₦airaland Forum

Toyolad:
don't think they will quote their holy book by way of giving u explanations? it all boils down to giving explanations that are beyond reason but taken to be true not because of an indubitable proof but by faith which can neither be proven right nor wrong cos they are said to be revealed knowledge.... what more can I say then..

I don't take Christians seriously when it comes to the issue of creation, they have so far refused to accept the way this God of theirs said he created the universe as written inside the bible because they know it is false, they just take part of it and run wild with it. They will tell you that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, but they will refuse to accept the other detailed explanation of how their God claimed he created the universe in 6 days and rested on the 7th day. They say its an allegory or will completely change what was written and give you their own opinion as against what was written because they know that what was written down is false, they claim God, refuse to use God in explaining how things were created, refuse to accept the way that God said he created the universe but still keep shouting God created only because they do not know how things came to be, how foolish and stupid can one be when he/she makes such inane assertions? God is just their default position for "I don't know".

Toyolad:
Hmmm nice questions but directed to the wrong person.....If you've got questions concerning a product ,how it was manufactured, the materials used...who do u think is in d best position to answer ur questions?? d producer of the product(d designer) or d product itself(d designed, I mean vooks)??

I ask not to support anyone but to act as a gadfly.

He is playing God, that is what all believers do , play God but refuse to answer basic questions about the God they keep claiming and positing. How did God create anything since they insist that God created everything? saying that God created things without telling us how he created them is empty and laughable. Those that claim God should please use God and explain to us how the DNA of organisms mutate for example. How does God explain anything? God has never been used to explain anything, God has only been used to make claims. When you ask the God advocates specific questions they all run away. I want any body that claims God, to use God alone and explain to me how this God of his/her created the sun, how the sun functions and the mechanism it uses to power itself. Only God should be used to explain these things, after all the claim they speak to God, so they should speak to God and ask him these questions, when he answers them they can let us know. Anything apart from that means they are just making stuffs up and relying on our collective ignorance.

"Religion and God(s) started when man had enough intellect to form profound questions but not enough to find answers for them".

One thing I found absurd about the muslims is that they truly believe that the Koran had nothing to do with men in it's composition, they truly believe that everything was sent down from a divine source. How can people hold unto such an impossible position?

vooks:
Evidence of DESIGN rules out the naturalistic theory of Origins by chance.

What is the universe designed for?

vooks:
You are not far from the truth.
Chance can create complexity but ID is more than complexity; it is complexity and ORDER.

Read up my posts on why life is not only complex but highly ordered in no way random chance can


PS
What's so complex about this pattern?

How did God create life? What did he use in creating the different varieties of life we have on earth? What mechanism did God use in creating the cells of living organisms? How did God create the different races of humans on earth? How did God create the planets and the stars? What did he use in creating the universe from nothing?

KingEbukasBlog:
Then you are insinuating it

Nope. I have't.

I've logically explained why the above statement is fallacious and you keep repeating it

Logically explained what? You have never done that. I have asked you to prove to me that only one being, force or what ever it is created the universe as opposed to many.

You keep dwelling on misconceptions . If you have questions kindly use intellectual theological publications /sources to sort yourself out like I did and stop being silly

Here in lies the problem. This is just plain spin from modern day theologians because they know that what the bible says is false, let me give you an example, in the Koran it clearly states that the sun sets in a pool of muddy waters, that has been the cultural belief at that time and even the prophet Mohammed in some of the hadiths echoed the same thing, early Islamic scholars like Altabari in their exegesis repeated the same, but modern day Islamic scholars will twist, lie and say everything to show that the Koran actually doesn't mean what it says, this same thing applies to modern Jewish and christian scholars, the early rabbis had o problem stating that genesis creation account meant what it said, but modern scholars knowing that the bible narrative is false will use words like allegory or spin it to mean something else other than what was actually written. This to me is just pure dishonesty. The people that wrote the genesis creation myth have no idea how the universe came about, they just wrote down what they thought and believed which is actually not true.

Instead of resorting to deriding the biblical account of creation , USE THE INTERNET

Which internet? Is there any universal consensus on the biblical creation account on the internet? Aren't the supposed scholars all giving different interpretation and opinions?

winner01:
Dont ask me questions, just provide a pictorial proof of the human mind. Afterall its been substantiated by evidence.
Dont quote again me if you cant.

