₦airaland Forum

ijawkid: How can you say there is no difference between the reference jOhn made as regards zechariah 12:10 which he quoted verbatim and the actual verse at zechariah 12:10 from some trinitarian renderings??.....

Please open that john and read if it doesn't differ from zechariah 12:10.......

And I even quoted from other trinitarian renderings to show the truth.....even fellow trinitarians know this verse in zechariah was rendered wrongly because its infact contradictory...

Because after stabbing Yahweh according to the renderings you presented,they would now look at another person and mourn for that person..........isn't that madness??....

Crazy bro!!!......

Even the verse itself is contradictory......

John re-quoted that verse verbatim and said something different....

You guys have to make adjustments.......

so you mean say all the translations i brought are wrong.
so you mean say you dont understand 3rd person pronoun

Appendix A - "They Shall Look Upon ME" Zech 12:10

All the Hebrew Texts, such as: The Standard Critical Edition, BHK, BHS, have "me" in Zechariah 12:10. The Septuagint (LXX), the third century B.C. translation from Hebrew to Greek is also translated "me." The first person pronoun "me" indicates that Jehovah Himself is speaking. Anyone who made a "Modern Hebrew Text," used one that had "me" in the manuscript. Modern Hebrew versions that do not translate yla "me" have made a variant text in order to impose some predetermined bias, hoping to undermine the impact of this verse.

Zech 12:10 proves that Jehovah is the One who will be pierced and John 19:37 proves that this is Jesus Christ.

Anyone who is interested can write the American Bible Society in New York and request a copy of the Old Testament Hebrew Texts that have been used to translate the O.T. into hundreds of current languages. Please check it out for yourself!

The Watchtower's (NWT) variant rendering of Zech 12:10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One (Should be "ME" - meaning Jehovah who is speaking.) whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son]. See John 19:37

NOTE: See Zechariah 14:3-5 in the NWT to be sure that the "ME" or the Person is Jehovah, for Jehovah's feet will stand and Jehovah will return with His saints. This is the Lord Jesus Christ as the verses in the New Testament clearly prove.

Zechariah 14:3-4 "And Jehovah will certainly go forth and war against those nations as in the day of his warring, in the day of fight. 4 And his feet will actually stand in that day upon the mountain of the olive...5 And Jehovah my God will certainly come, all the holy ones (saints) being with him.

Compare these verses with Acts 1:11-12; Jude 1:14; 1Thess 3:13

chill Wiseman
this is what you said

lanrexlan: then it makes sense if THE hadith says Allah will come to them in a shape nearest to the one they have in their minds,since their HEARTS is like that of a single man.

if their hearts become like that of a single man, does it now make what is bad good. if having picture in their mind is bad (shirk) when they are not single, then how will becoming single make the same act of "having picture of Allah(shirk)" good.

point is having picture in thier mind is shirk, whether on judgement day or present day. shirk is shirk

where is Ayenny, and the rest, they need to learn from the Wiseman Lan........good job.

lanrexlan: I thought you can think,that's why I explained it to you.Do you even know the meaning of shirk? Will there be worship on the day of Judgement? Why are you thinking like this? You just showed me how ignorant you are,no need telling you anything again.....Peace

oops!

lanrexlan: There's no need taking any challenge,I still stand on what I said.Having a picture of Allah in mind when on earth isn't allowed and prophet muhammed(pbuh)didn't tell anyone to have a picture of Allah in his mind,the hadith is talking about the day of Judgement which hasn't happen.It's the future.

It's narrated on the authority of Abu Huraraih;Allah's messenger(pbuh)said;The first batch of people who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like the moon on a full moon night and those who will enter next will be glittering like the brightest star.THEIR HEARTS WILL BE AS IF THE HEART OF A SINGLE MAN for they will have neither differences nor any enmity amongst themselves..............[Sahih Bukhari 4;3246].

You can see that some things will change on the day of Judgement,if THE believers' hearts is like that of A SINGLE MAN,then it makes sense if THE hadith says Allah will come to them in a shape nearest to the one they have in their minds,since their HEARTS is like that of a single man.What I am saying is that if everyone has different picture of Allah in their minds,then which picture will Allah appear to them? That's my stand in the first instance,Allah knows best what will happen on judgement day.

