₦airaland Forum

It is incredible that what Jesus said, that where two or three are gathered in His name, He is right there in the midst of them, some people are saying it is not good enough.

Consider:

1. Two or three men regularly meet to pray, sing, fellowship even share meals together; maybe occasionally they hook up with other fellows so the group is enlarged/extended once in a while.

2. 5 families agree to meet up regularly, maybe meeting in members homes in turn, and pray, sing, relax, play (especially the children) together

3. 2,000 people attend a church headed by Reverend King King

4. 20000 people attend a church headed by Pastor Eddie Long


Can someone tell us in which one of this four scenarios is Jesus most likely to be present?

Also, can they tell us if that no 1 and no 2 amount to "forsaking the assembly of the brethren"?



(PS What I have written here is irrespective of what one thinks of the emerging/emergent church!)

Lanrefemi:
Lastly, people always say that Jesus Christ was poor when he was alive, this is not true. If we all read our bible very well, we'll see that Jesus always travel with his disciples and  multitude from city to city, He (Jesus) was the one in charge of feeding these multitudes, and he was able to do that with donations from people in those cities. an example was when he blessed two loaves and five fishes to feed the multitude ( Matthew 14:19).

The above is Bible twisting being fed down to people to manipulate them into believing falsehoods and preparing them for being duped and fleeced. It is being taught and passed down by the very kind of people that this thread is about --- the wolves in sheep clothing making merchandise of people.

On the main topic, I think two issues should be borne in mind: (a) forms of fellowship and (b) doctrine and praxis.

On forms of fellowship, I think the cardinal rule is "where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them". This assumes a few things e.g. that the fellowshippers truly believe in Christ and are gathered because of that unity. In that case, it may not matter much whether we meet in a cathedral, an auditorium or such other large edifices ---- subject to absence of financial abuse potentially arising from the financial cost of building and maintaining such edifices and subject to other vestiges some ceremonial and some more serious e.g. robes and all that and the idea one person (pastor/reverend/bishop) knows it all etc.

In this respect, the "emergent church" or whatever it is called is not all that different from the house church movement. Consider also that in some countries, the church remains necessarily an underground church and the house fellowship format is crucial.

The second issue of doctrine/praxis is an age long issue that was even present from the onset: here now, we run into difficulties of what are the doctrines and practices that cannot be compromised and what are those in respect of which there is liberty. This is not an easy issue to resolve.

In this respect, there are difficulties to bear in mind with the "emergent church", if it becomes too much of an intellectual exercise which ultimately leads to the denigration (not merely questioning or reappraisal) of things that have traditionally been seen as important doctrines especially (and maybe praxis too).

For me an overriding consideration is honesty of purpose and genuine faith in Jesus Christ. This is where I have almost unresolvable difficulty with the prosperity "gospel" because common sense and the fruit of the leading prosperity "gospel" proponents suggest that there is plenty of reason to doubt that they (the leaders) are honest and true believers in Jesus Christ.

Maybe he doesn't want to be known as Eddie the Confessor? Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_the_Confessor

Akan A1:
Comments on this thread plus insults I have had 2 receive has led me 2 do a further research in2 the working of TV Evangelist most especially and the no. of scandals I have come across is really incredible. I seem 2 have seen some aspect of the light concerning these MOG. I even got 2 learn that Dr Albert Odulele is currently serving jail time in London 4 sex crimes. Dr Albert Odulele clearly has the looks of a clean guy. I really wonder what notorious looking Bishop E.L. is actually capable of. The story of these 4 boys might just b the 1st in a series that might go on 4 long except if every1 else will b paid 2 b silence b4 they ever get 2 break the news 2 the public.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_evangelist_scandals

God S.O.Ss, I really don't know what this world is turning in2, All pastors r now preaching about paying of tithe and sowing of seeds if u need a breakthrough,

+1

nuclearboy:
^^ you shall know the truth & the truth shall set you free

People like you who will wonder and do personal research are rare.

The Bible praised the Berean Christians for the attitude you just displayed. Read more, find out more, ask more and you will understand that its not the poverty or frustration mentality you thought it was, that is  motivating people to ask questions and require accountability of supposed "Men of God"

+1

Interesting theory and interesting story. The thing is the world and life are so complex and full of infinite possibilities that hardly can any single theory explain various things that happen. Yes, from a biblical point of view we can say "all things work for good" --- but how?

