₦airaland Forum

Drogba and Gevonho were eaten by Oboabuna and Omerou in AFCON. Sunday Mba ate Tiote.

You get such things in football.

coogar: elampiro, what's your take on suarez this season? how much is he worth in today's market & do you think he's the best player in the league so far?

How does this relate to the argument?

Someone was trying to tell Toure is a rubbish player. I reminded him that he has performed greatly for two clubs in two different leagues. He's not a fluke. He is a great great great midfielder.

Meanwhile, Suarez has to prove himself in two clubs and two leagues 'cos we know Torres traveled that road before.

Ferguson also didn't take kindly to Rooney's suggestions as to which players United might sign.

Playmaker Mesut Ozil is currently delighting Arsenal fans with his sparkling form. And according to Ferguson, the German was a player Rooney thought United should have bought in 2010, before he joined Real Madrid from Werder Bremen.

Ferguson told Rooney in no uncertain terms that it was "none of his business who we should have gone for."

The above was said to be from SAF autobiography.

Source: CNN

Jones is going to be a phenomenal player,' said Ferguson.

'He has a fantastic influence, no matter where he plays.

'He has an instinct for the game and a drive about him.

'I have no idea where his best position is. He could play anywhere on the pitch. But he will be one of the best players we have ever had.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2313536/Phil-Jones-Old-Trafford-great--Sir-Alex-Ferguson.html

dayokanu: The same Yaya Toure that was eaten raw by diminutive 5ft 7 Phillip Lahm in midfield at Etihad

Yaya Toure ko Sule Ibrahim ni

Yaya Toure is a champions league winner.

dademola: i want to ask u; even if u were to hav jones starting week in week out for man utd, will our mf issues be resolved?? Wots your ideal midfield combo, if i may ask... And why??

Jones is not Xavi, he is not Paul Scholes, he is not Pirlo, he is not Toure, he is not Edgar Davids. Starting Jones week in week out is the best for us under the circumstance we find our selves. If Carrick or Fellaini can take command I won't be calling for Jones. My worry is the way we are bullied around. Jones overall play has also improved and he drives the ball down some decent yards. He is passig well too and not afraid to receive passes under pressure.

My idea midfield combo:
In their hey days
1. Yaya Toure .......... Mascherano
2. Zidane ...............Edgar Davids

League table.

1st to 8th ........ Mehn.......

Liverpool 5th.

If we beat Spurs, it will be a massive booster again.

dademola: in ur opinion, jones is the solution to our mF problems, isnt it?

How does this relate to my statement?

Leyqute: At the moment Jones protects the midfield and prevents teams from running us roughshod better than Carrick.

It looks like you played serious competitive football. Forget those guys arguing theory and what they learnt from PE13.

The big teams have doubled their effort after sensing Man United's shadow. Small teams now being sent to their proper positions.

@Oghos1 what do you mean by beautiful football? Some of our best games these season where matches with Jones in our midfield. Norwich in the league cup, Leverkusen away, Aston Villa away, West Ham, etc.

The problem with some of you guys here is that you don't look at our situation to analyse our games. You want us to play like Dortmund, like Barca, like Bayern Munich, like Leverkusen etc. You have forgotten to look at the league we play. What works is in Laliga might fail in Serie A. Even those teams don't even shadow mark or delay tackles.



If you want to watch beautiful soccer go and watch South Africa league. Lol soft football and free flowing.

Oghos1: who said carrick has not delivered?
That he is not at last season's level YET does NOT mean he is playing badly

so its jones that's pulling d team now. And no long lord rooney. Ok.
. He doesn't need to prove nada.
. Then u hate good football and in time, u will stop watching football cuz that's d current trend.

current form ke.
Di maria was in blistering form at d beginning of d season but still got benched immediately bale came backfrom injury
No matter how many goals welbeck scores b4 rvp returns he will still be rvp's understudy this season.

My point- some tinz are just way more than form. If a player is better he is better form or no form.(To a large extent tho)
Form normally works when d two players in question are in close proximity in terms of ability.
Lyk jones/evans/smalling in central defence.
Carrick and jones for d CM role are not close at all.
Jones shouldn't be more than an emergency option
Or why do u think fabio or buttner are yet to displace evra.

1. RVP vs Welbeck is not a good example. RVP is playing his best football ever currently (the last two seasons till now). RVP will will walk into starting 11 of many top teams.

2. We are not arguing about who is carrying the team. I am showing you results we have achieved with Jones in the midfield. He is one of those who have played a vital role in helping to keep a high score rate and keeping the pressure from De Gea. He helps so much to restrict the opponents time on the ball. It's vital.

3. Contrary to what you think, it is shadow marking that is being outdated. Apart from Man United, which other team leave marking till ball gets into their 18 box area? You allow opponents to flow freely n your area for minutes without a serious challenge?