You are asking me to provide a picture of something you haven't defined? I don't know what a human mind is. Tell me what it is first, then I'll get you the picture as requested after fully understanding what it is from what ever definition and explaination you'll provide.

winner01:
You enjoy asking questions but you've never answered one.
not sensibly at least.

Why did Yahweh create the asteroid belt in our solar system? Did he use hebrew words to speak them into existence or Greek?

vooks:
It does not 'substantiate' the 'mythical narrative'.

Now, walk with me.
Is there a remote chance that this Subaru erupted from a volcano, or any other random process?

Surprisingly it is you that hold unto such a belief because your beliefs is something close to that, that the irony escapes you is what I find amazing.

winner01:
Crap!!, crittical examination is a healthy way, not doubt.

Post a picture of the human mind as proof of its existence
Make sense man, We dont wait for existence, we build on existence. All that is left for you to discover has pre-existed.

What is the human mind?

vooks:
Like I said, admission of ignorance is a welcome move, but does ignorance mean proclivity to the most ludicrous theories?

I do not subscribe to any theory that has not been demonstrated to be factual. Your argument here on this thread has not been that the creation account you believe that is written inside the bible is factual and non mythical, but it seems all your argument is that the BB and evolution are equally false, I have nothing to say to that, but how does the BB and evolution being false substantiate the mythical narrative of the bible that talks about some imaginary God concept creating the earth before creating the sun and the stars?

FOLYKAZE:
Yoruba spiritualism gives room for atheism, non-theism just like buddhism.

You do not necessarily have to belief in those Gods and no one is threatening you to.

You can only have the go if you observed you are favour or choose not to. That is your palava.

OK

Obatala the chief of white cloth which represent light created the universe after been ordained to do by Eledumare.

According to the mythical and fictitious narrative you mean.

We do not really know because the account is silent on this.

Simply because the people that conjured up the story do not know much about them.

No purpose really. The account stated that Eleduamre does not interfare in human or earth affair

So something can be designed for no purpose at all? You were berating the other guy and mocking him for saying that he believes nothing designed the universe but some how you feel something designed our solar system for nothing.

KingEbukasBlog:
So something came from nothing then . Yh right ?

Your own making. I have never said something came from nothing. What is/are responsible for the universe no one knows. We have how your own God said he created the earth before the sun. A mythical narrative you have discarded and refused to accept.

FOLYKAZE:
Good question.

I personally embrace the Yoruba spirituality view of the universe. We see Eleduamare as the creator of the universe

This one has left atheism to embrace yoruba religion, good for you. When did Eleduamare create the universe and how? Why did he create 8 planets in our solar system with other planetary bodies and for what purpose?

KingEbukasBlog:
God is an uncaused cause . Any rebuttals ?

Your God is an idea the ancient Jewish and Romans created. He lives only in the pages of stories they wrote about him.

johnydon22:
Bro no Noah's ark was discovered on any mountain in turkey.. The Noah's flood story is a younger version of an older sumerian flood story found in Epic of Gilgamesh and Ziusudra

Troy and Greece were actual bronze age civilizations in this planet with archeological back up... That doesn't make the story of Odysseus travelling to tartarus true as recorded in Homers Iliad or Perseus having a flying horse.
Mount Olympus is an actual mountain in Greece even till today remains the tallest mountain in greece.. (Hellinistic greeks believed it was the abode of Zeus and the Gods)
that mount Olympus is an actual mountain doesn't make the claim of Zeus and other Hellenistic Gods living on it true..
so learn the difference between myths within an actual setting..

Same thing I was telling KingEbukasBlog on the other thread but he kept going on and on. These guys are so deluded that they can't understand simple things.

Godsfamilymemba:
You amaze me.

Well, Pastors don't perform tricks and they don't control when miracles happen.

Pastors all perform tricks to deceive the gullible. No pastor has any supernatural power anywhere, they just stage manage their shows or trick people into believing they were healed, no clear cut healing miracle has ever been recorded all of them are questionable, no amputee has ever has his/her amputated limbs restored through any pastor, no pastor has ever healed any baby that is suffering from down syndrome. When there was the Ebola outbreak no pastor dared to go near any Ebola patient and lay hands on him/her. Clear cut miracles do not happen.

