₦airaland Forum

true2god:
Abu Bakr's government'was meant to be a theocratic government based on the sunnah of the prophet. If he cannot follow the sunnah (the Islamic prophet did not kill people who refused to pay zakat) then we can conclude that he run his government the way he likes. Abu Bakr killing 'apostates' (as against q2:256) and the people that did not pay zakat is a sign of the brutality of his government which drived Umar Ibn Kathab into further ruthlessness against all dissident.

Justifying the action of Abu Bakr using the US tax system is 'no-go' moral equivalence. The US operates a modern taxation system which can never be compared with the crude zakat system and defaulters are punished marginally in proportion to their 'crime'. In most cases you don't enjoy social benefit when you don't pay tax and if the tax evasion is on a high side, the government can decide to throw the defaulter to a limited jail term. There is also room for tax holiday and tax refund for 'loyal' citizens who pay tax promptly.

The moral equivalence you try to create here is wrong.

AlBaqir:
They don't even deserve death at all. It's not even "we don't necessarily kill those..."




First, enforcing is different from murdering/killing. Caliph Abubakar was wrong. Simple truth.

Second, there is no ijma when "people" oppose a decision. Besides, Abubakar never consulted the generality of sahabah. Even his second in command, Umar ibn al-khattab initially opposed him saying "these people are muslims" before he claimed to have received "inspiration" from God knows where to accept the Caliph' s decision. History and Ulama were cruel to have labeled those righteous Muslims as "apostates".

Lastly, ijma is useless where there is clear text. There is clear text of how Prophet dealt with those who refused to pay zakat. Again, he never murdered them.

true2god:
True to a degree but the killing is socially unacceptable.

tintingz:
Ad hominem.

What's sensible in your religion when only one sect is going to paradise.

Over billions of people will be in hell. My goodness.

AlBaqir:
# As far as Zakat is obligatory on those capable of paying it, it does not meant such person/people should be killed or labeled apostate for refusing to pay it.


Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Messenger (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and `Abbas bin `Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamil refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad). As for `Abbas bin `Abdul Muttalib, he is the uncle of Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) and Zakat is compulsory on him and he should pay it double."


Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 1468
In-book reference : Book 24, Hadith 71
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 2, Book 24, Hadith 547
 https://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/24/71



 Narrated Abu Dhar:
Once I went to him (the Prophet (s) ) and he said, "By Allah in Whose Hands my life is (or probably said, 'By Allah, except Whom none has the right to be worshipped) whoever had camels or cows or sheep and did not pay their Zakat, those animals will be brought on the Day of Resurrection far bigger and fatter than before and they will tread him under their hooves, and will butt him with their horns, and (those animals will come in circle): When the last does its turn, the first will start again, and this punishment will go on till Allah has finished the judgments amongst the people."

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 1460
In-book reference : Book 24, Hadith 63
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 2, Book 24, Hadith 539
 https://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/24/63


It is only in the interpretation of the wahabi that whoever abandoned salat or refused to pay zakat should be killed.

tintingz:
Again non sequitur fallacy.

It's my concern, this is religion, a public matter, my position is an opposition to your beliefs, you can't tell me what to discuss about.

You should be worried you might be going to hell.

true2god:
I used the words 'so-called' because their activities ran against the teachings of Christ. And using the word 'Christian terrorist' is very strange and equally funny.

The destruction of Jerusalem was foretold in Matthew 24 by Jesus and this event took place in 70AD while led to the sacking of the Jews from Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple of Solomon. This is the 'abomination of desolation' standing on the holy place which the Bible foretold by the prophet Daniel. The Romans, at least in the 1st and the 2nd century of the Christian era does not identify with Christianity and not until the 4th century, in the council of nicea, 'integrated' Christianity into their sociopolitical order headed by the pope. You are often equating the Romans with Christianity but history proved that the greatest persecutor of the Christian church is the papacy or the Roman Catholic. I don't want to drag this issue off tangent so much.

