₦airaland Forum

BluntTheApostle:
It is one of the oldest. I have never disputed that. But it is not the oldest, neither is it the first Church or the one that Christ talked about in Jerusalem.

Whether it is the oldest or not is not even the issue. It is the way the Catholics tie it to the credibility of the Church. Being the oldest Church does not even mean that it is the True Church of Christ.

The Church of Rome and the Church in Jerusalem were both Catholic churches. So the Catholic church is still the First

shadeyinka:
Please when you[/color] quote, do it in context

1 Timothy 3:15
I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the household of God, [color=#990000]which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


So, what is the church in this context?
a. The Building
b. The Assembly of Children of God (household of God)
c. The Apostles (at least, they are still alive)
d. Traditions

Certainly not the building
And not the apostles
And not traditions
But, the Assembly (house hold) of Gods children

Your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit.

In other words, the church is NOT the system of leadership of the people of God.

Did anybody say the church is that?


Isnt Mary a human being?
Did Jesus also died for Mary?

If Jesus died also for Mary, then Mary is just another sinner saved by Grace like you and me. Marys intercession is thus worth nothing.

Not a single Apostle taught this

For u its worthless but the early Church Believed in the Communion of saints. Check Nicene creed



This is true for everyone who is a descendant of Adam and Eve.

However, you didn't answer my questions. You answered someone else's questions.
My questions were about the Roman catholic clergies regalia, the use of Latin rather than Greek or Hebrew etc

I see u have a problem with Latin ,yet u speak English rather than Greek or Hebrew

4
To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1 Corinthians 12:7

To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
1 Corinthians 12:8

to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1 Corinthians 12:9

to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:10
All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as He wills.
1 Corinthians 12:11

shadeyinka:
Can you please answer the questions?

There are four of them

1. The Bible says that the church and not the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of truth
if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
1 Timothy 3:15

2. Nobody says u can't go to God directly or that u must go through Mary. But there is nothing wrong in intercession as is evident in our daily life. Pastor prays for members instead of members praying for themselves. And Just as Mary did in the wedding at Cana
3.


If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:10

shadeyinka:
Sorry!
We know you as Roman catholic just as we know the Greek Orthodox church as greek

Check the dressing of the Papacy; does it in any way resemble Jewish dressings?

The scriptures were translated from Greek (common language spoken by commoners) to LATIN (spoken by Romans) . The church of Rome neither spoke Hebrew nor Greek; they spoke Latin.

No! It resembles Roman Aristocratic dressings.

Sorry Pls educate me:
The Anglicans called you Roman Catholic church and not Jerusalem Catholic Church: Why?

Sorry to add, we know you and you know yourselves as PROTESTANTS. all u do is protest just like Satan who protested against God

shadeyinka:
Sorry!
We know you as Roman catholic just as we know the Greek Orthodox church as greek

Check the dressing of the Papacy; does it in any way resemble Jewish dressings?

The scriptures were translated from Greek (common language spoken by commoners) to LATIN (spoken by Romans) . The church of Rome neither spoke Hebrew nor Greek; they spoke Latin.

No! It resembles Roman Aristocratic dressings.

Sorry Pls educate me:
The Anglicans called you Roman Catholic church and not Jerusalem Catholic Church: Why?

What concerns me. We call ourselves Catholic
Have u ever seen Something like St **** Roman Catholic church? Its always St **** Catholic Church
Besides not all Catholics follow the Roman (Latin) Liturgy
We have the Syriac Catholic
Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, Malankara Catholic etc. All the same

shadeyinka:
The First Church was:
"Jerusalem Catholic Church"
Much latter came the
"Roman Catholic Church"

Didn't Jesus ask His disciples to tary in Jerusalem until they are given the power of the Holy Spirit?

Well then, the First Church was The Catholic church
The Church was always referred to as Catholic ,it was the Anglicans that added the prefix Roman

BluntTheApostle:
Bro, you missed the whole picture

There have always been a plurality of Popes. As a matter of fact, all the Bishops used to be called popes.

The Oriental did not split from the Catholic Church. There was not even a Catholic Church then. Just Bishops who were called popes.

My dear . Pope is another word for papa. Even the bishop of Alexandria was called pope. The issue here is Primacy and all agreed even the Council of Chalcedony agreed on the Primacy of the Pope of Rome as first amongst equals
If u say there was no Catholic Church by 451AD, why then does the Nicene creed which was proclaimed 126 yrs before Chalcedony in 325 AD. The creed which the orientals still profess today. Why does it say " we believe in One Holy CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC church
Why does St Ignatius of antioch who died 108 AD write " wherever the Bishop is There is the CATHOLIC CHURCH "?

