₦airaland Forum

maclatunji: How to think/act like Desika:

1. Select a verse of the Qur'an.

2. Completely misinterpret it.

3. Claim that your misinterpretation is actually what the Qur'an has always been saying.

4. Turn around to debunk your misinterpretation.

5. Thump your chest and punch your fist in the air after showing "those Muslims" who's boss.

Caveat: There is a natural consequence that rational people will identify you as delusional, irrational in thinking and needing help from God-knows-where if you follow in Desika's footsteps.

#LOL

how to act like Maclatunji

1. come into a discussion with ad hominens
2. say what the quran does not say
3. tell the op he is confused and misintepretes but dont explain how
4. dodge questions you cant answer
5. place your reasoning on hold just because you want to defend lies

need i remind you cheif that
the quran says that Jesus wud die before being raised up
as we speak Jesus has be raised up
it means that Jesus must have died

but if you insist that Jesus has not died then your quran does not know what its saying, as it does not mention double raising up. [how the speaker does not know that he would be raised up alive before coming back to die again for a second raisingup alive just exposes the qurans ineptness


does that help you

maclatunji: Simple, death is key. It is like asking- why didn't Jonah (Yunus AS) die in the belly of the whale? If you are not dead, you are not dead and being raised from death would not be applicable to you.

Of course, this is beyond you. #LOL

i see where you hang on to feed your delusion.

but my amazement is the fact that despite the quran being written years after Jesus's ministry, the quran couldnt clearly point out that there will be two raising ups, it does not tell us that Jesus would need to come back to die again before he is raised up. it should have known that the first raising up was invalid.

you think am misinterpreting the quran whereas its you that is helping the quran say what it does not say.

need i remind you again. the quran mentions only one raising up alive and not two. and that is what i deSika is harping on. if the quran talks about one raising up and as it is, Jesus has been raised up. my dear is it my fault to conclude that point 2 should have taken place before the one and only raising up as mentioned in the quran. is that what you call misinterpretation.

if you say i misinterprete, then pls oga show me where the quran mentions that Jesus would be raised up then come back, then die before being raised up. so thaat i can correctly inteprete it. if your quran does not say this considering that it came after Jesus[it should have been an expo for it] then i put it to you Mr. interpreter that you are saying what your quran did not say. that means you seem to know better than your quran. that means that people need to follow you the wiser one instead of the quran. that means....uhm[let me stop here for now]

RoyPCain: @truthman2013 and desika;

was our father Adam [as] so that all of us are jews? was Abraham [as] a jew so that his son Ishmael [as] a jew? this is something to think about, desika. The fact that the prophet [sa] said a man alive is from Paradise by the sound of his shoes in in front of him paradise is a clear testimony to his prophetic office.

sorry did you mean clear testimony to his being a false prophet. if i came to you and told you that i see you right now as i speak in front of my house. what would you think of me. thats exactly wat i think of Muhammad

RoyPCain: InshaAllah no muslims will be burnt by the fire of hell or be in hell except those who are arrogant by not turning back. there is no single verse that says muslims will pass through hell, while there is one saying all humans must come to it and will pass over it. it s passing at the time of passing over it the muslims will not fall into it, while others will fall into it, except Allah preventing it.

are we not saying the same thing. its shameful for you who will pass over hell {with no guarantee of not falling into it} to invite people who will not see hell to come to your creed. its blindness, its falsehood, its delusion. why not go straight to heaven with out seeing hell, doesnt that sound good, thats what christianity offers. in hthat way you avoid the probability of falling or not falling.

RoyPCain: the muslims who will end up in hell as you have said will be those who did not turn back in repentance and died on evil deed while they did not renounce Islam. but Allah willing they will come out of it. they will be different from those who are not muslims and they be forever condemned into hell. My question to you is is that what you want for yourself, old man since i cant say you are old 120 years old woman in Lagos?

truthman2013, all of are young as long as we are alive because we have the opportunity that the dead dont have; we can improve, drop our evil ways. this is the single tat Islam calls you to; acknowledging God and worship His as He orders, not as you wish.

oga pls enjoy your hell tourism alone. as for us na express road to heaven. ehkpele, say hi to the devil while you are passing over hell you hear.

ayenny02: The Islamic view that Jesus did not die is that:

so sir but your islamic view is different from the quranic view

ayenny02: 1) He ASCENDED to God

true, this is point 3 of op

ayenny02: 2) He will return back to earth and DIE, and will later on be RESURRECTED.

where is it written

ayenny02: It is clear in Sura 19:33 and the Surah talks about:

1) His birth

2) His death

3) The day he gets RESURRECTED.

