- The Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force -

Hence i am sorry to disappoint you mazaje but saying the truth is not always a popular thing.

I have always said that True Christians are really few and far between. Infact I believe that True Christians are the least number of people on the planet in comparison to the catholics, muslims, atheists and all.


Standing for the truth has nothing to do with compromise or peace, Paul was killed for it. Peter was killed for it. Messiah willingly laid down His life to save us and give us the truth.

So true indeed. We are soldiers in a warfare that is greater than all wars put together. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, "

Part of the last day message is to warn the inhabitants of the world not to receive the mark of the beast, or Anti-Christ.

[img]http://www.satanspace.com/pictures/the-meeting[/img]

This is a perfect reflection of who is in charge of this gathering.

@bobbyaff

Please do you mind telling me what happened to the churches the Apostles founded,we know from the bible that the apostles founded churches in Rome,Corinth,ephesus,jerusalem,galatia,macedonia,alexandria,philipi,antioch and a host of other cities ,how come all this churches disapeared.

We know that then churches founded by martin luther,jean calvin,henryviii ,benny hinn,oyedepo e.t.c are still in existence .How come these apostolic churches diaspeared?


Mind you fool,most of the prophecies in the boks of Daniel that u are so obseessed with have been fulfilled.

Your gross stupidity makes me want to cry,stop making a fool of your self

You're on your own until you learn respect.

[img]http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/pinecone.jpg[/img]

In Babylon the pine cone described fertility and also the regeneration power of Tammuz. In the Vatican is the world's largest pine cone sculpture. This sculpture is located in the court of pine. The Roman Catholic Church very openly follows pagan idol worshiping by using pagan symbols.



Here is Pope John Paul II holding what is called a Monstrance or Ostensorium. The Roman Catholic Church even admits the Monstrance to be a sunburst.



Notice the letters SFS in the small sunburst blaze on the large close up of a Monstrance above? Each of the letters is a universal symbol for the number 6 in the pagan mysteries.

Image kissing which is a form of adoration.

[img]http://shadows15.files./2007/11/prostrate-to-pope.jpg[/img]

What do you all think of this photo? Priests worshiping their pope and god. One pope has made it clear that all popes stand in the place of God Almighty.

"In the place of" is what constitutes the true meaning of the phrase "Anti-Christ. This is exactly what Daniel and John predicted would constitute the "little horn power", and the beast respectively, in Daniel 7:25, and Revelation 13.

Posted by: topup

I have always thought if it is that simple, then why is it so successful and so many people across the continents are Catholics, if it is one of the biggest contradictions ever.

I would like if people responded with reasons and justifications and not just digs at the other person's religion. Because when you take them out the picture, will you be able to stand on your own two feet??

That is easy to explain.

1.  Catholics baptize babies and hence beef up their church memberships. On top pf that one doesn't have to be a serious bible-believing born again Christian to be a member of the Catholic church. You can smoke and drink and still consider yourself alright in Christ.

2. Catholicism as well is considered state religion because of the established historical connections which existed before in those countries.

3. Bear in mind too most Catholics feel obligated to will their properties to the RCC, thus making it the richest organization on the face of the earth. Revelation describes it thus:

Revelation 17:4 "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication, "

Fitting symbols for a rich and currupt organization.

@bobyaff and co

The commandment actually prohibited the making of images of all things in heaven and earth ,in the sea and under the earth.

The definition of images is not restricted to carved images,images also includes pictures ,drawings,paintings e.t.c
I know almmost every protestant including boobyaff have pictures in their house even boobyaff attached his ugly picture to his profile.

Also we so many instances of carved images being used in the bible,the temple king solomon built has carved images of the winged creatures all over it's wall,solomon also decorated his throne with carved images of Lions.

Moses who gave the commandments actualy used carved images of bronze serpent and winged creatures.

Most Nigerians especially the yorubas bow down to their elder (dobale),who are images of God .

So stop the talk about carving of images or bowing down to them,If you have any proof of idol worship in the RCC do present it.

Bobbyaff ,like I said to you before ,the RCC will outlive you ,your diabolical machinations are already failing.the RCC continues to grow in mounts and bounts.

Keep trying!

Spoke to a Catholic member as to why they baptized babies, and he couldn't even supply a biblical basis for such. I felt sorry for him.