To speak intelligently with people of other faith you need to humbly listen to them and understand them even if you don't agree with them. Christianity is a different form of science(yes, science) that has its pattern of operation and know how. If you know and follow the principles, you will get the results.

Christianiy is not a form of science because it is not testable, it's assertions can not be repeated, tested and demonstrated to be true, through any form of experiment. Christianity is a faith based system of belief.

You believe in magic, can you perform one? Does that mean magics don't exist if you can't? Now, you don't believe in miracles so all the ones people talk about are not true just because you refuse to believe it. Your type of atheism is very unscientific and inconsistent with what you say. Your faith is based on unprovable stuffs yet you want us to believe that logic explains everything.

I believe in magic and I have seen great magicians like James Randi explain the tricks they employ and how it works. They have demonstrated it in the open, there are countless videos on Youtube explaining how magicians use tricks to do all sought of magic. I have never seen any pastor explain how his miracles work, and I have never seen any pastor perform any clear cut miracle. many pastors have been exposed as fakes because all they do is lie and stage manage their so called miracles. No miracle claim is real that is why no pastor can heal any amputee and restore their amputated limbs back.

I opened this thread just to let people of your persuasion to know that it is wrong to make it look like everything in life has to be logical and explainable to be true. You only talk like that when it comes to religious discussions but several times here you have displayed how humans tend to believe stuffs even when they can't explain it. In ability to logically explain something doesn't make it wrong or right. It can be either. Period.

Religion has no evidence for most of it's assertions, because the assertions are mostly the mythologies and fictions of the ancient people that founded the religions.

KingEbukasBlog:
There is nothing logical in asserting that life has no creator and ...

I was on the magic money thread and people narrated their experiences in the hands of the fraudulent magicians . I expected an atheist to explain the science of 1000 notes "mysteriously" changing to 10 or 100 naira notes after a period of time . So disappointed that no one showed up to explain how different people across different cities experienced the same kind of fraud and there was nothing enigmatic about their experiences .

Apparently , the atheists turn a blind eye to anything that beats their dumb logic .

So Weah96 , can you explain using logic and science why how 1000 naira notes could change to 100 naira notes inside a drawer

1000 naira note changing to 100 naira note involves simple magic tricks. Google Richard Angle, Darren Brown and David Copperfield. They are the greatest magician alive. They perform magic tricks no pastor or babalawo can ever perform. They have all said there there is nothing like supernatural power any where . They have challanged any body with supernatural abilities to come forward. All of them are atheist. James Randi is another world renowned magician who has dropped a million dollars for any body that can demonstrate the supernatural in action under controlled environment. Many people with so called supernatural abilities went and failed. The money is yet to be won. You just sit there in some remote part of Nigeria thinking you know or have experienced anything. You are a funny fellow.

KingEbukasBlog:
Am not missing any point . You blindly brought in the African roots bullshyt because you couldn't refute the fact that the discovery was part of the overwhelming evidences that the bible isn't fictional .

You started mentioning talking snakes and donkeys - a sign of desperation - to digress away from the significance of the discovery

Significance of what discovery? I told you that Troy has been discovered. Does that mean that all the Greek God's talked about in the story are true? Please answer me.

KingEbukasBlog:
So now the bible is made up of history ? You always insisted it was all fiction and mythology and there is no evidence any was history . YOu want me to embarrass you by posting every single one of your posts ? Huh ? I can do that with ease

Just recently , the bones of snake that had legs ( 90 million yr old fossil) was unearthed . Though evolutionists claim that the legs of snakes were lost due to burrowing on the course of evolution , I believe it satisfies the bible's truth on snakes cursed to loose their legs . And again the snake was used as a tool by satan - it was possessed . The event was mystical and not mythical .

The talking donkey was a tool used by God to warn Balaam . These events are mystical not mythical .

I have said the bible is a book of mythology and fiction. Never have I ever stated that the Bible was all fiction and mythology alone because it obviously contains some actual history mixed with mythology and fiction all combined. So science says snakes had legs 90 million years ago and lost it due to burrowing and you believe it? The bible claimed snakes had legs 6000 years ago. Something that is categorically false. How can a curse make a snake to lose its leg? Please explain the mechanism involved please. You believe in talking snakes and hide under some deluded mysticism and expect me not to treat you as a clown? You aren't serious. The Adam and Eve story remains a Jewish fiction and mythology. If you can give me a full scientific explanation of how all the humans living on earth decend from one man and one woman about 6000 years ago then I will begin to assume you have an idea of what you are talking about. Until then the Jewish myth and fiction you have been indoctrinated with remaina just what it is.

