₦airaland Forum

[quote author=Mr. Globe link=topic=794653.msg9468140#msg9468140 date=1320258895]@Coogar and @brainpulse, you ve really made your points. You dont need to explain yourselves further. Anybody who wants to ask any questions should read your posts for answers. I admire the intelligence and unbiasness although I lol at the comment about alaska. The problem with majority of Nigerians is they are too bias. Rather than tackle the massage they are tackling the messenger. They forget that the remaining 15% is wide enough to accept people on here. Nigeria is poor period. That 80% is outdated. 85% is it today!!!! How many abokis that charge #20 make #300 a day x millions of them in every city? How many 'touts', offloaders. Here is where people eat without being sure of next. BITTCCH PLS!![/quote]you nailed it with your first comment, bro.

even if they make 1000 naira a day as income. you still have to deduct his overheads from that.
a fact that eludes ziga with his vacuous reasoning. a vulcanizer must pay taxes to the countless of touts that harass him. there are other issues, the cost of his equipment, he puts gas in the cylinders, etc.

ziga reminds me of a window-licker.

ziga:
I think your mentality is the problem. You are going on and on talking about living far away from civilization, knowing obama etc etc. . . Look missy, that is not what we are talking about here, so your argument is off-beat. All that shi.t doesn't mean crap.

you are not intelligent enough to discern the difference between spending [/b]and [b]living.

We are talking about only the people who live on less than $2 daily. It's actually very simple.

yes, more than 80% live on $2 daily in nigeria unless you are a blind bat.

Actually, you are correct, i grew up in Lagos, but unfortunately, there are also many poor people in Lagos just like in other parts of the country, so your point is pointless

you are a tool!
there aren't so many poor people in lagos. they just choose to live rough while building dream homes in their villages. majority of those ones are not the ones that are living below $2 per day and the 20% living well can still accommodate those ones you see in lagos hustling to make a living.

your problem is the math!
but if you think there are more than 32 million nigerians living well, then you need a spiritual deliverance.

You really sound like a frustrated kid judging from your last few sentences here. Just be careful not to break mummy's laptop!!!

you sound like a mongolian [i]i[/i]diot being fisted by goblins.

ziga:
Miss Coogar

Let me re-interpret something for you.

80% of Nigerians live on <$2 per day = 80% of the Nigerians you know live on <$2 per day = 4 out of 5 Nigerians you know live on <$2 per day.

Does that sound correct to  you? ? ?

very correct.

because we all belong to the top 10% of the people living well, we tend to think everyone's alright. everyone here has a laptop and a wifi connection or a phone powered by 3g/edge. we all make the top 10% in that country and we tend to have affiliates or know people like us so we believe all is well and dandy. that is so far from the truth. the fact is. . . . .the majority live below $2.

go to damaturu, zamfara, the jungles of gombe etc and go and see people who don't know who obama is, people who are far away from civilization then the reality will hit you. the united nations are not silly. they see what we don't see. you probably lived all your life in lagos. used to seeing exotic cars, designer gear, etc and you think that is what the population can afford!

you are so so clueless!

n.b. the next time you call me miss - i will call you a whor[i]e[/i]
coogar is a bloke!

edicolove:
You certainly live in the Uk and have no clue. About the north, you are right to some extent, because of the high rate of almajiris. But in the south, you are soooo wrong. There are a lot of people suffering but not 80%. Phones do not sell for N200 in computer village. Not even stolen phones. You can get like N1200 for the lowest level nokia phones. It is very true that many Nigerians can afford a phone and therefore do not fall into the category that live on $2. On top of that, just go to the beer parlours around very poor areas like Musihn and Ajegunle and see the so called poor people drinking bottles of beer. A bottle of beer costs around N130. The truth is that suffering is a relative term. A man earning 100k a month can still be said to be suffering.

you are the one clueless here.
80% of nigerians are suffering and i am willing to bet the percentage is closer to 90 than 80.

20% of nigeria(the affluents) is 32 million.
that's almost 5 times the population of libya and that number is more than all the neighbouring west african countries put together.
the people you see in those beer parlours and selling phones are in the 20% category. they are not "poor".

redsun:
Bad and nagging wives usually make bad mothers.Hostile women in marraiges always seem to turn out as bad mothers,their hostility tend to extend to their children and everything they do.It never goes away.

This is solely based on my observations.What do you think?

i disagree.

a bad wife does not necessarily make a bad mother.

bad wife - her relationship with you is bad.
bad mother - her relationship with her kids is bad.

it's not written in stone.
she might not love you wholeheartedly but loves her kids.

some men are bad husbands but adorable fathers.
some women are good wives but disgusting mothers.

[quote author=Mr_TA link=topic=716327.msg9467816#msg9467816 date=1320255779]Will be surprised if Rooney and Park dont start.[/quote]anything fergie likes let him play. . . .
we must get 3 points tonight and the remaining matches.

top of the table - yay!!!!
the play looks a bit laboured. valencia is a tool! the worse player despite his goal.
nani was wasted on the left. anderson(some parts good, some parts horrible). . . .rooney is not a midfielder.

ogajim:
^^^
Long winded GARBAGE!

This "coogar" dude/woman might be dr. fireman's NL ID, how else could any SANE person defend that nonsense? Poverty really is a disease that infects the brain cells making them redundant.

I will not even dash this scammer my urine let alone hard-earned cash.

you must have an attention span shorter than a congolese midget.

if i defend gadaffi's regime here, i must be him or one of his sons, right?
yet you wonder why we call you a tool!

OLAADEGBU:
Thanks for sharing this. A hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. And this is KJV. We notice that there is nothing like a hundred wives here. Luke also captures this saying in the verse below:

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come everlasting life" (Luke 18:29-30).

Check the plurals against the singular, the present time and the world to come.  You will notice that wife is in the singular He did not say wives, and that this will happen in this present time and if it is for the kingdom's sake he will be rewarded with everlasting life.  There is no marriage or giving in marriage in heaven.

If you are to understand anything at all know that one man is only entitled to one wife and not many wives in this present time and that there is no marriage in heaven.

vedaxcool is desperate!

anyone who thinks 100 wives will be given in heaven or 100 mothers and 100 fathers would be given in heaven is just being doltish!
there's nothing like that.

slimyem:
sweery,been here all this while buh i can't give you alien sex for free.you gotta spend some cool alien money on this skin.m waiting,

at least, show me the skin you want me to spend my money on.
agent badosky is not doing her job very well - sexkillz should have sacked her by now.

chamotex:
@coogar, I'm still going to be in Manchester till Saturday, going to the Sunderland game as well if you are up for it but I think that might be sold out already or almost

is that a 3pm game or 5.30pm?
my guy, find me a ticket na.

Sagamite:
They are that gullible.

i pity nigerians!