4. You use Di Maria and Bale as an example abi? What about Torres for Chelsea? What about Ashley Cole? A right back (right footed player) has been benching Cole.

AZPILICUETA.

5. Barcelona a tip tap playing side tackle very very high and chase vigorously once they lose possession.
Lastly, what has Carrick delivered this season?

Oghos1: So we shuld forget abt all d things carrick can do and bench him for jones- d all conquering and perfectly complete midfielder cuz we do not have who will complement carrick perfectly for now.
Nice.

I can't blive am even arguing carrick v jones in CM.
These are d sort of things u laff off and shake your head.

What if you play him over several games and he still fails to deliver?

Our season is in a delicate state and it is right to identify with players who are currently pulling us out of the mud. Jones has won 5-0, 4-0, 3-0s from the midfield.

Now he is injured, let Carrick prove himself and I will be fine. But honestly, I hate the shadow marking. If you check the matches we have been bullied in the midfield, you won't find Jones in more than 5% of them. I am talking current form here.

Is this true?

Torres+Eto'o+Ba = 5 EPL goals.
Welbeck = 6 goals.

Ukwu!!!

In 2009 UCL final, one thing I think could have helped us.... Had Fletcher been available we should have had a stronger midfield mix to stop Barca, then allow Ronaldo and Rooney to punish them. But our defence and midfield crumbled completely.

coogar: your football knowledge needs to be questioned. comparing carrick to jones? in what attributes? can jones ping a long raking pass from a deep position to start an attack?

phil jones? he doesn't even know what being a midfielder is. he's just a roy keane parody - he plays there to foul people. carrick intercepts. interception>>>>>tackling.

Dat response na for oghos.

Our own argument don expire. Except I see weting vex me again.

^ oghos
This ur response too long o. I don log out from my laptop. May be later.

You assume certain things which are wrong. Who told u I kept quite abt Carrick. He has his quality but I don't like some things abt him. Those things are key. Since 2009 or thereabout I dey hammer the guy. He needs a better complimenting CM to do those things he can't do.

I remember the Olc incidence..... E pain me well well.

Jones a liability in the midfield Ukwu!!!

Jones in the midfield: 9 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss.

Wins include 5-0, 3-0.....


Ukwu!!!

At the start of the season, without Anderson and Cleverley in the picture I also made it categorically clear we needed the pair of smarter centre defenders (Jones, Evans, Smalling). I guess that was when Starboard said he supported playing men with experience, but I suggested young blood.

^^^

I have noticed the poor display of Vidic and Ferdi a long time ago. Many people are getting to know about them now, perhaps too late. Including Moyes.

I have stated this weakness of Vidic, Ferdi and sometimes Carrick in our post match analysis in other forum for years now. It didn't start from here. It's not a coincidence or to avoid giving Ando/Clever any credit.

Something very interesting from my post of Jun 22-23.

elampiro: Jones played for just 15 minutes and most of his passes were done in the middle even some across the centre line into opponent's area, yet they were accurate. He didn't seat back like traditional defenders do. I can guess he drove the ball all the way there. No wonder we got the victory against City and West Brom when they came in, particularly Jones. He truly has both qualities of John Terry and Toure.

Don't you understand what it means for defence to play high? Playing high supports midfield and attack the more, only agile and energetic defenders with ability to chase, recover and tackle do that. Ferdinand and Vidic play deep and wait to stop strikers. They can't chase and tackle from the 2nd part of the field. They wait in their own 1st (area) while hoping midfielders track back to assist them. This pattern is far less risky but less adventurous, it gives the midfielders too mcuh work to do because a big space is left between the back and forward.

It is funny how time has proven me right. Same Coogar who used every weapon in his Arsenal to counter the above argument is now the one supporting this my above analysis.




June 22

elampiro:
I thought articles didn't mean a thing to you because they are written by individuals like you?


Nothing about their partnership, the defence agility aided and ease their job. Chikena. They didn't have the usual huge gulf in the midfield created by Vidic and Ferdinand partnership in playing deep. But wait, it was just three matches. Only three matches.

elampiro: It was 4-2, moreover a match is played for 90 minutes and not 60 minutes.

Using you and Coogar's logic, Cleverly and Anderson pairing was producing a draw till Vidic and Ferdinand were removed for Evans and Jones in the 75th minute, this enabled swifter moving of the ball forward and United scored the winner at 80th minute. Exactly same way in the Community Shield against City, SAF pulled out Ferdinand and Vidic and brought in Jones and Evans and United scored three. If defence doesn't help get goals why would a coach removed two defenders when he was trailing? He did it twice. One would have expected he pulled out Rooney or Welbeck and introduce Chicharito or Berbatov, but football needs to be read in whole and not in part. After these two matches Jones, Evra, Smalling and Evans started all subsequent matches in defence, except one that Fabio played in place of Evra and it was all smooth sale till injuries affected the defenders and everything changed.

elampiro:
1. Only Rooney played all 5 matches. He scored in all and got a hatrick in one.