KingEbukasBlog:
The pillock with a damaged sense of reasoning . If you should die and in a thousand years , a document with your signature on it is unearthed , it does not mean you existed ??!!

The dullard strikes again

Strike two ! Will he be on a hat- trick ?

If in a thousand years a document with my signature is unearthed it will mean I existed but if a story about me is written that I could fly in the air like a bird by flapping my hands alone, then people are not supposed to believe it but accept it as a myth. Bottom line, the bible is mixture of history, mythology and fiction all combined.

KingEbukasBlog:
Foolish dullard has the bones of the most powerful roman emperors been unearthed too ? What of the bones of socrates , aristotle , plato have they been unearthed too ? The dullard with an empty skull

What are you saying? Just because the seal of some ancient king was found means we should believe the bible? The tombs and bodies of Egyptian kings have been found, should we believe the Egyptian book of the dead that talk about them? remember Troy, the city was thought to be fictitious until it was discovered recently, does that mean all the Greek Gods and Goddess are real because Troy was discovered to be a real city that once existed? Why do you reason like a demented cow?

KingEbukasBlog:
But Dalaman said the bible is fictional

You are mostly foolish. Go to Egypt and see the tomb of the Phroahs that lived over 4000 years ago. Many of them have been unearthed with their embalmed bodies intact, does that mean we should all accept what is written in the Egyptian book of the dead because we found the corpses and tombs of the Egyptian kings that worshiped the sun God Ra Amun? Why are you mostly foolish my brother?

Godsfamilymemba:
@ Dalaman A patient was talking with a Doctor and he said, "I don't know what is causing my headache neither do you."

That you don't have an information and that you don't believe anyone else can have it doesn't mean nobody else has it. You are on your own.

Can you prove God's existence to me?

winner01:
How can you be so ruthless in lies. Give instances where God directly addressed people, and how it dosent happen nowadays.
How could you be so confident in unintelligence, God came from heaven and went to war with people
God still perform signs and wonders till date, man still marvels at the wonders of creation. Dont turn blind eyes willingly.
Saying that man has different gods is not new, its been like that since the days of the Bible.

I am busy at the moment, I don't have the time to dig them up, but I will drop all the bible verses that talk about God addressing the people of Israel through public speech, they were so afraid of his voice because it wasn't so clear and they beg Moses to intercede on their behalf. A similar story can be found in the book of Joshua where God addressed the people of Israel. As for God fighting along side the people of Israel it is there in the book of Joshua and Jeremiah. I will find the relevant verses and drop them.

Its something to be born into religion, its another thing to find out the truth. If i was born into poverty, ill try as much as possible to become rich. Do you willingly stay in poverty just because its where you were born. Why do you try to succeed in life if you werent born into success. You have no point on this.

What nonsense are you talking about? Many people all over the world try their best to run out of poverty but still keep their religion, have you ever seen any body running out of poverty and discarding his/her religion? There is nothing like truth when it comes to religion because all religions are equally valid or invalid, there is no truth in one religion alone, all are either valid or invalid. Your religion is not the truth, a muslim or a hindu will tell you that his/her religion is the truth. If you were born into a muslim family in Katsina state, Allah and the Koran will be what you will be advocating and promoting as the only truth. You are a christian only because you were born into the religion and indoctrinated with it right from childhood.

You sound so sure, you are demonstrating infinite knowledge. You need to provide compeling evidence to compensate this your sure knowledge.

God is a man made idea that is why there are many different Gods each created according to cultural needs of a group of people within a certain period in time.

Dunno what you mean man cos i dont believe in religion but truth.

Which truth? The one you were indoctrinated with right? You know no truth. You have only been indoctrinated to believe that you do, just the way a muslim will happily declare the same.

Wow...You have looked deep into the minds of many people, and you have drawn a conclusion from what they think. You probably have supernatural powers. opps!! sorry... You dont believe in the supernatural.

