₦airaland Forum

Ubenedictus:
Job.14:22: “But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.” Job makes the distinction saying the flesh is upon him and the soul is within him.

The same Hebrew expression translated soul in Job 14:22 is found in Job 33:20, where it says that the "soul" abhors dainty meat. Now tell me, does the conscious whatever which you claim exists within a man accept or abhor food? Does it eat?

Again, that very Hebrew expression is found in Proverbs 7:23 and Exod. 21:30, where it is translated "life". It is even said to be redeemed with money. Can your own version of soul be bought with money?

Again, that same Hebrew expression translated "soul" in Job 14:22 is found in Isa. 29:8, where the "soul" is said to be hungry for food, and to have appetite? Does the "soul" which you claim exists within a man hunger for food, or have appetite?

Can you see that the Bible does not support your claim of a conscious soul that exists within a body?

Ubenedictus:
Job 34:14-15: “If He should set His heart on it, if He should gather to Himself Spirit (His breath?) and His breath, All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.” Here both breath and spirit are distinguished otherwise one would be gathering to himself spirit and his spirit or breath and his breath.
Ps. 19:7: “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the BREATH, the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;” The conversion is to ones soul, their inner being so it can rule over their body.
2 Cor. 7:1: “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and BREATH (spirit),” Does this mean we take breath mints?

The word in Psa. 19:7 is napes, which is soul. Don't invent things to support your baseless claims.

GOD tells us categorically in Gen. 2:7 that a living soul is made up of body and breath. When did GOD add a soul into the body?

Ubenedictus:
Haha,

You link also say that the jewish canonisation process ended in 200AD and that much of the 'writtings' were canonised in 70AD which means the jews didnt have a fixed canon during d time of Jesus and Apostle and the church used its own canon. That means paul and Jesus and all the Apostle were very much at liberty to use sirach and d other books and they did.

You throw your sense into the bin when it serves your purpose of defending a baseless claim.

If sirach was never accepted as Scripture, and certainly not around the time of Jesus or Paul, how can a right-thinking human being suppose that Jesus or Paul would make use of sirach as Scripture?

GOD, what is this world turning into? Humans are degenerating every day.

Ubenedictus, this is the Wikipedia link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon#Jewish_canons

It is stated categorically and unequivocally there that Sirach "was ultimately not accepted into Hebrew canon."

Therefore neither Paul, nor the early Christians used that uninspired book. And when Paul says "scripture", we know that sirach is not included.

bobo65:
Ill go for the plus cos iv not used it before


But for a 4G phone, I think the u20 has a mediocre battery

Moreover, leagoo m8 pro is cheaper than the u20

U20 is smaller, flatter and cuter

Ill get it next month and drop a review

Many users have complained that Leagoo M8 heats up. I don't know if the pro version has that issue too.

bobo65:
Phone itself is a beauty

Which would you go for: oukitel u20 plus or leagoo m8 pro?

tlanry:
I ordered the leagoo m8 pro yesterday. nice spec

When your phone arrives, be sure to do a review of the battery life and gaming performace, and tell us too whether the phone heats up or not.

PastorAIO:
I think a big part of the problem here, and generally in threads like this is that many people are unaware that the bible contains a variety of theologies, and a variety of cosmologies.

You run into the problems you do when you think that the bible is coherent all over. It is neither coherence nor cogent.

The Bible is actually and objectively coherent all over, and that is what we Bible Christians believe.

What is obvious is that some incorrect interpretations which seem to make some portions of the Bible contradict other portions must give way for correct interpretations.

Ubenedictus, here is a quote from Wikipedia

There are numerous citations of Sirach within the Talmud, even though the book was not ultimately accepted into the Hebrew canon.

Continue deceiving yourself.

Ubenedictus:
D new testament quoted the greek scriptures not hebrew, and the quram cave show that those books were also part of d hebrew bible before 100AD

Oga Paul did not quote Greek Scriptures, neither did he quote sirach. Continue deceiving yourself. It is there on Wikipedia for you to read and stop lying. Sirach and all those uninspired books were never part of Hebrew canon.

Where are the users of Leagoo M8 pro? Come and do review for us nah

jnrbayano

DoctorAlien:
I wouldn't like to bore you but remember that Revelations 13:8 calls Jesus the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. But we know that Jesus was slain about 4000 years into the existence of the world. So in essence, anything that must surely take place is seen as done already in GOD's eyes. That is why Jesus calls Abraham, Isaac and Jacob "living".

Ubenedictus:
Actually sirac.... was part of scripture that paul was talking abt. the early church didnt use only 39 books.