I just verified the hadith alexis posted,I mistook it for another hadith of the same narrator with the same context,only what's different is where he highlighted that says Allah will come to them in a shape nearest to the picture they had in mind about Him.The hadith I mistook for it is that of sahih Bukhari 9;7439,the place he highlighted says Allah will come to them in a shape other than the one they saw the first time.That's the only difference in both hadiths,my mistakes for not verifying in the first instance,accept my apology......Peace

you should not apologize to me, you should apologise to Alexis who you called a liar here

lanrexlan: The place alexis highlighted is not in the hadith,he decided to add his own words.

lanrexlan: That means alexis is lieing,that part he highlighted isn't in the hadith.

so i take it that you standby what you initially said here

lanrexlan: Having a picture of Allah in one's mind isn't allowed in islam.It's shirk,

but Muhammad says Then (Allah) the Lord of the worlds will come to them in a SHAPE NEAREST to the PICTURE they had in THIER MINDS ABOUT HIM

now the question is not whether they have different images or single image about Allah. the question is having any image at all about Allah

so what you have just said is that
1. the people who Allah will appear to in a SHAPE NEAREST the IMAGE THEY HAVE OF ALLAH will be commiting shirk

2. Muhammad said some people will be commiting shirk on judgement day, because they would certainly have an image in their mind (whether same image or different images)

3. Allah would be appearing to poeple who are commiting shirk, people who have a PICTURE of him in thier mind. [lanrexlan says having picture of Allah is shirk]

thank you, wiseman lanrexlan. you have just done what the thread asks. you have just taught non muslims that
Allah will be appearing to people who had pictures of him in a shape that is cloosest to that picture, and therefore would be appearing to shirk commiting muslims. Allah loves shirk commiting muslims

#extending handshake......good job, good job, good job

where is Mac, he needs more lectures from Wiseman Lanrexlan.

maclatunji: Simple, you seek for understanding of the hadith within Islamic context. This is beyond those who call Sahih Bukhari an Islamic 'Holy Book'.

There is a long sequence of things that will happen on the day of judgement [size=14pt] before what that particular hadith talks about happens.[/size]

question is will it happen or not.

if it happens, will those people who have pictures in their mind be commiting shirk

if they will be commiting shirk, then why will Allah appear to them in the shape nearest the picture......
doesnt he know that that would be shirk

Ijawkid dont you just love this

the person who says
Isaiah 45:5
I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not known me;

came here and then said
isaiah 48:16
"Come near to me and hear this: "From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I. " Now the Lord Yahweh has sent me, with his Spirit.

@ Ijawkid
na only malachi you see fr that post

when Jesus said
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

he did not say
"I am not good, stop calling me good"

i think the message there is
"when you call me good, you are actually saying that i am God."

he did not say kai shut up, dont call me good, its only God thats good.

ijawkid: How dubious of you to had quoted malachi 3:1 incompletely.....


New International Version
(©2011)
"I will send my messenger, who
will prepare the way before me.
Then suddenly the Lord you are
seeking will come to his temple;
the messenger of the covenant,
whom you desire, will come," says
the LORD Almighty.

1....We have the LORD almighty(Yahweh)
2...We have the messenger who would prepare a place...
3...We have the messenger of the covenant.....


Did you miss number 3??,,,

You dubious desika...

it seems you have a problem with english, no offence intended

New International Version (©2011)
" I will send my messenger, who
will prepare the way before me.
Then suddenly the Lord you are
seeking will come to his temple;
the messenger of the covenant,
whom you desire, will come," says
the LORD Almighty.


World English Bible
"Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me; and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, behold, he comes!" says Yahweh of Armies.

the Yahweh of armies says he will send his messenger to prepare a way before him (the Yahweh himself).

the Lord they are seeking will come after the messenger who prepares the way
the messenger of the convenant will come to his temple after the messenger prepares the way

simple comprehension should tell you that the Yahweh of armies, the lord, the messenger of the convenant is referring to the same person who the messenger is coming before.

pls read this line again:
I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me

messenger before me......says the Yahweh of armies
Yahweh of armies says messenger before him. yet the messenger came before Jesus. does that help you.