2. Evra missed out completely against West Brom, it was Fabio who played. So verify before posting wrong information.

3. The winning factor in the West Brom game was the late introduction of Jones and Evans which allowed the defence line to play high thereby taking the pressure off the goalkeeper and helping the pressure in a forward play. The goal came at 80th minute after the subs.

elampiro: ]What is our argument? You said Anderson and Cleverly pairing was the reason we had a superlative start to 2011/12 season. But I am pointing to you main factor which is the use of young defenders. I also have told you that despite both Evans and Cleverly coming to rescue the situations against City and West Brom, they won the next four matches when the same defence line was used. It was Evans, Jones, Smalling and Evra that played the major role in defence. Outside this substitution, which other role did Berba play in the remaining 4 games other than to seat on the bench and watch.

So it was a combination of young players at the back and in the middle. Then Rooney didn't have to work much by tracking backwards, he was just pumping in goals yanful yanful

elampiro: The matches Jones, Smalling, Evra and Evans have started have benefited and yielded more result to Manchester United that the few that Cleverly and Anderson started. Those guys play high and help to choke the midfieled. Whereas, when Vidic and Ferdinad play deep, they create a big gulf between the defence and attack such that the midfielders have too much space to work. It's a simple tactics in football. Ferdinand only has a balance and he doesnt have the force to push forward in open play as much as the Jones and Smalling. His recovery is very poor should he dare venture forward, smae with Vidic. Once beaten it's bye bye. Only what they have is experience to seat with the goalkeeper while Vidic uses his aerial prowess to knock off balls.

I won't bother going on an endless argument with you. You are indirectly claiming to be a better tactician than SAF, you claim to be a better financial manager than the finance team in Old Trafford. Inside naiaraland. Kudos!

elampiro: You are are the one who is confused. Those three matches had some players who featured all at same time. Not just Cleverly and Anderson. If you play Anderson and Cleverly with Ferdinand and Vidic in defence you wont get same result. Football is a whole team work. SAF played some guys who had energy and speed and it was working. Jones, Evra, Smalling, Evans, Rooney, Welbeck, Nani and Young were the most used. Rooney, Cleverly and Anderson played all matches. After the injury of Cleverly, the winning streak continued. If it was the partnership why didn't the winning streak stop? It continued when Fletcher took Cleverly's place until Berbatov came in and spoilt it, then the young deferders were all injured. Things fell apart until Scholes came to the rescue.


The winning continued after injury stopped the partnership. It was when the defenders started getting injured the streak stopped. So stop all these three match fluke.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Some of the arguments in June. I tried to explain but everyone thought who is this new guy here trying to prove any knowledge of football analysis. I mentioned that SAF usually use young defenders whenever he had used Anderson and Cleverly (over 95% of the time if not 100%).

Fast forward 5 months later, I my argument has been 'vindicated'.

Now the difference here with Jones is that Jones has won many matches with different defenders and midfielders across several stages. With Giggs as a pair, with Fedi behind, etc.

Ajagayagayagayo hei, ayagayagayagayao.

Oghos1: Lol
So carrick is supposed to develop match sharpness from d bench while man u's best midfielder jones is running our midfield. Nice.

So u've been at carrick's neck ever since he came back from injury to help ur jones in midfield argument. Laughable.

How did Fletcher develop his? Before Carrick went on injury this season, he didn't play 70% of the performance he put up last season.

I have been a critic of Carrick for 3 years now. So it has nothing to do with Jones. It is worse when he is paired with another sluggish player.

Oghos1: Without a doubt, if derz anyway I could find an organised history of all ur argument, u'll turn out to be 1 of those who was scapegoating carrick during jis early united years.
And it clear u do not understand d type of player carrick is.
I'll xplain that to u.

He is neva a runner/shackler.

He is an expert at reading d game from deep.
Just because he isn't running around from pillar to post in d midfield doesn't mean he is doing nothing.
He is 'most of d time' perfectly positioned to prevent a shot/meaningful pass, and intercepts when poSsible.

He is not d swashbuckling type of tackler, but he is excellent at winning d ball from the opposition.

That's the defensive aspect.

This is his aspect of his game I am not a fan of. Running to join defenders while shadow marking. This allows opponents to pass the ball around our third at will because Carrick hope they make one wrong pass at the edge of our 18 box. Unfortunately, Harzard, Oscar and Moses (last season) were not the type to do passing, they drove around our box and tried to dribble in. Same with Aguero, Silver and Nasri. Not to talk of Barca. We need players who can tackle high up and retrieve the ball quicker.