The correct interpretation of Sura 19:33 is as follows:

And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!) He (`Isa) will live, die and be resurrected, just like the other creatures that Allah has created.

thats wat am saying oga. he has already done 1 and 3, it means that he has also done 2. does that help you

ayenny02: DESIKA, you get problem go back and check for your answer I can't repeat myself again

you did not agree or disagree in your previous post, you only jumped to another question. this is what yu said

Holy spirit still not mean God from your explanation

so if you dont mind i want to know if you still think Gabriel is the holyspirit.

ayenny02: I disagree with you DESIKA, I can quote from scripture that ANGELS are SPIRITS.
God is the creator of the angels (spirits), the Holy Spirit is also angel because he is spirit; Ps 104:3-5

Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: WHO MAKETH HIS ANGELS SPIRITS; his ministers a flaming fire:Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

question is where is holyspirit called cheif angel or angel in the bible. keyword is "the holyspirit" not spirit. if yu cant show this, then you must agree that Holyspirit is not an angel

ayenny02: DESIlKA don't let me give you RED CARD from NAIRALAND, don't you see u get problem for your HEAD.

You said THERE IS ONLY ONE HOLY SPIRIT and you told me that PARACLETE mean HOLYSPIRIT from ur mouth,
Now go back to John 14:16 and notice the words "another Paraclete." If the comforter is the Holy Spirit then you contradict yourself for saying ONLY ONE HOLY SPIRIT.
how many Holy Spirit's are there?

there is only one holy spirit. english is really your problem. the verse reads 'another paraclete' and not 'another holyspirit'. this another paraclete is the person of the holyspirit. [the problem is that when you say Muhammed is the peryclytos it would mean that there was a Muhammad before Muhammad since the verse would read 'another Muhammad' in place of 'another periclytos']. so get it. the person who is to do another comforting is theperson of the Holyspirit. the person who has being doing the comforting before is Jesus. the same can be said for advocating. its an english word so you can do yourself a favour with the dictionary. the comforter refers to a person who comforts. comforter does not mean the holyspirit, it is the holyspirit that is the comforter just as the President does not mean Jonathan but Jonathan is the president. keyword 'meaning' and 'is'. do you understand now.

ayenny02: PARACLETE means advocate, comforter I.e HUMAN PROPHET not Holy spirit (Angel)
The word "Paraclete" is applied to Jesus (as) himself in 1 John 2:1

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1)

Notice the word (advocate) in reference to Jesus (as) and another (comforter) with regard to the coming "parakletos."

"we have an advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

Now read;

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another advocate(parakletos)."I.e another PROPHET

yes the comforter is applied to Jesus. what yu fail to see is that it is also applied to the holyspirit. i didnt ask you whether paraclete means human prophet o,you answered out of point. which makes me wonder about your level of reasoning.
my question was that the paraclete is called a spirit of truth in john 14:17, if according to yu a spirit is always an angel, is muhammad an angel of truth, pls answer.

ayenny02: ]
If DESIKA believes that God is Holy spirit, then DESIKA must accept that God is EVIL;

1 Samuel 18:10 "The next day an EVIL SPIRIT from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand..."

1 Samuel 19:9 "But an EVIL SPIRIT from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp,..." ANOTHER EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD?!

listenning to you, it just seems as if am arguing with a child. Holyspirit was called God in the verse i presented to you, its enough for me that you saw it. your ranting about God being evil does not correlate with the verse i brought. i hope you can differentiate between spirit and 'the holyspirit'. your verse did not say an evil holyspirit from God. so help your self with you delusion. a disciple of christ called Holyspirit God, if that does not help you, i wonder what will

ayenny02: ]
Parakletos in Greek is interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads the cause of another, one who councils or advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare.
In these verses we are told that once Jesus (as) departs, a Paraclete will come. He will glorify Jesus (as), and he will guide mankind into all truth. [size=14pt]This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost.
[/size]

now you are coming up. you rightly say that This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost. so Mr. Ayenny why are you now arguing that the Holyghost is not the paraclete, when it clearly answers your question. who is the paraclete. anybody who argues after seeing that statement is either internally blind or mentally deluded.

ayenny02: Compare with John 15:26

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"

Notice the statement below
"The spirit of truth which proceedeth from the father"

If Holy spirit is God from DESIKA mouth, why Jesus said the statement "THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH from FATHER (God)

i dont know what your confusion is. Jesus said the spirit of truth from the father. where else do yu expect something that is called God to come from. if the holyspirit comes from God the father, that is even an affirmation that the holyspirit is God. you dont expect the holyspirit to come from the devil and then called God, do you.

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel and desika;

the beauty of Islam is truly beauty. if Jesus is to die, must he die a death that is horrific enough that his body does not know peace, when is Lord has guaranteed the opposite? like Elijah, Jesus was raised up and he Jesus will return and it in the return that the raising up after death will take place. this should settle it, now. abi?