Truth may hurt but its still the truth

BluntTheApostle:
The first and only True Church was established by Christ Himself. Early Christians mostly met in one another's houses and a gathering of believers was called a church. These churches were named after cities, for example, the Church in Antioch, which is believed to be the first Gentile church.

During this period, the Church was one and lived as one and worshipped God in spirit and in truth.

However the churches suffered a division in 451 AD in the Chalcedon Council. It was in this Council, that the churches split into The Oriental Orthodox Churches (which today still behave like the Apostles and in general, the earliest Christians) and the "Western Churches".

The Western Churches further split during the Schism of 1054 into The Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox churches.

So, you can see that the Roman Catholic Church is not the first Church, neither can anyone prove that it was the Church that Christ Himself established in Jerusalem.

U tried but u are still not getting the Clear picture
The Oriental orthodoxy split from the Catholic church because they didn't submit to the teaching of the Church as Confirmed by Pope Leo. This proves there was already a Pope in Rome and a Catholic church already in existence by the time of the Chalcedony Council and they split from it. Still the Catholic church was not western only. For only the see of Rome is western. Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, Jerusalem were all in the Eastern Roman empire and Schism only arose from Alexandria by 451AD. So after 451 the church in Alexandria was split into two, A faction loyal to the Catholic church and another known as the Orientals .but the Church was still both east and west until 1054 when the great schism split the Church into East (Greek speaking) and West(Latin speaking). Now both are truely ancient and truely Apostolic because they were all founded by the Apostles but lost communion mainly due to internal politics. However Pockets of the east returned to communion with Rome after the council of Florence in 1449. Reason u have the Ukrainian Catholic Church ,The Syriac Catholic, the Maronite Catholic, the Malankara Catholic Churches. now all these Churches are in Union with Rome under the Pope but do not use the Roman Liturgy, hence the are Catholics but not Roman catholic. Same faith, same doctrines,different liturgy . the Catholic Church is not just the Latin Churches but all Churches east and west in union with the chair of peter

nwamehn:
So, u mean that many major Churches of the East which claim to have been founded by the apostles: eg Antioch by Paul and others; Alexandria by Mark; Greek Orthodox church in Byzantium by Andrew (which was then under Heraclea, Turkey rulership before Constantine moved to Byzantium); Cyprus by Barnabas; Ethiopia by Matthew; India by Thomas; Edessa in eastern Syria by Thaddeus; Armenia by Bartholomew; Georgia by Simon the Zealot; Corinthian church by Paul, were all under the Catholic church? U mean to tell me that the church in Antioch in Syria where the followers of Christ were first called Christians was a Roman Catholic church and it was under a Pope in Rome then shebi? So, as at the time the followers of Christ were first referred to as Christians at the church at Antioch in Syria, who was the Pope in Rome that was overseeing their activities in Antioch in Syria then? 
If u read and understood that Great Schism well, u wouldn't be saying all these.

For u to have said that there was nothing like Jewish Christianity shows that u have not read well. Pls, just google Jewish Christianity or Judeo-Christianity and educate urself.

U may also wish to find out what the group Judaizing was all about and whether they existed before Roman Catholic church or not by using Google too.

Point is, Greek and so many other Eastern Orthodox churches that were founded by different apostles as I listed above, Judeo-Christianity ie Jewish Christianity, and Judaizing (not Judaism) had existed before Catholic church was founded, but Jesus never founded any of these churches.

Have a nice day as u do ur research. I have no time to argue.

U are not even Orthodox. How u claim to know their own history more than them. Antioch is under the see of Peter not Paul. And yes they all looked to the Church in Rome for guidance and all of them Profess to Believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Argue with history
During the Council of Chalcedony in 451 AD When the Confusion of the Nature of Christ, it was Pope Leo I statement that ended the matter.
After Pope Leo's Time was read. All the orthodox exclaimed
" This is the Faith of the Church, This is the faith of the fathers, So we Orthodox do believe. Peter has Spoken through Leo, so we orthodox do believe. Anathema to those who don't believe"
And that settled it. Those who opposed were anathemised and Excommunicated, these are the ones that are today known as Oriental Orthodox

And yes Christ did establish a Church

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18

nwamehn:
I wished u would have the time to list those many more u meant.
But to the points u highlighted here:
1. Do u know why that bowing to images is not really enough reason to discredit the Catholic church? The reason is that we cannot as we ar now confirm that it wasn't God that ordered them to mould those images they bow to. We can only condemn them if we ar sure that it wasn't God that instructed them to mould those images, look up to or bow to them. Numbers 21 vs 6-9 shows where God instructed Moses to mould an image - a serpent such that whoever that was bitten would look up to it and be healed. Exodus 25 vs 18-22 shows where God commanded Moses to mould two winged creatures on the ark of covenant which was kept in the temple all through.
My point is this, if God doesn't expressly give u the command to mould any image or look up or bow to it, then once u do it, u have sinned against the second commandment, but if He is the one that commands u to do that as He did to Moses on those two occasions I referred to above, then u didn't sin. Question is, has the Catholic church told us that it wasn't God that commanded them to mould all those images? How then can we condemn them based on what we don't know yet?

2. Christ is the mediator between us and God the Father, Catholic church didn't elevate Mary to be the mediator between us and God the Father. Christ never placed any person as a mediator between us and Christ. Catholic church only included Mary to mediate between us and Christ which is just an ordinary waste of time to me since Christ said we can approach Him directly, it doesn't mean they ar now a false church for approaching Mary for her to approach Christ. Paul said in 1 Cor 11 vs 1, follow me as I follow Christ. He didn't say follow Christ directly, which was what Christ had preached all His life before He died, but he said follow me as I follow Christ, so does it mean that the Corinthian church that he wrote that letter to follow him as he followed Christ was a false church?

3. The third point u made is one valid point here. Peter wasn't the first Pope. Bible didn't even record that Peter visited Rome, whether for a short period or to establish a church there. Bible also didn't record that Jesus established any church let alone establishing Catholic church. And other churches also came before Catholic church emerged eg Jewish Christianity, Judaizing (not Judaism), Greek Orthodox church etc. So, even if Peter were to be the leader of the first church based on Matthew 16 vs 18, then it could have been any of these churches older than the Catholic church not the Catholic church.
So, boss, u ar very right on this one.

4. For ur fourth point, Catholic church wasn't the first people to create such divisions making some people clergy and others laity and they ar not also the only church doing that today. Paul also did that in the Bible in 1 Tim 3 where he gave separate rules to guide bishops and apostles aside his general rules of Christianity given in his epistles.
Paul also divided the church into men and women for a reason, 1 Cor 14 vs 34-35, he said that women should not talk in church but be silent always, maybe he did it because of the issues they were having in the Corinthian church then, but remember that there is no division that is worse than that. No wonder, some modern day churches don't even obey it.
So, boss, creating division in the church is not enough reason to see the catholic church as a false church because Paul also did same, and so many present day churches differentiate between the pastoral team and the rest of the congregation. They even give the pastoral team elevated seats in some churches separate from the rest of the congregation.

Because the bible didn't record peter ever being In Rome. It automatically means he didn't go there?. Testimonies from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century Christains prove that peter died in Rome.
There is no Church that was before Catholic church. Even the Greek orthodox Separated from it, Read about the Great Schism of 1054 AD. There was nothing like Jewish Christianity, we had the Church in Jerusalem which was the headquarters of the Catholic church, until the Jews rebelled against the Roman Empire and Jerusalem was totally destroyed together with the Temple Just as Jesus prophecied . before this Peter had already left the Church in Jerusalem Which he formerly led before his arrest by Herod and release by the Angel, James took over the leadership of the Church in Jerusalem. Peter sojourned in Antioch and finally Came to Rome where together with Paul he suffered martyrdom. After the Fall of Jerusalem and the death of all the Apostles. The headquarters of Christianity Shifted to 3 petrine sees. Rome , Antioch and Alexandria . These were recorded by 2nd Century Christains. Read Iranaeus of Lyon, Ignatius of Antioch, Tertuillian etc. Even when the so called pentarchy was formed After Constantine allowed tolerance from Christianity. Rome , Constantinople ,Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem. The See of Rome was always recognised as Primus Inter pares( First Amongst Equals).

BluntTheApostle:
Ignorance. The Roman Catholic Church is not the first Church!!!

Moreover, the Roman Catholic Church is a false church.

Please I m interested I'm knowing the first church, which church is that?

nwamehn:
Roman Catholic wasn't the first church, I agree.
But, Roman Catholic being a false church, may I know why u say so, boss?

Tell us the first church then?

Starting from no 1. What did scripture say is the pillar and foundation of truth? The church or the bible?

salvation101:
any biblical proof?

Jesus ll not ask me for Biblical proof during judgement. It's either right or wrong .

salvation101:
keep Deceiving ursef u hear? So Peter was tge one who introduced u to bowing to Mary image

Peter would have definitely bowed before Mary as a sign of respect and not worship. So yes we imitate the humility of the prince of the Apostles

Et unan sanctam CATHOLICA et APOSTOLICA ecclesiam
The only church truely Catholic and truely Apostolic.
The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of truth

Emmanystone:
I never said i know, you just implied it now. Thanks dear.


Read your Bible sir, Jesus is coning soon, if he comes and meets you on the wrong side of the road, you be sorry.

He came like the lamb to be killed, when he comes back, He shall be like the Lion who Roars against those who are opposed to Him.

Do not be caught unprepared. My dear, you can't stand hellfire o.

Unfortunately you are not Jesus. Leave the judgement to him and get thee behind us Satan for the gates of hell shall never prevail

salvation101:
Catholics wants to be seen as the true church even with their extrabiblical practices. Check out the Christian joining forces with freeze to fight the pentecostals, most are catholics(nairaland as a case study).

We can't be seen as, we are the true church of Christ built by Christ on the rock of peter

Emmanystone:
Lolzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Your understanding of scriptures is backward.

You have a problem, u think u know but u are so empty

Born again is not alter call, it is baptism period

Emmanystone:
Catholicism is a distinct religion with Mary as her goddess and the Pope as her high priest. She is not a Christian faith.

She is Hellenistic and pretending it is Christian doesn't change that. By her fruits we know her.

Babylon the great, the great harlot. Come out if her or perish with her.

I love Mary . she led me to Christ
I love the Catholic church the true bride of Christ
I feel pity for you and other Protestants who are rebels

PSTEMMA1960:
and how are u sure that nobody forced him？many rev fathers a commiting immorality every day, i know of one that was friending one in my compound..

the bible never asked anyone to be single, the only thing the bible said is that u want to be a bishop u must nt have more than one wife..1timothy 3:2

12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it."
Matthew 19:12

Have u read the writings of the church fathers
Ignatius of Antioch
Iranaeus of Caesarian
Justin martyr etc

myproperty:
I am crying about the murdering of people caused and initiated by the catholic church.

Let those that never knew just Google the horror of the catholic church. See the number of Christians this church killed in 1200years

He just told u and I will second it that Tyndale was killed by Protestant Henry V111 and Jan Hus killed by the state but u want to believe ur own concorted history. Continue .

Themandator:
Pentecostals were the first sets of Christians after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. .... Afterwards , the catholic religion came on board and then Martin chanced in the scripture and discovered a gap between the church doctrine and the scripture and turned a Protestant against those doctrines and traditions.

Catholics were first formerly Pentecostals until the persecution of the church by the Romans led to a compromise by some of the Christian leaders which became Catholic church.

Protestant s are former Catholics whereas , Pentecostals are original Christians

What you are saying is that Contrary to Jesus's word that gates of hell at a time spanning 1500 yes did prevail over His church

This is coming from people who condemn the Catholic church for using icons and images

KingSango:
There is no Satan in African traditional religion that is an Eurasian concept.

We have no equal to Almighty Olodumare in our faith. All our royal bloodlines descend back to the first son of Heaven, Almighty Obatala, who created 8 families of Bachwezi/Naga people. Africa is our home not Rome's.

Ase

Love Sango

Jesus I know and only him.
And he created everything

KingSango:
There is no Satan in African traditional religion that is an Eurasian concept.

We have no equal to Almighty Olodumare in our faith. All our royal bloodlines descend back to the first son of Heaven, Almighty Obatala, who created 8 families of Bachwezi/Naga people. Africa is our home not Rome's.

Ase

Love Sango

Did I say Rome is our home?
I only said Rome is Eternal

KingSango:
The Roman Catholic Church is the gates of hell.

Rome is behind many human atrocities daily.

U are only working for Satan the Accuser of the church
Rome is Eternal

Only goes to tell u the Catholic church is the true church of Christ. The devil is fighting it through the Protestants, Orthodox, media,Islam, free masons , and now Atheists and irreligious. No other church receives such scrutiny

THE GATES OF HELL WILL NEVER PREVAIL