₦airaland Forum

When we say that some of these teachings are informed by the anti-Christ spirit, that may sound over the top! But do people see a pattern to some of these teachings:

- You don't have to obey God
- You are God
- You are Christ
- You should not pray to or through Christ
- You stand in Christ's stead
- Jesus' (The Lord's) prayer is not for mature Christians
- When you give you lay hold on eternal life


At the least, each and every one of those limited examples contradict the teachings of Jesus Christ; what spirit informs a habit of consistently contradicting the teachings of Christ other than the anti-Christ spirit.

They say in order to live long, what to do is honour your father and mother ----- they go back to the Old Testament.

They say in order to "prosper" you must "tithe" (in fact their boss says you are robbing God otherwise); you must "sow into pastor" because pastor has power to make you rich, you must give (i.e. give into "church" in various ways ---- especially again in terms of giving to the pastor, including "Offer 7", yes these same folk are saying "blessings are unconditional".

Meanwhile consider the illogic and folly of someone talking about "ginosko" (uninformed people cheaply bamboozled by some foreign words):

[quote author=Omo_Tier1 link=topic=704762.msg8652447#msg8652447 date=1309854244]classic example of fleshly wisdom! Well, I understand all branches do not 'grow' at same rate even though they live on same vine.

Why do people like you find it difficult to grasp the new creation realities?Can God obey God to bless God? - This require a mind of wisdom -[/quote]No it does not require a mind of wisdom; rather it takes a poorly developed, even daft mind, to believe this biblically or even logically. It does not even warrant refuting --- other than to highlight it in stark relief.


[quote author=Omo_Tier1 link=topic=704762.msg8652447#msg8652447 date=1309854244]THIS IS THE TRUTH: The new creation does not need to obey God like the isrealites did in order to be blessed! If your spirit can grasp this, then you would ginosko why SALVATION is a TOTAL package !
What then does this mean? A man who believes and confesses Christ Jesus as his Lord and Saviour is AUTOMATICALLY granted that Total package of blessings as heir of salvation, as one who belong to the seed of Abraham. However, to enjoy that total package of blessings, this new creation is got to 'train' his spirit in the light of God's word so as to learn how to walk in the package of blessings that rightly belongs to him.[/quote]Meaningless drivel; first what is "total package"? Second what is this "train" his spirit thing? Is the fellow not already "God" as quoted above; does "God" now need to "train" his spirit in order to be blessed by himself, God? Remember that God does not need to obey God in order to be blessed by God! God does not need to obey God but needs to train God --- very "clever" logic or spiritual revelation --- indeed "greater truth"!

You see, the false teachers know how they ensnare the greedy and the poor thinking! Mix poison of greed with some truth of scripture. Yes a Christian is already blessed ----- even non-Christians enjoy some of God's blessings ("rain on the just and unjust alike" ---- but to now say "you don't have to obey" God starts to go into the territory of serving the cause of the anti-Christ spirit.


[quote author=Omo_Tier1 link=topic=704762.msg8652447#msg8652447 date=1309854244]Now I implore you to show me one scripture in the new testament where God rightly said "if you shall do this, then will I do this " as was the case with the isrealites.[/quote]First, start with Matthew 6:3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

But of course these prosperity "gospel" people (aka "prosperitians" only pay lip service to giving to the needy (they are more concerned with "sowing into pastor's life" so a passage like above will be ignored. However, even worse than this, expect some of them to come and tell us that those words of Jesus do not matter for Christians because "Jesus did not function in the New Testament."


Second, when it comes to "sowing to pastors" etc, they say there are promises or blessings that go with it: some of them will then see exactly "if you shall do this, then I will do this" in a passage like Matthew 10:41 - Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man’s reward.

Now as for the leaders and pastors, they know that they are just misleading the mugs for the sake of their (leaders & pastors) own belly; but the mugs are too overcome by desire, aspiration and greed to be able to think carefully and realise that they are being fooled and misled into believing a lie from the father of lies rather than following true biblical teachings.

Anyway, one more way to show the fallacy of the logic here: how can you "remain in Jesus" if you do not obey His teachings; and if you do not "remain in Him", how do you enjoy the "blessings" of remaining in Him? Compare the passage below with the poor logic of "you do not need to obey God"!

John 15

3[b]You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you[/b]. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7[b]If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.[/b] 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

1. They were already clean (cf. Joagbaje who says they were not "born again"!)
2. Yet, they were required to remain in the vine --- which involves obedience
3. If they remain in the vine (involving obedience), they will bear fruit (we know that the "prosperitians" are not interested in that kind of fruit but we prefer the kind of fruit that Jesus is interested in and is talking about)
4. If they remain in the vine they can ask whatever they wish which will be granted.

Joagbaje:
Its a lesser truth. We no longer recieve hundred fold in the new testament .when we give, we lay hold on eternal life.  T There is no such teaching . Maybe you're just joking.

1. Was Jesus' teaching about the 100-fold return wrong - or is it that the prosperity "gospel" people do not understand it or had/have an interest in twisting it?

2. Particularly with the bolded in red, is it now through giving that people "lay hold on eternal life"? Is this what Jesus taught about eternal life or are the prosperity "gospel" not again preaching another gospel?

Joagbaje:
There are different kinds of givings just like there are different kinds of prayer.

But, recently, when we asked you to identify the types of giving that advance the gospel, you couldn't do it!

Joagbaje:
If someone prays and hasn't received the answer, that doesn't mean others don't have answers . Several reason could be involved that's why it's always good to talk with the pastor. But jokes apart, for every giving there's is a receiving.[/i]

Ah, it is the kalo-kalo giving that you prefer to talk about; well, what we on this side are interested in primarily is the type of giving that advances the gospel.

Joagbaje:
To receive a prophet in that context is giving or welfare. Everything has it's place. It's like a man says. "I won't pray to God , but I will read bible only"   He will surely get the benefit of studying but he will lose the Benefit of payer. But why should we be looking for how to escape simple scriptural teachings?.

the point is simple . It's a law of sowing and reaping, maybe that's what your guy who saaid " if you give a junior pastor you have 20% if you give to G.O . You have 100%" I don't know if it's just a joke. But if it really happened I guess it is based on that scripture . Trying to say there is a reward for giving to fellow christian ,there is higher reward for giving to Mr M.O.G.

All convoluted somewhat but really still about kalo-kalo "giving"!

Joagbaje:
Why are you against giving to the man of God , when it's clearly in the bible ? Are we wiser than God. If God lay the principle . We do the word without questioning him. We shouldnt be looking for other way around it.  If the bible says so, that settles it for me.

More kalo-kalo ---- it is all bout giving to the "man of God"!

Joagbaje:
When we give to MOG we are the ones been blessed , not him. We do it for our good. Especially if it's done by faith . If a man gives without faith he may not receive. And besides there are different givings , someone may give out of appreciation because of the blessing he has received , another gives as a seed for a specific reason or a specific harvest. There more to this things beyond a yes or no answer. Each matter is dealt with specifically.

Always about giving to the "man of God". Also it is important to bear in mind that the Joagbaje saying when "we give . . ." is himself a pastor with a vested interest in receiving giving from others; he is actually on the "receiving" rather than the "giving" side even though he is talking about "we give".

Look, according to the Bible, every believer is a "man/woman of God", every believer is a priest and some of us will not tolerate this lame brain-washing attempts (except that far too many ill-equipped people fall for it) using the idea of something "special" about giving to "pastors"!

Please identify for us the types of giving that advance the gospel!

Thanks.

@nuclearboy

That is one of the things that infuriates me the most about Joagbaje. When we first started engaging him one late December like that, I think we all (I did certainly) thought he was a genuine guy or genuinely mistaken guy. However, there are now soooooo many examples of him deliberately himself (not even relying on opaks Oyaks) twisting the Bible or deliberately using some version or other to manipulative intent!

I find that a total disgrace for its dishonesty. The one thing is that sometimes people are too clever by half and end up being daft: if he was wise, he would realise that he cannot fool all of us here --- but I guess he is used to fooling his congregation and arrogantly or ignorantly thinks he can get away with the same here!

Joagbaje:
^^^
small boat I agree. But must correction be with insult? Which one is false teaching? The bible say "ship " did I put it there.

Point out the insult!


(I'll let you know that I even held back; I could have pointed out again your deliberate and manipulative uses of Bible translations/versions)

Meanwhile let us consider an example of what it means to "further the gospel" according to Joagbaje.

(a) Joagbaje says giving money to fund TV & satellite ministry etc is "furthering the gospel"

(b) Joagbaje says there was nothing wrong with Eddie Long (using millions of such funds?) to settle young men who alleged Same-sex affairs with Eddie Long! In fact, Joagbaje says Eddie Long is justified to do this because after all even Jesus "settled" tax collectors! See here
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-687483.0.html#msg8496584 and
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-687483.0.html#msg8498248


Therefore: it would seem that according to Joagbaje, using ministry funds by Eddie Long to settle s.ex abuse allegations is using the money to "further the gospel"!

Or perhaps when the Head of TBN, Paul Crouch, spent $425,000 of "ministry funds" to settle a man who alleged Same-sex affair with him, that was also to "further the gospel"!


Meanwhile, as zikky has pointed out, Joagbaje obviously avoided the simple question that I asked him earlier: please tell us the types of giving that advance the gospel


PS @ zikky, I never ready yet to do multiple choice question for am; after all him na "bone-chewer"!  

In addition, the People's New Testament commentary describes the vessel as "A small ship. A fishing boat."

Meanwhile, also consider the purpose for which Jesus was going to use the boat (or small ship)! The primary purpose was to sit in the boat and continue to teach/preach to the people on the shore i.e. to maintain some distance from the crowd so as not to be crushed.

So how could that have been a ship of the size/type that you "chatter" (sic)? This is what two commentators observe on the passage.

Barnes

A small ship - Rather a "boat." There were properly speaking, no "ships" on the Sea of Tiberias. This was probably a small boat that belonged to the disciples, in which he could draw off from the shore, and teach the people without being pressed by them.

Lest they should throng him - They pressed upon him in great numbers. He had healed many, and those who were still diseased pressed or crowded on him, so that his labors were interrupted and embarrassed. He therefore withdrew from the multitude, and sought a situation where he might address them to greater advantage.

Clarke

A small ship - Πλοιαριον. The lytil boot, Old English MS. It was doubtless something of the boat kind, which probably belonged to some of the disciples. Our Lord was at this time teaching by the sea of Galilee. The word ship is utterly improper in many places of our translation, and tends to mislead the people.

Is that the kind of vessel you "chatter" (sic)?

You see: combating even the smallest false teaching is not free erm, a small affair.

Mark 3:9 (KJV)**

And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him.

According to Strong's the word rendered by the KJV as "a small ship" is ploiarion which means a small vessel, a boat. In the KJV that word is translated as "boat" 3 times, as "little ship" 2 times, and as "small ship" just this one time in Mark 3. The word is not translated simply as "ship".

Here are some other Bible versions of Mark 3:9

NIV

Because of the crowd he told his disciples to have a small boat ready for him, to keep the people from crowding him.

ASV

And he spake to his disciples, that a little boat should wait on him because of the crowd, lest they should throng him:

BBE

And he made a request to his disciples to have a little boat ready for him, so that he might not be crushed by the people;

NASB

And He told His disciples that a boat should stand ready for Him because of the crowd, so that they would not crowd Him;

Douay-Rheims

And he spoke to his disciples that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him.

Darby

And he spoke to his disciples, in order that a little ship should wait upon him on account of the crowd, that they might not press upon him.

**EDIT Oh, I forgot to say that in the modernisation of the KJV to the NKJV this is how the passage is now rendered

So He told His disciples that a small boat should be kept ready for Him because of the multitude, lest they should crush Him.

^^ OK O Enlightened One; please explain the "work of ministry"


Meanwhile @ Joagbaje your task still remains: please identify for us the types of giving that advance the gospel. Thanks.

You see the problem now: is offer 7 not also sowing into a pastor's life?

Anyway your task remains: please identify for us the types of giving that advance the gospel!

Why do you want to leave offer 7 out?

Why have you also avoided the issue of giving/sowing to pastors?

How does either of those advance the gospel?


Otherwise as the thread starter, please identify for us the types of giving that advance the gospel?

^^^ I always felt that you guys bothering to respond were wasting your time. The whole thread was engineered for a purpose, to promote a particular agenda.

Why don't they tell us how "Offer 7" advances the gospel? Or how "tithes" which some say are exclusively for "ministers" advance the gospel? Or how "giving to the pastor" or "sowing into the pastor's life" so that you can be blessed in exchange/return (which one of them recently called debit and credit account, exchange of giving and receiving etc) advances the gospel?

It is a manipulative thread: while I agree that the thread could be productive if the manipulation is countered, I still take the view that the thread is a waste of time because the main manipulators will not repent anyway.

Worst case scenario: Brown envelope "journalism" at work!

At the least: thoughtless, unbalanced, unintelligent hagiographical "journalism"!

Joagbaje:
.

I no curse you o . Na scripture I quote. Why you dey vex? No be me write bible. I only quote am. If e touch you ,make you repent na.

But e touch Oyakhilome too now and him too be bastard.

So maybe you should first ask your own boss to repent?

Actually, I would like to revise part of my last sentence above ---- in view of the new title for his boss that Joagbaje supplied in his last post here.

Joagbaje, the fraudulent slave of a bastard and spiritual vagabond.

^^^ I'm not per se against "Islamic finance"; I just explained its operation as I see it.

Let me give you a comparable thought: tax evasion is illegal but tax avoidance is perfectly legal --- so consider two companies.

Wayo plc made 1 billion naira profit: with the help of clever lawyers and accountants, it arranged its affairs such that it only needs to pay 1 million naira on the profit. It promptly pays the 1 million naira  and is seen as upright, socially responsible, corporately responsible etc etc etc

Mumu plc made a profit of 10 million naira; it does not have good accountants and lawyers; its tax bill on the 10 million would be 4 million naira; it hides some of its profits and only pays 2 million naira tax; but it is caught and is publicly shamed; it does not enjoy the same recognition, respect and praise that wayo plc enjoys.


So, yes maybe some Islamic financing techniques allow on the surface to say that things like "riba" are being avoided --- but what is the true reality of the transaction? Actually, it is possible that in some instances, the intent is honourable --- maybe even out of necessity: but on the other hand it is also undeniable that some of the techniques are simply disguised forms of western banking.

For us Christians we are supposed to bear in mind principles such as in 1 Samuel 16:7

For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.

eyzhvntsn:
@nuclearboy


1 Corinthians 9: 11 - 27 . . .

18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

I really really wish those who have been saying "the gospel is not free" would think about these things and this kind of passage in a Godly manner and come to Godly repentance!

In fact, I will like to expand very briefly on the murabaha transaction: remember that the basics (from the video and what I first wrote) is this: the Islamic bank buys the equipment and resells at a profit to the borrower company.

In truth, we are really using legal fictions (ok legal principles): when we say the bank buys and sells the equipment --- it is all on paper: the bank does not ever need to see the equipment at all (other than title documents); rather it is the borrower who will go to the real seller of the equipment and conduct the transaction --- except that the lender's name would be inserted as the "buyer" in the purchase document and also as "seller" in the murabaha financing document.

Gimmicks, I tell ye, legal gimicks!

@Pastor aio

Just watching the first video --- I quite like the style and diction of the speaker!

In all honesty, I don't know about Iran or Pakistan.

However, one important word I learned within myself (in my very brief involvement) is h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y.

So I wouldn't be surprised if it is business as usual ---- only by other (disguised) means.

^^^ I'm afraid it is inevitable and I believe the same thing would happen eventually with any supposed "Christian banking".

Remember also, that western lawyers are now heavily involved (I was too, briefly) in structuring these deals (murabaha, mudaraba etc); Western commercial lawyers do it for profit, their clients (the banks) do it for profit --- so someone somehow has to pay.

One other key factor: a lending bank itself has to raise money: so the Islamic (or Christian) bank itself has to borrow money and pay interest to its own creditors --- so how is it going to recoup other than by charging its own borrowers in some way ---- e.g. by disguised forms of interest or "riba"?

In my last post, I just presented a contrast. However, let me use a case that really happened to demonstrate potential consequences.

One company borrowed money from an "Islamic" bank under Murabaha arrangements; the parties said that the transaction was governed inter alia by the Sharia.

When the borrower was sued for defaulting, it argued that the transaction was not enforceable because it did not truly comply with the Sharia and was really a sham to avoid principles of the Sharia. In effect, they argued that they should not have to repay the bank because the bank too was lying that it complied with the Shariah.

Western financing (an aspect of Western banking):

Trader Ltd wants to buy a generator worth 10 million naira; it approaches Greedy Bank for finance; Greedy Bank says we will lend you the money but our interest and fees etc will amount to 2 million naira, so you will repay 12 million naira in 12 monthly instalments.


Islamic finance (or in legal jargon "Sharia-compliant" financing) ---- (an aspect of Islamic banking):

Trader Ltd wants to buy a generator worth 10 million naira; it wants to do it the Islamic way; it approaches Filuus Bank for Islamic finance; Filuus Bank says ok we will use an Islamic finance technique called Murabaha; we will buy the generator for the 10 million naira; then, we will resell it to you for 12 million naira, so you will repay 12 million naira in 12 monthly instalments.

KunleOshob:
@Zikky

How can he use a brain he doesn't possess?

Zikkyy:
There's an alternative He can borrow oyak's brain

If he does that, borrow Oyaks' brain, his last state would be worse than his first!

^^ It is very pitiful! 

They have been so brain-washed they cannot even understand a very simple concept like 'the gospel is free' or 'the good news is free'.

Their problem is that it is all about money ------- they see the gospel as about making people rich and they think it involves money etc.

To help them in their pitiful state, let us say something very simple that even they (of the supposed bone-chewing abilities) can understand.

The gospel, that is, the good news is that Christ has taken away the sin of the world! For heavens sake that is free; that is free; that is free; that is freeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is one of the simplest ways to put it ---- only the brainwashing of this people is so strong such that because they didn't see money or material wealth in that statement they won't believe it.

1 Cor 15:19

If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Joagbaje:
A well raised christian will not do such things.Thats the result of not having a pastor when you have nobody to correct you.

Hebrews 12:8
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Look at this fraudster talking. 

One who is the slave of Oyakhilome the spiritual vagabond insinuating that others are "bastards" (of course twisting scripture in the process as usual). By the way, you forget that by your logic, Oyakhilome too is a bastard --- otherwise tell us his "pastor" or the "somebody" to correct him.

Even people without "pastors" are better than you, you know why? Your master is a fraud and you are steeped deeply in the fraud that you have already learned from him and that you are still learning from him.

The other day, I came across the post in which you posted as mabell --- with the excuse, probably another lie, that she used your system and didn't log out. That is before we get to your Akhozem (and one day we'll catch you properly with Azibalua too)

Anyway, all that is side issue on this thread; for this thread the key issue is this: this pastor that was allegedly involved in these shenanigans, according to your theology he is called and anointed of God, therefore people have no right to criticise him and people should remember "touch not my anointed" etc.

That is your teaching, you fraudulent slave of a spiritual vagabond.

And one more crucial link for the collection especially re understandingS of PSA, Steve Chalke, the "emerging church",  etc

http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/news/2007/20070423wright.cfm?doc=205

But do you not see the contradiction between this

[quote author=Vivian. SA link=topic=193649.msg8591145#msg8591145 date=1309040671]I am only moved by the bible and nothing else and I learnt that from Pastor. And he never said the word as I say it Pastor Chris. He mentioned the whole bible,to study it to show thy selves approved. He did not say study my words but this seems to be what CE has understood him to mean.[/quote]and this?

[quote author=Vivian. SA link=topic=193649.msg8591145#msg8591145 date=1309040671]You can't blame anyone really at CE for acting and thinking as they do because instruction comes from head down without any opinion from your side. Which is why I am not sure what people mean when they talk about opinion in CE because that does not exist. Your opnion on Gods word is irrelevant, the opnion that is taken to be a fact is that of Pastor.[/quote]Then, also consider this!

[quote author=Vivian. SA link=topic=193649.msg8591145#msg8591145 date=1309040671]Which is why when the members eventually reboot their own brains and allow them to function again and form their own opinion, they are dismayed to learn of all the scriptures they ignored in pursuit of studying the words of Pastor Chris and cannot stand even one more day in CE and proclaim themselves to fight the ministry on every side for the damage they sufferred while they were pursuing his words.[/quote]Isn't there a disconnect somewhere?


Does above (as well as the below) not relate to when, thanks be to God, the effect of the brain-washing has worn/started to wear off?

[quote author=Vivian. SA link=topic=193649.msg8591145#msg8591145 date=1309040671]One wonders when they were prepared to fight any person to their last breath when they spoke of them to prefer to follow Pastor in opposition to the whole bible, were these the actions of people awake and in pursuit of the truth or were they as you put it programmed man and unaware of their own thoughts and actions. It cannot take God to come down from heaven to inform us that such behaviour and evidance of our work in the "church" is not what God seeks from us and it is not what he is looking for from us. Matth 3: 9 " For I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."[/quote]

Another useful link: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_atone5.htm

First posted some time ago here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-429416.96.html#msg5908845

federalist:

I am just tired of the whole ruse.

I grew up attending CAC pry school and St John Grammar school, all founded by the early christian.

If not because of St Loius catholic hospital, owo Ondo state, possibly I would have been dead and buried.  A wonderful father in that church was the angel God used to  nurse me back from the from the land of the dead!!!

yet i was a muslim at the time!!!

So when i grew up, i want to know the jesus and God of these these christian more. possibly these led to my conversion. . . . . .

I think this is quite powerful

Some time ago one poster said something in his own unique way which I found touching. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=416595.msg5733391#msg5733391

bigfoot79:
The whole twist is nerve cracking, and i really don't know what or who to follow now