Let me give you facts.

- Nigeria is regarded as one of the most religious place in the world. So Nigerians are very religious.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3490490.stm

- Many go to churches that promise the prosperity and progress.

- Many of these churches have existed for decades and have large and GROWING followership.

- Yet, the lives of Nigerians have not improved in those decades, 80% live on less than 2% a day, far more than the roughly 48% in 1980.

- The pastors of the churches are some of the richest in the world and live an Affluent life.

GULLIBLE!

unless you have any substantial proof that people of the other religions are living better than christians in nigeria, these statistics don't mean much.
pastors are mainly rogues, isn't it? imams don't flex muscles like pastors neither do babalawos and other idol worshippers. so why aren't worshippers of other gods richer than the average christian in nigeria? do you have an answer to that?

People looking vibrant and happy on video is not proof of progress in their lives. If you know anything about Nigeria, you will know people wear their best attire for church service and the service is a relief and point of hope from the stress of Nigerian life for those foolishly looking for "salvation", "progress", "prosperity" and "deliverance".

i admit they do dress in their best attire for church service but do they have to keep happy faces too?
mind, these people drop 10% of their income every month plus offering and other church projects lined in store. where do they get these money.
remember - the holy scriptures say:

"So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver"(2 Corinthians 9:7) and  "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you" (Luke 6:38)

if christians use a teaspoon to measure out their giving, God will use a teaspoon to measure out their blessings. if christians use a dump-truck to give, God will use a dump-truck to bless them spiritually.

sagamite, to actually call these cheerful givers mugu and gullible is wrong and it's against their scriptures - the things they believe in and will always believe in.

So you admit, he is using church funds for luxurious living as a marketing tool for his church's growth?

there's nothing bad in that.
something has to attract the average unbeliever to come to church and in a poverty-ridden state like nigeria, wealth attracts. when we see a young man riding jeeps and living a luxurious life, we all want to be like him. this brings multitudes of sheep to the church and they become converts!

Good, we are getting there. At least you got the first point. We now need to get you to get the second point that such acts is unprincipled and criminal when you collect money on behalf of God.

it is not unprincipled, they are actually laws in the scriptures.
refer to the bible quotes above.

70% live on less than $1 a day. 80% live on less than $2 a day. 99% live on less than $10 a day.

these statistics mean nothing. the holy book directs them to give as much as they want.
they are not mugus unless you don't believe the bible then there's no point for me to debate any further.

Life is hard. They are not driving Hummers despite working for their money.

in no time, they would.
that is the essence of giving out(without grudges or complaints) so they can be rewarded.

You didn't get me. I meant his congregation's "lives" hardly change (as in improve), not congregation size changing.

how do you know this? i have never heard of this man or his ministry until the channel 4 documentary. have you?

It seems your reasoning does not enable you to realise ministry should not be an avenue for riches. The "Second point" I was talking about you getting above. If you want to be rich, go and start a business. And, REMEMBER, a church should not be the business. Using a church funds to live an opulent life is a con.

so what then happens to all the money the congregation contribute every week to expand and improve the welfare of the elders of the church?
if the members want their pastor to have a good house, a fleet of exotic cars and private jets, who are we to say no? are you aware people actually give pastors their personal cars, money, other incentives to improve the church?

Yes, church tithe is meant for church work (e.g. the musical instruments, the chairs, the video cameras, other equipments, etc) and even the pastor's salary. It is not meant to enable the pastor live an opulent life that the average congregation member donating his sweat can only dream off despite all the pastor's false promises.

you make this sound as if the pastor takes the ultimate decision to buy this and that - no. that is not the case.
there's a council or a board that decides what to do with the surplus. they make the decision to improve the welfare of their pastors or buy him a private jet to expand the ministry. only in community churches of 12 member congregation can a pastor make the ultimate decision to squander the money entrusted to him by his flock.

Sane and non-gullible people expect the church funds to be used for expanding the church, its works and its good deeds JUDICIOUSLY, not for the pastor to use it to live a high-life.
Instead of buying a private jet, pastor's inclined to buy a jet should buy a commercial jet to carry more people or an air ambulance for good deeds.

it's the same sane and non-gullible people who decide to buy the pastor what he uses. he does not make such decisions.
all those big churches have different boards and elders council who make these decisions. they have accountants, consultants, auditors, project managers etc

Instead of buying a hummer, pastor's inclined to buy a vehicle should buy 4 buses that go to different corners of the state and pick up people without cars for church service and save them the cost of transportation.

what makes you think they don't do this? my church has about 8 luxurious buses that go to different corners of my borough to pick people up and drop them back. my church pays the rent/mortgage of jobless folks in the church and connect them with jobs. there are rogue churches and there are living churches. don't paint all of them with the same brush is all i am asking here.

So the street scammer asked people that want to buy his fake products to pay, his friend comes forward and pays, he appears to think the product is fantastic and vocalises it. How is that different? Sure, according to your reasoning, you think the they are not scammers?

it's a different ball game, sagamite.
people who pay in church do so willingly - regardless of how the money is being used. what happens to the money is between God and the people keeping the money. it should not concern the giver. when you give without grudges, there's no mugu-con man

There are millions of Nigeria like this 2000 that go to weekend service every week in Nigeria. Most of them poor. They block the Lagos-Ibadan expressway. So, according to your logic, they wouldn't be going there "every week except there is progress". Nigeria must be a great place to live then?

according to the scriptures they religiously believe, they go there and give without grudges. this lagos-ibadan expressway religious service has hosted state governors, ministers, commissioners, top celebrities. they are all mugus too?

£15K is N3.75m. Nigerian ministers make less than N3m as salary but that is by the way and irrelevant. Lets say they even make £150K (more than the UK PM), the point is how can they afford a private jet? So drop irrelevant points.

people don't have savings? because i make £100 a day now means i don't have over £135,000 in savings over the years?
besides, don't people make contribution or must the private jet come from one individual - the nigerian minister?
stop this straws-clutching.

So this is a church and not politics? And so what? Does that not tell you that a pastor is likely to make far less than a Nigerian Minister? So how come the pastor can afford a Hummer?

i doubt any nigerian minister can make as much as the big churches in nigeria.
rccg, christ embassy, winners chapel are big churches with millions of members who give on the regular to expand the ministry.
how much is a hummer if i may ask?

So are you telling me you think IBB and Odili were not corrupt?

is fashola corrupt? was awolowo corrupt?
aren't they politicians like dimeji bankole?

should every politician from ogun state be painted with the same brush because bankole embezzled obscene amounts of money?

They is no evidence of a billionaire in his church.

he doesn't need a billionaire, sagamite.
if i am attending dr fireman's church and i was in pursuit of a multi-million naira contract and the contract came through. . . via his prayers.
i am required to drop 10% of that contract. so what is a hummer in comparison to that? how much is a hummer?