How do you explain the wicked who end up being rich, live a blissful life and die peacefully and, at least in their own minds, happily and fulfilled ---- when many innocent people suffer all their lives and even die miserably for no obvious fault of their own? Many of the supporter of APC, or whatever they were called, got away with blue murder literally; news reports say some Rwandan murderers are living quietly, I suppose somewhat happily, in the UK. Children are born into poverty and squalor in several parts of the world and die miserable deaths --- some from preventable diseases. Some would attribute these to "previous lives", reincarnation, karma and all that ---- but is that really an adequate explanation?

Meanwhile, that these fates befall honest and genuine Christians as well give the lie to the nonsensical prosperity "gospel" for the thinking Christian or person.

Actually, I've just remembered this thread. Another one where our CEC friends either ran away after being confronted with truths from the Bible. They never did tell us how to pay the other 2, 3 or maybe even 4 types of tithes!

@nuke

Possibly, if we look hard enough we'll find that person named specifically in the Bible as perfect

JeSoul:
. . . I (and everyone else) am certainly not without my shortcomings on NL.

No one is perfect . . .

Zikkyy:
the sad bit is that 'controversy Jo' is somewhere reading this, smiling and puffing on his cuban cigar

The cigar he got from Fideeeel Castro his self! 

It may seem that one/we are turning on Deep Sight but I think the whole foregoing context from page 5 of this thread requires this post especially for the sake of newcomers.

While Deep Sight is making out on this thread that he is "neutral" I think Jesoul had it right: also, I believe that he was going on about "motive" because of his own guilty conscience. After all, having been challenged and exposed for his antagonism to Christianity as Deep Sight, he used a fake second ID (PLASOTLE) to start slightly disguised attacks on Christianity. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-598421.0.html

When his double ID was exposed, he did not have the integrity to apologise; at least, he didn't lie about it though he just grinned and try to laugh it off in a subsequent thread.

Moreover, he has always aligned with Joagbaje when several other Christians were pointing out that Joagbaje was butchering traditionally understood Christian doctrine; and, in doing so, sought to use Joagbaje's doctrine to put the rest of Christianity to ridicule; worse, he does it with rudeness, incivility and even maybe worst the arrogance that comes with a little learning.

This is why for the most part, I try not to get involved with him even when he does say something I agree with (occasionally).

newmi:
So Mr. Enigma please you have pointed out certain areas of which in your own reasoning you consider as "heresies" my question to you is in what way does these things you have mentioned amount to be described as "heresies".
Also what is your own definition of "the gospel" that is "the gospel" to you.

Regarding heresies: they amount to heresies because they/some of them (a) go against the teachings of Christ; (b) go against the teachings of the apostles; (c) go against the historic teaching of the Church; (d) go against common sense; (e) are demonic.

In any event, you are wasting my time because you know well that on various threads, we explained teachings that were unbiblical and why but what did you do? Run away; get evasive when asked simple questions; join together with the rest of your cohort to derail the topic completely with inanities and insults as you lot are shamefully doing only just above and as you are well known for.

A few of the questions that you lot (and you personally) have run away from.

1. Was Jesus "born again"?
2. Was Jesus tortured in hell by Satan and demons?
3. Can Christians pray to or through Christ.
4. Are you Christ?
5. Is a non-tither robbing God?

This is a very small number of the questions that you have run away from.

Regarding your request on what is the gospel, read the below and work your way from there.

Romans 5

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

You guys can continue preaching your heresies; at least you are getting some crumbs from Oyakhilome; it is the mumus who are giving you frauds their "tithes", offerings, and "offer 7s" that I pity more than anything.

Yeah, and "message" is only from "Pastor Chris"!

Slave of man; slave of a preacher of anti-Christ messages.

The gospel of Christ puts you to shame --- hence you can't put messages up from it; only messages from "Pastor Chris". Rubbish!

You can keep putting up your "Pastor Chris" messages -- who cares? It only confirms more and more that you worship a man. Remember that even non-Christians have told you so on some of those threads.

Nah, you cannot understand that defending the message of Jesus against wolves and anti-Christs is also preaching the gospel of Jesus.

Compare you and your lot whose role here is to promote one man --- Oyakhilome and his anti-Christ messages. Even as we speak, Joagbaje has just put two threads up with Oyakhilome's messages (although now he has been shamed into removing "- Pastor Chris" when he puts them up); but you don't see fit to ask him why he never puts up a message from Christ's gospel, from any of the gospels, from any of the epistles --- only messages from "Pastor Chris"!

Worshippers of man --- not even a decent man but a man with an anti-Christ message!

Nah, I actually only saw/remembered "milk drinkers" a few moments ago when I read your post again. However, I did remember that you ran away as Oyakhilome's yansh was being exposed.