[size=13pt]just like Elijah, Jesus jumped 2 to 3 and he will return to go to 2. [/size]

Surah 43 verse talks about the returning to be a sign of the hour is approaching; .
And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour) but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

this is wat i call sophisticated delusion.
am wondering why your Jesus did not say in Quran 19:33
peace on me the day i was born, the day i will be raised up, the day i will come back the day i die, and the day i shall be raised again.

perhaps we should have roypcains version of quran.

need i remind you that the verse only talks about one raising up, and before this raising up his death must occur. and as we speak Jesus has been raised. it therefore follows that for that verse to be true, he must die before he is raised. except you are telling me that that verse is false

final word:
the quran never mentions 2 raising up. so for a muslim to talk about two raising up means they are wiser than the qurans author

the qurans says Jesus must need die before being raised, as at now Jesus has been raised so it follows that Jesus must have died. for a muslim to deny this just shows the muslims ability to deny his own quran

the quran seems to suggest that the person that was crucified looked like Jesus[it appeared so] but was not Jesus. but the humble truth is that no body looks like Jesus apart from Jesus himself.

the truth keeps showing itsself. there was a death. but muslims keep denying it. may God open their eyes

cleanvessel: LET THERE BE SILENCE AND LISTEN TO THIS THOUGHTFULLY,CAREFULLY AND WITHOUT PREJUDICE.

in islam, jesus is believed as an ordinary human and no divinity attached. therefore when the quran talks about him it is from human perspective. he is expected to be born and to die like every human. isn't it?

so when the quran says he was born, to die and to be raised, it is talking about him as an ordinary human, who cannot escape death. so the order of jesus life as a human being was supposed to be as follows:

1. birth

2. death

3. raise

as a man, why should he jump no. 2 and move to 3. that would mean a disorder of human life. even muhammad your ''greatest'' prophet could not jump death, why jesus?

THE COMING BACK OF JESUS IN ISLAM IS A FICTION. allah. did not say it in the quran. it was the making of muhammad and his followers, probably they heard it from the bible.

as far as allah is concern, jesus is not coming again to be raised. HE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

thank you all.

bro good point. i have been trying to ask them where thier Allah mentioned the double raising up of Jesus as they want to claim, yet no answer.

RoyPCain: @desika; we are friends. right? so hard feelings.

no problem.

if you dont think God can raise Jesus up without letting him die first,

i think you should address this question to the speaker in that verse. Ask him why does he not think that he can be raised before death. Why does he think that he has to die first before being raised.

has God raised John son of Zacharia up, yet since they are supposed to have the raised up? And how did God raise Elijah up; dead or alive? what is the up in the raising up of Elijah and why is not the same up with Jesus?

which are more likely for God to do in the lives of good people? Make your selections from the listed below;

1] create him without covering up his mother.
1a] cover his mother up so that he come out as a baby though not as a creation.


2] accept his prayer by restricting the hands of evil doers away from him.
2a] reject his payer no matter how fervent it is and let the evil doers toy with him until the snuff live out of him.


3] raise him up alive into heaven in body and soul without letting him die a despicable death
3a] raise him upafter badly calculated 3rd passing for 3 days and 3 nights, when there is a doubt he died at all.

4] God saying you are only guessing since you dont know for sure.
4a] you are God is mistaken because you read account of 3 generation of eye witnesses writing as the absent disciples.


desika says God is the father of a child because he doesnt have a father [a lot of dr. use sperm bank to get pregnant], so it must be God Who did it since she was over shadowed and came upon. Yet you find it impossible to accept God can raise a person up away from harms.


what logic.

chief i didnt know that you have started setting jamb questions on nairaland.

Am sure you would have noticed that am not arguing from a bible perspective. That one is a settled case. As there is no confusion about the death of Jesus in the bible. Am trying to address the confusion in the quran. So if u dont mind drop the bible and comeover to the quran. Thank u

so we are where the quran says birth and then death and then raised up. Now you say Jesus was raised up but why dont you agree with this verse that death has to take place before this raising up.

If you think that there will be two raising up. Why dont you show from the quran where it says Jesus would be raised up twice.

Oya ova to you

.

RoyPCain: @truthman21013:

if you read Quran 19 starting from 65 through 74, you will see all humans in it, everyone, Jesus, Muhammad Adam, and all prophets [as]. You will not escape by thinking somebody will help you. If you die outside Islam, well. Allah is Merciful so y this thread you have no excuse and we in Islam may have our argument that we try to call you to guidance, away from misguidance. Abraham in the Bible was thrown in the fire. He was not hurt by it. So if Allah make the muslims enter it, it is by His Might and perhaps, it is a test also and He prevents it to burn those who keep faith in Him.