And if one has to make assumptions, it is ridiculous and lame to assume there is one considering the size of the church, the lack of hint of one and the poverty levels of the nation making it unlikely. Make smart assumptions.

there are billionaires in nigeria and you can find them in any corner of the country.

Show me the part of the holy book that said it.

matthew 6:1-4

1 When you do good deeds, don't try to show off. If you do, you won't get a reward from your Father in heaven.

2 When you give to the poor, don't blow a loud horn. That's what show-offs do in the meeting places and on the street corners, because they are always looking for praise. I can assure you that they already have their reward.

3 When you give to the poor, don't let anyone know about it.

4 Then your gift will be given in secret. Your Father knows what is done in secret, and he will reward you.

do you still think all christians are mugus or the holy bible is a book of fraud?

Exactly! So your analogy about me living in the UK was senseless. The reason I can rationally and intelligently assume Fireman is a con is because he has the same modus operandi of other cons and he is living the same lifestyle.

but this same modus operandi is the standard of every church in nigeria.
which means you think the whole christianity thing is a fraud, right?

What are the odds of winning the Euromillion? There are better odds off lightning striking you.

not necessarily the grand-prize.
people win the crumbs(hundreds of thousand pounds) of it twice a week. go to their website and see for yourself.

Compare the Euromillion odds to the odds that a Nigerian that is living the high-life, while making peanuts, is not from a rich family and works with access to credit card details is engaged in credit card fraud.

euromillion isn't the only "get rich quickly" scheme we have in the world.
there are other various schemes people get into and most of the time, it's the poor folks who win.

Make sensible assumptions when you need to make one.
The disabled guy was the same on the BBC crew saw walking before the service. Do you know a scam when you see one?

word of mouth - i only believe what i see on camera.
if you are not an eye witness, then you are a lie witness.
you are educated and sensible. from what you have seen in the documentary - do you think it's enough to convict pastor fireman in any court of law?

i need your yes/no.

Let me edjucate you now, if a pastor:

- keeps making incredible, outrageous and unprovable promises.
- is heavily focused on asking for money (and devicing ways for getting money) to be donated by the congregation.
- starts living a luxurious life he did not have before he started the church and which 99% of the congregation can not afford.
- does not have any public accounting of how church money is spent.

HE IS A ROGUE!

Do you understand?

i understand that perfectly but how do you know dr fireman ticks all the huge points you have made here.
you don't know for sure if he keeps the account of the church revenue, you don't know for sure what his congregation can afford, you don't know for sure if he makes the ultimate decision on what to spend the money on. how do you then conclude he is a rogue?

The fraud darren exposed at a high-level was:

Pastors that:

- keep making incredible, outrageous and unprovable promises.
- are heavily focused on asking for money (and devicing ways for getting money) to be donated by the congregation.
- start living luxurious lives they did not have before they started the church and which 99% of the congregation can not afford.
- do not have any public accounting of how church money is spent.

and darren exposed them by actually going into their churches to reveal the lies, deceit and the obscene tricks these con men use to fleece their sheep. a pastor using an ear piece to reveal information of the congregation and pretended it was the holy spirit that told him is a fraud in black and white. this is what i would expect from any documentary about pastor fireman. not conjectures, past history of other rogue pastors or 4X4 matrix of sniffing a rogue pastor.

occam:
How many Nigerians cannot afford the 5 basic needs above?  80%? 60%? 50%? I don't know. What I know is far too many Nigerians are not living but are in "survival mode" Little wonder life expectancy for an average Nigerian male is under 55

We need to stop playing these numbers games and focus on the real challenges.

the life expectancy for an average nigerian is actually 47(30% below world average).
if you know anyone one older than 47 in nigeria, he is living on overtime.

deenee:
For those talking about phones. My dad still uses his phone which as I type is about six years old-he is very old school and the  phone is strictly  for calls and SMS only!. He is a VERYYYYYYYYYYYY comfortable man in all ramifications, so I beg to ask, does that make him poor?

you have answered the question yourself. he is old school, he is not poor and he is not really in tune with the new technological age of downloading apps or facebooking on his phone. try that with your brother, give him a phone of about 6 yrs old and let's see if he won't complain.
stop mixing apples and oranges.

We have been brain washed into thinking that if we don't get the new IPAD 2 or Iphone 4S then, we are living in 'poverty'. We have also been brainwashed into thinking that if we don't have similar basket of goods then, we leaving in poverty. Please what is the difference between baked beans sold in a can for £1/ 250 naira and a plate of home cooked beans which sells for 20 pence/ 50 naira?

dysentry and perhaps diarrhoea.

So, if I  decide to substitute for baked   beans and hence the price of my basket of goods drops, then does that mean I am living  in 'poverty'? The analogy does not add up at all and we need to understand and question it!

do so at your own peril!

Poverty is not determined by how much you have lined your pockets with, It is simply a state of mind. We need to de-congest that state of mind, if we must move forward as a country. It is this kind of reverse mentality (a common psychological pandemic in Nigeria), that will make a Phd holder to leave his not too 'rosy' teaching job in Nigeria and become a cab driver on the streets of New York or a masters degree holder to become a cleaner or securityman!

people just want a better life. people don't want to die in abject poverty.
the masters degree holder is jobless in nigeria because there are millions of masters degree holders fighting for the same job. if he then travels abroad to work as a security man where his salary(£1200 per month) feeds his immediate family and helps his retired parents. . . .do you think he cares what people say about his security job? the key is survival!

Another question, how many black berry users in Nigeria have bought their BB on credit?

most of them were handouts from the same master degree holders who are work as security men/cleaners abroad.
the other fraction are the wannabes who want to punch above their weights. they purchase the devices and drink garri for several months to balance their books. the third fraction are the ones who pay for them outrightly or the ones who pay in instalments for their dream phones. the latter group make up 1% of the blackberry users in nigeria.

deenee:
We have been BRAINWASHED by the western media. QED! I support the point that the originator of this thread is trying to raise. I had an intellectual discourse with one of my American professors during an interactive session and I raised the same point. What they have used to arrive at this ludicrous assumption is PPP (purchasing  power parity) or 'Law of One Price'. PPP is an economic theory that estimates the amount of adjustment needed on the exchange rate between countries in order for the exchange to be equivalent to each currency's purchasing power

agreed!

