₦airaland Forum

I think that's only dreams. Let's talk about the real world and not what we expect them to be. Same for ideals of a man. What we want is not what we get.

Praying to Mary and the Saints

I will talk about the Catholic practice of asking Mary, saints and angels to pray for us. The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalm 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2)

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:. Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "An angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

Jesus himself warned us not to mess with small children because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man, Jesus is the only Mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1-4), including those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

I would be willing to bet they do not even examine the prayers we use to 'petition' Mary. Have you ever heard of the word 'intercession'? It is when we ask someone to pray for us. Lets look at a few Bible verses...

Rom 15:30, "...help me by your prayers to GOD for me."
Col 1:9, "This is why we too have been praying for you unceasingly."
1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more..."
2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you."
2Thes 3:1, "In conclusion brethren, pray for us..."
Jam 5:16, "...and pray for one another that you may be saved."
Rev 8:3-4 "...that he may offer it with the prayers of all the saints..."

The Bible is asking you to pray for one another. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever told someone you will pray for them? Why then, when the name of Mary is introduced, is it not to be asked of her? Was she not a created being like all the rest of us? Why can we ask everyone else to pray for us, but we can't ask it of Mary? Does it not stand to reason that her Son would listen to her and grant her requests?

He turned water into wine at Cana just by Mary making a remark, "They have no wine", Jn 2:3. He was subjected to her in Lk 2:51, and no doubt for many years until His ministry started at age 30. He listens to her now, just as He did then. She must have a lot more influence with Him than any of us do, since she is His mother.

Let us see what Catholics pray.

Have you ever listened to the words of the most used Marian prayer of all, the Hail Mary?

*** "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." ***
This is nothing more than the salutation of Gabriel in Luke 1:28.

*** "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)." ***
That is Elizabeth's greeting to Mary in Lk 1:42.

***"Holy Mary, mother of GOD." ***
She is a saint which makes her holy, and she is the Mother of GOD, because Elizabeth calls her the 'Mother of Our Lord' in Lk 1:43. Also if you take Jn 1:1 "...and the Word was GOD', and add it to Jn 1:14, "...and the Word was made flesh", GOD was made flesh, and who was His mother? Mary!

*** "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen." ***
This is nothing more than petitioning Mary to PRAY FOR US, just like in the Bible verses I presented. Do we 'pray to' Mary, or are we only petitioning her to pray for us?

Now the next question is, 'Yes, but it is repetitious (the Rosary) and that is forbidden by scripture'. (Mt 6:7)

OK, look at the entries listed above which have the asterisk (*) in front of them.

Are not Col 1:9, "This is why we have been praying for you unceasingly...", 1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more...", and 2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you...", repetitious? Is this one of those so called 'Bible Conflicts' you hear about from time to time?

No, not at all. The answer is that the Bible refers to two types of prayer repetition 'Vain', in the manner of heathens, and 'Useful', NOT in the manner of heathens.

The Rosary is not vain repetition. Here is a list of some that you can check in your Bible.

Isa 6:3, Dan 3:52-90, Mt *26:44, Lk 6:12, Lk 18:1,9-14,21:36, Col 1:9, 1Thes 3:10,5:17, Jam 5:16, Rev 4:8

One final note:
Many non-Catholics have the belief that praying to "dead" people is useless. This is a mis-interpretation of what Holy Scripture teaches us, for the Blessed Virgin Mary and others who have gone on before us are not dead but live forever.

You pay for your sins not for not accepting salvation in Christ.

Yeah right. Yeah works count nothing but bullshit words do right. Words my ass.

Classic lady, where did you take that from. Definately don't know what you are talking about. Classy my ass

Maybe you should learn something.

You tithe if you want to, but why include me?

And who says that, you?

Does Italian sound a bell. Horrible and no class. Yeah, SLUTTY, that's the word.

Yes I agree with that. Am not saying one should not give. Giving is part of being in closeness with God but noone should force anyone the amount.

they look horrible

You jealous because of my good looks

Relax. I want a dancer really, still not found her yet. I wonder where is she hiding.

You cry all the time. Was he a model or something?

Or in other words what's best for the pentecostal church

As to obedience to authority and anti-intellectualism, I surely not agree with them. Am not exactly gnostic then but very close.