But you, I pray you dont die as enemy of Allah. do you know what kings do to their enemies that is in their grip? do you wanna chance anything against your Creator and dont see disaster at the end?

The fact that the prophet saw Muslims in Paradise already if thats what you are saying agrees with Quran 19/65-74 that those who will be herded or thrown into hell are not sincere muslims, but hardened non muslims, InshaAllah. You are a hardened non muslim, truthman2013. you are young and there is still a lot of life in you. go and study Islam and ask your question and challenge your mind and the church leaders. do it quickly so that you may be a source of real salvation to the others in your bloodline, the older people who by tradition, christians not knowing that Jesus didnt ask anyone to create a religion on him, but he didnt die at all so how can he die for anybody when each has to die physically and only by obedience to God in worship and good deeds faithfully is the ingredient of Merciful Salvation.

the prophets were in heavens; there are 7 layers of heavens. no one of the 7 is paradise. Paradise is a different creation and heavens as entity is a different creation. dont wear christian eye glasses to discuss islamic materils.

its interesting to note that the jewish prophets muhammad saw in paradise were long dead. Whereas the muslims he mentioned were still alive. I know that blindness wont allow you to see it. Its falsehood of the highest grade for you to accept that someone who is alive on earth is also in heaven. One would have expected Muhammad to have seen his dead jihad fighters in paradise during his visit. But no, maybe while passing through the hell they could not make it.

Its also interesting that you would pass tru hell or go to hell before going to paradise[am wondering whether as a tourist or what] and you still have the face to invite people who would not know what hell looks really looks like talkmore of seeing it to join you on you tour of hell before paradise.

Enjoy the hell tour while on your way to paradise, perhaps your paradise is just behind hell. That paradise must be hot for it to be accessible to hell tourists

deols: The raise here is of the day of judgement.

The day of accountability. Jesus is yet to be raised

ok, Ma'am, thank you for going straight to the point.

but i have a question for you.
this one that Jesus is no longer on earth how did he leave. was it not by being raised up according to your traditions.

does it make sense that Jesus is raised up before death as seen in that verse.

could you point out to me where quran says Jesus will be raised twice. thanks

maclatunji: ^'I will pick and choose whatever interpretation that suits me' is this guy's motto. You are proving to yourself that you are a disbeliever. So, what is new about that?

#Pathetic

typical
Mac never makes any meaningful contribution apart from
#you are confused,
#you are showing that you are are unbeliever
you are this, yoou are that

golpen: I love prophet ISA (pbuh). There's one thing I've always taken notice of his mode of teaching. He makes illustration his key to open hearts to his lectures.

Will my christian people here agree with me that the illustration jesus christ gave as the type of the miracle he shall shewn his people is that of jonah (who spent 3days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish) and jesus said "so shall the son of man (I.e him) spend it in the heart of the earth. I will be derailing this thread with a fresh argument should I ask if jonah was alive or dead (xtians will start fumbling for words to paint him as dead), but the fact was that "he was alive". Then if we are to agree with the fact of jonah's livelihood coupled with the fact that jesus' illustration is to be adhered to, then it proves he (ISA) did not die.

The bible even started fumbling from the begining, as it was not sure if it was Jesus himself who carried the cross to golgotha or simon of cyrene.

Now to the verse quoted.

Blessing be to him, the day he was born. Every muslims agree and say a very big ameen to that.

Blessings be to him the day HE WOULD DIE; every muslim believes he is coming back to fulfil his destiny and afterwards, he shall DIE.

Blessings be unto him, the day he shall be raised; and yes!, he shall be raised when every bit of every soul is raised.

I'll only hope my explanation can help you, but I'll like you guys to look for another means of claiming jesus christ died. This one won't help you.

this one that jesus is no longer on earth, how did he go. your quran says he was raised up.

now my question is this, this raised up that he was raised up so, why do you think he did not die before this raising up according to what the verse in the op says.

2. why did the verse not talk about Jesus birth, Jesus first raising up, Jesus coming back, Jesus death, and then Jesus second raising u. does he not know that this is how he was supposed to go.



permit me to put it to you that the verse actually proves yu wrong no matter how you try to twist the truth. the verse says Jesus will die before his being raised up. if he has been raised up as we speak, it means that he must have died before being raised up.

2. if the verse didnt say that Jesus will be raised twice, then i put it to you that you are manufacturing your own doctrine. thats falsehoood

3. if it appeared unto the jews that they were killing the right Jesus according to what your quran says in that "they killed him not verse" then you have no right to say Jesus was not killed. because the people that did the killing they were killing someone that looked like Jesus, and no body looks like Jesus apart from Jesus.

thank you

RoyPCain: @desika; there is more than one raising up. I will use your bible to illustrate 2.

ooga you don start to dey fail be that, we are talking about what quran says. the topic is another quranic perspective. can you kindly show from your quran the more than one type of raising up.