.

http://www.qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/zechariah/12.html

יְרוּשָׁלִַם רוּחַ חֵן וְתַחֲנוּנִים וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי אֵת אֲשֶׁר־דָּקָרוּ וְסָפְדוּ עָלָיו כְּמִסְפֵּד עַל־הַיָּחִיד וְהָמֵר עָלָיו כְּהָמֵר עַל־הַבְּכוֹר


Massoretic Text OT Hebrew Zechariah 12:10 Lexicon Strong's Concordance Cross ReferencesAdd Your Comments on Zechariah 12:10 Forums Online 12:10 w'shäfakh'Tiy al-Bëyt Däwiyd w'al yôshëv y'rûshälaim rûªch chën w'tachánûniym w'hiBiy†û ëlay ët ásher-Däqärû w'šäf'dû äläyw K'miš'Pëd al-haYächiyd w'hämër äläyw K'hämër al-haB'khôr


Massoretic Text OT Hebrew Zechariah 12:10 Lexicon Strong's Concordance Cross ReferencesAdd Your Comments on Zechariah 12:10 Forums Online 12:10 And I will pour 8210 z8804 upon x5921 the house 1004 of Däwið דָּוִד, 1732 and upon x5921 the inhabitants 3427 z8802 of Yærûšälaim יְרוּשָׁלִַם, 3389 the spirit 7307 of grace 2580 and of supplications: 8469 and they shall look 5027 z8689 upon x413 me x853 whom x834 they have pierced, 1856 z8804 and they shall mourn y4553 x5594 for x5921 him, as one mourneth y5594 z8804 x4553 for x5921 [his] only 3173 [son], and shall be in bitterness 4843 z8687 for x5921 him, as one that is in bitterness 4843 z8687 for x5921 [his] firstborn. 1060

ijawkid: Let us also review some
major translations
translated by Trinitarian
Greek scholars:

1...they shall look on him
whom they have thrust
through, and they shall
mourn for him (NAB)

2...they will look at the one
whom they stabbed to
death (TEV: Todays
English Version)

3....they will look at the one
whom they have pierced
(The Jerusalem Bible)

4...they shall look on him
whom they stabbed
(Moffatt)

5...they shall look at him
whom they have stabbed
(American Translation,
Goodspeed)

6...when they look on him
whom they have pierced,
they shall mourn for him
(RSV/NRSV)


Also let's look at how the apostle John referenced zecharia 12:10...

And again another
Scripture says, "They
shall look to him whom
they pierced." (John
19:37).
The reading of Zechariah
12:10 which John knows is
not "they shall look upon ME"
but "they shall look upon
HIM." (or more literally, "to
whom they pierced.".
Indeed, the reading
"him" (or "whom" instead of
"me" also appears in some
Hebrew manuscripts (F.F.
Bruce, History of the Bible
in English, pages 199, 200,
Lutterworth Press, 1979,
third edition).

If one takes
the position that the Holy
Spirit inspired each and
every word which John
wrote, then one also must
insist that the Holy Spirit is
confirming to us which
reading of Zechariah 12:10 is
the correct reading.
Otherwise, one must then
conclude the Holy Spirit
inspired John to quote a
mistaken reading of
Zechariah 12:10.
Even further to the point,
John quotes Psalm 34:20,
"not a bone of his will be
broken." This is a reference
to a human being and John
quotes this verse along with
Zechariah 12:10. It is plainly
evident that John had
humanity, not divinity, in
mind when he quotes these
two verses. In other words,
John quoted both of these
passages in reference to
Jesus as a man. John 19:36
strongly suggests that there
is no possibility that John
himself perceived Zechariah
12:10 as referring to Jesus
as Yahweh in any respect.



Learn to use your senses......

bro what are you saying, you are really far gone. so you are trying to say that johns gospel shows you the right word because of the holy spirit and Zechariah uses the wrng word because he does not have the Holyspirit abi.

there is no difference between John and Zechariah, my friend.
i can qquote john 3:16 "who so ever beleiveth in me" as "for who so ever believeth in him(Jesus)" does it change the message. no. the speaker quotes the first and thus uses the third person pronoun 'him'.

now you are making me do this, and i will do it

New International Version (©2011)
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem, and they will look at Me whom they pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly for Him as one weeps for a firstborn.