Oghos1: There's no nEed explaining in detail d offensive part.
Or u wan2 still argue that jones will offer more offensively?

U were talking abt jones' "1ce in a while" bursting runs that results in nothing meaningful.
Y run with d ball when u can thread a thru ball to the main striker/winger from midfield??
Carrick's passing is infinitely better than jones and that's what every team should look to have in midfield.

And don't even bother trying to bring those stupid pass statistics.
That is one of d most misleading parameters ever.
Carrick's composure on d ball is anoda important thing we need and it has a way of rubbing off on others.

Carrick offensive play is poor considering the number of years he has been a midfielder and in comparison to Yaya Toure, Ramires, Silva, Xavi etc. You need to see Xavi taking free kicks.

Oghos1: Ps
Carrick is our best midfielder and should be reinstated back to his post asap and allowed gain all match sharpness.

Jones on the other hand will make an excellent emergency midfielder. No more no less.
He is a CB, and that's where he is best for the team.

Carrick was our best midfielder. When he is best again I will let you know. He style is becoming archaic, mostly in the EPL.

StarBoard: ask me abeg.
Because West Ham scored when he came on, "he" lost the game forgetting we were 3-nil ahead.
elampiro should go and open his own thread to be spreading his fallacies.

So assuming the scores was 0-0 before he came in. He would have cost us he game with poor positioning.

With Vidic and Ferdinand we kept a clean shit against them this season. Jones was in midfield in our 4-0 win.
Norwich is very weak this season. Lineup was he weakest we have presented this season.

Manchester United

13 Lindegaard

02 Rafael

28 Büttner

04 Jones

05 Ferdinand

15 Vidic

29 Zaha (Rooney - 78' )

23 Cleverley (Anderson - 90' )

14 Hernández

44 Januzaj (Fabio - 93' )

18 Young

coogar: you are talking nonsense.....
we lost there last season with a stronger team. whenever you have one of rio/vidic in the defence, our midfield gets bullied. it's got nothing to do with jones. why weren't you shouting jones name when we beat hull 3-2 few days ago? jones ko, jonah ni.

In the game against Hull I knew our midfield was not as strong without Jones, but I couldn't say it because first, I wanted to see more games without him. Secondly, dademola would have attacked me. Despite having Rafael, Smalling, Evans and Evra, we were vulnerable for the first time in 5 matches. From wining 3-0, etc, we suddenly conceded two goals.

Norwich this season is a shadow of Norwich last season. We cannot be referring o last season.

I am done with this argument. I think the problem is that some people cannot come to terms that Jones, a CD has by far outperformed our natural CMs. If Carrick and Fellaini comes again and play nonsense, the manager will put Jones there, and nothing anyone of you can do.

When we buy players, some of the CMs u guys protect here, will be shipped out.

coogar: and we didn't win today? giggs didn't start today? did jones play today or how did we win with a shyte line-up that excluded van persie, jones & rooney?

The performance was too poor. Norwich for that matter. A team that has been bashed heavily by some other big teams. We were bullied in the midfield.

coogar: and he's never lost?

He has won in similar poor line ups.

He also recorded huge wins with a partnership with Giggs, also with Ferdi behind him in the backline.

In two separate forum, look at what they said about Kagawa stats.

1. According to the stats Kagawa had a decent performance today as he completed 98% of his passes against the Canaries, but behind the data was a performance which lacked intensity or creative spark.

Passes: 41/42 98%
Clearances: 2/2 100%
Interceptions: 2/2 100%
Takeons: 2/2 100%
Crosses: 0/3

..........................

2.
Kagawa's performance shows how stats can sometimes be misleading. Pass completion was good; intensity was non-existent. He was piss poor. If we ever did go in for Reus or Gundogan, including him in a deal would be tempting.

afrodoc: welbeck has 17 league goals in 78 matches for United. We all know he has to improve on his finishing but please remember he frequently plays on the wing.
When one considers that Torres has the same 17 league goals in 95 matches for Chelsea as their main striker one should just count small blessings

I like Welbeck overall contribution. Now that he is scoring, it so good for the team.

dademola: last season, i doubt if we ever lost any game wen butnner played( he even won MOTM in one UCL match sef). He was even scoring goals! Why didnt pple say he shud be starting ahead of evra??

Oga give us Buttner games and we can begin to analyze hose matches.

coogar: elampiro has never won an argument here - the thing is he doesn't understand football & the dynamics.

with the team that was out today, jones couldn't have done much to improve the play. football is a team game, you cannot be too simplistic & conclude jones in vs jones out.

there are other factors to consider - the level of the opposition, starting lineup(the defence, the attack), the manager & the general tactical approach. so elampiro needs to brush up.

Face saving.

Jones has played in all kinds of line ups.