However in reality, the price for basket of goods differ from country to country, is determined by several factors( exchange rates inclusive) and they have failed to realize this. Why not try and reverse the question and ask  thus: can someone in Britain live on less than £2 per day or an American on less than $2 per day? I guess we all know the answer to that! No doubt, we have our own plethora of problems in Nigeria, but I believe that we are better off than most of us are made to believe. Please don't believe everything you hear or watch on TV. Most of it,  is 'propaganda' and it is a pity that we keep falling for it over and over again. Just like most still think that Africa is a country!

the cost of living in britain is higher than that of nigeria so i wouldn't expect anyone to live on less than £2 per day in britain when the minimum wage is £5 per hour. it means if you work 8 hours anywhere in britain(no matter how dirty the job may be), you will make £40 per day.
i repeat. . . .£40 per day.

An average undergraduate in Britain leaves University with debt in excess of £50,000. In the USA, it is about $60,000-$65,000. How many Nigerian undegrads have that kind of debt by the time they are leaving school? If you earn £40,000 circa per annum in the UK, it will take you an average of about 10-15 years just to save for a 'down payment' to secure a mortgage of £250,00 for a modest 3 bedroom semi detached bungalow (taking into account that your income is taxed at source) and this is just an equity contribution of secure the mortgage!

education is not cheap. more so tertiary education.
it's only in nigeria we believe everyone must bag a degree. in most countries, this is not so. education is not for everyone.

you went on to say people who earn £4,000 per annum will take an average of 10-15 yrs to save for a down-payment? where did you get that statistics from? do you know the average age of first time buyers in the uk is 31? how many 31 yr olds own a flat in nigeria? how many 31 yr olds still stay with their parents in nigeria?

are you aware the amount needed for down payment varies and depends on the individual's credit score? are you also aware some home owners got 110% mortgage - meaning they paid nothing to secure their dream homes?
you have exaggerated too much in your post to be considered serious.

In Nigeria, if you earn the equivalent which is a six figure sum, you can comfortably build your own house (to your own specs) in four year or less if you are prudent. We are easily brain washed by the media. A modest student room with shared facilities (kitchen, toilet et al.) cost about £450/$600 per month in most schools over here. In a year that is about £5400/$6000. With that kind of money in Nigeria, you can rent a nice place depending on location and be the lord and manor of your abode.

everything you have said here points to the cost of living in different countries.
minimum wage in nigeria in a month = £80
minimum wage in britain in a month = £1200
as you can see, the difference is clear.

We really need to change our  mindset. Everything here is obtained on credit (from common hand phones, electronic appliances,clothes cars, mortgages and even holiday travel plans- I still can't understand why I would want to take a loan to travel on holiday!) . The reality is that they actually need us more than we need them. The sooner we realize this hard truth the better for us!

it is obtained on credit because britain is one of the most expensive places to live in.
what kind of work would you be doing to afford paying for a £250,000 home? with £1200/month salary. it means you would need at least 13-15yrs to be able to buy a house. . . . that wouldn't suit everyone so they came up with the credit scoring system to help people out.
if we have such system in place in nigeria, it would alleviate nigeria's poverty.

pslm23:
Growing up as a child, it was drummed into my head and the heads of my brothers and sisters, that if we constantly dis-respected our parents and caused them so much grief that they could curse us and that curse would stick. Because of this, I have always respected my elders not just my parents.

A conversation came up yesterday between my sister and i about curses and I remembered 2 of my paternal uncles that are suffering and have been having a hard knock life for most of their lives. Everything they touch always crumbles. They haven't been able to keep a job no longer than 30 days in their lives. They like women too much and women like them too but when it comes to marriage, it's like a brick wall appears. They are well educated men with degrees in Business Admin and Political Science respectively. These men are now in their late 60s and still single and jobless living in our ancestral home in the village. They've rented out all the rooms in that house to students and just as quickly as the money comes in, it goes with nothing to show for it. We have received reports that our home in the village is falling apart from lack of repair and maintainance and yet they are collecting money.

I remember my mum telling us that my uncles caused my grand parents so much grief and they even went as far as hitting my grandma a couple of times, screaming at her, calling her names and generally dis-respecting her. One day my granny grabbed her belly and told them that for every tears she has shed on account of their dis-respect, they will suffer greatly but of course nobody paid it any mind.
My question is this, do curses really work or is this just a typical case of bad luck?

i don't believe curses work. . . .
at the same time, we should respect our elders as we want out juniors to respect us.
the uncle that caused his grannies so much grief and went on to slap them will certainly hit a brick-wall. the grannies don't have to curse him.
karma would!

Iolo:
Here's the link.

businessdayonline.com/NG/index.php/tech/telecoms/25088-blackberry-hits-1million-mark-in-nigeria

So if Nigerians own 1.2M blackberries with 500,000 active subscribers, it means we represent slightly more than 1.5% of the 70M blackberry users worldwide.

if you trust any nigerian statistics then you are as lost as a red bororo goat wandering in alaska.
how did they come up with the stats?

from the link, only 500,000 are active subscribers - while i am aware there are users who don't have the b.i.s. on their devices, it's a guess that they make up to 700,000. so i need to know how this link arrived at that figure.

Iolo:
If we say 80% Nigerians are poor. We have 90M mobile phones and up to a million blackberry's now.

Assuming that on average only 50% of the lines are in use, that's 45M sim cards presently in a mobile phone.

Can someone who owns a mobile phone, pays @ least 100 transport daily, feeds with ~200naira, pays school fees etc. Be said to be live below $2/day?.

Here's a list of people in Nigeria who validly live below $2/day (and am not saying the rest are rich either):

Mad People
Sick(Bed-Ridden), Beggars,
Toddlers, Kids (14 downwards), Almajiris (~12 - 20 yrs)
Old people (70years+)

Add these people up and you don't get 120M (assuming we r 150M).

The rest of us are simply underemployed, shikena.

Sadly, Nigeria now lacks a thinking/problem-solving culture. When faced with issues rather than think why it is like that, we simply accept, and say "ehen, I have suspecting this is how it is".

i doubt there are up to 500,000 blackberries in nigeria, let alone 1 million.

just so you know, there are only 70 million blackberry phones worldwide.
only 43 million use the blackberry internet service worldwide and the b.i.s. is available in 91 countries . . .so how would nigeria have 1 million active users? na yam?

like mr. globe said, 80% poverty rate is very generous. i will say 90% live on less than $2 per day.

thameamead:
@ coogar,
Fireman is a CON man believe it or not, at the strategy meeting with the wannabe fake pastors, these were his words " advertising what the church can do in terms of miracles and healing, generating money from congregation is key to growth and the surplus money will be used to open more branches" he's a clever man, he's not running a business, he's running a business to generate more money for himself.

how is this fraudulent. he said generating money from congregation is key to growth and the surplus cash will be used to open more branches.
did he say surplus money will be used to buy hummer jeeps and 20-bedroom mansions? is this not the way all the churches in the world grew and the gospel expanded? who do you think pay for all those televangelists. all those tv evangelism you see on tv channels @ prime time, where do you think they get the money from? from the local government?

