₦airaland Forum

4evergod2:
All you just said is just a dance in a hoola hoop. If you say morality is subjective what happens when you take God out of the equation same way you Atheists are doing and you have absolutely free anything goes morals and you remove laws. Will you say that homosexuality or beastiality is right? And that we would still be better than animals?

I ask this because the last time I checked you Atheists claimed we evolved from Apes but how come even apes do not practice homosexuality but humans do?

If you want to make arguments make sure you know what you are talking about before you begin dishing out false information. Scientist not atheist say that humans evolved from.hominid apes. There are more theist that believe in evolution than atheist. The Catholic Church believes in evolution for example. Most ape like animals like monkeys and chimps practice homosexuality. Gets your facts right. Even with God in the question you have failed to show us how morality is objective. Which moral system as advertised by the theist should we adopt? Is it sharia? Why or why not?

KingEbukaNaija:
Hmmm

The Jewish encyclopaedia states that the real meaning is slave. Most Bible translations use the word slave as rightly translated. The JPS which is considered as the most accurate translation of the Hebrew bible uses slave.If the apologist whose work is in the OP likes he can rewrite his own bible and use employee.

KingEbukaNaija:
All these were addressed in the article

By lying that the word slave is actually supposed to mean employee or servant right? So you can beat your employee and pass them as permanent inheritance to your kids. Well done.

KingEbukaNaija:
You didn't read the article . The bible does not support slavery

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

Does this not appear in your Bible?

4evergod2:
You dont understand. Jungle days or today WHY DO WE EVEN CARE? WHY DO WE EVEN BOTHER?

Stop asking irrelevant questions. Please read their line of argument and read yours. You are just talking off point.

KingAdegoke:
morality is not in our DNA. morality is relative. subject to environment and knowledge.

if you were born as a cave man you'd have the cave man morality. if you were born in Isis territory you'd have the morality of a killer being. knowledge(environment, circumstances, education, religion etc) makes a man.

learn that.

I really do not know why he keeps shooting blanks and asking irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

4evergod2:
No I wouldnt tell you its God bro but I want to open you up to some deep thought and not just some random detest of the idea that God exists.

If you cannot explain or understand why a baby laughs when tickled and cries when in discomfort and not vice versa then how can you conclusively say there is no God?

If a baby of 1 week old can already choose to cry or laugh who then taught the baby that? Genetics cannot prove it because its not in the genes so what can?

You don't know if genetics can not explain it. You just stated it without knowing if its true.

If you claim it's God then you will have to show me that it is your version of God and not the muslim or Hindu God. You will then also have to explain why you God chose to make babies laugh when tickled and cry as soon as they come out of their mothers wombs. I bet you you can't. God did is will just be your final answer. God did it has never given any satisfying answer anywhere and at any time.

4evergod2:
Dalaman when you were born...you cried and when your mom tickled you, you laughed.

Why did you not cry when tickled and why did you not laugh when born?

Who taught you which was which as a new born baby?

I am still waiting for the answer to that question bro.

I don't know. Next thing you'll tell me that it is God that made it that way.

hopefulLandlord:
Rape wasn't always a crime in the Middle East two thousand years ago. Is that why 'do not rape' is not part of the Ten Commandments?

Back then if you rape a girl you will be forced to marry her.

KingEbukaNaija:
There is a supernatural creator and there is eternal damnation . Which is the true one ?

Both are true when it comes to Allah. He is the creator and will damn all the unbelievers eternally.

4evergod2:
Dalaman when you were born...you cried and when your mom tickled you, you laughed.

Why did you not cry when tickled and why did you not laugh when born?

Who taught you which was which as a new born baby?

Really? Are you asking me such questions.

KingEbukaNaija:
4evergod2 , Dalaman is a cantankerous human being . And will argue till death rather than admit that to the existence of a supernatural creator . The subterfuge he employs during arguments is to state Old Testament texts - Judaism - condemn reprehensible acts of Christians of the 18th and 19th century and compare Christianty to other religions .

Nothing more , nothing less . Then it becomes threadbare and soporific . Same thing yesterday , today and maybe till he gives his life back to Christ . Winner01 and I will always argue about the same thing with him in a thousand different ways .

Ok. There is a supernatural creator and his name is Allah. He sent down the Koranand revealed his perect religion whichis Islam . Accept it so that you will live according to the plans he has for you and avoid eternal damnation.

4evergod2:
Whatever religious belief or traditionalists can have their version of morals but WHY DO THEG EVEN CARE TO DO THAT? What is it that gives us this feeling that we need it..we desire it.

There is no one reason but a combination of reasons, part of it is that we want to live in harmony with our neighbors, because we seek justice, because we are subjects to those that rule over us and have to obey what ever it is they carve out as laws for us, part of itbosnthat we are rational beings and can self reflect on our actions, part of it is that we have empathy etc. There are so many reasons and factors as to why people will want to act morally or abide by already set out moral codes of conduct. Saying that God made us moral is empty since human history and anthropology has shown that humans had to teach themselves morality.

4evergod2:
You are still not getting it. The Americans who did that did so for a reason. Those reasons where their morals back then but WHY DID THEY EVEN HAVE THOSE MORALS EVEN THOUGH BY COMPARISON TO TODAYS MORALS THEY ARE SEEN AS WRONG.

WHY WHY WHY?

I am not judging right from wrong and who is and who is not I am asking about why we even care tk do what we do in the first place be they right or wrong.

Young man you need to dig and not this surface reasoning

Are you asking me why people do go or bad? I really do not know how to answer you.

4evergod2:
This is absolute proof of your lack of comprehension. I have told you on 2 occasions that I never said God is the source of moral codes which is why I kept asking you the question, " why are people searching for their own idea of morality"

I have told you repeatedly that you only see what you want to see.

If all systems and beliefs have different moral ethics why do they even have the moral ethics in the first place even when they vary and why the continuous quest for morality in all this chaos and vacuum?

You need to understand that God does not impose morality on anyone but gave a blueprint we are free to tinker with until we are satisfied enough.

This is like saying "how come women need men to reproduce and men need women to reproduce" why can we not have both men and women sharing one body? Why does one have breasts and the other doesn't and how is it that sperm is programmed to locate the egg and not something else and why would the egg shut out all other sperm cells immediately one fertilizes it...can both the egg and sperm think for themselves as creatures with a mind and brain do.

From the time of the Greeks, there have been many philosophers who have sought to prove that it is possible to have a universal morality without God. There have been many arguments presented to support this position, and in theory they may be right, depending on what one means by the word universal. They would say, all you have to have is a consensus on what is considered right and wrong behavior. Their position, with which I disagree, goes something like this:
First: If God is necessary for morality, then whatever God deems moral is moral. Therefore, why praise God for what He has done if He could have just as likely done the opposite, and it would have been equally moral. If whatever God says goes, then if God decreed that adultery was permissible, then adultery would be permissible. If things are neither right nor wrong independently of God's will, then God cannot choose one thing over another because it is right. Thus, if He does choose one over another, His choice must be arbitrary. But a being whose decisions are arbitrary is not worthy of worship.

Second: If goodness is a defining attribute of God, then God cannot be used to define goodness. If we do so, we are guilty of circular reasoning. That is, if we use goodness to define God, we can't also use God to define goodness.

Third: If one doesn't believe in God, being told that one must do as God commands will not help one solve any moral dilemmas.

Some philosophers, therefore, come to the following conclusion: the idea that a moral law requires a divine lawgiver is untenable.

What should be our response as Christians? We should point out to people who side with the preceding position their lack of understanding concerning both God and the nature of man.

God is the creator and sustainer of all things. We would not even be self aware, let alone aware of right and wrong, if God had not created within us His image, and therefore the ability to make moral distinctions. The truth is we have no reference point for all this discussion about morality except as God reveals it. For us to argue with the source of morality is for the clay to argue with the potter.

Some philosophers say that for God to define what is right or wrong is arbitrary. God is not arbitrary; He is the source of all life and therefore the source of all truth. We have no basis to even understand the concept of being arbitrary except in reference to an unchanging God. That which would be circular reasoning or arbitrary in discussions about ourselves comes into perfect focus as we bring the dilemma close to the universal, absolute focal point for all creation, God Himself.

The second problem with these arguments is that they fail to recognize the nature of man. If man were not fallen, i.e., not corrupted by sin, we would have limitless potential to create from within ourselves a universal moral code. But, we are a fallen lot, every last one of us, and therefore incapable of fully knowing what is good (Rom. 3:23). We are even incapable of carrying out what we do know to be good (Rom. 7:18-21).

So the question of right or wrong has everything to do with the origin of our belief, not just the substance of it. No matter how sincerely I believe I am right about some moral decision, the true test is in the origin of that belief. And God is the only universal and absolute origin to all morality

Is morality located only in the actions we see? If so, it will be very difficult to recognise the distinctive features of the moral vision of a Christian or the moral vision of a Hindu, Buddhist, Jew or Muslim. If we view morality in relation to the person as a whole, rather than just as the actions we see, however, then moral vision becomes more significant. What a person does will no longer be separated from why (s)he does it.

Stop copying and pasting christians apologetic materials mindlessly without studying to see if they agree with the reality around you. I have told you that the Christian God is not the only God people believe in. About 70 percent of the world's population today does NOT believe in the Christian God. They believe in other Gods while others believe in no God's at all. But everybody strives to live in a moral and just society according to what ever they feel is moral or just for them. Saying that human beings are falling creatures as you have stated is empty and baseless christian mythology. 70 percent of the world's population do not believe that humans are fallen creatures. Saying that your God is the foundation of human morality is demonstrably false, because a majority of the world's population does not believe in your God and see their own God's as the foundation of whatever moral concept they chose to live by. I have been stating reality while you have been parroting your religuous dogma and make belief blindy. I can also parrot dogma and say that the sharia moral system is the only system of morality that the creator of humans passed down to us. That's what over 1.7 billion muslims say and it is true. Prove me wrong and show me that Allah did not pass down the sharia system as the best system for us as humans to Iive by.

Touchnot01:
I'm sorry, but i think you've disgraced yourself enough on this thread.

If you lived and grew up in a society that accepts and practices beastiality you will not see any thing wrong with it. That is the reality of the matter.

The pictures below shows how Americans were living in 1801 just about 200 years ago. At that time lynching of black people was allowed and the people saw nothing wrong with it. They happily took pictures and posed with of the corpse of lynched black people. They even gathered together with their kids to take pictures with the corpse of lynched black men . These are just normal white Americans of that time who were mostly christians. They didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing because it was acceptable and even promoted by the society in which they lived in.

4evergod2:
So with all the ways I tried explaining the crux of my question you still did not get it?

Ok let me ask you like I would ask my little kid , perhaps you would understand it then.


If I asked you to make sure a light bulb lights up and the switch is automatically designed to switch on and off would that switch light up the bulb in itself?

What I am asking you is like asking someone, " what causes you to breathe? Is it because tou suck in air through your nose that causes your lungs to expand and contract? Or do your lungs function even if you had no nose?

I thought you were smart but I guess you aren't. If you were smart then you would have realised that there ca be no Chicken without an egg and no egg without a chicken.

God has a huge sense of humour and you Atheists are here to give God and us some comic relief.

Actually the joke is on you. You are just trying to tell me that God is the source of human morality but you have failed to show us how. Which God is the source of human morality among the many different God that we have? Why are there different set of moral codes? Why do some people see somethings as right and other see the same things as wrong if God is the source of human morality. I always give example with the Islamic sharia system. Muslims believe that the sharia system of morality is the best moral system that was given to Human beings by God himself. Do you agree to that? Why or why not? Did God really create the Sharia system and handed it over to humans as claimed by over 1.7 billion muslims? If sharia wasn't created by God as muslims claim then who created it?

There are tens of millions of Hindus that believe in the caste system of living. They happily accept it as a divine system of living that is ideal for humans as directed by their Gods. Is the caste system divine? Why or why not? And if it is not divine then who created it.

I have just given you two moral systems that I know you find abhorrent which the adherents claim were divinely inspired. Saying that God is the source of human morality is false because you haven't demonstrated it to be true. You are just stating it. Remember that there are many Gods and many different religions with very different moral codes of conduct that also claim that they got it from their own various Gods.

KingEbukaNaija:
The question again :

And if there is a law in a country supporting sexual acts with children , you'll allow a full grown man to molest your daughter because it is right according to the law , right ? Dalaman , I need your response yes or no ?

Your God and his chosen men went around capturing children and forcing them into marriage according to the bible. It's all there in the bible. Even with your God and the elusive superior morality you are claiming child marriage was still practiced and allowed.

KingEbukaNaija:
The question again :

And if there is a law in a country supporting sexual acts with children , you'll allow a full grown man to molest your daughter because it is right according to the law , right ? Dalaman , I need your response yes or no ?

There are already such laws in Nigeria and people already are doing it. Child marriage is acceptable in the very Nigeria you live in that's if you are living in the Northern part of Nigeria.

4evergod2:
The guy has taken a voluntary retreat. The grilling no be here. Simple quesrions he is just jumping around like someone on hot coals

All laws are man made. If you grow up in such a society you will see nothing wrong with that. After all many muslims practice child marriage in the very Nigeria that we live in.

KingEbukaNaija:
And if there is a law in a country supporting sexual acts with children , you'll allow a full grown man to molest your daughter because it is right according to the law , right ? Dalaman , I need your response yes or no ?

Why slavery was acceptable your God was advising people to sell their daughters into slavery. When people were brutal m your God was tellingbthem to stone their disobedient children to death.

KingEbukaNaija:
According to the atheist , anyone can choose to see something as wrong or right . There is no paradigm and its arbitrary . Its now a matter of choice . Thats why they can sleep with animals , dead people , little girls , same sex and feel no guilt whatsoever .

Its not according to atheist but the reality. Is there a universal accepted morality anywhere? Atheist can't do what ever they want because they are a part of a society and it is the society that makes the laws. No matter how much you deny it you can not show anu thing apart from the fact that it is the society that makes laws and chose moral codes of conduct.

KingEbukaNaija:
And if there is a law supporting sexual acts with children , you'll allow a full grown man to molest your daughter because it is right according to the law , right ? Dalaman , I need your response yes or no ?

I am putting it to you that if you are an extremist muslim that wholeheartedly believes and wants to practice the sunnah of the prophet. You will not only allow a man to marry and sleep with you child. You will also marry a child.

4evergod2:
You still dey drag this matter? You never answer question number one u dey jump go question 100.

Laws are made on what basis? Moral ethics prevalent in that region?

If true, who judges right from wrong? How do we know whats right from whats wrong even though such positions may vary from place to place? How come we have the ability to choose right or wrong?

Make I speak am for broken in case you ni grab still.

How one person take sabi say na in way sure pass the other one? Even you we no gree say God dey wetin make you fit know say God no dey or werin make u fit know say you fit even decide to change your mind? Shey na because we come from monkey abi na say na monkey teach us as e be say na dem be our great great grand parents.

How do you know what is right or wrong? Your society teaches you what is right and what is wrong. If you grow up in Sweden you will grow up accepting homosexuality to be right and frowning at polygamy but if you grow up in northern Nigeria as a nuslim you will grow up frowning at homosexuality and accepting polygamy as right. Who tought you what is right or wrong apart from your society (parents, teachers, relatives, law enforcement officers etc)

KingEbukaNaija:
And if there is a law supporting sexual acts with children , you'll allow a full grown man to molest your daughter because it is right according to the law , right ? Dalaman , I need your response yes or no ?

Muslims are already practicing child marriage in accordance with the sunnah of the prophet. Go and ask them if they are doing the wrong thing. A senator in Nigeria married a 12 years old girl and was happily telling people he did the right thing on national TV.

KingEbukaNaija:
Just today I learnt that Dalaman will permit his son to commit sexual acts with an animal if they lived in Canada .


And this is coming from someone who spends his lifetime talking about a God that does not exist ? And fighting Christians day and night ? Why are you obsessed with Christians and a non existent God . My brother it can be detrimental ... an advice .. please get out of the religion section

When slavery was allowed the people that brought this christianity to your grandparents were slave traders. Many muslims have no problem marrying kids because their religion permits it. Law's are made by men and varies from place to place. Whether you accept it or not remains your business. After all when slavery was acceptable to the ancients your God was even encouraging them to sell their daughters into slavery.

UyiIredia:
Why u dey ask am. When the obvious answer is that he will. Because as a a moral subjectivist he believes that society determines morals.

Who determines morality if not society? Even the morality you claim I'd from God was created by the Jewish society.

KingEbukaNaija:
It is wrong to have sexual acts with animals - that's what God says . Anyone who disobeys or is recalcitrant is thrown into Hell . An atheist needs the society to tell him what is wrong or right . Apparently , you'll let your son perform sexual acts with animals if he were in Canada .

Which God says that it is not right to sleep with animals? The God in which your society believes in right? Some ancient Gods do not frown on beastiality. As such some small tribal societies practiced it. Your God is not the only God that people believe in. And what ever it is that came from your God was first formulated by human beings liken you who then used that God idea as an enforcing mechanism. That is the reality of the matter. If

And if there is a law supporting sexual acts with children , you'll allow a full grown man to molest your daughter because it is right according to the law , right ? Dalaman , I need your response yes or no ?

There are many Muslims that happily give out there children in marriage to adults in accordance to the life of the prophet. The marriage act law failed to pass in the national assembly because muslims refuse to accept age 18 as the age of consent. They all claimed that Islamically there is no age of consent. People can marry ladies once they start having their periods regardless of how old they are. Many muslims see nothing wrong in marrying 12 years old kids.

KingEbukaNaija:
[size=18pt]North Korea's president , an atheist , sleeps with 13 year old children and coerce them into years of sexual servitude . They must be subservient to his pleas for sexual gratification . [/size]

My brother don't run mad oo. Do you know a man called Prophet Mohammed? He married a 6 years old girl and consummated the marriage when she was 9 years old. He was a caravan robber and a warlord but about 1.7 billion muslims swear that he was the greatest man that ever lived on earth, insulting him alone can get you killed by them because of how much they love and revere him. They love him more than they love their parents, siblings or spouses. So much so that they can kill you for insulting him. Who is Kim Jun Un when about 1.7 billion people claim that a man that married a 6 years old and had sexual slaves is the greatest man that ever lived and many of them will kill you for insulting him.

KingEbukaNaija:
Savages - atheists - are having nights of passion with animals

This is actually false. Many theist practice beastiality probably more than atheist.

4everGod1:
Again you miss it. Its not about individual moral codes its about WHY ITS EVEN DESIRED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

WHY WHY WHY?

Order has nothing to do with it because even as gorillas whom you guys claim we evolved from have a moral code. Was it genetically encoded? No it wasnt so how come we all want our own version of it even when we do not accept each others.

Why is morality desired? You tell me.

KingEbukaNaija:
Mehn , Im disappointed . Honestly .

Do I care? You aren't a more moral person than me so why should I care about what you feel about reality. That you don't like the reality of how things are is your own business and not mine. I know people that will happily kill gays and will consider and body that supports gays to be of the devil. But how does that affect the reality that humans are the ones that chose to accept or criminalize homosexuality? Am dealing with facts while you are only dealing with silly emotions.

4everGod1:
Nay brother Atheists are worse than savages. At least savages live by self made rules as he said but Atheist just do as they please.

Who are the atheist that do as they please? Read your own bible and see savagery looking at you face to face.