₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
LoLz. Dude there is a big dichotomy between the 2 whether it is acknowledged or not. Science deals with facts, religion deals with spirituality. Spirituality doesn't need facts and facts don't need spirituality.

No wonder

LordReed:
Then religion should stay in its lane and not cross over to making bogus historical or scientific claims. Fact is fact, a religion should not have the leeway to attempt to manufacture bullshit and call it fact.

Not at all.

From the distance of pre-information (aka "ignorance" ), science and religion are apart. Scientist today who have known and chew their onions find it hard to create a dichotomy between science and religion in all it's tributaries as history, belief and even dogma.

They both wine and dine at a particular joint in town.

KnownUnknown:
You have emotions! Riveting.

This cracked me up. Who said I don't?

I mentioned you to provide information not check whether I have emotions or not.

It seems it's an addiction the heavy reliance on digging up " scandals" from the web...is that the new flex?

LordReed:
Let's examine a bit about the Book of Mormon.

1. It claims to have been ori written in reformed Egyptian, a language that has no evidence of ever existing.

2. It claims to be from ancient American natives yet extensively quotes the King James version of the Bible. Ancient native Americans had the King James Bible?

3. The book claims there were horses and elephants in America at the time it was written but these animals were in fact introduced to America by Europeans. Horses were brought to America in the 16th century, elephants much later.

4. The book claims native Americans descended from Abraham but no genetic study has ever found genetic link between native Americans and people from the Middle East.

5. No archaeological findings has ever supported anything the book claims about ancient native Americans.

There is a whole lot more but most of it is of academic interest because you need to really invest in understanding some things before you know why the Book of Mormon cannot be what it says it is. These ones I have written here I think are sufficient to put pause to any claim that it is some kind of historical or accurate record of real world events.

You will recall the famous paragraph "C" in my earlier response and marry that to the substance of the gist of this thread where I said I was not endorsing nor debunking their book.

Although its entertainment watching your discomfort that despite the alleged fallacy in it, I had a supernatural encounter. I further liked how you came home earlier that everything being supernatural and natural at the same time.

LordReed:
A: If everything is supernatural then everything is natural since nothing is special.

B: You see? This is the whole point and you did a great job in catching it (although inadvertently and I will say why later)!

C: Everything is supernatural and natural at the same time, it depends on who is viewing and their well being--that's their and state of (respective) biokind (animal or plant), and the space-time index (earth, another planet, another dimension, etc). This is why it's entirely subjective as far as this domain (of physics) is concerned.

Back to B above, initially you were mocking how someone could experience the 'supernatural' reading Joseph Smith who to you was scam. Today you officially became the genius who decoded that yes, seemingly stupid things could be supernatural after all...

This reminds us of the biblical scripture: "God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise"

You are the one who needs to to go further since I already agreed that all experience is either partially or wholly subjective. And also quote which textbook and obsolete science you think my viewpoint comes from.

Please refer to C above in this would you? Show me you get that science or not. Cheers!

LordReed:
Great so you do accept that profound experiences can be had without anything that claims to be supernatural.

Profound experiences can be had with anything at all because everything is supernatural. Everything from the Spaghetti Monster, the scrotum of Zeus up to the table spoon of Jehova!

And this is so when you marry the best of today's science with religion out of necessity because both are not really separate.

I agree all experiences are subjective (partly or wholly) however certain experiences are produced/reproduced by objective stimuli, such experiences are not purely subjective. Your particular experience with the book will not be reproduced just by reading the book or else everyone who has read it would be claiming the same thing you did.

When you're working with the viewpoint of text book and obsolete science, you indeed would accept the possibility of objectivity. Go further...

KnownUnknown:
Which experiences of the conman Joseph smith did you relive? The real experiences or the tall tales. Lol

Don't let the knowledge of semantics let you down:

Basically the word "relive" means to put one's self into a memory or experience to re-experience it. It doesn't matter if it was a real experience or not.

To dumb this down, this is why people watch movies and cry. Movies are essentially tall tales most of the time.

LordReed:
I accept those sources because they are corroborated with real documents. All the things I said about Joseph Smith have documents backing them.