the people he claimed to cure, why did they decline an interview with the reporter?

why would they talk to a reporter about their miracle?
who is the reporter? where does he come from? what gives him any authority to interview anyone?
go to church of england with a camera and ask the congregation you want to interview them and let's see how they would respond. . . .

he claimed to have raised people from the dead but with no evidence to back it off.

so he should have sent dvds to seyi rhodes showing how he raises people from the dead?
more obtuse reasoning from a supposed learned person.

i won' t be shocked if you are one of the fake pastors? i don't understand why people like you want to believe in fake pastors and fake miracles.

and yet more obtuse thoughts. . . . .you'd better attack the issue and not the personality.
when your arguments become watery, the way out is to throw shots in the dark. so because i am on the other side of the argument automatically makes me a fake pastor? you are super-daft! nigeria will continue to remain stagnant with people like you.

mbatuku2:

Choi! Enjoyment go plenty for this kind heaven. Hope say HIV no go dey.

there will be no s[i]e[/i]x in heaven. . . . .take that from me!

[quote author=aloy/emeka link=topic=792568.msg9462585#msg9462585 date=1320191113]Roflmao; so Allah will rebuild their hymen?. What happens after they lose the virginity after the first zex?. Will Allah reload the men's bed with new virgins or will he continue to reseal the hymen of the old women?. In essence, Allah will be dashing out 72 refurbished virgins and not pristine ones, abi?. Why seek for refurbished ones whne one can get brand new ones here in earth?. Sani Abacha traveled across the world in search of young pretty virgins and was even paying as much as N5M per girl; Are you saying that Allah is entertaining him now with refurbished virgins?. Otioooo [/quote]don't be super-obtuse.
humans are flesh + spirit. when we die, the flesh remains and the spirits of the righteous ones travel to heaven!
the flesh goes back to dust as you will see in many graves.

hymen is flesh and it shall remain on earth or it can take strolls to hell where orgi[i]e[/i]s would be a daily activity.
only the spirit enters heaven so in other words, every woman in heaven shall be a virgin.
i actually don't believe the 72-virgin theory. God will not permit men to turn his holy sanctuary into a whorehouse of orgi[i]e[/i]s.

vedaxcool:
Mathew 19
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an [size=18pt]hundredfold[/size], and shall inherit everlasting life.

hundredfold in properties. . . . .not hundredfold in humans.
it is not possible for a man to have 100 fathers and 100 mothers.
your attempt to twist the scriptures fell flat on it's face.

Here Jesus promises to give a 100 wives , lands houses, hence atleast the unsound hadith about 72 Houris is quite less compared to 100. My Muslim brothers/sisters maybe we need to remind them whatis in their bible, the 100 wives promise 

he did not.
because he wouldn't give every individual that hath forsaken his mum, 100 mothers or 100 fathers.
it's quite different to the hadith talking about 72 houris.

is it possible for you to have 100 fathers? 100 mothers?
vedaxcool, think about it.
do you guys actually believe you will have access to 72 virgins?

chamotex:
Gonna be live at OT tonight.
Will have a word with Fergie about Evans after the match

farking hell. . . . .
i was going to go for the match too but work has taken me faraway to leeds!
evans remains unshakable though. . . . .smalling's injury means evans is going nowhere until he becomes vidic.

[quote author=aloy/emeka link=topic=792568.msg9462524#msg9462524 date=1320189457]Have you wondered what will happen to your 5exual life in heaven since your men will be elevated to 72 virgins?. What will happen to non-virgin muslim women in heaven or are you expected to go to heaven with a vbrator?.[/quote]don't be so obtuse.
every woman in heaven will be a virgin. . . .

Idowuogbo:
I wanna gist about anytin, cocoa u elevate yarns

Cougar its your fault , d babe na money magnet u 4 spend on am money

do you have her picture.
lemme see what she looks like before i start peeling "mama charlie" notes.

[quote author=oti-igba link=topic=791491.msg9461845#msg9461845 date=1320181086]there is no need to insult me or my village, i am just making my own opinion, stick to the point ok, [b]did you not read in bible were christ told the rich man to sell every thing he has and give all away if he wants to go to haven [/b]obviously DR FIREMAN will not smell haven,besides DR FIREMAN is using the money to buy cars instead of using it to spread the word as you have suggested[/quote]the exact message pastor fireman is asking his congregation to do. only this time, he asks for their 10% to improve the church and expand the gospel.

where's my e-connector, slimyem?

sexkillz, you dey dull me o
$500,000 and no babe??

should i call he-hef-cee-cee?

[quote author=oti-igba link=topic=791491.msg9461010#msg9461010 date=1320172100]did jesus christ have 3 cars and wore expensive suits, gold wrist watches, infact from my understanding his father was a carpenter, so what are this people worshiping? cars and gold watches? jesus also said that a rich man will not go to haven[/quote]were there cars in the time of jesus?
did jesus not ride a beautiful donkey to jerusalem with people spreading their garments before him?
if i may ask, how do you spread the gospel without money? all those tv programmes you see on tv- what do you think pay for those? the community cocoa pods in your village?

Sagamite:
Really?
You are saying Nigerians are not gullible enough to be giving false hope and be feeding off that false hope from a so-called Man of God for a long time?
Really?
You have not been capable of observing that?
Who said they are being forced to worship?
Where did I say he started his church in the 90s?

nigerians are not that gullible to be enriching the vineyard of a pastor for long without any considerable progress in their lives. the church i saw in that documentary looks vibrant and the people there seem to be happy. besides, people are not forced to pay tithes and offering. why is no one addressing this fundamental issue? if the whole congregation decide not to put money for offering? will they be banned from coming to church?

So the fact he seems to operate the same model as the other numerous men of Con of:

- Start a church by claiming you have a "calling".
- Wear sharps suits and promise miracles and prosperity through the church and make services hype.
- Speak in tongues and perform elaborate displays of scam (that you call "miracles" with actors that claim they have an ailment that is not clearly visible, never ones that are visible.
- Tell the moronic congregation they have to give a fraction of all their earnings to be rewarded by God or before they can get God blessings.
- Suddenly, the pastors life gets very luxurious without explained source of income, while the congregation are spiritually fattened by "hope" that never materialises.
- Expand the scam to more mugus desperate for prosperity, miracles and salvation by hiring other Con men that will claim their lives have changed from his Gospel.

Does not matter?

the modus operandi might look the same but then something has to pay the bills for spreading the gospel. unless you want to tell me every church in nigeria or every pastor in nigeria is fraudulent, this is the same procedure pastors use to expand their churches and pull in more crowd. nigeria is a society where people's wisdom are measured with the amount of money they have. people will flee from a scruffy looking pastor and you know it.

And they keep on suffering?

suffer? how?
did anyone complain of suffering in the documentary?

His life becomes that of a millionaire while making empty promises through his army of scam men and the congregation's hardly change while he is living off their donations to God. His life is measured by the size of the church's funds based on people's donation to God!

what makes you think the congregation hardly change? he couldn't have started his ministry with 2,000 strong members. 10 became 20 and 20 grew exponentially over the years. other people see positive changes in the lives of their neighbours and they quickly join the ship to receive their own miracles.

Any sensible human will tell you that as the church grows, his opulent life will accelerate and he will get his private jet using the tithes of his following cretins looking for salvation.
So the pastor is conning them?

his opulent life will accelerate which he would have deserved. his teachings, his ministries, his miracles are bettering lives. i really don't see why nigerians generally have issues with pastors living a life of opulence. must they die in stark poverty?

That is by the way, common sense will tell you that although members give something to their pastors,

No 1, it is unethical for a man of God to received luxuries for the work of God.

No 2, it is unlikely it is a member's gift that bought him a Hummer. His church does not seem like it has members that can afford that solely. Just like it is unlikely a member bought Oyedepo a private jet. It is church money. Such things are bought as a marketing tool for their gullible cretins in Nigeria they know they can deceive with so-called "prosperity" and "betterment".

it's not unethical for a pastor to receive luxuries for the work he does. if he's a full-time pastor, his whole life is dedicated to the church. something must pay his bills and this is where the concept of paying tithes/offering emanated from. money is spent putting that place together. the musical instruments, the chairs, the video cameras, other equipments, etc. who do you think pay for all those stuffs every sunday?

It seems the fact that the man you are using as example dropped his tithe for God and not for pastor to buy himself a Hummer eludes your reasoning.

but the money will not be burnt as a sacrifice to God. it will be used to expand and improve his ministry. that fact eludes you as well.
when people pay tithe in God's house - they do not expect the money to be put on a jet plane travelling to heaven. they expect it to be used to beautify the church and pay for the services the church needs.

What logic process do you have not to realise it is fraud for a pastor to not highlight his relationship with the person rather than give the impression it was a stranger coming from unknown looking for miracle?

this is hilarious!
the pastor asked everyone with a relationship problem to step out. his secretary is among the people who stepped out. he prayed for them generally and the secretary appeared to have demons terrorizing her. seriously, where is the fraud in this?

What difference is that from the East London conmen that get their friends coming to buy "quality goods" at their transient street stalls to encourage others to buy it.

[flash=400,350]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o1UXSxTjfo[/flash]

Is that a con or it is just a honest sale to a friend?

you seriously wanna compare this to what happens in the church?

I am yet to see your hard evidence of "considerable progress in the lives of his congregation for them to be visiting his church" you claim.

if there's no progress, they wouldn't be going there every week.
for 2,000 people who are successful in the various businesses they do to be mumu will take a lot of magical spell cast on them. i am going by what the man interviewed said. you can tell that man is successful and does not mind putting 10% of his income in the church. if he believes that is what blesses his business, who are we to think he's a mugu?

Your reasoning is equivalent to saying you want to see hard evidence that a public official of a notoriously corrupt country like Nigeria, who was not rich before being appointed to a [b]Minister position[/b], all of a sudden can afford a private jet, 10 mansions in Monaco and 15 luxury cars while not having any other visible and legal source of income apart from his £15,000 a year government salary.

this analogy is not quite it.
this is church not politics and ministers must earn more than £15k per annum in nigeria.

and if i were investigating a case like the scenario above. i will examine his case separately from the hundreds of thousands of public officers who have embezzled money in the past. this is what i am asking you to do concerning pastor fireman. that pastor nwabueze has stolen church funds before in 2005 does not make pastor fireman a rogue.

Now explain to me how smart it is to not be able to make conclusions.
No 1, is there a billionaire in his congression?

who knows? there may be a billionaire in his church.
besides, fireman doesn't need a billionaire in his church to afford the opulent life he's living. a score of multi-millionaires in his congregation is enough to provide the hummer and the other suv-s

No 2, if a member donates such to him, do you think it will not be announced and be common knowledge

people who donate such stuffs do it anonymously. the holy book said if you donate and you announce yourself by showing off, you have already claimed your reward. but if you make such donations anonymously, then a heavenly reward awaits the donor. ask around - big donors don't make announcements

No 3, do you think it does not make sense he announces it to show openness as a so-called clergyman?

if the donor wants to be anonymous then he shall remain anonymous.
the pastor will just say "a member of our church donated so so so and so. praise the lord!"

Do you see me accusing Jarus or Oyb of looting church funds? Why the silly analogy?

jarus and oyb don't have churches they run.
if they run one and they are prosperous, you will accuse them of looting.

If I was not employed in a great job and I am not from a rich family, yet I am blowing thousands at one go in clubs, buying a house worth £950K in Clapham and living above my means without any proof of source of my funds, yet you know I work in a junior clerk job that involves access to credit card details, what will a person with a brain conclude?

a proud winner of the euromillion jackpot!
is that impossibe? why should i automatically think you are a fraudster because your income does not match your spendings?
we need to get this mentality out of our heads.

And your point is?
He did not heal the disabled like other fraudulent pastors do?

do we know for certain the disabled guy was planted in the church or he was fake?

You think they would have known who was going to be healed to film before the service?

they went to nigeria to expose fraudulent pastors in the first place. i was expecting them to show a blatant act fraudulent practise in the church but i saw none of that. seyi was just mesmerized at the fact that people actually come out in droves and put money in the church - which is irrelevant.

in germany, the government introduced church tax. 6-9% of the income of the church members are taxed by the government and given to the church. i am beginning to think nigeria should adopt that method. maybe then people would spare pastors and stop accusing all of them as fraudsters. mind, i am not saying most of them are not rogues - of course they are. but let's stop painting each and everyone with the same brush!

And you do not see the similarities between the frauds Derren exposed and Fireman?

no similarity!
the fraud derren exposed was a church where members are asked to fill a form. their names and addresses are taken down.
then the technical department communicate with the pastor through his ear-piece and tell the pastor what to say about any random member he chose to speak to. watch that clip again and see broad day light fraud.

derren caught him by filling a fake name and a fake address.
the pastor then called derren out - then mentioned the name derren had filled in the card which was fake.
that to me is exposing a fraudster. no gimmicks, no abracadabra. i expect seyi rhodes to have done a similar thing to pastor fireman. but he just concluded even b4 he got to nigeria that pastor fireman must be fraudulent. that to me is bullshyte!

ronkebp:
Ain't those general reasons??

general as they may appear.
90% of the women out there don't satisfy it all!

Honeycity:
this question is for the married men
what are those qualities you saw that made you proposed marriage to your wife, while you were still dating?

commitment
fidelity
trust
companionship

Sagamite:
There must be?
How?
You are the same person that made this challenge of someone else above?

nigerians don't like suffering. the moment it becomes unbearable, they jump into the next miracle centre.
these people are not forced to worship - a fact we often ignore. so what is this pastor doing to have 2000 members by the balls to drop tithes/offering every week? he is not professor peller, is he?

Now to even address your conjecture, many Nigerians, or rather millions of Nigerians go to these kind of churches since like the 90s. So according to your conjectural logic, Nigerians lives must be at a peak as "there must be a considerable progress in the lives of his congregation for them to be visiting his church".

pastor fireman did not start his church in the 90s.
whatever that has been happening before he started his own church matters not. each case must be examined individually.

So according to your conjectural logic, life is great in Nigeria amongst people that go to "fire" churches?

fireman's church has nothing to do with what has been happening to the previous churches.

So pastor na miliki, congregation is shuffering and shmiling?

he is the leader of the church. the shepherd to his sheep.
obviously, he gets the perks from the members that have been blessed by his ministry.

So how has he, as you said, performed miracles and is bettering their lives to justify the opulence he is using their money to live large on?

his miracles will be measured by the opulent life he lives.
when people see miracles, they give out to get more miracles.
that is fixed!

Really?

yes, really.
the issue of "gifts" is not clear-cut in nigeria!
majority of these members just give out cos they believe their good fortunes come as a result of the pastor's prayers and blessings.

You want to give reason why you think that is more of the case than a case of him using church funds to by that for his enjoyment and for his marketing for more mugus looking for "bettering" and "posperity" he BLATANTLY and CONNINGLY promises them?

i don't know and you don't know.
it's a possibility but i know many just give out.
you saw the man that was interviewed. when asked how much he drops as tithes/offerings, he just smiled. . . .
logic says the man drops 10% of his income in his import/export business. if we have 20 business men like him in the church, the prices of hummer jeep, range sport and x6 become negligible.

What wonders and signs?
The chimeral ones?

ask the members of the church.

The ones of secretaries pretending to be strangers that are disabled and then cured?

how did she pretend she was a stranger?
are you saying members known to the pastor cannot receive miracles because they work for the pastor?

if a pastor performs a miracle on his own son/daughter then it's fake because they are his children?
what kind of logic is this?

I think you should be the one providing me with hard evidence, financial statements, legitimate activities linked to him to show he is earning enough money to afford his lifestyle.

the burden of proof is on you.
you are the one that brought these allegations without any hard evidence because some scrupulous pastors in the past have fleeced their members. this is why i said cases should be examined individually. that a certain clifford orji was a cannibal does not make any other orji you meet a flesh eater.

Logic tells us that one can not afford a hummer on a pastors salary.

when that pastor receives gifts then it becomes tedious.
how do you know if he bought the jeep on his salary? how do you know chief nnamdi nwabueze - the igbo steel billionaire did not give him the money to buy the hummer jeep?

Logic tells us that considering a lot of Nigerian false pastors that promise "bettering" and "prosperity" we never see are living opulent lives from stolen church funds suggests he is doing the same.

until proven guilty, it's premature to think dr. fireman is fraudulent.
considering a lot of nigerians in the united kingdom are into fraud or false documents suggests you are a fraudster by default?

So it is part of "bettering" and "prosperity" that he delivered her from "demons" by deception that she was a mystery woman that came for help?

she wasn't the only he delivered. and deliverance is not even a miracle.
it happens everywhere. a fraudulent pastor would have healed her blindness or make her hear cos she was born deaf!

In the same church service, he claimed to deliver a disabled man that the BBC recording crew claimed they saw before the service working baout able? That is not shady in your world of "Bettering" and "Prosperity"?

why didn't they show the man walking about before the service? you want to believe their words just like that?
like i said earlier, the documentary was poorly produced, biased and not coordinated.

please, watch derren brown's version on how to catch fraudulent pastors.
he did his own findings. he got an actor, trained him on how to fake as a pastor and so on and forth.

then he identified a church where the pastors trick people by revealing who they are and what they do.
that is how to catch a fake pastor - not telling me i saw a man walking about before the service but he's now been delivered from his disability.

any court would ask you to prove the man was walking about before the service.
video evidence, please?

deols:
Frosbel is a bigot, no doubt! I have no problem with that. But now that he has started to spread lies, I need to call every1's attention to it.

u can ignore ds paragraph
Frosbel copies nd pastes the things he posts without verifying them.probably because he has so much trust in the people he copies from. U can there by understand why he doesnt read replies and if he does, doesnt assimilate them. If he wouldnt read replies for understanding, he cannot have a change in mind. So, he keeps working hard without any development to himself. DO u ever wonder why he has certain lines that he uses over and over again??- He simply cant reason beyond those. I was surprised to learn yeserday that he is married- what a poor woman dealing with frosbel!

errrrrr, but is this really necessary?

attack the issue, leave the personality out of it.
frosbel copies n pastes. . . .deal with that, leave frosbel n his wife out of it.

StarBoard:
Ol boy,no need to cop-out weakly.I thought you were defiant.
They won't respond to that your tired theory is because it's simply embarrassing to them to even think about using it.

intelligent chelsea fans know what went wrong - but reprobates like yourself and others who post nonsense just for the fun of it will stick to the fact that chelsea just became shyte overnight. if chelsea are so shyte like you and your co-reprobates want us to believe - why are they 4th on the table and arsenal are nowhere near them?

So you don't post the same  on different threads.No need to act sanctimonious.

i don't. it's called trolling.
you don't need to make one point and spread it in every thread to be heard.
no member is restricted to a single thread. i have said my mind on the man utd thread about the london derby and that's final.
if you are looking for simpletons like yourself, call dayokanu and start a fiesta!

The same person who tells everyone that there's nothing wrong with Chelsea everywhere you go suddenly realizes he doesn't Shyt in every toilet bowl.

what has this gotta do with the discussion.
how does this affect the price of fish? you are beginning to skip like a damaged lens of a cd player.

Quit acting like nateevs.We can only stomach one of his type on this forum

i think a roach peed in your tea this week.
your condition is getting worse by the day. so coogar is now acting like nateevs?

Sagamite:
How is he bettering the life of his congregation?

a man said people who knew him years ago would testify he used to be a pauper but things have changed.
there must be a considerable progress in the lives of his congregation for them to be visiting his church. i have never heard about fireman until i saw the documentary.

How many of them are driving hummers and 2 other cars based on his "miracle"?

i wouldn't know but i doubt all of them feed on less than £1 per day as well.
in any given community, some are rich, some are poor.

Where did he get the money to buy a hummer when his soul visible job is ministry?

it could have been a gift from members of his congregation. the issue of "gifts" in nigeria is ambiguous.

