₦airaland Forum

KingEbukaNaija:
cc : winner01 , ireorony , UyiIredia , Ishilove , Scholar8200


Winner01 , we joked about this yesterday and this man said he'll allow his kid to go sleep with animals because the Canadian law says so .

Don't get all emotional on me please by claiming some high sense of.morality that doesn't exist anywhere. When slavery was allowed in the USA hope you know that all the people practiced it and the Christian religious leaders were some the highest justifiers and owners of slaves? Morality is not universal that you think something is right for you doesn't make it right for the next person. After all you guys go about justifying all the genocide in the OT as God's judgement on the people so that you can sleep well at night.

4everGod1:
So if in one of the right ups you calldd romans savages and now you say they went about teaching people their own morality, how come the morality we have today isnt savage?

Our moral codes of conduct are savagely even to some of us. I was trying to explain polygamy to German friend of mine like 2 years ago. She just could not understand it. She felt it was the highest form of injustice ever for a man to have two wives legally. She was so bitter about it. Why? Because she grew up in a society that frowns against it. Many ladies in Africa and some other parts of the world see polygamy as a very good thing. Some also see what others practice as savagely while others see what we practice as savagely as well. There is no standard or universally accepted morality.

4everGod1:
This takes me back to question one.


HOW DID MAN KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHAOS AND ORDER?

If you say they taught themselves again then you are a liar

Because chaos and order had direct impact on man and his life. Ok who taught man the difference between chaos and order? Are you saying it's God ? If it is God then why don't all men see the same things as chaotic or order?

KingEbukaNaija:
So dalaman , if your child were Canadian and you live in Canada , you will let your child have a sexual relationship with an animal -bestiality - simply because it is right in Canada . Right ?

I can't stop my child from practicing beastiality if he wants to assuming it is allowed in the society where we are living. You too can not force your own child not to do it because if he reports you the authority will punish you for infringing on his right. When slavery was Ok almost all the people owned slaves in America.

4everGod1:
I am not talking about a universal morality. Atheists do not believe in God or any god for that matter or even any higher power.

My question is why the interest in any form of morality at all even if there are different gods.

So that you'll live in a less chaotic society.

4everGod1:
So if you agree that if you were raised to believe that and wouldnt stray from that belief why then do you believe that savage man taught himself morals when he had nothing else to compare it to?

Do u see why I said u are going round in circles?

The savage man was thought to change his ways by others. In some cases he thought himself. Let's take the issue of killing of twins that was practiced here in Nigeria by some tribes. When they invading slave traders came. They thought the people that were practicing it to stop it. In some cases they forced them to stop the practice. The Romans as they went about conquering the world made the people to accept the Roman way and culture which also includes their moral codes of conduct.

4everGod1:
You are still missing the point entirely and going round in circles.

If homosexuality is acceptable in other places and not in others how did they arrive at each others conclussion?

They both want some form of order so why do they seek this yet defer in laws and acceptance of behaviour?

One feels his idea of right or wrong is better than the other but at the end of the day theg still have right and wrong in other areas independent of location. So how is it that they have moral ideals in the first place

There is no universal morality. It doesn't exist anywhere. People create moral systems for different reasons. There are different Gods, different religions, different cultures and different people. People have to chose and formulate which moral codes to live by. The same people also have to refine and change the same set of codes as they move on. No God is the source of human morality because there are different Gods and different religions.

KingEbukaNaija:
So Dalaman , if you were raising your kid in China , you'll be comfortable with your child telling lies and stealing ? And will even adjure him to do so because it is to promote the interest of the state and is good for business ? Right ?

If I was raised to believe that then why not. I we watching a program on TV last year where some men in Saudi Arabia were discussing the issue of women not driving and working. They were so empathic about it and they truly believed that women shouldn't drive and work because they were raised that way. They truly believed it was wrong for women to drive and work. Even some of the women believed it was wrong for them to drive and work outside the home.

KingEbukaNaija:
Homosexuality is wrong because God says so . Dalaman , are you saying the societal laws determine what's right or wrong ?