I further asked him to explain how has the RCC come to accept sprinkling as baptism. He said he'd have to get back to me on that matter.

Are there any able Catholic willing to explain the above?

Not surprised if some of them don't actually worship him.

Isn't it strange how Paul wrote and accomplished more than Peter did in terms of ministry. Isn't it strange how Paul wrote to the Romans, and Peter didn''t. So if Peter who didn't claim lordship as the popes do today, did very little to prove the catholic's claim that He was the first Pope, then if anything I assume Paul the rightful Pope.

I do declare Paul of tarsus Pope,

Posted by: davidylan

Can anyone show me where Peter used any graven image in worship?

Excellent question considering he was supposedly the first pope.

Just to add my 2 cents, the sabbath day like the tithe law is not relevant today because we are covered by the Grace of God.

Open a thread for sabbath issues, and then you can prove from scriptures your case. Otherwise stay from the thread if you cannot show respect.

@ maedan

there really is no proof that Catholics actually "worship" graven images in the actual sense of the world. Kneeling or bowing or prostrating in front of a carved statue does not make one an idol worshipper.

If its not idol worship what is it then? It amazes me how people can outrightly deny God and His words. God specifically commanded not to bow down to graven images, and here you are defending such an act of disobedience.

I agree Zoe. It should be our duty to study more.

As time progresses more stuff of the so-called Mary will be seen. More apparitions (demons appearing as Mary) of her will be seen all over the globe. Satan will make sure of that,

@ Lady

And no where did I state that the serpent was being worshipped.
I said it was being USED in Jewish worship, just as the ark of the covenant was being USED in Jewish worship, and just as the other images in the temple were being USED in Jewish worship.

How were they used in worship? Were they made for worship, or were they made to represent the heavenly sanctuary, and what is carried out in the heavenly sanctuary above? Were you aware that Moses was instructed to build the tabernacle according to what was shown to him on the mount? Moses was shown a copy of the heavenly tabernacle above, and the object of the earthly sanctuary was to provide for the children of Israel a proper understanding of the plan of salvation. You're mistaken about the things of the ark of the covenant being used in worship. If that were the case, then why weren't they displayed outside for the people to see them? Why were they compartmentalized?

Stop confusing USED in worship and BEING worshipped. They are two different things.

How do you explain the photos above? Why is it necessary for persons to be bowing down before a so-called statue of Mary?

As stated above the ark of the covenant which includes the images of the cherubim was used in worship.

In what way you are yet to prove. If worship was an everyday experience, and the ark of the covenant came into play only once per year, in what way did the children of Israel utilize it for the purpose of worship?

Infact it was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Imagine a graven image is being overshadowed by God, a graven image he commanded to never be made and then according to your reasoning contradicts himself by commanding graven images to be made.

Your argument is so foolish. You're confusing the real issue here Lady. You're confusing God's motives for having commanded Moses to build the furniture of the ark of the covenant, and the purpose behind such objects, with man's motives for building an image for worship purposes. Besides, the furniture of the ark were hidden away from the worshipers view. During worship God was on the people's mind, not the furniture. No one was seeing bowing down to them anyway, so what is the big deal of your argument?

The Ark was used in the Holy of Holies and couldn't be touched by unordained men. Infact a man was killed for touching it.

Exactly! So how would that have enhanced anyone's worship, if they were afraid? Based on your argument no one would feel comfortable being around it. Besides, the only reason it was even seen was because it was being transported to another location when the tent was being removed.

Why would God treat a graven image in a holy manner? WHy would God command that a graven image be treated with holiness? It makes no sense.

It makes no sense to you because you have misconstrued the significance of the objects of furniture in the ark of the covenant. They were designed to illustrate the plan of salvation in a miniature sense. They were never intended to be the objects of focus.

A graven image used in worship helps one put the focus on God. We are humans with different senses and in worship we use these senses. We use our hearing and our sight and our sense of smell and touch and all that. God gave us our senses I don't see why there'd be a problem with using it to worhsip Him.

Yet God still commanded otherwise, despite our senses.

Also during early christianity drawings, images, smells and such were the only way to express the Gospel to people. Most of the christians were illiterates and poor. The education isn't what it is today. So they relied on images to portray the message to converts. Even today it is a very effective way of evangelizing.