Was that a miracle? What type? Looting miracles? The same "miracle" of out millionaire public officials and politicians?

nigerians don't go to churches without signs and wonders. the narrator said his church is 2,000 members strong.
looting miracles? you have any evidence of this or what? that some pastors have looted does not mean all pastors loot. each case should be looked at separately.

How come the mystery woman he delivered from demons turned out to be his secretary?

the secretary is a member of the church. are one's secretaries immuned to deliverance?
if he wanted to be shady, he would have performed a miracle to cure her blindness, her disability or something more outlandish. he just delivered her from demons. baby christians do that on a regular. it's no biggie.

Ofido:
@colgar and lindadon ,  The issue is that if u start divorce your wife because of infidelity how many woman are u going to marry at the long run. I believe ther is a reason behind everything. A happily marrried woman in her rigth sence's can not go to the length of sleeping with another man. If it such happens then ther is a reason for that. It migth be your fault which if u hurriedly divorce her and marries another woman, u migth make that same mistake and the woman wil go outside again.

i will try and make sure i don't make a whor[i]e[/i] a housewife the second time.
lightning shouldn't strike twice.

deols:
u c. every1 can claim cool until they start to take sides. Thiefofhearts started it all But u didnt c her as starting a war.

i can only speak for myself.
and i was particularly speaking about the discussion we both had.
did i ever insult you? did i ever claim my faith is better than yours?

BetaThings:
If I were you, I would be a real gentleman and post sincerely without some underhanded abuse
The word was needless and subject to some other interpretation. Taken out, you would still have made your point

if you calling you a man is an abuse then you deserved to be abused!

BetaThings:
Who mentioned a war? You did! And of course, your view is that you should just make jest of Islam and we should cheer because you are posting peacefully. But pointing out that christians are being provocative as usual starts a religious war. Anyway I am not surprsied, why should you not twist this into a ME shooting was scenario. Christians publish fake Qur'an all the time. It is part of a religious duty - printing "peacefully"

i am not making jest of islam, you bigot!
christians are not provocative at least not on this thread until you came here with your hollow soundbites!

BetaThings:
Ok. So they should in this day and age disown a part of their faith? Any Muslim who understands Islam does not care about this day-and-age standard of Christians and the others. If Allah and His messenger tell us something, we do it. Of course, it might appear difficult, or due to little faith not do it, but we would not dissociate from it. So allow the empowered and educated woman make her decision without goading her

hilarious!
speak for yourself, don't speak for others.
you want it does not mean others do and their faith is as strong as yours or perhaps more.

BetaThings:
It is really strange how Christians tell us about how women are being forced to do things against their will when we know the truth. Deol has explained that she wears the Hijab for a reason. She appears empowered and educated enough, but I am sure that in order to respect and defend her right, she would be forced to remove the Hijab in France. Sounds like what I see here. Of course the Freanch would be prepared to defend by force of arms, if necessary, a woman's right to appear Unclad at some bitches.

this is because the wearing of hijab has been used to perpetrate mass murders in various acts of terrorism.
i support the french authorities. it was allowed before now but when terrorists used hijabs to mask their evil acts, what do u suggest?

BetaThings:
Really? [b]Ever[/b]y Chsristian?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality

Even the Church of England disagrees with you
But how come that in this day and age with your exposure, you are still carrying this "neanderthal" belief about ho.mo.s

homosexuality is perverse. church of england cannot speak for everybody.
and not all the churches in england will marry people of the same s[b]e[/b]x.
if you don't know, grab a book.

BetaThings:
Deol is not necessarily the sole judge of what you are doing. When you counter Islam with a Biblical quote, it is not just Deol that is interested.
As you can now see, your Christian folks have jumped onto the thread
And the OP's true intentions are clearer now
Your defence of the OP has been contradicted by his clear statements
The man was well educated enough before opening this thread

the op became defensive only after you came here acting like a battle-ready jihadist!
and stop saying your christian folks - i came here to have a discussion, not as a christian to convert you.

Killing of innocents? Proof please
And the war of Christians against infidels? What are the results?
You should be laughing in Mossedique of Iran
Also laugh in Abu Ghraib
Yes laugh in the inquisition
Also laugh in this
http://news.yahoo.com/soldier-admits-taking-war-trophies-denies-murder-173957917.html

lockerbie
9/11
munich 1972

those events led to the war on terrorism.
deal with it.

More innocents
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/Myl_intro.html

casualties of war.
when 2 elephants clash, the grass suffer.

My luck? What luck? To be discussing here?
And if I pushed it, Sir, what would you do?

it would surprise you.

America of course
Now let the denial start and point to me the last time that a Hindi, atheist was sworn in as president

well muslims see them as infidels and persecute their citizens.
surely, you must have seen the videos of islamists beheading americans.
so how do you expect them to take it?

Of course the whole idea begind this thread by your group (CHRISTIANS) is to ridicule Islam
It is a common past time amongs Christians on NL

for the umpteenth time, i didn't come here to ridicule anyone.
i came here to learn.

Yes, name calling is quite a religious duty in christianity
Of course a question does not have to be abusive to be leading
A court worth its salt would, ask any lawyer or peruse any book on cross-examination

and you got this theory from where?
you make me laugh when you come up with misguided rants such as this one.

Christian women have been told to keep quiet in church, not ask questions and wait until they get home to ask their husbands
Christian women have been further instructed to SUBMIT to their husbands in EVERYTHING,
They are told that they are created for their men, not men for them

really?
i am hearing this for the first time.

Are they comfortable?
In Islam we might be uncomfortable. But what do we know? We cannnot always know the ways of Allah. We trust Him and obey. If we have any problem with any situation, like Prophet Yaqoub did we complain to Allah alone (Quran 12:86)

yes, just like teenage girls have not been complaining to the media about forced marriages etc.
you must really think you are talking to dolts.
 

Patronising, isn't it?

am i being paid to patronise? why should i patronise a faceless being?

The OP is a woman who has experienced it before and need to dramatise to these unimaginative spinsters
And the only issue about polygamy is the sharing of the man's bed?

because women are naturally jealous - the op's question is a very brilliant question.

Why not some imagery about these other aspects of life/
Have you ever heard that a woman would introduce another woman to her husband?

sarah did that for abraham!
but the other woman was a slave. in this day n age, there's no slavery.
any woman married to your husband has as much as right as you have and it gets complicated.
no polygamous setting is conflict free.

And Jarus, a man, now appreciates the women sufficiently after a man drmatises the issue
Yet the spinsters who have never seen polygamy before or heard anything about it before now need the OP to properly explain it
Very kind!

jarus is married,
spinsters are unmarried.
if you cannot see the difference - go to specsavers!