There is no person who hasn't done something wrong so I don't expect any saints anywhere however some people's own is too egregious to ignore like Joseph Smith.

The book is a product of a fraud so whatever you experienced is entirely subjective to you and has nothing to do with such a book.

I have watched fantastic movies and had that flow I described. A movie is essentially a work of fiction by the way...

I need to mention this so you don't feel my experience with the book where I mentioned the Life Force flowed within me was a moment of 'too good' for your stance.

The book is a product of a fraud so whatever you experienced is entirely subjective to you and has nothing to do with such a book.

What experience isn't subjective psychologically speaking?

LordReed:
Oh sure, I don't make my statement lightly.

First off, he claimed he had the power to find hidden treasure but after many attempts never found any.

Next, he claimed he found the golden plates but never showed those plates in the open. Then after claiming to have translated the plates, suddenly the plates are no where to be found.

He also created a joint stock company, called the Kirtland Safety Society, to act as a quasi-bank; the company issued banknotes partly capitalized by real estate. He encouraged his followers to buy the notes, in which he invested heavily himself. The bank failed within a month. A warrant was issued for his arrest for banking fraud but he ran away.

After declaring that only he had the power to make church doctrine, he began to secretly marry multiple wives, a doctrine called plural marriage but he only spoke of it to close associates so that kasala will not bust. When one of his main men started using the doctrine, he had that one excommunicated.

He latter created a secret council that was to declare him Prophet, Priest, and King and create an independent state within US territory.

It was when he started secretly trying to seduce his close followers wives that the final kasala that would lead to his death busted.

There are other details to this story that taken all together will show he was indeed a massive fraud but these I think are the most cogent to any honest person reviewing his story and should point to that conclusion.

I will make a separate post for the Book of Mormon.

Catch this drift swiftly before it escapes:

1: All your assertions above are derived from certain sources.

Drift: Why do you trust and believe them hook, line and sinker?

2: Experientially, you rely heavily on focusing on the negative sides of people gleaned from sources you would have dug negative story about if the subject was your target...

Drift: This is giving us a clear image of an acute Contraria host...

3: If your read up, I am not for or against the Mormons (God bless their Souls), I merely reflected on the experience with their book.

You seem to think it was an Ad for Mormon and is out to characteristically de-market. I don't get ...

LordReed:
Joseph Smith was a massive fraud so is the so called Book of Mormon or whatever those golden plates he purportedly found is called. His tale matches nothing in reality.

The Bible is NOT a history book, it's an anthology of Jewish myths and legends possibly interspersed with Greek ideas.

When I wish to deal with people, I get turned off with those who make blanket allegations and whatnots without proof.


What are your sources and proof? Let's dissect and have a close objective look.

LordIsaac:
Oh malaria!

Knownunknown , itiswell22 , lordreed LordIsaac

Can I know your alternative the principle, ideology, practice, etc you object to individually?


Let's start from there.

Next is: The book in question and my thread deals with History and not necessarily religion if you deduct.

The Christian bible too is history majorly, where people fling their hopes, expectations and perceptions on and clinging into that to form beliefs and religions.

Question: Which part of the historical side of the two books fo you dispute please? Thanks.

Let's not make an error of judgement here though, indeed like the Bible said, specials beings from heaven came to earth, so much that their kids and relatives fancied human babes for themselves (Gen. 6:1-4).

Note in the scripture above, their is a clear distinction of race and bio-indentity. Their word for it however was not "ET" or "Alien".

They used the word "Sons of God".

The thing is: man at the time calls anything in skirts "God" and worshipped or revered it.

Think "the bushman" in the movie "The Gods must be Crazy", then think how it is indeed apt the paragraph above.

Slap you observation to the plethora of "Gods" available in the past and even today.

You will see that indeed the ancient humans had a thing for any sentient thing that glitters.

You have read of the "flying horse" in the Book of revelations, especially also the "Chariots of fire" of Elijah which took him to heaven.

Those are terms used by those who have not heard of aircrafts before.

Our word for it today is "UFO". Those ahead of us will speak of the folly of calling them "UFO"

Moses, Elijah and the prophets who were mostly servants and emissaries of these beings who from the skies came equally related their interactions with these "Gods" and "Angels".