How would you know the motives for the introduction of icons? Why not simply teach people to read the bible!

David the confusion comes in when people do not take into account the entire Bible to understand the meaning of a passage.

You need the entire bible to understand a passage?

of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn't yet reveal himself visibly "in the form of any figure."

Yet we are told whose image we were made in. Wasn't it Moses who wrote the creation story? God's people already knew that, so your argument doesn't make sense.

hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

You're making me laugh.

later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

A dove? When was that?

God's commandment "thou shall not make a graven image" is entirely connected to the worship of false gods.

Go re-read the 2nd commandment? It said nothing of the sort. Simply put God didn't want to be worshiped using images of anything above, beneath, or on the earth. God knew what was likely to take place, and njpped it in the bud. God also knew that it was the manner of the surrounding heathens to utilize images, and that His own people had grown accustomed to the ways of the Egyptians.

God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Give us an example.

If he prohibited the use of images during worship he wouldn't have commanded certain images to be used in worship perfect example is the ark of the covenant.

Keep harping on a baseless argument. See my response already supplied above.

You cannot deny that the ark was used in worship, you also canot deny that it is an image itself and that it included the image of things above in heaven, the cherubim.

I already did above. Are angels worshiped? If not explain why God allowed Moses to carve them, and hide them in the sanctuary?

Why would God prohibit the making of images and then command them to be made? It makes no sense.
Because God is perfect we can only conclude that it is our interpretation of this particular verse that is wrong.

Speak for yourself.

So what was the purpose of God allowing the use of the ark in worship because the image disposed the minds of the Israelites to the supernatural and draws them closer to God.

So why were they hidden?

If Catholics are guilty of worshipping any image it is the image of God, Jesus Christ. He is the image of the invisible God. Col 1:15

Hence you do not need statues of Jesus, or Mary.

God himself became an image. So images aren't wrong, it is the worship of images that are wrong. And no matter how much hatred you have for Catholics and how many times you want to twist the truth David, it remains that Catholics use images in worship and this is not wrong as evidenced in the Bible and that Catholics do not worship those images themselves.

Only in your mind are these things evidenced.

@ Lady

And I guess you're the one that knows the heart of man because you're the one that's telling people that Catholics worship Mary. Do you know my heart and the heart of every Catholic?

I don't even need to know your heart for that do I? If you hail a dead woman that is Idolatry enough,

How do you know God's heart? How do you know he doesn't want representatives? How do you know he wants a direct approach?

Because He commanded Moses to teach His people not to make any images nor to bow down to them. How would you know of such a command when your organization has removed it from the original 10.

Did he use the Priests in the OT and didn't he use prophets to speak to the people?
Why didn't he speak to each individual?

You don't know why? Listen Lady, and listen well. God desires us to come to him directly, meaning when we are worshiping God its a one and one experience, regardless if He ordains priests and prophets. Priests and prophets all serve a purpose as it was then. Today Jesus bids us pray to His Father directly. Neither Jesus nor His disciples taught that we need saints or Mary to intercede for us. As regards the heavenly atonement, Jesus our Hign Priest receives our sins after confession, as the only Mediator between His Father and us.

I specifically remember the Israelites rising up against Moses and they said they too wanted to see and hear God, and when they heard the thunder claps they became afraid and begged Moses to speak to God on their behalf. Why would God be inconsistent in what he wants?

He wasn't being inconsistent lady. You should know that under such circumstances no sinner can literally see God and live. Worshiping and praying to God directly is quite a different matter. One doesn't have to see God literally in order to pray to Him or worship Him.

If the 2nd commandment forbids image carving why did God command the carving of images in the ark of the covenant and the bronze serpent and the specific things he requested to be used to build his temple from Solomon.

Because He knew they were never meant to be used as intermediaries. Besides, no one except the high priest had access to the arc of the covenant.

@ Lady

So why would God command that a graven image be made that will be used in worship?

So who said that looking at the pole with a brazen serpent constituted worship? How do you have the heart to even remotely compare that with bowing down to a statue of Mary beats me.

You redundant question as to why GOD does what He does for His own purpose reveals your lack of understanding of spiritual matters. If God says don't, then for His sake obey. Don't use God's actions that you obviously fail to understand to continue in sin.