RoyPCain: A] raised up to heaven without being dead. Example of a person raised up this way; Elijah.

B] raised up to the top of the earth become a living, after being dead and buried. Example of a group raised up this way:
the saints.

Coming to Quran that you have accused. since Allah gave Jesus speech to say he was born, he will die and he will be raised up after, The Very God Allah says Jesus was not crucified or was he killed at all by any method in surah Nisaa.

in chapters 3 and 5 below you will see consistency of Allah not wavering and definitely He can do all things He will;

3/54-6 He will raise Jesus up to free him of the plots against his life and the plotters shall be damned; 54;And (then unbelievers) plotted and planned and Allah too planned and the best of planners is Allah.
55; Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith to the Day of Resurrection; then shall ye all return unto Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
56; "As to those who reject faith I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter nor will they have anyone to help.

And in 5/110 on the Day of Judgment, Allah will interrogate Jesus restating to Jesus and all that He prevented death to come to him by the hands of the children of Israel; [The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."

from the above, there is no way that anyone can say Quran says Jesus was killed before he was raised up. He he were to have been raised up, then there is no reason to be returning him. What we see clearly therefore was that in his first miracle he spoke to defend his mother along with tell them his future.

The future belongs to God as the fine details are His alone to determine. Jesus was not allowed to be humiliated so God raised him up, while making the plan of the evil doers worthless.

now oga, how does all the above explain the fact that Jesus was raised up but bypassed death in contrast to what was written in the verse in the op.

@Ayenny, I see that you don’t want to accept the truth. But don’t worry I wud try to come down to your level. What we need to do is to take things step by step.
1. At first you said that Angel Gabriel is the holyspirit. And then I showed you luke 1:35 and the angel answered and said unto her. the holyghost shall come upon thee.
I want to know whether you still think that Gabriel is the holyspirit. For him to have said “the holyspirit will come upon you” and not “I will come upon u” means that he was referring to another being outside him.
a. do you agree that angel Gabriel is not the holyspirit
b. Do you also agree that you ayenny cannot quote anywhere in the scripture where the holyspirit is referred to as a chief angel or even as an angel.
2. Yu noow shifted to angels are spirits.
Yes all angels are spirits, they don’t die a physical death. But yu must understand that even God himself is a spirit so can you say that God is an angel. No. not all spirits are angels. The Holyspirit also referred to as the spirit of God is not an angel. When you say house of God, it means that the house belongs to God. When you say spirit of God it means that the spirit belongs to God.
a. Do you agree that the holyspirit is never called the angel of the lord in the bible.
b. Do you agree that the bible never calls angels as the holyspirits. [There is just one holyspirit who is always referred to as the holyspirit/spirit of God]
c. You seem to argue that the spirit is an angel, when the bible says the paraclete is the spirit of truth in john 14:17 now would you say that Muhammd is also an angel


3. You seem incapable of understanding the concept of Holyspirit being God. What I did was to show you where God was interchanged with the holyspirit, meaning that the speaker knew that if he says God or Holyspirit, he is still saying same thing. But as you don’t have anything to say you just spewed your trademark rubbish.
But as you don’t have anything to say about that, it means that that truth is irrefutable, but you just want to ignore it

4. Pls fill in the blank sspace. From john 14:26 but the comforter which is the _________.

i hope you have been able to learn one or few things

he says

RoyPCain: @truthman2012; The "all nations" here is 12 nations of the children of Israel.

then now turns and says

RoyPCain: the liar is the pen of who said Jesus says 'go preach to all nations'.

end shall never wonder abi na wonders shall never end. so the "all nations" were 12 nations and then the writer lied about that same "all nations"

the amazing thing is that its this same person that i have been showing old testament scriptures that point to the messiahs authority covering both jews and gentiles for some time now. i wonder

Chris†Kid:
Lmao @ how muhammad was bargaining number of prayers to be offered. It seems like Moses understands humans better than muhammad and allah put together.

my brother, it seems Allah does not know what the humans he created can handle. Allah does not know that his creatures cannot bear much prayers. Moses knows better.

RoyPCain: @truthman2012; Jesus promised you nothing because you are not from the children of israel. satan promises you the reason you are saying Jesus promises you. you will see that John was talking for John and didn't hear any of your hope from Jesus. just imagine the silence of the other 3 of what John says and you are chancing your eternity on that? if Jesus said them, can you imagine the 3 denying their audiences these very crucial details, the very building block of your very salvation?

Allah has answered John in the Quran; It is not possible for anyone give guidance of faith in truth [revelation] and wisdom to say worship any other but Allah, when he himself did not slack in worshiping Allah.