International Standard Version (©2012)
I will pour out on the house of David and on the residents of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and of supplications, and they will look to me —the one whom they pierced.'" Then they will mourn for him, as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him, as for a firstborn son.

NET Bible (©2006)
"I will pour out on the kingship of David and the population of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication so that they will look to me, the one they have pierced. They will lament for him as one laments for an only son, and there will be a bitter cry for him like the bitter cry for a firstborn.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"I will pour out the Spirit of blessing and mercy on David's family and on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look at me, whom they have stabbed. Then they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son, and they will cry bitterly for him as one cries for a firstborn son.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

American King James Version
And I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look on me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

American Standard Version
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and of prayers: and they shall look upon me, [/b]whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for an only son, and they shall grieve over him, as the manner is to grieve for the death of the firstborn.

Darby Bible Translation
And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look on [b] me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for an only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

English Revised Version
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Webster's Bible Translation
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me [/b]whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

World English Bible
I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to [b] me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn.

Young's Literal Translation
And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.

lanrexlan: Prophet muhammed(pbuh) never told muslims to have a picture of Allah in their minds.If what alexis wrote is right because I am still checking,the hadith is talking about what will happen on the day of Judgement.Having picture of Allah when on earth is shirk and prophet muhammed(pbuh) never endorsed that....Peace

simple. will you take my challenge or not

Alexis brought up a hadith that shows where Muhammad said " Then (Allah) the Lord of the worlds will come to them in a SHAPE NEAREST to the PICTURE they had in THIER MINDS ABOUT HIM

if the above is true, what will yu Lanrexlan do.
1. will you defend Muhammad and say that Allah will really come to them in a shape nearest to the picture they had in their minds. this is what Muhammad said in the hadith

2. or will you stick to what you said, that having a picture in their mind is shirk [whereas Muhammad said they will have a picture in their mind, and its the shape nearest to the picture that Allah will appear to them.]

you are not running away from this. take the challenge, then i will bring up that hadith from islamic sites.

then this
zechariah 12 American Standard Version
verse 1

The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus'saith Jehovah, who stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him:

verse 2
behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of reeling unto all the peoples round about, and upon Judah also shall it be in the siege against Jerusalem.

verse 10
And I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look on me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Yahweh says he is been pierced, but of course you know that no body can see him talkmore of piercing him. Now which Yahweh is been pierced, if not Jesus.

@ Ijawkid
i also wonder how you missed this.

deSika: So could Jesus be God almigthy.

Hmm, big question but lets go to the scriptures.

In isaiah 48 :16 i had already shown a creator being, who says he is the first and the last telling us that the Lord God and his spirit hath sent him. This creator being who says he is sent by the lord God also tell us that "I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not known me;i am the lord and there is none else, there is no God beside me" in chapter 45:5. There is no God beside him. is he joking or what and yet he is sent by the lord Yahweh. He says he is a just God and a savior, chap45:2.

So who is this God that there is no God beside him, that created the universe yet he is sent by another Lord Yahweh and his spirit. Could this be Jesus. Hmmm.

Malachi 3:1
behold i will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me ; and the lord whom ye seek,shall suddenly come to his temple....saith the lord of host.

Here the lord of host is saying he will send his messenger( this is obviously John the baptist) to prepare the way before him (the lord of host). Here it seems John the baptist is to prepare the way before the lord of host. But John came to prepare way for Jesus. Does it mean that Jesus is the lord of host. Am sure you are getting the picture. Why would Jesus call him self the Lord of host.

Zechariah 2:10,11
sing and rejoice, o daughter of Zion: for lo, i come and i will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the lord ......and i will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shall know that the lord of host hath sent me unto thee.

rewind to verse 8,9
for thus saith the lord of hosts; .... And ye shall know that the lord of host hath sent me.

Hosea 1:7
but i will have mercy upon the house of judah, and i will save them by the lord thier God .....

Are you guys still with me. The Lord is saying that he will save them by the lord thier God. He will save then by Jesus the lord thier God lets link this us with matthew 1:21 and she shall bring forth a son,and thou shalt call his name Jesus; for he shall save his people from thier sins and acts 4:12 ....for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Its so clear, if you are arguing against Jesus being God you are evidently arguing against the bible.