Which God? There are Gods that people worship that have no position on homosexuality or do not see it as wrong. For example some Hindu goods do not see it as wrong. Remember your God is not the only God that people believe in and worship. Societal laws determine what is right and wrong that is why no matter how you think polygamy is right you can't practice it in Sweden for example m and as a Swede no matter how right you feel homosexuality is you can practice it in Uganda.

KingEbukaNaija:
Then there is no such thing as right or wrong - this is what deduced . Am I right to make such ?

There is right and wrong based on what people chose. Is homosexuality right or wrong? To a Nigerian living in Nigeria it is wrong but to a person living in England or Switzerland it isn't wrong. Why is that so?

4everGod1:
You said men criminalized such savage actd but u fail to answer how did they even know what was criminal and what wasnt?

Who gave them such a noble blueprint? What is criminal in some areas isnt in others because morality isnt the same everywhere but to those whose laws favour gays and those whose law dont what makes one think being gay is right while another says its a crime?

Thats my point. What is the root of morality?

Man is the root of morality because he chose what ever system or set of moral codes to live by. If God is the source of human morality then why don't all moral codes come about the same way? Why don't people all see things the same way if God is the source of human morality? Why do some people see somethings as bad and others see it as God at the same time using God to justify it? People just use God and their religion to enforce what ever system of morality they chose for themselves.

KingEbukaNaija:
This is not true . Who told you corruption is not beneficial to some people ? Or lying or stealing ? Even probity has been proven not to be beneficial to some people . E.g In the Asian world of business , it is acceptable to lie , because of the high financial gain . People lie and steal to get what they want . Taking the lives of guilty rapists would bring pain and sorrow to the family of the deceased .

You are just making assumptions - there is nothing copacetic about this response . ]

That's why I said morality varies from.place to place. In many societies like China stealing to promote the interest of the state is not seen as a bad thing. It is Infact encouraged. Paying bribes was once encouraged in the Americancooperate world to get acess to markets in other parts of the world. Morality is fluid it is not set in stone.

This does not explain how man could decipher what's wrong or right . You are just stating reprehension acts done throughout history .

Man is the one that has to bear the burden of living in a chaotic society, as such he is the one that must determine what right or wrong moral code he wants to live by. It is not all moral codes that are formulated to the benefit of the people. Some are just formulated to benefit the powers that be and protect their interest. That is why moral codes of conduct vary from society to society and time in history. But the general fact is that men formulated all these moral codes of conduct they chose to live by.

4everGod1:
You are just going round in circles. People formulated moral codes of conduct? How? Who showed them right morals from wrong? How did they even know where to start from?

Who else but men themselves. For example who showed men that women deserve equal rights as them? Men showed themselves and thought themselves that. Who showed the modern man not to criminalize gays and accept them? He showed himself. Men must teach themselves what ever moral code of conduct they chose to live by.

KingEbukaNaija:
Dalaman , people still live like this even now , in this time . Should we call them savages ?

The difference between now and then is that we have criminalized most of these behaviors as bad. Back in the days they weren't criminal acts. Over time people learned to criminalize these acts and punish offenders because they needed to live in a stable and less chaotic society.

4everGod1:
You are missing the point entirely. According to your write up that was their morality right? Even then they had a system of right and wrong even though it is ar variance with ours today but they had their own system of right and wrong.

The question is how could savages reflect on anything or change from being savages if they enjoyed that order and were born into it? How did they do a u turn for something else?

They say lions are savage beasts and it is known that when a lion takes over the territory of another lion, it would eat the baby lions from the other king of the pride so it would start a fresh generation using its own genes. This has been hotwired into them and has never changed as they have no reason to see it as wrong since they cannot reason past that. So how could human savages reason past theirs if indeed we once were savages.

Humans have the ability to self reflect on their actions. We have the ability to put ourselves in the shoes of others. Read the words of the abolitionist and the cases they made against slavery. Just 500 years ago people didn't see slavery as a bad thing. The few that dI'd were able to convince the majority that it was a bad thing. You don't even have to go far. We have taught ourselves to give our women the same right as we men over time because of our ability to reason and self reflect. We have moved past that now and in this modern times we are even talking of animal rights. Now in our world today most advanced society do not see homosexuality as wrong. We have now come to reason that people can chose to love who ever they want. Morality isn't set in stone. It must be learned and it is constantly evolving.