Who is feeding you these lies? Sirac whatever was not and is not part of the original Hebrew Bible.

While the transfiguration doesn’t directly give us information on the state of the dead, it retains theological significance nonetheless. When Peter recounted his experience in 2 Peter 1:16–18, he writes that he witnessed Christ’s coming at that time. In other words, he understood the experience to represent the return of Jesus Christ. Moses and Elijah represent the two classes of God’s people who will be present at that miraculous event: Moses represents the “dead in Christ” who rise to new life, and Elijah represents “those who are alive and remain” who will be translated to heaven and eternal life without ever experiencing death in the first place (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Understanding that the transfiguration is a representation of the second coming of Christ also helps us understand Christ’s promise that “some standing here … shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God,” spoken a few days before the transfiguration (Luke 9:27).

cc: shadeyinka

shadeyinka,

On the mount of transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were present. Moses was resurrected by Jesus and taken to Heaven(Jude 9). Elijah was taken alive to Heaven. They came down from Heaven to that mount of transfiguration.

I wouldn't like to bore you but remember that Revelations 13:8 calls Jesus the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. But we know that Jesus was slain about 4000 years into the creation of the world. So in essence, anything that must surely take place is seen as done already in GOD's eyes. That is why Jesus calls Abraham, Isaac and Jacob "living".

shadeyinka:
Even though, I do not want to be drawn into your argument, can you please interpret this:

Mark 12:26–27
26 But concerning the dead, that they nrise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Pls combine it with what happened at the Mount of Transfiguration.

What did Jesus say they were mistaken about?

Jesus was telling the Jews that in the eyes of GOD, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are as good and living in GOD's eyes, because they are destined for the first resurrection which is for the holy and blessed.(Rev. 20)

Bear in mind that part of Jesus' audience then were the Saduccees, who did not believe in the resurrection. So, Jesus effectually dealt a blow to their incorrect beliefs by telling that Abraham will live again.

Ubenedictus:
heheh,
this is what happen when people do not have a complete bible.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteouness:" 2 Tim. 3:16

When Paul says "scriptures", he refers to the Hebrew Bible(the law, the prophets and the psalms, which is essentially the OT). Paul says that even the OT alone is sufficient for doctrine and instruction in righteousness.

You get it? So all those nonsense sirach and maccabees and tobith and whatnot are neither profitable for doctrine, nor for instruction in righteousness.

italo:
Mary, the Mother of God

"But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother...?" Matt. 12:48

"For whosoever shall do will of my Father which is in Heaven, the same is my ... mother" Matt. 12:50

"...My mother and brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it." Luke 8:21

So, why are you not worshiping all the good women in the NT, and indeed every woman that does GOD's will, because Jesus calls them His mother?

easymancfc:
Question for you...
what happens if a person dies in an explosion is his soul also blown to pieces with his body since they can't be separated... do the pieces of guts and bones and blood contain smaller pieces of the soul in them...

what if a person is eaten by a shark, is his soul eaten with the flesh too, when the shark defecates, is the soul part of the faeces too.. since they can't be separated...

Your questions assume a premise: that the soul is different from the body. Gen. 2:7 tells that soul = body + breath. So, when a person is blown to pieces, the spirit(breath) which GOD gave returns to Him, while the body returns to dust.

Ubenedictus:
hehehe

You are cherry picking are you aware d bible also translates soul as dead body?

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead (nephesh, psuche) among his people" (Lev. 21:1).

Surely the soul can die. A soul is simply a life. Isn't it very clear from Gen. 2:7 that a soul is not a sort of thing that escapes the body when a person dies?

The Bible calls fishes and animals souls too. Does it mean that they have a conscious form which exits their body at death?

Ubenedictus:
Ecclesiastes 12:7
New International Version
and the dust returns to the ground it came
from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. You need to read the bible more.

The bible says that after you die, you body goes to dust but you SPIRIT goes back to God.

On the last day God will raise the body from the dust and put back the spirit.

I want to correct the first mistake you made: the Bible doesn't call it "my" or "your" spirit; it calls it "the" spirit. The spirit belongs to GOD.

What then is that spirit? We can be sure that it is not a conscious being. The spirit that returns to GOD is simply the breath of life which He gave in Genesis 2:7. That spirit + body = soul, Gen. 2:7 tells us.

"All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of GOD is in my nostrils;" Job 27:3

Job points out that the spirit of GOD is in His nostrils. Surely the spirit is not a conscious being, because the only thing in our nostrils is breath.