@ Ijawkid
i wonder how you missed this

deSika: THE 'MORE THAN ONE PERSON NATURE' OF GOD -- how many are they

it baffles me when i see self professed christians attacking the concept of trinity calling it pagan originated, satan inspired ideas. I say within myself, these people dont know that they are attacking the very bible which they carry.

In the cause of interacting with ijawkid and friends, i have discovered that they have a problem with the no 3, why must it be 3, they ask, why not 10 or 5 billion. So lets go to the scriptures to see what it says. Tighten your seatbelts, its gonna be a long ride.

First bustop
isaiah 48:16
"Come near to me and hear this: "From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I." Now the Lord Yahweh has sent me, with his Spirit.

The person speaking identifies himself as the first and the last in verse 12, the foundation layer of the heavens and earth in v13. Then in verse 16 he says the Lord Yahweh and his spirit has sent him. So we see the speaker, the lord Yahweh and the spirit. Thats how many 3.

Isaiah 42:1
behold my servant, whom i uphold, mine elect, in whom my soul delighted, i have put my spirit upon him,he shall bring forth Judgement to the gentiles. 3 persons

In Isaiah 61:1 the person sent with the goodnews (gospel) says the lord had anointed him. We also the see the spirit of God upon him. Thats 3 persons

ijawkid: Oboy come and prove the above gibberish with Just a scripture..........I dey wait......

i wonder how yu missed all these

deSika: Now lets go into the scriptures. shall we

THE 'MORE THAN ONE PERSON' NATURE OF GOD

Gen 1:26 And God said let us make man in our image according to our likeness.[why does this verse not read: and God said let him make man in his image according to his likeness, your guess is as good as mine. More than one persons involved yet in verse 27 it says and God created man in his image. My question is why the seemingly inconsistencies, is God trying to tell us something about his nature ]

gen 3:22
...then the lord God said "behold the man has become like one of us

gen 11:7
come let us go down but does not say in verse 8 "so the lords scattered." instead it says "so the lord". How can one lord be 'us'. Or did it happen that the other persons that were beckoned on refused to act with the speaker.
Its only teaching us that there is a more than one person nature about God yet these persons act as one.

The word used for God is Elohim a plural now yet is used as if he is one.

So who are the persons that make up the Elohim

ijawkid: Our argument is who is the one true GOd.....paul has shown it is not made up of 3 persons like you and your ilks propose....he says only the Father is the one GOD........

Now is Jesus and the holy spirit the Father??......

whereas Jesus and the Holyspirit are not the father, the concept of trinity means that there are distinct persons in God. the word 'distinct' means that person 1 is not person 2 and so on. but all the persons are one.

why do we say so
because
the bible calls the father, the word, the holyspirit them one. there are situations where the father says there is no other God beside him, yet the son says same.
there are situatuions where the son is said to be everlasting father, yet the father is also everlasting.
there are situations where the father says he is the first and the last, yet the son says same.
there are situations where the bible says "let us create" yet it merges all the "us" into "and God created".

.

.

lanrexlan: Let me tell you about Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat;This
is describing Allah the Most High and naming Him with whatever He
described and named Himself with and with whatever His
Messenger(pbuh)described and named Him with in the authentic
narrations-and to affirm that for Allaah without resemblance(to the
creation) or likening (to the creation), and without
(false)interpretation (of any of that) or negation(of any of
that).There is nothing like Him and He is the All-Hearer,the
All-Seer.What I am trying to explain is that there's no way you have a
picture of Allah in your mind without giving the resemblance to one His
creature and this will go against tawheed.For example,Allah talked about
his shin in the glorious Quran,have we seen it before? No,but we
believed Allah possessed this quality and it befits Him alone without
giving resemblance to any of his creature or negating its meaning.If you
try to think how Allah's shin looks like,you will definitely think and
give resemblance of Allah's shin to that of a man and that's against
tawheed.There's none comparable to Him.....Peace

pls go back
and read my post again, its a challenge am bringing to you. Will you
take it. What will you do if you see that what Alexis posted is actually
what the hadith said.

deSika: what if what Alexis wrote is correct, what if that is exactly what is
written in the hadith.
1. would you change your position and defend your Muhammad or Allah
2. or would you stick to the highlighted. and by so doing telling us
that a. your hadiths and Muhammad just promoted shirk. b. that you know
what is shirk but your Muhammad does not know, therefore you lanrexlan
is wiser than your Muhammad.

its a challenge from me to you, will you take it.

truthislight: You tell me, does that make any sense to you ?

it still doesnt make sense to you. Then your case is very serious o.