Gradually the stories got digested, and became vintage--vintage truth. So much that you can't think those beings not being God or angels.

You have no other book telling you otherwise. Even if you do, the possibility becomes a heresy or sacrilege to think of, or the crystallized information from your accepted source fights back.

This is how religion, culture and belief operates and feels for the host.

Shocker 1

The people who the whole Bible revolves around ("God of Israel, The Lord, Lord God, My Lord, Angel of the Lord" etc), where the kit and kins of who Joseph Smith interacted with.

His interaction with this beings are what he dictated as the Mormonian Bible.

But wait, isn't this exactly how the Bible came about?

I outlived the castigation and happen to be exploring my current spiritual path Eckankar.

In hind sight, I may have a shocker for a Christians who persecute other paths, teachings and religions alien to the 66-booker supposedly containing all truths that they call the Bible (A Holy Book in itself).

When I read the book though, I didn't notice any dizziness.

This is because the book came tome by design and not chance.

The book of Mormon by the very right Christians call their book "Holy" is equally a very Holy Book!!!

Mind you I never explored Mormonism by any length beyond that book.

More details...

During the event, the eldest sister of the kids who picked the book came by and found out about the "Demonic book" book matter going.

It was then she mentioned she saw the book earlier. That when she opened to read it, she felt dizzy and closed and threw it away.

She however didn't tell them her brothers brought it. So the allegation that it belonged to me all the while remained.

They ensured they invited more people to come make life for the poor teenager horrible

You know that skit Lasisi makes? The "Mama Itohan" that beans cooker who will exaggerate to the 700th degree a minor offence by her child?

That was how they embarrassed, persecuted and castigated me.

Quickly they generated a buzz that I had joined a secret cult in a gathering of family members.

Note this is when the internet is non-existent for 99% of Nigerians talk more of them hearing of the name "Mormon" and 'googling' them up.

Asides from that, hear the name na, e say na "Mormon".

It already sounds like the name of a demon in the Nigerian context...and one is unfortunate enough to be in this with Christians--people who from their constant attention in binding and casting the devil fail to show their trust in God.

Trouble began when the patriarch of the house discovered the book in my stuff.

Looking back, I marvel at the "special" creatures of God called "Christians"

This is not to mean I knew it was the Life force at the time.

"Life Force"- What the church calls "Holy Spirit").

I just usually let the phenomenon take its course...

I downed the book in no time, and went on with life.

Being a very imaginative person, I would read and relive the experiences of Joseph Smith of the Mormons.

I will in moments feel a gush of the Life force from the top of my head as it coarse through my body like a gentle electricity.

I am used to this phenomenon however, so I didn't freak out.

I, as a Christian teenager was a good church boy who reads the Bible.

So I picked up the book and began enjoying the read. At first I was caught unawares as to the content.

Here we have a book about the lord Jesus Christ written like they think it's a Bible but then, it's not.

I grew up as a reader, I would pick old news papers and left over akara wrappers and read everything in it.

We used to hold reading competition in class for the fastest reader back in primary 4, no adult or a fellow fast reader could beat me.


Added to this, I know book Wella. Na first I dey carry

It was a certain day and the children of our neighbor played at the "bola" (community garbage bin), they brought home what looked like a Christian Bible.

They played with it, abandoned it for another source of fun.

HeatSeeker:
No service today? 🤨

No link shared with me please. Sorry

Do not expect to much drama. I only opened this thread just to mention why the book came into my life.

There is no room for "chance" in life!

*Date* : Sunday, September 24, 2023

*Venue (In-Person):* Ikeja ECKANKAR Centre,
15 Abeokuta Street (by Agege Stadium), Agege, Lagos.

*Time* :
i. HU Song: 8.00am to 8.30am
ii. ECK Light and Sound Service: 9.00am to 10.15am

Theme of ECK Light and Sound Service: *GOD'S HELP IN EVERY TROUBLE*

Officiator: *Ene Nduka-Nwagbo, _Guest Speaker_*

You may attend any or both events online via zoom by clicking on the link below. The Online Platform opens at 07.45 am: