₦airaland Forum

I think at this time I can say I am done with the argument.

Hargreaves did not play so high up on the right as Ronaldo did on the left. I also saw Rooney going to the flank when Hagreaves was retreating.

When I see the match again, I will be able to say much more.

It was not a straight three man midfield, so you guys can be right there. But Hagreaves played a unique role. That's what SAF does with tactics.

dademola: I'm sure elampiro cant suggest such, that was why i asked him the question..

You guys are mixing up the basic for this argument. I never said Hagreaves played defensive midfield.

Let's leave the argument. May be one of you guys will see the match again and come here to analyse it.

coogar: elampiro is being devious....
hargo played as a midfielder - one of our starting players on the night. did he help the midfield? of course he did, so did tevez, rooney & ronaldo.

did hargreaves play as the hatchet man? no, he didn't but his job on the night was important in nullifying one arm of chelsea attacks. stopping a wing back isn't a defensive midfielder's primary role.

I doubt if I have ever said he played the hatchet role. From what I saw recently, he was drifting in front of Carrcik and Scholes as Man United defended. Then he quickly ran to the right as we start attack. The reason I am not able to describe it fully despite haven seen it recently was that the match was reduced to like 45-60 mins instead of 120 mins. They showed UCL finals year by year (SS5).

But considering Nani had good games prior to the final, why did you think SAF dropped Nani for Hagreaves? Nani should have engaged Cole more.

^^^

In a 4-3-3 formation for instance, who does the 3rd midfielder protects?

It is not straight on that every time Hagreaves went back he protected Scholes and Carrick.

I maintain, Hagreaves didn't marry the line when when defended.

dademola: elampiro and his theories!! Okay, if chelsea were attacking us, and cole was overlapping, who was picking him up?? Dont even bring tevez or rooney into the matter oo...

So Tevez and Rooney will stay like stick abi? Hope you know Rooney created a clear cut chance from the right flank which Tevez squandered. I thonk it was from a counter, and we should have been 2-0 up before Chelsea could get back.

Coogar has a good point but the problem is that he is taking away Hagreaves part of the job. If not for defensive duties, why did SAF not play Nani who was in form? Could Nani not have troubled Cole better?

coogar: what's the job of any winger if he cannot keep his fullback busy? did ronaldo not engage essien on the other side of the pitch? did ronaldo not engage ashley cole in 2004 & made sure ashley cole never hurt portugal in the most entertaining duel of that tournament?

this is how uefa saw the match.....and hargreaves wasn't anywhere near the centre of the pitch. he basically did what valencia does when he still had good head on his shoulders & stopping wingbacks from doing damage to united.

https://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9388/72364225cl2.jpg

Can we have where Eufa post match report? Is this a tactical chart or just a straight formation chart. You know those funny charts which will suggest Kagawa and Welbeck were both strikers in a 4-4-2 formation. But a tactical chart will seperate their functions. Please can you help me with link to this chart?

The bolded: that's an exaggeration right?

elampiro: 1 last response on this. lol

@Coogar, it depends on the way you want to see it. Some people felt he played in central midfield.
.........................................................

Hargreaves – the energetic, skillfull ball winner

There can’t be many players who United have paid 17 million pound for, who have played so few games but who made such a big impact. Owen Hargreaves signed on the 1st July 2007 and ended up playing a prominent part in United winning the Premier League and Champions League in the 2007-08 season. He made 16 starts in the league that season with seven as a substitute and only 23 in total with 11 as substitute. However, it was the quality and not the quantity of his appearances that were important. He was a player who had a history of injuries when we secured him from Bayern Munich but Sir Alex Ferguson clearly identified him as a player, who would take a title-winning side onto the next level in Europe. I believe Sir Alex was spot on in his assessment and was perfectly right to pursue and finally land the player, irrespective of the risks involved.

Hargreaves suffered a broken leg in 2006 and only came back for Bayern at the back-end of the 2007 season. As a player who suffered from patellar tendonitis, I think the enforced rest from playing during his rehabilitation with the broken leg, helped the tendonitis ease and enable him to pass his United medical. This is just my presumption because as soon as he started his United career, the problems clearly arose again. Fergie and the medical staff had to handle his game time with kid gloves. Many questioned the United Medical team in the following seasons but I think the problem was so great, they did a brilliant job in getting him on the pitch, as much as they did in the 2007-08 season. Thank God they did because he was instrumental in United winning the double that season.

He missed the first three games of the season and made his debut in the derby at the Eastland’s Stadium, United going down to a 1-0 defeat. He did play the week after in our first win of the season, at home to Tottenham and again the week after in a win against Sunderland at home. That game was on the 1st September and he didn’t feature again until the end of October. United had put their early season stutter behind them by then and apart from that defeat at City and getting knocked out of Carling Cup by Coventry, they had remained unbeaten. Sir Alex seemed to be picking Hargreaves games and he was entrusted with the big one’s against our main rivals. Once again he didn’t feature for a full month after the 2-2 away draw with Arsenal. A home win over Fulham, then another fortnight off until the away win at Anfield in mid December.

After that, he never spent any significant time out of the squad but never started three in a row. Instead, he seemed to play one, next week on the bench, with the occasional rest thrown in. I think, by now his worth to the team was invaluable. He was also adaptable, playing mostly central midfield but could move out to the right and was giving Ronaldo licence to move inside a lot more. It was that licence and protection from Hargreaves that enabled him to score 42 goals that season. He also played a couple of games at right back for the Reds, adapting as if he was a natural. Hargreaves first goal for United came in the away win at Fulham on the 1st March, a beautiful and highly technical free kick from just outside the area, that was in all the way from the moment it left his right foot.

He was then entrusted with two starts in four days, firstly in the Champions League quarter-final against Roma where he was man of the match and set up Tevez for the crucial only goal of the game. Then the all important home clash with Arsenal, which resulted in another crucial 2-1 win in the title race. Hargreaves scored his second goal for United in this game, with a similar class free kick as his previous one. Those two home wins gave United the impetus and belief they could win the title and the Champions League. United were well and truly in the zone now, Hargreaves didn’t feature in the away draw at Blackburn and was saved to play full back in the midweek goal less draw at the Nou Camp, in the semi final first leg. Back on the bench for the controversial defeat away at Chelsea on the following Saturday and then back on full back duty for the home semi final leg against Barca.

In both the Barca games, Sir Alex opted to play Hargreaves full back and bring Park into the midfield. His industry up and down the right enabled United to interchange the strikers and Ronaldo didn’t play as a conventional wide man. We all remember that game was won and our Moscow final date booked with a screamer from the Ginger Prince Paul Scholes. Once again he was risked in the starting line up in the crucial home win 4 days later against West Ham. This left United needing a win at Wigan the following week to clinch the league title, with the Champions league final another 10 days after that. I think Sir Alex had picked his Cup Final team before the Wigan game and Hargreaves was crucial to the way his team would set up against Chelsea in Moscow. I think that’s why he was left on the bench for the Wigan game, which United duly won and clinched another title.

Hargreaves inclusion in the final team, allowed Sir Alex to play the extra man in central midfield to combat Chelsea who always played three in there. I may be biased but a midfield three of Carrick, Scholes and Hargreaves was one of the most balanced and with a telepathic understanding of each others jobs and positioning I have ever seen playing for United. Such was the trust that the rest of the team had in them, it allowed the back four to stay solid as a unit and the front three, the licence and liability to roam anywhere and pick up space in between the Chelsea lines.

Hargreaves was instrumental in this midfield, his energy, ball winning skills, ability to sniff out danger and class to use and keep the ball, went a long way to securing our victory. The front three of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez were equally effective. None of them had defined positions that night, each taking it turns to drop in wide left or right and get up and support the furthest forward at the time. We all know it went to penalties but United should have put the game to bed in the first half but we know the nature of our club is not to do anything easy. Hargreaves played the full 120 minutes that night and despatched his penalty with consummate ease, what else would you expect from a man who used to ply his trade in Germany. So United bagged a historic Premier League and Champions League double and Hargreaves was certainly a one season wonder.

Such a shame that his injuries prevented him from really featuring for us again, apart from the odd comeback attempt. With David Moyes striving to secure the services of class midfielders, I have always maintained we have never replaced Hargreaves. When you have a natural box to box player like that who can play any role in that midfield, its such an asset to the squad. Lets hope we can sign a player of similar qualities to Hargreaves and curly hair doesn’t have to be a pre-requisite of that player.

..............................................

Coogar, wouldn't you love someone like him in our team?

It is just a pity we lost him to injury.

How much Hagreaves meant to us in 2007/8. Playing through pains he over delivered. The bolded captured the highlight.

Now this is one of the report which were confused about the role Hagreaves played in the final. His role was not as straight forward as you will want me to believe.

coogar: stop dancing around......
was hargreaves a defensive midfielder against barcelona? it's a yes or no question.

then against chelsea in the final, was hargreaves the defensive midfielder? yes or no?

Was this our argument about Hargreaves? About whether he played DM? We have been through all these already. Hagreaves was not just a defending midifeder, he played box to box as well as attacking midfielder. My argument then remains. Scholes and Carrick couldn't retrieve the ball so easily, then SAF helped them with a third man virtually in all the big matches. I wish I could search back to recall the olf argument proper.

I will need time for this.

coogar: now we are getting somewhere......
so in your own opinion, did hargreaves play as a CM against chelsea in moscow? did he play as CM against barcelona in both legs?

if he didn't play CM against barcelona & scholes/carrick did, shouldn't scholes/carrick get the credits? the reason hargreaves was played on the right side of the midfield was to keep ashley cole busy & cole offered nothing offensively on the right!

I will give Scholes and Carrick the full credit if it is proven they played in the midfield alone as a pair. I guess at Old Trafford Park was a third midfielder (unverified).

In Moscow, if Hagreaves succeeded in keeping Cole busy, it was a big relief to Scholes and Carrick because at the time Coles was a threat going foward exchanging passes with his attacking midfielders. But the game I saw recently, Hagreaves did far more than defending and attacking Cole. He was drifting to the cetral of the field while defending.

coogar: remember your argument was we need a bully in the centre of the midfield to win games. against barca(nou camp/old trafford), hargreaves was a full back. against chelsea in the final, he was on the right side of the midfield.


which of these positions make him a defensive midfielder?

We have got through all these before. I can't check the formation now. But against Barca I think we played three man midfield. But in the final, SAF didnt see the need for a straight three man midfield because Hagreaves was somewhere in the mix. I think I posted some papers which suggested we played 4-3-3. Then some others felt it was 4-2-1-3 and you guys showed it was 4-4-2 (either you showed or you said). Hargreaves role was not a straight away one. Had he been at the right back, SAF would have deployed a third midfieder to help fill the gaps with Scholes and Carrick.

coogar: and it was from this hargreaves' position he was able to neutralise ballack, lampard & makelele? why do you lie all the time? why?? how could hargreaves had played as a DM when he was on the flank?

I never said he neutralized all three of them. I never called Makelele. My major argument was his run in our UCL matches that season. His presence helped Scholes and Carrick. The major argument was that his presence was instrumental to our UCL success. I mentioned some previous matches in which he played as RB, etc. But when the analysis got to the final match, you said he did not play in CM, hence he was not the reason our midfield held its own against Chelsea. ........ ... and the argument went on and on.

I saw the 2008 final match again, Zonal marking got it spot on. I don't know what tess1 is trying to say.

Man United defending, Hargreaves joins midfield and defence while Rooney moves to the right. Man United attacking, Hargreaves runs to the flank. He didn't marry the flank as Ronaldo did.

coogar: elampiro is a criminal!
cheiiiii, see as dem expose elampiro yansh from his past comments. the uncanny ability to speak with 2 sides of the mouth is exemplary.

faced with the facts, he said he played along. so it's either you were lying then or you are lying now. whichever one you decide to choose, you have admitted you lie.

wow!

Was it not you who started the argument that Rooney led the line twice and couldn't deliver the league? So I argued in that line.

Now I am able to gather data better than when I started this thread. It's easy to support my claim now. Had I said Rooney didn't lead the line then, no one could have believed me.

[quote author=tess_1]elampiro, hands up and keep quiet. Anything you say shall be used against you in the court of Nairaland.





How time flies. This was elampiro some months back about Rooney as the lead striker in 2011/12. But now things have changed. He is now singing another tune about Rooney's position in the team in that same year.

This has shown that elampiro knows nothing about football other than to be following what bloggers write about football analysis.