The word became flesh and dwelt among us... Is it not in your bible. When the word became flesh did it stop being the word. If it doesnt still make sense. I dont know what to say again o

truthislight: I dont know why you are drawing what that is not important.

There were angels when God created the earth, and the first person that Yahweh created is Jesus, simple.

Why are you saying that Jesus is Yahweh ? Why not the other angels that Yahweh created after Jesus ?






Where do you get no angel from ?

Did you not read this:

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-7).
.:...............................

See ^ what the the bible says happened up there in the bible and stop imputting your personal opinion.




Nonsense!

This are two separate persons.

ofcourse angels were there, but were not part of the persons that was told 'let us'. Thats what i mean when i say angels were not there.

So you dont agree that there is a 'more than one person' nature of God.

truthislight: I dont know why you are drawing what that is not important.

There were angels when God created the earth, and the first person that Yahweh created is Jesus, simple.

Why are you saying that Jesus is Yahweh ? Why not the other angels that Yahweh created after Jesus ?






Where do you get no angel from ?

Did you not read this:

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-7).
.:...............................

See ^ what the the bible says happened up there in the bible and stop imputting your personal opinion.




Nonsense!

This are two separate persons.

ofcourse angels were there, but were not part of the persons that was told 'let us'. Thats what i mean when i say angels were not there.

So you dont agree that there is a 'more than one person' nature of God.

truthislight: you are having problems with titles, i have shown you that the word God/god is a title that satan, stones even bear, let alone Jesus christ.



see what the bible says:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6).
...........................
The bible calls the son "mighty God".



Because the bible calls satan god:

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:4).
....................

I am not the one calling satan "god".

But the word God get category.



We have Yahweh the almighty God the one that gave his son Jesus power to create as a master worker.

Then Jesus, the son of God, the mighty one, the one called "mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6.



Error! ^
how can the son be the almighty God ? What will the father be called then ?

Did you not read the Exodus 6:3 that Yahweh is the almighty God ?


No. The son of a cow is a cow and the son of a goat is a goat, that is why the son of almighty God Yahweh is called "mighty God", Isaiah 9:6.



Jesus was a powerful spirit person befor coming to earth via a miracle done by the father for him to come as a man with blood to pay the ransom.



The word angel means messenger, if Jesus ever went on a message for the father,
what do you think that makes him ?

Apart from the father Yahweh, Jesus was above all other personage in the univers.

After Jesus faithful service here on earth, he was further elevated by Yahweh as a reward for a faithful service in making the fathers name and will known:

"And again, when he(the father) bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (Hebrews 1:6-9).
.......................

The father annointed the son and exalted the son.



Jesus was and is still Yahweh's master worker.



Error ^

The bible calls Yahweh the almighty God.

And Jesus the mighty God. QED.

the problem with you is that you fail to see that the english translators of the bible have helped you to differentiate the God used in each context. They use capital letters for the true God and small letters for other smaller gods. The verses you brought satan god was written in small whereas in reference to Jesus capital letter is used. Abi you will say you did not notice it.

If i show you where Jesus is called God with capital letters, you will say all of us are god.
If i show you where Jesus is called mighty God you will say mighty almighty bla bla
if i show you where Jesus is called everlasting father, silence
if i show you where Jesus says there is no other God beside him, a typical statement of the father you will still bring up excuse
if i show you were the bible says the person pierced is Yahweh you will say it doesnt make sense
if i showed you acts 20:28 where God purchased the church with his blood, you will say wrong rendition.

Seriously you people need help

Boomark: You don't know what you believe in, you can't boldly answer for you dear trinity ni. Smh!!! But you formulated that 3 persons are in 1 God. You started stammering when i asked you how many persons said "let us create man."