I listened to a christian yesterday saying that Jesus said the Lord's prayer, every day, yet it was recorded in the bible once try to show us that not all that Jesus did was recorded. we know that the christians conveniently dont care to write all especially since they make Jesus human and they formulated what they will on him to look more than human prophet. the point is when Jesus say the Lord's prayer everyday, it is a proof that he was not teaching it alone, but commanded upon him as a slave servant human prophet [as] to remember his Lord by.

bros your lies have entered another level o.
i told you that Jesus did not pray the lords prayer, he taught it. na wa for u o.

you want the four gospels to say same thing. yet when the four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified yu wuld still not listen. your hypocrisy is of the highest grade

maclatunji: LWKMD! Is there anything like being 'raised dead'? This guy should stop making a fool of himself.

for your mind you have said something kwo. keep dodging the issue being discussed you hear.

yu said "What makes you think the 'raising' in that verse has occured? You keep displaying your ignorance."
its now left for you to tell me which raising was Jesus raised up. and how many times someone can be raised up.


while yu are at it. just keep in mind that your quran contradicts itself about the crucifixion issue
1. it says Jesus would die before being raised up, he has already being raised up, it follows that he has already died then.
2. it says it seemed unto the jews that they were killing Jesus, yet in reality they were actually doing it.

truthman2012: How do you people reason? It is like the more you read the quran, the less intelligent you become. Spiritual manipulations. I am sure the Holy Spirit cannot be happy with you for likening Muhammad, an ordinary sinner, a mortal to Him.

my brother, the thing baffles me too. it seems one of the fruits of been a muslim is low reasoning, self delusion etc.

RoyPCain: @desika: he said raised alive as a babe talking to the elders of the jews. do you realize it could not have happened when he was talking? and it didn't the future process is opened till it happens. Quran says it has not happened yet by the saying they did not kill him [even with other method] and they did not crucify him [as you desika have agreed].

there is no realising anything oga. the verse is straight forward.

birth, death and then raised up.

and not birth, raised up, death, raised up. hehehe abegii. hoow you want take deny this one

as far as i am concerned Jesus has been raised up according to islamic tradition. now what baffles me is that muslims say he did not die before this his raised up experience. falsehood raised to power 10 if i may say.

RoyPCain: @desika; no where did the verse say anyone was killed or he looked like Jesus. This is your own imagination and i am not surprised because all the apologists are in the same pot you just show us that you are in here. Have you heard of holography? even though i am just suggesting thats what it is, but i am saying that humans are able to fool your sight by holography. Allah the Almighty is capable of letting the see wrong [their truth] they wished to see since they heard wrong saying "Jesus of the cross" was calling for Prophet Eli [their own mockery of his 'condition']. Did he call for Prophet Eli, desika?

o man, i thought both of us have been tru with wat Jesus said on the cross. Eli meaning my God. am really dissapointed but not surprised anyway.

the verse says, They slew him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them. were they watching it in a movie that someone was killed. how did it appear so unto them, if not that they
1. killed someone actually crucified someone
2. the person that was killed appeared as Jesus to them.

your reasoning skills has always been like this, so am not surprised

RoyPCain: when the truth is told to you, just because it disagrees with what you accept, you want it to disagree all the way, therefore mixing lies [you want] with the truth [you rejected]. It does not happen that way. If the jews were friends of Jesus, why would Jesus be asking God to help him by preserving his life from their hands? that should be your focus of reasoning. What do you call those who God reject their plea? are they not sinners and or the rejected? is that what you want for Jesus?

hahaha muslims say Jesus was not crucified. it would have made sense to that if Jesus was in good terms with the jews and as such there was no need for any killing. but if the jews wanted to kill Jesus and looked for every possible means to kill him and infact killed him, then why will any sensible person say Jesus was not killed. uhn

RoyPCain: There is no statement that you can use to indicate that Quran says somebody was killed. If you know any irrefutable verse, bring it from the Quran. Example; your earlier made it seem to me that from the village [lol]. Mr. Desika, can you conclude from what i just said about you and village means that I just confirmed that definitely you are from the village? Looking like Jesus may be ordinary 'nothing' as in holograph. God can do better for His prophet [as] so that the enemies are not victorious. or you want the enemies to be victorious? If bomb was invented back then, the jews would have thought about it. ask the british and king david's hotel. There is no death is what Quran says.

again what does it appeared so unto them mean. think.

RoyPCain: Not in the Quran you will read God changing appearance of anyone. You will not find it in the hadith either. humans, muslims or not err. so when somebody proposes, if its wrong you cant say its what God said. It is made seem so to them does not say here is the details; its appearance somebody named or unnamed that was changed. Allah is not unjust to any creature. so if He didn't let people kill innocent Jesus, He will not kill somebody in place of Jesus to satisfy anyone. Allah does not have to satisfy you or I, but we have to and whoever does not there is consequence for it, except that Allah forgives him.

interseting write up you have here. so do mind doing me the favour. help me contact yur muslim brothers, vedaxcool, lagosShia and the rest. tell them that God cannot put the appearance of someone on another person. tell them that no Judas or Simon was impersonating Jesus. hahaha. i bet you dont know what you just said

RoyPCain: if i was asked I will say a sinner who deserved it. But is Jesus a sinner? Does he deserve to die by hanging? is it a honorable death to die by hanging? do evil community agrees to kill a Godly person? does God allow Gold person be killed by the evil enemies of the Godly person who are also enemies of God [stand by your messenger is a good song here and God is not unjust to His creatures and He does not abandon His Elects], especially when God is besieged for protection? this goes to the heart of the biblical test of who a true prophet is and any who spoke falsely. Is Jesus a true prophet if he asked God for protection and you say God refused? you have to answer each of my proposals?

sorry cheif, question not yet answered. playing the dodging game uhn

if you were asked who exactly was being killed, what would you say. remember you were there during the killing.

RoyPCain: for more pls read
https://www.nairaland.com/1271315/dilema-muslims-crucifixion?

yes go to that thread and see how your brothers ran away after being shown the truth.

this is what you said

Maclatunji: What makes you think the 'raising' in that verse has occured? You keep displaying your ignorance.

but up till now you have not told us what type of raising up Jesus was raised up, if the raising up in that verse has not occured. keyword: raised alive

maclatunji: No need for conjecture, the facts are clear in the Quran. The fact that you are confused does not mean I or any other person would join you in confusion.

there is a contradiction and you are saying someone is confused.

you cant explain yursef, yet you wont listen to some elses explanation. am sorry for you

sino: Erm desika, are you now applying the 'holy spirit' induced interpretation for the Quran?

Let me give you a small assignment, in the verse you quoted, the Arabic word used for raised up is what? Then check Quran 4 vs 158, and tell me the Arabic word used. Thanks in advance.

trying to play the trademark muslim denial. the verse says raised alive. its an english word and i understand what it means. i was not the one that translated it so.

maclatunji: Simple, you expose your ignorance again. The same Qur'an which you seek to misinterpret says Jesus (AS) was not crucified. Then, it tells you, that every soul shall taste death.

So, are you believing in one part of the Qur'an and disbelieving the other?

You are like a little boy who seeks to show that he knows, when he knows not.

You must study the Qur'an with proper context. Going to antiIslamic websites will only compound your ignorance.

you have proven yurself again. instead of addressing the issue at hand, you have gone 90 degrees off.

pls we are talking about what it means for some one to say
birth - death - raise up

and you now saying
birth - raised up - come down - die - raise up

the funny thing is that yoou call someone a misinterpreter yet you cant explain anything.

point of focus: the verse did not say after birth there will be rasing up then death then raising up. so i dont know what your point is




did you read my post above [5 posts above or so] where i discussed about the inefficiency of the "they killed him not" verse.

if the quran says the person that was killed/crucified loked like Jesus to his killers, who are you to say that those his killers should nt say that they killed a Jesus kind of person. who are you to deny the crucifixion self, when your quran still mentions quran.

final word: let me ask you the question i asked above. if you were there when the people were killing the person they took as Jesus and someone asked you who was just being killed what would you say.

i have already showed you where Gabriel the angel said "the holyspirit would come upon you". if he was the holyspirit he would have said "i will come upon you". now if you have seen this and still continue to argue that Gabriel is holyspirit. then you are choosing to be self deceptive.

the holyspirit is God. now read this

Acts 5:3-4

King James Version (KJV)

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

its same you that asked

ayenny02: Can you tell the teaching of jesus that the prophet (saw) did not teach

when you were given points,it same yu that said

ayenny02: If you want answer for this, pls open your thread and call me OLODO

why did Muhammad not remind us that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. no one cometh to the father except by him. if he reminded us of what Jesus said

why did Muhammad not remind us that we were to go into the world to baptize people in the name of the father, son and the holyghost

Why did Muhammad not remind us that Jesus said we should come unto him all that are weary.

why did Muhammad not say we should turn cheek when we are beaten

why did Muhammad condemn people in contrast to Jesus not allowing people to condemn an adulterous woman

why did Muhammad fight wars, when Jesus refused to have a single quarrel


breaking news: your quran seems to suggest that Jesus would come back and Judge MANKIND. if Jesus would come back to judge the whole world, you inclusive why would yu not follow/obey the person that would eventually judge you. someone in whom your eternal destiny depends on. why would you not humble your self and learn from him the right path.

maclatunji: It is quite simple, Jesus (AS) was not crucified, was raised to the heavens, will be brought back, will die and then on then prior to judgement will be raised like everybody else.

So, what are you yapping about?

the verse says Jesus life cycle would be

birth - death - raised up

but Maclatunji says Jesus life cycle would be

birth - raised up - come down - death - raised up


which one should i take. the quran or Maclantunji's verse

RoyPCain: @desika: I am not going to go through the bits of posts above, but if your question is how was could Jesus be raised up without dieing, i will give you raising up without dying as evidence of possibility.

from your bible, Elijah was raised up to heavens. did he die? we know from the bible that he was raised up alive. God is able to accomplish all He wills. the jews were expecting Elijah who went up alive to return. why are they? maybe because they know no one will escape death since Moses who God spoke with didnt and their father who you said fought Yahweh and was victorious over Him and man didnt escape death. so the jews believed Elijah had to come back to die. Lets leave the disagreement of Jesus and John about who came back as or who was not Elijah. one thing we know is that no one will escape death.

Why you say that Jesus already died, you are saying even he would not have escaped death as your God/god, falling into human characteristics.

I agree with you that he is human. period. Well i disagree with you about his dying when you said he did. i say that he will return and he will die the very first time on earth in the return. then judgment day. Hence what you called his death 2,000 years ago, was no death.

My disagreement continues; when he dies in the future as i have said, above, he will be raised up as in resurrected like all of us for The Day of Judgment.


In conclusion his statement in the Quranic verse you started this thread with alluded to many things; His birth that had happened before the speech.

His death that will happen after the speech, after he was raised up alive with being death 2,000 years ago, after his future return to earth landing in a place already named in the city of Damascus. [size=13pt] There is a grave already dug for him in Madina which he [as] will buried inshaAllah, because Muhammad [sa] said so. Then he will be raised up finally from death. [/size]

hahaha, o boy see self deception at its height. according to you Jesus has not died yet, his grave is already dug for him. would you mind if someone digs your grave before you die. Roy you no go kill somebody with lie o.

the verse points to the fact that Jesus would die after birth and before raising up. now why did he raise up before dieing. the speaker definitely does not know that his life cycle would go like this
birth - raisedup - death - raised up

and if he does not know that then he is a fake prophet for sayying his llife cycle would be
birth - die - raised up.

oops. so many false prophets

muslims quote Quran 4:157. to support their denial of the crucifixion. but if we do a little reasoning we will discover the fowl play intended to deceive millions of muslims


Quran 4:157
And because of their saying: ‘We slew the Messiah, Jesus, Peace be upon him son of Mary, Allah's messenger.’ They slew him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain,


A.
the verse actually agrees that
1. someone was killed by crucifixion.
2. the person that was crucified looked like Jesus, for it claims it was made to appear unto them so

so lets do the analysis
islamic traditions give a pointer to the following facts
a. the jews had a grudge with Jesus and as such actually wanted to kill Jesus

i wud have seen good reasoning on their part if the quran had said that the jews and Jesus were best of pals and so there was no need or reason to kill him. then we would then be asking "how cud they just kill Jesus for NO JUST CAUSE"
But as it stands there was a need to kill him.

b. they actually killed someone that looked like Jesus and guess where on the cross ofcos. the question that arises from this is that who would look like Jesus apart from Jesus himself. the cross issue is already settled as we do not have any pointer to an alternative form of death that is in contention here apart from crucifixion. there is no mention of say the poeple trying to bomb the building in which Jesus was preaching


c. But the lie is that God changed the appearance of someone else to Jesus to protect Jesus. this is a lie because even if God wanted to protect Jesus he would have used some other more reasonable means as making Jesus inaccessible to his killers by escaping before his arrest or by becoming invisible or something else. besides God would nt want to protect Jesus from what was preplanned for him.

in summary, they claim that JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED BUT THE JESUS THAT WAS CRUCIFIED IS NOT THE REAL ONE.



B
if i ask a muslim this question. "supposing you where there when the jews killed someone that looked like Jesus.and you were asked "who is being killed". the obvious answer would be that the person being killed is Jesus. so now why would they think it an abomination when christians say Jesus was killed.



for more pls read
https://www.nairaland.com/1271315/dilema-muslims-crucifixion

muslims just seem to love that Jesus did not die. i sometimes wonder why would the denial of the death of Jesus matter so much to islam if not to denigrate the purpose of the death, the message behind the death.

but sound reasoning and common sense is not on the sides of these muslims. if only a muslim could engage a little reasoning about this crucifixion story as presented from thier very own quran,they truth would not be far from them.

so i will be presenting some more points for muslims to ponder on.