Do Catholics and the Pentecostal word of faith denomination share the same beliefs about God even though they belong to the same Christian religion?

winner01:
I will try as much as briefly as possible to make this clear to you, cos im busy and it seems as if y'all dont even realise you do the same thing you accuse people for.God accounts for the totality of creation, existence would have been impossible without a creator. Life itself is an effect of a cause. Evidence points to the fact that there cant be an effect without a cause.
Where you dont make sense is claiming a "nothing cause".
@bolded above, you also cant do anything without a cause. I think im in line with the fact that "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".

I don't know what is responsible for life neither do you, the fact is you only chose to accept ideas that ancient men thought about as the fact of something that is yet to be know as a matter of fact. You do not know if life came about by the action of many entities or by some super intelligent race somewhere in the universe or if life just began randomly and continued to evolve on its own as the scientist allege, you just believe in some ancient mythical idea of a God that some group of men sat down and thought about. Read the mythical creation account in genesis, does it comes close to how this universe came about? Do you even know how the book of genesis was written and complied? Do you know that part of the creation account was borrowed from the Sumerians?

This is funny. Creation is a function of a creator. Creation can be seen. And there are several testimonies and evidences that the lives of people are affected by the supernatural. Im asking a very serious question and you havent replied. For the benefit of people like you who believe only in the evidentially visible. Post an evidentially visible picture of the human mind, its location in the human body and evidence for its existence and lets learn.

Give me a clear cut example of the supernatural in action. What is the human mind? Define the human mind in very clear terms for me.

Dont twist my analogy, you should be smarter than this.
God........greater
Man........Lesser
Also in the same sense,
Man.....greater
software......lesser
So instead of the bolded, what you should ask is; is it reasonable for man to try to prove his existence to softwares for any reason, does it even make any sense.
@ bolded, please make sense. how can one create something and not know about its existence. Are you starting to get confused.

If man wants to be in a relationship with software and wants software to get to know him as stated by the religion you were indoctrinated withthen he will prove his existence to the software he created. Are you now saying that God doesn't need to prove his existence to humans? Are you crazy? What then is the bible for? Is the bible not filled with God proving his existence to humans? Remember the contest between Elijah and the prophets of Baal other such stories where God proved his existence to others. I can believe you are shamelessly saying this because you know you have nothing up your sleeve except belief in the ideas and mythical stories of ancient people.

Substantial evidence for this claim pls, dont just wave hands in the air

Comments like this is what make you look unintelligent.
We have his Word, and he tells us exactly when he created the universe. In the Begining
Before you go "the book aint credible". You yourself opened a thread on how the Bible innoculates itself against 21st century reasoning.
But you were too shallow to try to analyse how primitive minds could compete with "enlightened" minds.
God is not an idea, neither is he human. I know its hard for you to grasp due to your stubborness. But try not to think of it as a human-human relationship, try not to create a powerless god in your head.

Which word, you have the words of some men who said wrote down things and ascribed to some God idea they invented and you are regurgitating it as if it were true or factual. What knowledge about the universe and its creation can be gotten from the bible, a book that says the earth was created before the sun and the stars, a book that claims that the universe was created in 7 days and that women started experiencing labor pains because some mythical woman eat some fruit after being deceived by a talking serpent. What kind of knowledge is this? Mythical knowledge but not scientific knowledge that can be testable and falsified

KingEbukasBlog:
Dalaman .... please provide a picture of the mind as an evidence it exists .

What is a mind? Define what a mind is please.

Godsfamilymemba:
These two statements are absolutely wrong. Please read up on them and don't use such as argument. You will not hear experts in the field making such statements except in mischief.

What is the mind? Is the mind something that exist on it's own outside the function of the brain?

winner01:
God is invisible, the sun is visible. Maybe you should try to prove the existence of the human mind to me, how it looks like, where it is located in the human body and why so many people believe its existence.

The mind is the sum total of all the neurological activities that go on in the human brain. You can't reason or do anything without the brain. We all have brains and your own behavior can be altered when your brain is altered. The mind is the function of the brain, the brain can be seen and has been worked on in various ways with various results. Material substance like alcohol and drugs affect the brain and it's function so , you aren't asking a serious question that isn't known or hasn't been experimented with.