More blows to your erroneous beliefs, easymancfc:

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." Psa. 115:17

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psa. 6:5

"For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth." Isa. 38:18

It seems GOD knew that many people will misinterpret the message He would pass through Peter and erroneously claim that Christ went to preach to spirits of dead people, and so He spoke through Isaiah that dead people cannot hope for GOD's truth. Now if that is the case that the dead cannot hope for GOD's truth, How could it be that Jesus went to preach this truth to dead people?

easymancfc:
now you're trying to twist scripture... it clearly says Jesus "preached to" and where there is a preacher... there is a listener... of course it was done in the spirit because it didn't happen on earth... the point Is... THEY WERE CONSCIOUS PERIOD
.

The Bible said that Christ, through the Spirit, preached unto the spirits in prison "when once the longsuffering of GOD waited IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, WHILE THE ARK WAS A PREPARING..." 1 Pet. 3:18-20

How clear does it get?

easymancfc:
I DON SEE SOMETHING TODAY.. A PERSON USING OLD TESTAMENT VIEW OF DEAD TO DISPROVE NEW TESTAMENT...
THE POINT IS JOB DIDN'T HAVE THE REVELATION THAT THE AUTHOR OF HEBREWS, OR MATHEW OR PETER HAD PERIOD...
again I emphasize
Moses was conscious, the cloud of witnesses are conscious, the 24 elders are conscious etc

This is GOD's view of the dead, not OT view. You know that Moses is the only person we're told GOD resurrected and took to Heaven.

easymancfc, the Bible passage in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20. The preaching was done "by the Spirit" (verse 18) in Noah's day--to people who were then living (verses 19, 20). The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (See Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6, 7; 61:1; and Luke 4:18.)

easymancfc:
point 1: Ecclesiastes 9:10 is the old testament which happened before the resurrection...

I don't understand: did Eccl. 9:10 stop being true in the NT?

point 2: Ecclesiastes 9:6-12 talks about them not being aware of what happens "under the sun" not that they have no consciousness...

The Bible says there is no knowledge of any sort in the grave.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12

easymancfc, this disproves your claim that some people like the OT heroes some how rose up to go to Heaven.

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Eccl. 9:10

easymancfc, there is no knowledge in the grave, GOD tells us. Paul himself tells us the manner in which we will be with the Lord(see 1 Thess. 4:16-17). How can that statement "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" make sense if Paul has been with the Lord before His second coming? The problem lies in the version from which you quoted, which twisted what Paul was really saying in Phil. 1:21-24.

Moreover, Christ said that He will come again to take His people to Himself, so that they can be where He is. Christ does not say that His people will go to Him at death. Paul agrees too in 1 Thess. 4:16-17.

easymancfc:
I don't deny the General resurrection at the end.. but I reconcile all the passages together.. at the end of time our souls will be united with our bodies when Jesus comes... that I believe... but to believe in the Soul sleep when we clearly session activities of Souls of dead people like those mentioned in Hebrews 12:1, or spirits in heaven In Hebrews 12:23 or the 24.elders in rev 5:3 or Moses in math 17 or the martyrs in Rev 6 or the great multitude of rev 7:9

You must find another interpretation for the verses in Revelation, because Jesus said He would COME AGAIN to take His people to Himself, so that they will be where He is, and not that His people go to Him, maybe at death. You have not shown me where the Bible says that a soul leaves the body when a person dies.

easymancfc:
To your first question.. Jesus is the one who gives eternal life or at least he is the way to eternal life... see John 14... and he said to his disciples that he is going to prepare a place for them... see see John 14:2-3... so when he ascended that's when heaven was made open and like 1 Peter 3 says he went to preach to the souls in prison...

don't forget the good thief.. Jesus said... today you will be with me in paradise ... or Stephen who saw heaven opened at his death...

Why didn't you quote the whole of John 14:3? Jesus told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them. He then told them "I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO ME, THAT WHERE I AM, THERE YE MAY BE ALSO." In the light of this, how can anyone claim that Mary is in Heaven? Has Jesus come again?

When Jesus resurrected, He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father(John 20:17). How can this statement be true if Jesus went to Heaven with the thief?

Jesus assured the people of His day, “...thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14). Again, He said, “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matthew 16:27). There is no equivocation here. In simple, direct language Jesus declared that no one would be rewarded until the resurrection takes place at His second coming. This means that none of the righteous dead have gone to heaven so far. All are waiting in their graves for the judgment and the end of the world. Almost the last words of the Bible confirm this fact. “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his works shall be” (Revelation 22:12).

So Mary is not in Heaven now, because the resurrection of the just has not happened.