godly sorrow.

This is also implying that life on Earth is the only life in the whole universe. Since Earth is of the same elements as the rest of the universe it is highly likely that other planets (and there are billions out there) could have conditions favourable to the existence of life on them also.

No that is not the case. There are other worlds with beings made by God the Creator, but they are not the objective of focus because their world didn't harbour Lucifer when he was cast from heaven. The universe is way too huge to be occupied by our world alone. Although our world sinned and was the only dark planet, God established a plan to redeem Adam's fallen race. Our privilege will far exceed theirs in that we will live with God personally. We will be the only ones to see Him face to face, and live with Him eternally.

"28. New Earth:
On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.)"

God is love? I have come to realise that my idea of love is very different from the 'love' that the God of the bible shows his children. I have given up faith in this fictitious supernatural character from the bronze age called 'God' in exchange for the truth.

So where else can you find love if not from the Creator of heaven and earth? Persons have become disenchanted with God because Satan has succeeded in painting God as unjust and despotic, but only those who endure to the end as Jesus recommended will understand what is really at stake. Anyone who has come into contact with Jesus Christ can never talk of God as being fictitious. Both animate and inanimate objects owe their existence to God the Creator. Do you think that so many Christians in past times would have sacrificed their lives if they never had that experience with Christ? Do you think we are making this up? Sad if you think so,

I hope that one day the truth will set you free too and your eyes will be opened to the true glory and immense scale and majesty of the universe that we live in. Knowledge and understanding is much more important to me now.

And who do you think caused the existence of such a vast universe?

Respects