Also tell me how many humans have attempted to explain to softwares that they created it. Even though the God-man relationship is far more superior than the man-software relationship.

Human's are not interested in wanting their soft-wares to know about their existence, the software we are using to communicate on this platform was created just to aid in communication, who ever created it is not interested in it knowing about it's existence, and above all software are not conscious. They are just a set of codes used to carry out specific task. God man relationship is just a made up hypothesis. If you are in a relatioship with God that means you and this God of yours communicate back and forth right? Please tell this God of yours which you are in a relationship with to tell you exactly when he created the universe, He should give you the exact time and date and tell you how many days he used in creating the universe. That shouldn't be difficult for you since you claims you are in a very serious relationship with this God idea of your.

Also tell us if its logical for a creator to transform to the created in order to prove anything whatsoever to his creation.
Is it that you only believe in the visible and disregard or disbelieve the invisible or you find it difficult to submit under a higher authority because of your personal experiences.
Finally, try to provide your "compelling evidence" against the existence of God.
And be reasonable in your reply.

The constant lies you guys tell when you hit a brick wall and have nothing reasonable to say. According to the man made idea and theology you subscribe to this God of yours used to reveal himself to people back in the days, he used to address them through public speech, used to perform serious signs and wonders, used to bring out his hands and write on stone tablets for all to see, used to fight along with them, was all all over the place, he even came down as a human being and lived with them and on and on. Your God has undergone a lot of cultural and systematic evolution. Your God is invisible because the guys that created the idea felt it was more compelling creating an invisible being, they started out worshiping mountains, rivers, desert, to idols and later to invisible beings all depending on what they want and the ideas they conjured up. What compelling idea do you want beside the fact that your God is a man made idea, that is why human's must talk on it's behalf, humans most write on it's behalf based on what ever they imagine, humans must create what ever theology and doctrines they want others to follow on it's behalf, humans must fight all its battles for it, build it's temples and shrines, set up societies and laws on it's behalf, create systems, propagate it's message do everything on behalf of what ever God concept they have imagined and chose to live by. I have told you that God is a man made idea that is why there are many different Gods and may different religions. The religion you chose to follow is based purely by birth.

If you were born into a muslim family in Iran yo would have been a Shite muslim, if you were born into a Hindu family in Nepal you would have been a Hindu. You are a christian only because you were born into a christian family in Nigeria. Stop talking about God as if there is such a being out there that exist, there is no such thing, what exist is just the idea, the people that subscribe and believe those ideas and the system that was created based on the theology and doctrines based on that God idea. Even within your religion there are different concepts of this God idea, the Catholics for example have a very different God idea compared to the Pentecostal word of faith movement or the Aladora/ cherubim and seraphim white garment wearing Christians. They might profess God but when you look deep inside you will see that they all have very different ideas of what this God is to them all.

winner01:
Ok na, how many pages of the same argument do you want us to go today.


I havent tried and probably wont try to prove the reality of God to you or anyone, it will only make you feel significant and you arn't.

"Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman." - Laurence J. Peter

You can't try anything at all because you just can't, why should you try to prove what you can't? You can't prove the reality of any God to me anywhere because there isn't any God, when was the last time you tried to prove the reality of the existence of the sun to anybody? You can only point to the writings of men, the culture the men created and the mythical and fictional assertions they made. A muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, etc can all also prove the reality of their own Gods by pointing out to specific writings of other men, cultural systems and some personal experiences and of course the unknown as the existence of their own Gods. You have nothing just words of other men because these men and what they wrote down is the God you believe in. You have no God but the idea that other men created and you were indoctrinated by other men to accept and believe in, that's the end of story. Your God remains the idea that other men created.

winner01:
Yes, and i made no such claim either.

The gospel writers are your God. If you can point to any God that claims he owns any gospel as his message then you might be taken seriously, until then just accept that the dead men that wrote the gospels are your God. You have no God but the dead men that wrote the bible and perhaps your pastors and other religious leaders that constantly interpret the books and create doctrines out of what was written by the dead men. These are the God you believe in.

winner01:
Its a thing not to believe or be unsure of the reality of God, most atheists seem to have unfaltering evidence against God, and they demonstrate confidence to this in a very unintelligent way.


"An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence." - Carl Sagan

But Carl Sagan himself did not believe in any of the man made Gods that you guys believe in.