I don't really care if it's gnosticism or lungabungalunga for that matter. At least that approach has not got crazy ideas.

Most people mess things up, a lot. What is your opinion on the matter. For me the muslim belief and view of God in enough. The problem is that it is not as most christian people expect them too, especially those who hold a fundamentalist approach to the Bible.

All the other ideas all fall short.

God's trinity is based on the biblical revelation that God is Love (I John 4:8, 16). Love cannot exist all alone; it is by very nature directed toward another. We love someone or something, who is the object of our love. In fact, in order for love to exist there must be three elements:

1. A "Lover", that is, one who does the loving
2. A "Beloved" - the one who is loved, and
3. The Love itself which binds them together

Now if God is Love, and love needs these three elements, then these elements must exist in God. And they do: God the Father is the Eternal Lover, God the Son is the Beloved (Eph 1:6; Mt 3:17) and the Holy Spirit is the Divine Love binding Them together eternally.

This is also an excellent image of the Holy Trinity, for it clearly reveals the origin of the Beloved Son. The Second Person Jesus the son is the Personal Expression of the Father's eternal Self-Concept. Thus the Beloved Son is also called the "Word" (John 1:1), the Expression or Utterance of God. The Father loves the Son because the latter is a perfect Image of Himself (Col 1:16; He 1:3), a perfect Self-Concept (after all, how could the Omniscient One have an imperfect Self-Concept?). And the Holy Spirit arises from the Father's love for His Son/Word.

The main difference being that the Former are three distinct Persons, while the latter are not.

Revelation means that Jesus brought information about God's being. Jesus spoke about a relationship as between father and son.

There cannot be any difference between them concerning their attributes. God the father and Jesus the son are different ways of God's revelation to the world. The meaning of salvation, means salvation to mankind, not to any particulat individual. Salvation means that if God himself did not pay the price, there was no possibility for forgiveness and reconsiliation with God.

Correct me if I am wrong

Two clear Biblical teachings:

1. Salvation is made possible by the death of Christ on the cross. Apart from Christ and what he did, there is no salvation. (Acts 4:12, John 14:6; Lk 10:22). The concept of salvation is of what Christ did and not about those who seek God’s mercy while practicing some other religion (or none).

2. Non-Christians can, at least in principle, perceive God’s righteousness and their need for His mercy. (Romans 1:18-20, 2:14-16; Acts 17:28). Again here there is no mention about Jesus, only on God. So yes one can get to God. And Yes muslims recognize Jesus. The problem is that it is not as many christians expect them to. Snobbery in my opinion.

God will not turn away people who seek His mercy, even if their understanding of Him is vague and they understanding of Christ.
(Some of God’s people in the Old Testament knew little about Him and His works; one example appears to be Melchisedek.)

So you think that's because he was Catholic. I tell you, my lady was pentecostal and I got hurt too. It's all in the heart really, not which church you go to.

Here the words in Romans 2:14-16 are pertinent:

14. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.

15. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

16. This will take place on the day when God judges everyone's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Am not arguing he's a christian if he says he is. But the Bible says in John 14:6 " Jesus said to him " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me". Thats the way to the Father in the Bible, if he's a christian then he should know: Theres only ONE way.

When Jesus said " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me", Jesus used this illustration to reveal God's attitude towards our sins and how absurd it is to think that we can pay it back.

Someone had to suffer and pay for our sins since God is JUST. It was Jesus. Therefore, I should admit my sin, turn from my sin, believe and receive the gift of forgiveness and praise to God . Jesus had made peace with God possible again. That's what that means.

I'm off now. I'll read tomorrow. Have good evening. Was also in a funny mode today especially considering the Victoria Station and the baby thing.

I have heard the government has put a rover on mars. I wonder if there is any way the government can improve the bus service over here or an escalator at Victoria Tube Station.

Another thing. I have heard the government has put a rover on mars. I wonder if there is any way the government can improve the bus service over here or an escalator at Victoria Tube Station.

In Summary:

Baby's head grew larger. (Ok perhaps true)
That baby could not get out (Ok, but this sounds fishy, something stupid is going to happen)
All babies are born premature
Premature babies are underdeveloped. (I better stop)

Anyway you think biology is different. I tell you what, CT scan, X-ray were invented by physicists and some physicians have no clue how to interpret them.