I thought you wanted to use mathematics. Whatever you want to use, be it colour, water, whatsoever theory it is, i will bring it to nothing.

I asked you to tell me whether each person of the trinity is a God or not. You dodged it. That is where una trinity doctrine started having problem.

am sure you know the father is God. Am also sure you know that Jesus is called God with a capital G and mighty God. And yes the holyspirit is God. Question answered.

truthislight: i showed to you that there is a scriptural difference between mighty God and almighty God.

There is a difference between mighty God and almighty God.

If You want to deny it or start lying, good for you, i have done my part.

you are just looking for a way to reduce the status of Jesus. THE father is called God, Jesus is called God. The bible writters help you to differentiate the context by capitalising, they never capitalise God when using it for satan or others. And they place Jesus category of capital God with mighty added to it. JESUS creates, God the father creates. GOD IS to be worshipped ALONE yet Jesus is worshipped. Phew!

truthislight: You are only trying to press on your unscriptural idea that has no bone in the scriptures.

unscriptural ideas. I laugh in japanese. Can you show one unscriptural idea in what you quoted.

There were other people there when the earth was created, simple.

i did not contest this with you. we are talking about the parties involved in creation. No angel partook in creation, therefore they are not part of the 'let us create'

I also showed to you that Jesus was there and Yahweh was there, this two have the power to create, since Yahweh gave Jesus that mandate.

we are on same page on this

What you are arguing for is all in your head and have no scriptural basis.

There were different people there to ensure that that discussion ensued. simple.

there were different people there agreed, does not mean everybody there took part in the creation of man. The person saying let us create could not possibly be talking to persons without ability to create. That rules out the angels as they cant create man. Imagine me talking to the chairs in my room 'let us eat'. The fact that the person speaking says 'let us make' shows 3 things
1. There are more than one persons that can create, and these persons were be spoken to in genesis
2. The persons involved are one [because of the progression from "in our image" to "in his image"]
3. GOD is the only spirit being with the ability to create. (I dont mean the title god, i mean the one high God). So if there are more than one persons involved in creation, it only means there are more than one person in God.

truthislight: i showed to you that there is a scriptural difference between mighty God and almighty God.

There is a difference between mighty God and almighty God.

If You want to deny it or start lying, good for you, i have done my part.

yet we need to start from somewhere. As the bible has called Jesus mighty God. Can you call him that

the word is el gibbor, exactly what the father is called. Even if you want to deny elgibbor will you deny everlasting father also. I thought God is the 'everlasting' father how come Jesus is now the everlasting father if not for the simple fact that he has same essence with the father.

truthislight: i showed to you that there is a scriptural difference between mighty God and almighty God.

There is a difference between mighty God and almighty God.

If You want to deny it or start lying, good for you, i have done my part.

yet we need to start from somewhere. As the bible has called Jesus mighty God. Can you call him that

the word is el gibbor, exactly what the father is called. Even if you want to deny elgibbor will you deny everlasting father also

shdemidemi: I believe Philippians 2:5-8 makes everything you claim Christ really is, is not all He really is-
New International Version (NIV)
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!


He made himself nothing, so when you now use what he made himself as a doctrine you would be definitely wrong.

i just like this. Its just straight to the point

truthislight: You did not give answer to the question if Jesus as spirit person can pay for the ransom of mankind ?

is it that you just love to argue.
Was Jesus ever a spirit being. You would answer yes.
Was Jesus ever a man. You would answer yes. The spirit being Jesus and the man Jesus are they different people, are they not the same person.

ijawkid: In deuteronomy 6:4 the tetragrammaton was used........and so you shouldn't even be having Lord there......

Its suppose to read:: Yahweh our God is 1 Yahweh.....

But let me keep you company....

Do you knw the reason why Jesus is called the one Lord in 1 corinthians 8:6??.....

Acts 2:36

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of
this: God has made this Jesus, whom you
crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”


The Father made Jesus Lord over man and the church....and so he is the 1 Lord while the Father is the 1 GOD....

But why are u even arguing when it is bleedn obvious that the Father is the 1 GOD and not a combination of Jesus and the holy spirit??....

You blind??......

the father is one God, does not remove the fact that the son is one God, the Spirit is one God. In the end you have one God.