4everGod1:
So if we started as savages as you say this men we were once mindless and behaved like beasts right?

So how come the same beasts suddenly knew what chaos and order is and suddenly desired structure. How were they able to become rational and know right from wrong and good from bad?

What is the origin of these judgements? If you know pls share with us along with proof and not some random quote.

They used reason to fashion these things out. It's a fact that mean lived as savages before. During the time of Jesus Israel was under occupation by the Romans. They Romans could do anything they wanted. They can grab any land they want and kill off all the people if they fail to obey them with impunity. Now no country can do that. No country can invade another without cause or reason.

If you kill my own I will definitely want to revenge. If we go about killing each other we will both lose out. If I steal what is yours you will want to steal from another person or steal from me. If we continued like that our society will be in chaos.

People formulating moral.codes of conduct because they wanted to avoid chaos. Even in the bible you will see some moral evolution. Abraham the founder of the faith was an incestuous man. He married his sister. Besides that he could sleep with his female slaves. Child sacrifice was allowed because he wanted to sacrifice his son Issac. The people lived like savages, they could invade their neighbors because their neighbors worshiped other Gods. They stoned their disobedient children to death. They married many wives and had many concubines. They enslaved each other freely. They killed gays. An eye for an eye no forgiveness. They were very brutal but over time things kept changing. In Africa it was the same. The people that lived 3000 years ago were very brutal. They weren't like us. Just 400 years ago all the blacks living in the USA were slaves. But today a black man is the president of the USA.

KingEbukaNaija:
How was he able to decide what is right or wrong ? Or was it arbitrary ?

Man has the ability to self reflect on his actions. Most times he chooses what benefits him and causes less harm as good and what causes pain and sorrow as bad.

There is no proof to this . I do not remember starting as a savage . WTF . Are you ok at all ?

We came from people that sacrificed and buried their kids alive to their various Gods for rain for example. Even the marriage institution developed over time. Back in the days living outside the walls of your city will get you killed of seen or found by the members of another tribe. People were so brutal back then that they lived in walled cities. You dear no go outside the city wall alone. Women had no rights at all. They were considered as chattel. The strong did what they could. Lands were invaded and people enslaved with impunity. Land grab wasn't considered a bad thing. Slavery wasn't considered a bad thing.

Killing people and sacrificing them to appease the God's was the order of the day. There was no education, those that were strong did what ever they wanted. But it came at a cost so people learned to refine their behavior and formulated moral codes of conduct through consensus. Some used their God's as enforcing mechanism etc.

Morality must be learned. People thought themselves that stealing and grabbing people's lands was wrong. Raping peoples children was wrong etc. If you read the bible you will see where Moses sent down the 10 commandents detailing the right and wrong things to do.

4everGod1:
God is not mocked. He does what he wants how he wants. I guess the ability a lizard has to regrow its tail and we evolved from such creatures why did we not borrow such an important survival tool from the lizard so we can regrow limbs?
God left blanks in a lot of things deliberately because of people like you.

No you are trying to sell to me an incredible tale. We've heard of God raising people from the dead. Healing people of cancer and all sort of miracles. We just want clear cut miracles that can never be faked an example is the restoration of the limbs of an amputee. So far no God has been able to do that. Why is it that no God can perform a clear cut miracle?

KingEbukaNaija:
Why did man create morality ? Why did man decipher what is right or wrong ?

To help him live in a less chaotic society. Remember we started out as savages before we go to where we are right now.

4everGod1:
Dalaman I once prayed for woman who was admitted in Golden Cross hospital 22 road festac town. She was admitted and scheduled for a fibroid surgery. Her fibroid was as big as fists.

We prayed for her and her fibroid which could be felt before simply VANISHED. A stomach you couldnt touch without her screaming in pain she was now pushing it in with her own hands and shouting its gone its gone.

Even the nurses confirmed it. She was discharged same day by the doctor who also could not explain what happened.

I guess I did the surgery or the doctor did.

Another incredible tale. If fibroid can disappear through prayers then amputated limbs should also be restored through prayers. My friend has an amputated arm , should I bring him for prayers and restoration of his limbs?

KingEbukaNaija:
The Jews trace their ancestry to Abraham - he was the progenitor of the Jewish race .

Even Abraham traces his ancestry to Adam.

KingEbukaNaija:
Those are English names ! When will stop being ignorant !

Adam- Adamah

Eve- Chawwah

Cain - Kayin

Seth - Sheth

Abel - Hevel

Everyone's ancestry is traced down to Adam and Eve

Adam and Eve story as found in the Bible originated from the Jews. The english bible was translated as such the names of the people was also translated. Even the name Jesus is a translation. Everybody knows that. The original names are Jewish names wsas my point.

Yorubas trace their ancestry to Oduduwa. The Mayans trace theirs to some other figure. Jews trace theirs to Adam and Eve. Don't go and trace your ancestry be there trying to trace yours to Jews. Are you a Jew?

analice107:
Not long ago. He did a surgery on me by Himself.
Man, stop being so bitter. Who did this to you?

Ohh really! Stop telling lies.

analice107:
Oh Wow. Did he just ask if we have ever seen any God responding to any atheist?
Wow, this guy. Are you this slow?

You believe in a God that can do anything. When last did you see your God do anything by itself?

KingEbukaNaija:
Nature and its constituents are designed ... simple !

What are viruses designed for? What about earthquakes and hurricanes? What were they designed for?

4everGod1:
The Source of morality is something NO SCIENTIST and NO ATHEIST can explain or prove because its not found in Genetics or even an Atom. Its not tangible. Its not practical.
IT JUST EXISTS! BUT HOW?

How is it possible that a human can tell right from wrong? How is it possible that we can even have emotions? Are they genetically encoded?

Therein is the dilemma and their nemesis.

Cc seun
Dalaman aka Jesusman

Morality is a creation of man that is why it has always been evolving and varies from society to society. People didn't live the same way we are living 20,000 years ago for example. Back then, they lived like savages. Even during the time of Jesus people weren't living like the waty we are living today. Back then women had no rights for example. Study human anthropology and moral evolution. Necessity and the need to live in a less chaotic society is what necessitate the formulation of moral laws of conduct. If humans are born with any natural moral law in them, then parents won't spend a lot of their time teaching their kids the difference between right and wrong. But parents have to do that which shows that children aren't born with any sense of morality. They grow and are thought about what ever moral code of conduct their society accepts.

winner01:
You have changed the point of OP's argument totally when you saw that it is not disproveable.

The Op's simply stated that slaves were treated far better than our idea of pre-21st century slaves. And gave facts to support it.

The Op rightfully stated that slaves are to be called bondservants or maids as agreed by the jewish encyclopaedia because they had incredible constitutional rights.

OP was simply trying to tell lies. OP tried to say that selling people into bondage was not allowed. He even went as far as saying the word translated as slave was wrong. It was supposed to be translated as an employee or a servant. That is a lie. As shown by the Jewish encyclopaedia selling people into bondage was also allowed. The slavery varies and so was the treatment of slaves. Jews are to be treated differently from gentiles. OP never touched on that.

I highlighted a fraction of these constitutional rights even when you deliberately omitted them to make it look as if they were no better than animals.

The Bible however retains its credibility and still translates them as slaves even though they were treated better than slaves.

How can a slave be treated better than a slave? They were properties and could be inherited. They could be beaten and branded. They had no right to own any property. They weren't paid any wages. Their kids were also owned by their masters, so what exactly are you saying? That you are even trying to justify it by equating it to the modern house maid or a football contract is pitiful and idiotic.

God permitted several things and still permits things even though we as his creations might not be fully content with it.
The existence of evil is one of such and so what?
God permitted the death of Jesus and so what?
God is God either your child has downs syndrome or not.
Your attacks will not change who God is.