A case in point would be when God commands us not to murder, and He then turns around and wipes out a complete nation including children on the breast, must we then murder and use God's actions as a reason to murder?

The difference lies in God being God. His actions need no justifying. He owes us no explanations. Hence if He commands Moses to erect a serpent on a pole for what ever reason how dare you use that action to justify breaking His direct command?

This is exactly what makes you Catholic. Both Clergy and laity have come to think they are bigger than God.

But that doesn't make any sense when we look at your reasoning. God is contradicting himself here according to your interpretation of the commandment.
Your interpretation says any making of a graven image and use of it in worship means that the image is being worshipped.
So why would God command that a graven image be made that will be used in worship?

Its simple. God's motives are different than men's. As was explained God had His reasons which incidentally had nothing to do with anyone bowing down in worship. All that was required was for them to look in faith at the serpent on the pole. It was a one-time act.

Today what we see are images of Jesus and Mary all over the RCC. Today what we see are people kissing and bowing down to these lifeless forms rather than take their cases to Jesus, the greatest physician.

So it all comes down to context and intention of the person.

And since you don't know the heart of man as God does, its best to simply obey rather than conjure up excuses for plain idolatry. In other words God doesn't want a representation when it comes to worship. He prefers a direct approach. He desires that all of His children come to Him directly. Jesus didn't teach us to pray through saints. He simply said to pray to our father which is in heaven. So we don't need Mary, or dead saints through whom to pray since they are dead and gone.

The RCC removed the 2nd commandment which forbids image carving and worship. It plainly says "thou shall not make unto thee any graven images", of anything, be it Mary, Jesus, or anyone else. What is it about that plain commandment you are failing to comprehend?

Now I am fully convince that u are a heretic,any one that brings JESUS as low as an angel is not a christian.

The bible clearly tells us hat christ is far above the angels

Heb1;4-6
The son was made greater than the angels just as the name God gave him is greater than theirs.

For God never said to any of his angels"You are my son,today I have become your father" nor did God say about any angel "I will be his father and he will be my son"

But when God was about to send his son into the worldhe said  "all God's angels must worship him.

Heb1;8  about the son however God said "your kingdom o GOD will last forever.

This Bible passages clearly states that JESUS is God and far above he angels.

Are you stupid or are you stupid? Choose, 

Didn't you read what I said above? I don't think so! You need a remedial class in English comprehension.

@BobbyAf
Why did God tell moses to build a pole with a brazen serpent on it?

Jesus said "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so must the Son of man be lifted up so that whoever believes on him shall have eternal life"

They are several reasons why God told Moses to place a brazen serpent on a pole for all to see.

1. It was a reminder to them. Upon seeing the serpent they would remember what led to some of them dying from excruciating pain in the wilderness, (forgive my finding it amusing)

2. Its medically strange that the very venom of snakes that kill, is the very venom that saves life. Is it any wonder why God said life is found in the blood. The serpent on the pole represents both death and salvation, hence it symbolizes Jesus on the cross. The bible says "He became sin for us, " On the cross Jesus bore the sin of the entire world from all dispensations both from the past until the very last person to be born.

by looking in faith they would be healed. it wasn't the look so much on the serpent that healed them but their faith. It is only as we look at Calvary can we really and truly experience salvation.

@ jookco

Hello Bobbyaf


What you just raised here is a very important issue, but the man can not see what you are saying here, this is a very very clear massage.

Very important indeed because people need to know that the foundation of Roman Catholicism is paganism. When Constantine a Roman Emperor merged paganism with Christianity in the 4th century, it paved the way for the development of an apostate religio-political system, now known as Roman Catholicism, posing as a voice on moral issues.

Ladies and gentlemen of this fora listen to me carefully. The freedom that you seemingly enjoy now will be something of the past very soon. Rome as we speak is subtly gaining power and control with key nations, including the US. Her objective is to gain supreme control in matters of religion and state matters, and when she does hell will break loose.

Revelation 13:7 predicts, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

15 And he(the USA) had power to give life unto the image of the beast, (Revived Roman Catholicism) that the image of the beast should both speak (cause to legislate) and cause (enforce legislation) that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The lamb-like beast in verse 11 represents the new nation of the USA that was in the process of forming its own identity just prior to the French Revolution in which Roman Catholicism received its deadly wound in 1798. It will be this same America that will create an image to the first beast that arose from the sea. Why is it called the image of the beast? Because the same principle of operation that existed in Europe will once again thrive in the US, in which the RCC will seek a union of church and state. The RCC has no real power until she gets the state to back her ideals and dogmas. Only then can she persecute God's people. Se wants to get rid of all those who oppose her, and the only way to do that is to get the state to pass religious laws that favour her.