Ahahaha! Is this not the same Zonal Marking site where someone brought out a chart sometimes ago to prove to you that Hargo played from the right side of the midfield in 2008 Champions league final against Chelsea to reduce Ashley Cole's threat rather than Cole and Lampard as you believed?

When you discredited the interpretation of the chart then, how do you now want anybody on this forum to rely on your interpretation of these charts. Or what has changed since between then and now?

This was your comment on the chart that was posted then:



All these doesn't change the fact that Rooney was the lead striker in 2011/12.[/quote]Now that I have proven my case beyond reasonable doubt, you went back and fetched irrelevant previous comments. That argument came about when Coogar said Rooney led the attack twice. I just danced along arguing in same direction because as of then I didn't have opta stat to back my argument. I knew Rooney didn't lead but I would have been called a liar had I said so without much evidence. Now I am more patient in digging out facts.

Rooney was not the lead striker in 2011/2012. Even your chart states Rooney played behind Welbeck. My analysis that Chicha and Rooney played 14 games together was enough to convince you.

Let me tell you a secrete. The chat which states Rooney was an AM (C) was used here for argument by Coogar. Then the opta chart I presented clearly shows Rooney did not lead the attack. Someone who led the attack wouldn't have been third on the list where other number 9s and 10s were missing.

Have you not reasoned that if you say Rooney led the attack that he must be super human. He doubled RVP's passes in the final third. I guess he tripled him in the deep. Then Rooney scored every 105 minute while RVP scored every 111. They have similar stat in some other parameters. This happened in a season our mifielders were injured until Scholes returned.

Stats and data from 5 different sources now confirmed Rooney didn't not lead attack. Including your own chart sating Rooney played behind Welbeck .

Some charts......

[b]1. The attached chart shows positions played by Man United players in 2011/2012 season. The chart clearly differentiates the number 10 from the number 9 with the indications AM(C) and FW respectively. The number 10 is the AM-C(attacking midfielder), although some other charts might decide to call it some other names. The number 9 is indicated with letters FW (forward). The chart is a summary of positions played in all matches of that season including cup matches.

From the chart, we can see that the only position Chicharito played was 9. Rooney played AM-C, AM-L and FW. Welbeck played AM-C, AM-L, AM-R and FW. This takes us to the next step to try and see who was involved in what.

2. Where did Rooney play? We shall know this by two steps. First, we look at the number of matches he played with Chicharito. Rooney and Chicharito started 14 matches together. This number doesn't include a few other occasions substitutions brought them together. Rooney started 31 matches. If you remove 14 from 31, you have 17 other times that Rooney could possibly have started as a number 9. This leads us to the next level, Rooney and Welbeck stats and who played what?

It is important too I mention here that Rooney scored 9 goals from four of the 14 matches he and Chicha started together.

3. Rooney only started two matches without Chicha or Welbeck. The matches are Man City vs Man United and Sunderland vs Man United. These were the matches (Nani, Giggs and Park) and (Young, Giggs and Valencia) were used to assist Rooney in some other formations. Apart from these two, Welbeck played 9 while Rooney played 10 in all the formation charts I have seen. I will post some soon. Someone has already given us a chart supporting this setting, even though it didn't tell if it was a league match or UCL.

4. Rooney, Welbeck and Chicha started 5 matches together. These and a few other matches Rooney was absent were basically the matches Welbeck got some tiny roles as AM-C, AM-L and AM-R.


Matches Rooney and Chichsrito started together: Arsenal from 36th minute (included in this list because it was still early and Rooney hadn't even score), Bolton, Chelsea, Norwich, Everton, Sunderland, Swansea, Newcastle, Aston Villia, West Brom, Wolves, Blackburn, Wigan, and Swansea. [/b]

dademola: End of discussion!!

Yes, when they got hold of the ball. But there was a problem taking the ball from opponents. But once with the ball.. End of discussion. Reason SAF used JS Park, Fletcher, Anderson, Gibson, Jones to play a three man midfield in difficult games, particularly big away games and UCL.

dademola: ukwu!!! the way elampiro talks from both sides of the mouth, is just unbelievable!! Were u not the same person who insinuated that; ever since hargreaves left us, our midfield has been weak, as we no longer have a "confrontational" figure in the middle of the park?? Choi..ayagayagayagayoooo!!!

Lol Ukwu!!!

Bu try and reason all my previous argument well na. Hagreaves gave us something very unique- aggressiveness, pace, tackle etc. But we all know Scholes and Carricks can use the ball together and monopolize possession along side Giggs, Park, Rooney and Kagawa.

Our midfield with last season with Scholes, Carrick, (plus Cleverley) was better than what we have now.

The problem right now is not the points gap, it has to do with:

1. We have still not gotten it right at this time. Dangerous.
2. The injury to our key players.
3. No strong back up to some key players. Rafael, RVP, Jones. Our squad is large, but the players to select from to enable the manager come up with several formation are too few. Our reliable players are not more than 14. Then injury dropped some ... We are even lucky Welbeck scores in absence of RVP.


Two seasons ago, we were some 8 points ahead of City with few matches to go and they caught up. Last season, at some point, I think we were 15 points off City and 20+ off Chelsea at some point in the second half of the season, but they close the gap despite City not getting good results is their last matches.

With the right settings, we can have a run of wins and finish top 4. Liverpool is still catchable.

nitrogen: We don talk am many times o, but dem anyagayagayos said make we shut up.

Ps: Elamps, sorry o, I borrowed your word to abuse you nooni o.

Hahahahaha

Una no understand say our midfield and attacking midifield strong well well last season? Scholes, Carrick and Rooney. Have you not noticed that Welbeck is scoring freely whenever we have boosted our midfield? But if Rooney plays 9, who will give him that influential backing from the deep?

GustavoFring: David Moyes slams 'scandalous' Howard Webb on Match of the Day

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25571428

That's new....Fergie never used to berate his players in public

I think it would have been more obvious had Young attempted to dribble instead of scoring.

coogar: so why has rooney not replicated that rich goalscoring form in the absence of RVP? we are just wasting money on that waste of flesh. he's more comfortable in the midfield 2 than as a striker.

evra gets no protection. janujaz takes too many risks with his elaborate style of play. his loss of possession cost us both goals. i really don't think we need new players. we just need a gaffer.

Last season, Pauls Scholes, Rooney and inform Carrick all played behind RVP. But who is the established player playing behind Rooney? This is the problem.

This season we have also seen RVP dropping deep when Rooney was absent.

Fussbot: lolz..evans attacks more with the ball than all our midfielders i swear

they should just sign a creative midfielder now..dat match pain me gaan o

You dey hide for this thread. Make we dey get your opinion from time to time.

dademola: elampiro, i take God beg u- dnt even start!!! Why u dey alws do like this nah??

I won't argue. I will just present my data in two or three posts. It's over.

SailorXY said we are wasting our God given talents here. So I will try to always summarize and quit.

coogar: even if you are blind, you should see rooney had the lowest number of total passes in the list. he made the lowest passes in the defensive half & the highest passes in the attacking half. your stats have defeated you, elampiro.........go to bed!


this is the final nail on elampiro's coffin....

https://eplindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Wayne-Rooney.png

the similarity in 09/10 & 11/12 suggest rooney operated in the same position throughout. look at his assists in those seasons, min/goal, overall contribution & compare to the other seasons.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/1492977_image_jpg0d5b1c4c7f720f698946c7f6ab08f687

elampiro has been destroyed finally - this is another stat comparing RVP's stats with rooney's stat in 11/12 season. they had similar stats too(the stats of true centre forwards).

I have decided not to reply this the manner I initially wanted too because I have clear evidences now that Rooney didn't play 9 in 2011/2012 season. I will just respond to this so simple, then later, in one or two posts more I will submit my detailed evidence.

The charts refers:

RVP 3339 minutes, 561 final third passes. 27 on the chart.
Rooney, 2819 minutes 829 final third passes. Third on the chart.

I want to stop here. Much later I will bring those evidences. I am busy at the moment. May be before 2pm.

nitrogen: Moyes is a 'gagacious' being, imagine, he fielded someone that wasn't part of the match build-up, he is just senseless jare, some players aren't okay too, the fact is this, Fergie used this players to win titles because of his many years of experience in the PLeague. Simples!

I agree with you that SAF knowledge of the players over several years helped him win the league with them. We must not also forget that despite his age, Paul Scholes played a good role. Van Persie was fit throughout.