My argument is summarized thus: the rightly guided khalifas can be said to understand Islam more than any contemporary Muslim hence their actions can be judge as sunnah of the prophet. If all the rightly guided khalifas are warmongers and battle field generals, it will be difficult to conclude that Islam is a religion of peace. The battle of Badr was not provoked by the apostates but by Abu Bakr in order to forcefully bring the apostates back to the fold and Islam and to ensure that they pay zakat to the Islamic state under the new leadership of Abu Bakr as sadiq. This action by Abu Bakr, in this modern world, will be viewed as unwanted provocation and forceful conversion of unwilling citizens. The apostates never threatened the Muslims here.

true2god:
The submission was based on the claim by 'najib632' that Islam is very peaceful when the opposite is true. At least it is on record that Mohammed's household was not wiped out by the Jews or the Christians but by the Muslims. And it is also on record that the new Islamic state went to a civil war immediately after the demise of the prophet, the battle against the apostates led by Abu Bakr.

The records are there for you to verify. I will however agree with you that the so-called Christian world have been the greatest threat to human existence, especially in this atomic age. The Christians world will surely destroy this world with their atomic weapon stockpile. And note, the Islamic world are also developing a new weapon program (Pakistan and Iran for now).

tintingz:
Red herring and Non sequitur fallacy.

The thread clearly demonstrate the problems and delusion being a Muslim. Even as a Muslim one is not sure if he/she falls under the sect that will be in paradise!

This is problematic.

true2god:
Check my old post; I have always advised people to remove the religious lens on certain issues.

true2god:
By their fruits we shall know them. The fruits of Islam are there for all to see. You can't be a more Islamic than the prophet and the 'rightly' guided khalifas. I don't need to tell you that your prophets grandchildren were not killed by the Jews and the Christians but by fellow Muslims, hence the descendants of the prophet were completely WIPED OUT!

true2god:
Yes, the British run the most genocidal empire known to man. You have to understand that the Arabs are also guilty as the British people. Both are expansionist and imperialist by nature.

The British created the mess in Myanmar and run away for the current generation to clear the mess; the same thing they did in Palestine after the Balfour declaration that sealed the creation of the state of Israel. When you remove the religious lens in appraising the global politics, you will understand better the complex issues affecting this world.

true2god:
Read and again and slowly.

true2god:
I don't justify what is happening to the Rohyinga people but just to keep the record straight. Many Muslims are ignorant of the genesis of the crisis which was caused by the British people. You will agree with me that the Rohyjnga people can't be Myanmar people and Bangladeshi at the same time. If you have taken time to study their facial and physiological make up you will know that they are more Indian than Myanmarn hence are naturally Bangladeshis.

The Islamic Turks repatriated millions of Christian Armenians to Eastern Europe and where is the outcry from the Muslim world? The Turkish genocide against the Armenians is still fresh but no Muslim talk about it. As far as Muslims are not the victims it is OK to Muslims. Does the land belong to the Rohyinga people or the Burmese?

If you acquire land illegally, it will be forcefully consficated from you.

true2god:
Which country then represents Islam? Muslims are always denying the Saudis anytime they 'misbehave'. The Saudis determines who performs hajj, and who don't, hence holding the key to the spiritual fulfilment of millions of Muslims.

By their fruits we shall know them. The fruits of Islam are there for all to see. You can't be a more Islamic than the prophet and the 'rightly' guided khalifas. I don't need to tell you that your prophets grandchildren were not killed by the Jews and the Christians but by fellow Muslims, hence the descendants of the prophet were completely WIPED OUT!

true2god:
Not all protest are justified especially if its certain that life will be lost. The man that allegedly made the statement left unscathed while hundreds of non-muslims were killed and churches burnt. How can you justify Nigerians protesting over a cartoon drawn in far away Denmark? How does it affect us as a nation? And again, you can't censor and regulate how people should talk and think because it affects your religion. That's a crazy way of thinking! Comparing Islam to a scorpion is also derogatory, even if you don't know.

You are listing all the atrocities against Muslims without listing the atrocities of Muslims against non-muslims. Islam has been at war with non-muslims since its inception; I don't have to school you on this. All the first rightly guided khalifas are warmongers who spread the religion through the sword. On the Rohingya issue, the Rohyinga people are from Bangladesh (formerly part of India) who supported the British war effort against the Japanese in the 2nd world war. After the defeat of Japan, they were gifted with large chunk of land in Burma, now Myanmar, (the Burmanese supporting the Japanese) where they settle for over 50 years. The Myanmar people are only kicking the Rohyinga people out from their ancestral land. The Indian and the Bangladesh govt understood this simple historical fact hence they can do little by only ensuring that the Rohyinga people are relocated back to Bangladesh where they rightfully belong to. Read history and not media propaganda.

You are only blaming the west while Muslims are all ready to relocate to the west in their hundreds of millions. As long as many people don't put their house in order, they west will continue to play you like a 'ludo'. The Chinese people put their house in order and are now free from western control and interference. Put your house in order and no troublesome neighbour will disorganize your home.

true2god:
I read from somewhere that the Saudi Royal families are actually of Jewish ancestry and are directly reporting to the Rotschild Jewish family in all their affairs. They must claim Muslims for internal and international legitimacy but are secret Jews. Have you wondered why the Saudi Royal family and the British Royal family are so close? The British Royal family are equally loyal to the Rothschild family who owned over 50% of global wealth.

The Saudis would rather destroy the Shi'a Iran yet make a good friend of the Israelis. No matter what the Israeli do, the Saudis will always back them up secretly while the ignorant Muslims will protest in their various countries or embassies.

The world have to wake up to the fact that they are being mentally played.

Abuheekmat:
Laughing. Who are takfeery

Abuheekmat:
Baba empiree..

Her Songs are not halal nor sahih..

Anything involving musical instruments is sin.
Anything having nonsense lyrics might end up as kufru or sin..

E lo ko eko sunnah

iamgenius:
Did the Royal family say Mawlid is bid'ah?

Hkana:
Brothers! It's been a while

NASTYNASOSO:
HMMMMMMM

ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE NOT TRYING TO JUSTIFY SOMETHING.... ..........
EVERYONE KNOWS YOUR POINT BUT WHERE IS THE DOWRY ABI THAT CASE HAS BEEN SUPERCEDED WITH YOUR ARGUMENT

GuyWise101:
Apc and bulhari cannot decieve us in this dying minute, we have already made up our mind to vote bulhari out and that is final.....



Never again shall we have a murderous dullard as president.

NASTYNASOSO:
HMMMMMMMMMM

ITS A NORM IN YORUBA LAND LETS STAND UP TO IT. WE ALL KNOW THE ACCEPTABILITY PREMARITAL PREGNANCY IN OUR MIDST.
SO MANY PEOPLE ARE LIVING AS HUSBAND AND WIFE UNDER THE COMMAND OF INTRODUCTION WHILST THE MAIN NIKKAH NEVER TAKES PLACE.
LETS FACE OUR DEMONS.

NASTYNASOSO:
HABA

We have always believed in Yorubaland regardless of religion that we don't do nikkah while the lady is pregnant. They postponed nikkah till after baby is delivered
PLEASE, THIS STATEMENT IS NOT TRUE.
WEDDINGS ARE OPENLY CONDUCTED IN YORUBALAND WITH PREGNANCY.
THIS IS A THING OF CONCERN BECAUSE ONE BEGINS TO WONDER WHERE THE CULPRIT ALFAS GOT THEIR OWN DOCTRINE FROM.
I AM SO HAPPY THIS HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP. WE ARE ALL WITNESS TO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN OUR VARIOUS COMMUNITIES YET WE KEEP A BLIND EYE.