My friends if you are prepared for a serious study on time-line prophecy feel free to request one. I will be more than happy to send you a video link.

@ Lady

@ Chukwudi

Why are you entertaining Bobbyaf?
Don't you know foolishness when u see one?
According to Bobby, God himself promotes idolatry when he commanded the Israelites to make graven images to be used in worship.

Age-old strategy by Catholics when they are confronted with truth is to question the very God of the bible,

Besides, your ignorance of things of this nature doesn't surprise me anyway. How can you compare God's motives for an action that He commanded, with man's motives for an action that suits such a motive?

The symbolism in Moses' brazen serpent must not be mistaken for idolatry as compared to a deliberate attempt on the part of humans to disobey a direct command of God. Moses in no way made anyone kiss that serpent on a pole, or encouraged anyone to bow down to it.

Like Adam that accused God of providing a woman that lured him into sin, you are now accusing God of encouraging idolatry, because you fail to understand the import of why God told Moses to build a pole with a brazen serpent on it.

Stop looking for excuse, and stop blaming God.

Christ is indeed Michael the arch angel, but He is not an angel in the truest sense. Archangel is merely a term used to show that Jesus is the chief messenger in heaven. He is the chief mouth piece of His Father. As was pointed out by the author of this thread arche is a Greek word for chief, or ruler, while angel is from the Greek word angellos meaning messenger.

Its just a play on words. I understand the concern that Christians have when they hear it said that Jesus is an angel. Rest assured He is not an angel.

Do you all remember when Moses spoke to God in the burning bush? Don't you find it strange that Moses referred to God as the "angel of the Lord"

That was Jesus representing His Father. He came as a messenger. In the burning bush He was called "the angel of the Lord".

@ tudor

What kind of a god condemns me to damnation coz i didn't sleep all through my saturday

That is a catholic concept. God holds those responsible based on what they know, and how they apply such knowledge. If you're serious about God in due season you will see the light.

@ chukwudi44

@bobbyaff
It is better to discuss the sabath since a greater percentage of christians are involved ,do you realise that the seventh day adventist represent less than 4 percent of the christian poipulation,which means that the remaining 96 percent that don't observe the sabath are doomed.

You said it not me!

I would prefer we discuss the sabath since a greater number of christians are involved.

This thread is not about the sabbath.

In your hypocritical hatred for the RCC you always pick on them because they are the largest branch of christendom.

"broad is the road that leads to destruction and many there be that find it, and narrow is the road that leads to eternal life and few there be that find it" Jesus said.

Besides, if I hated Catholics I wouldn't be here warning them to leave this deceitful and pagan infested organization, would I? There are large amounts of innocent Catholics that have been deceived, and need to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord.

But I have bad news for you, The RCC will outlive you, The RCC will outlive your children,grand children and great great, grand children(that is if you will have any)

Well, I have good news for you. Jesus is coming again and when He comes I pray that you will be ready. I pray that God will remove the scales from your eyes that you will find freedom in Christ, instead of looking to a man-made religion.

@ jagunlabi

This is a funny accusation because all christians(and i mean every single one of them) are idol worshippers.To now stand up and accuse the major subsect within christiandom of idol worshipping by another christian is a big joke.
BOBBYAF,YOU AND THE REST OF THE CHRISTIANDOM ARE ALL IDOL WORSHIPPERS!Get used to that fact and learn to live with it.And,bobbyaf, stop judging others on what you yourself is guilty of.Judge not lest you be judged.

Prove your argument. Right this minute what you're saying doesn't even make any sense. You're wasting my time. I need serious posters in this thread.

I have in the past discussed sabbath issues before, but if you have something to say start a thread on the topic.

I am not in a position to judge their experience, but I am not sure that it is safe to accept that that was an angel of God. Angels do not appear with any degree of uncertainty, whether in bible times, or now. And normally when they do people are afraid because of their countenance.

I am not glued to this forum am I?