God permitting evil is your own making. You have to show me the God first and him permitting evil for me to take you seriously. If there is a God that allows evil to flourish then that God will tell people about it himself. He will never rely on you to tell people about it's intentions. I have told you that many many times. Only a God that lives inside your head will do that.

And stop cursing me, im not used to living with hatred and agony. I have lovely people around me and we share love together. If you have never experienced love, it is not my fault. I'm not responsible for your misfortunes.

I dont have your time now, just wait till evening.

I am not cursing you. I am just stating the fact. Any body that feels it's right to justify slavery is a fool period.

winner01:
Stop cursing me, it wont solve your personal problems. You and your wife having a house help is a criminal offense except contractual agreements are reached. Its similar to what happened in the Hebrew society. The hebrew government knew there were animals just like you in human clothing, and so it gave directions as to the penalties for maltreating and mistreating bondmen and maids.

I won't stop calling you a fool so long as you are trying to justify slavery. Any body that can not come out and say that owing slaves is a bad thing remains a fool. Just as you are. Owning a house help is nothing compared to the slavery that occurred during biblical times you idiot. A house help is not and can never be bought or sold. A house help can not be inherited as property. A house help can not be beaten or branded. A house help can leave anytime the house help wants. A house help can own properties and live freely. That you are trying to compare a house help to a slave shows how sick and twisted your mind is. That you are trying to justify slavery also shows what a pathetic human being you are. Slavery is wrong end of story. Just accept that it is wrong and stop trying to defend the ancients who didn't know any better. But because these ancient savages are your God what ever it is they wrote down regardless of how wrong must be defended. Later fools like you will come and be telling us about some elusive love that you can not even show to yourselves.

No, the rights to the following: (as supported by the jewish encyclopaedia)

[b]- The duty of treating the Hebrew servant and handmaid otherwise than as slaves.
- denouncement of the permanent enslavement of Hebrew men and women by their masters as the gravest of national sins.
- The court's verdict that a man may sell himself (Lev. xxv. 39) because of extreme poverty, after all his means are exhausted; he should not sell himself as long as any means are left to him.
- The Law limiting the absolute power of the master.
- The Law's defense, discharge and vengeance of a bond man or maid who unfortunately happens to be maltreated under under a master
- The Law which make them an integral part of the community.
- The Law which treats them no less than a citizen; Bond men are to be circumcised (Gen. xvii. 27; Ex. xii. 44), and when circumcised are to be admitted to eat of the Passover meal (ib.). Likewise the bondmen or bondwomen of a priest may eat of his holy meats (Lev. xxii. 11).
- The Law which requires bondmen nor bondwomen are to rest on the Sabbath (Ex. xx. 10); indeed, the opportunity for the "son of thy handmaid" to have a "breathing-space" (A. V. "may be refreshed"wink is mentioned as one of the great motives for the institution of the Sabbath (Ex. xxiii. 12).
- The law which permitss a bond maid to get married to a master, and thus placing her on the same footing as any freewoman in Israel. [/b] Amongst others.


I could give several other rights from the Jewish encyclopaedia, that proves that they were to be treated as maids and servants, rather than as a slave.
The isrealites were a people under the Law and as such God permitted some established laws. If the Bible was as mischievious as you are, it would have removed these historical facts. But it reports them and centuries later, you are here fighting it like your problems.

You do not need to curse, some of us were raised with love and peace. Do not impose your viperous nature on people. Got get some love from your wife.

Are these what you call rights? .

What about the right for them to be inherited and passed over to kids as property? You shamelessly omitted that right? What about the right to be beaten as long as they do not miss their body parts like arms or eyes? Even if they lose their body parts they are to be set free. What kind of right is that? You didn't mention that one. What about the right to be wedded of or serve as concubine to their masters? I didn't see you mention that one. Did you shamelessly forget that right as well? The right which see to it that they own no property nko? Did you forget to mention that one? You are a fool for justifying slavery. Take the elusive love you talk about and shove it up your behind. You are here justifying slavery and the next second you are talking about some elusive love that you can not give. I have told you on the other thread that you can not give what you do not have. When we see you guys showing love to each other in your various churches then we will begin to take you guys seriously. You can keep talking about love but we all know the reality, after all muslims are always telling us that Islam is a religion of peace.

winner01:
I only used the messi analogy so you can grab what contractual agreement between two parties actually mean. I know you are intellectually weak, i had to use something you could relate with.

With contractual agreement are you talking about? Slavery is wrong period. That you are supporting or trying to justify it only shows what a sorry of a human being you are.

Were the slaves under government sanctioned contract or not?
Were there terms and agreements laid out by the government in owning slaves or not?

What has government contract got to do with the fact that it was sanctioned and decreed by their God himself according to the story? Is this your pitiful escape tactics?

When they were sold as slaves. Was there a properly laid out mutual agreement between the two parties or not.

Slaves had incredible rights and protection by the government, and thats my point. The Jewish encyclopaedia you stupidly quoted has exposed your ignorance.

Which rights? The rights to be inherited as properties? Or the right to be beating as long as they aren't servely injured to the extent of losing their eyes or other body parts? They aren't allowed to own properties. So which rights are you talking about ? Where they allowed to live freely? What the hell are you talking about you sick human being? Stupid justifier of slavery.

winner01:
Don't worry, I can feel your pain. The Hebrew society was a totalitarian state. It did not seperate God and state.

The Jewish encyclopaedia you hurriedly quoted without using your brains agrees on these governmental laws:

[b] The duty of treating the Hebrew servant and handmaid otherwise than as slaves, and above all their retention in service for a limited time only, was deemed by the lawgiver of such importance that the subject was put next to the Decalogue at the very head of civil legislation (Ex. xxi. 2-11). It is treated in its legal bearings also (Lev. xxv. 39-54; Deut. xv. 12-18). The prophet Jeremiah (Jer. xxxiv. 8-24) denounces the permanent enslavement of Hebrew men and women by their masters as the gravest of national sins, for which the kingdom of Judah forfeits all claim to God's mercy, and justly sinks into ruin and exile.

Also In Rabbinical Literature:The Hebrew servant referred to in the Torah is of two classes: (1) he whom the court has sold without his consent; and (2) he who has willingly sold himself. The court may sell a man for theft only, as noted above. A man may sell himself (Lev. xxv. 39) because of extreme poverty, after all his means are exhausted; he should not sell himself as long as any means are left to him. He should not sell himself to a woman, nor to a convert, nor to a Gentile. Should he do so, however, even if he sells himself to a heathen temple, the sale is valid; but it then becomes the duty not only of his kinsmen, but of all Israelites, to redeem him, lest he become "swallowed up" in heathendom. The sale of a Hebrew into bondage should be made privately, not from an auction-block, nor even from the sidewalk, where other slaves are sold.
[/b]


Also, According to the maimonides 'Yad ha-Hazakah, also drawn from the Jewish encyclopaedia, It agrees that: The court consented to the selling of slaves thereby providing them certain legal rights and responsibilities.

Now does your wife take your househelp to court to sign an agreement before using her?

Thats why the op agreed, these ones cannot be compared to the african slaves of old.

Who was the law giver that permitted them to sell each other into bondage, own slaves, pass the slaves as inheritance to their kids, brand them, beat them so long as they don't servely injure or kill them, sleep with them etc It was Yahweh their God. So what exactly are you crying blue murder for?

winner01:
Criminal! Take your househelp to court as the hebrews did and tell them that you want them to them to draft out an agreement so that you can use her.

What is this fool on about? My housemaid is not my slave. I can not have sex with her the way the ancient Hebrews did with their slaves. You should be ashamed of yourself. You are a pathetic human being. See you trying to justify madness all in the name of religion.

winner01:
Were the slaves under government contract or not?

And does your house help have the elevated contracts i mentioned earlier?

Which government contract? Is that the new excuse you want to use to run away from what you've been defending since? I notice that once your stupidity has been exposed you look for the easiest and silliest of ways to run away. The slavery laws were dictated by Yahweh himself. So which government contract are you foolishly talking about again? Which government did they have apart from the one of Yahweh and the prophets he speaks through? Keep deluding your self.