Had Moyes knowledge of the boys, he should how to combine the boys better with different formations in separate situations. Perhaps, Valencia should have started from the right back as SAF did many times Rafael was injured.

Defence---- Valencia, Smalling, Evans, Evra
Midfield---- Janujaz, Fletcher, Cleverley, Young/Kagawa
Forward--------------Kagawa Welbeck

Rooney could have been on the bench since he was unfit.


Defence---- Valencia, Smalling, Evans, Evra
Midfield---- Carrick, Fletcher, Cleverley,
Forward-------Janujaz, Welbeck, Young/Kagawa


When are we getting Nani back. RVP and Nani have over stayed their injuries.

David Moyes has revealed that Wayne Rooney is playing through the pain barrier of a groin injury but admits that he simply can't afford to play without Rooney.

After missing the 1-0 victory at Norwich on Saturday, Rooney did not train in the build-up to the New Years Day defeat by Tottenham Hotspur.

"He has got a bit of a groin injury but the longer it went on, we had to try and get more attacking players on the pitch to try and find more ways score, the games are coming thick and fast. He has missed a couple of games with his groin and may well miss some more in the games coming up."

Robin van Persie is inching closer to a return to full fitness but Sunday's FA Cup tie at home to Swansea may come too soon for the Dutchman. Moyes said: "I am not sure yet." [Source: Daily Mail]
...................
Why play someone who wasn't fit and aggravate the situation when we know RVP is not ready yet? He should have started from the bench. We had Chicharito, Kagawa, Fletcher and Young. It must not always be 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1.

dademola: u want to bring jones into this by all means at all costs, and believe me, it doesnt make any sense at all!! Chelsea were able to equalize, and score d winning goal mostly because thier players were able to string effective passes together and d general attacking play was good enof! Lemme ask u; if ur team is trailing, are u telling me that u'd bring on a jones or a luiz??

Yes. Mikel, a defensive minded midfielder was brought in for Lampard.

When you prevent your opponents from threatening you, you can create chances with less anxiety.

dademola: the same chelsea went behind against liverpool, and reacted superbly by scoring 2 goals in the 1st half! yeah, conceding cheap goals isnt good but we have to remember that; winning games is all about outscoring ur opponents! we didnt attack spurs like a team trailing behind shud do, u are talking about young defenders.

Things will work better upfront when RVP returns. The forward play was not as bad as it looked, we created some good chances but the quality to make them clear cut chances wasn't there because (a) Janujav is too young to always make the right decision after he had beaten his man (b) Valencia had no quality option to work with him. Rooney played far from him in a bid to cover the midfield properly. Smalling offered some good interchange of passes, but he wasn't what Rafael would have offered. Smalling had a good shot on target.(c) the forward play was too disjointed because there was so much tracking back by everyone. When Valencia ran free a few times, only Welbeck would be in the box.

If you are two goals down and there is no fear of conceding more, you can throw caution to the wind and press for more. The defence join midfield, the midfield partly join attack. In the example you gave, Chelsea went behind against Liverpool, but after then Liverpool never bullied their defence. It is a very strong, pacing and energetic defence they have in Chelsea. They support the midfield well while dealing with threats properly. Remember too, Luis was used as a destroyer, he frustrated Liverpool all though.

The fact remains that we need our young defenders and at least one energetically mobile midfielder to be sure of restricting our opponents to few chances and shots on target. This setting helps us to play high while hoping to recover the ball quickly once we lost it. We saw how Evans was able to recover in a particular situation when a Totteham player tried to outpace him from almost the centre line. Had it been Vidic, he would have been 10 yards behind by the time the striker gets to DDG.

I think Fletcher should pair with Cleverley, then we see how it goes. If we keep our game at 0-0, we can use a super sub to try and get one or two goals as we saw Chelsea did today. Chelsea were poor until Oscar and Williams came in. But they were able to prevent Southampton from threatening Cech. At zeros you can make a plan while the players work out something patiently and precisely. But while chasing, everything is done out of frustration and panic.

^^^
Starboard doesn't come online when Man United picks a victory or when Rooney gives a man of the match performance. Did you not see how he was hoping Morrison disgraces us at Old Trafford? He is more of a critic of the manager and Rooney than an analyst.