Well, Christians happily pray to and through Jesus Christ from the beginning of Christianity as we showed with several examples on that thread.

We are not surprised that people like Oyakhilome who antagonise the message of Christ say Christians should not pray to or through Christ.

So desperate you post it twice? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-688396.0.html

Snowwy:
@Enigma,
i a honoured you had to ask thrice then.
The question has a source right? Why don't you get the answer from there and quit trying to get my attention.
You already have a mindset about me, I wonder what esle you are looking for.

Ah, the evasive tactic here as the running away on the other thread just e-x-a-c-t-l-y like Joagbaje. Or is it also like newmi that you are too afraid to disagree with Oyakhilome publicly?

May the God of Truth set you all free from this bondage.

For the records, this is the thread leading to that question: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-655784.0.html

After Snowwy shakara'ed us "milk drinkers" with his post #49 he disappeared when we exposed Oyakhilome's yansh once again and his anti-Christ message.

@Snowwy

In case you missed it, I've asked you this question twice now on this thread: do you still believe that Christians should not pray to or through Jesus Christ?

Why do people do the kind of foolishness being displayed by image123 here?

1 Cor 11:21

KJV

For in eating every one taketh before [other] his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

NIV 

for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.

NASB

for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk.

BBE

For when you take your food, everyone takes his meal before the other; and one has not enough food, and another is the worse for drink.

Darby

For each one in eating takes his own supper before others, and one is hungry and another drinks to excess.

Weymouth

for it is his own supper of which each of you is in a hurry to partake, and one eats like a hungry man, while another has already drunk to excess.

@image123, do you see how foolish you are making yourself look with this?

@Nuke

I will say, along with zikky, that it is not worth it.

;d ;d ;d

What exactly are you (like Deep Sight) alleging I support? Did you read my post carefully? I said many will think Nuclearboy was wrong but I could see why he may feel he owes you no duty of confidentiality. I then left that point to express my own honest assessment of you. So what are you talking about?

Look you are wasting your time and my time because I will not indulge what you are asking. Anyway, talking of "support", you forget that you have insulted me several times when directly supporting Joagbaje; I wouldn't have brought this up but for your insistence. I posted what I posted and that is that. That is my view and I'm sticking to it. If you don't like it that is not my look out. I see you expressing a lot of views but I choose not to get involved.

So please, stop wasting my and your time.


Typos corrected.

Deep Sight:
I urge you not to attribute a motive to everything. I find the persecution and vitriol obnoxious. That is my view. Got no motive other than that which I have stated. In fact there are others who share my view. Do you regard them all to be as insidiously evil and hypocritical as Deep Sight? Come on.

I repeat: if people disagree: disagreement is permitted. The man has always cited scripture to support his contentions. Please simply carry on citing your own scripture as well to debunk them. That's the essence of a good debate. No need to get personal.

But then, some people always get personal once their convictions are challenged.

I'm afraid your urging is lost on me. I have written what I wrote and I stand by it: some support Joagbaje because it suits their caricature of Christianity, some because it does not reproach them, others because they do similar things like double IDs etc.

Low of the low; just like Oyakhilome saying non-tithers are robbing God which none of his followers have denied.

All these mega church preachers, especially in debt economies in the West unlike Nigeria, have one problem: if mumus do not keep the cash rolling in, the empire faces collapse. Read e.g. about Schuller's Crystal Cathedral; see what happened to Carlton Pearson after the rest of the televangelists turned against him for preaching inclusionism; even Eddie Long had to make cut-backs recently, sacking people when "tithes" and offerings dropped after his peccadilloes were first disclosed; in fact, it may be worth keeping an eye on what happens to his "church" in the near future, he is already upping the appeal asking people to increase giving to him to $500 and $1000 dollars etc.

This particular thief in the video above actually goes on to ask people to give him their bank account details --- for real, no joke; see video in link below!

http://vimeo.com/16359090

The idea of a compendium of some of Joagbaje's stuff is a good idea. As a matter of fact, I did something in the same spirit, though different, last year when I selected a number of his nonsenses that I called "specials" to address specifically. Unfortunately, many people will not understand and will read the wrong motive and even alleged "malice" into such a thread. Others prefer to support Joagbaje because it suits them: some of the non-Christians prefer to use his type of portrayal of Christianity as their straw-man for attacking Christianity; some prefer some of his more "worldly" approach because it does not reprove them; some will support his actions like using double-IDs because they do the same etc etc etc.

The idea of the compendium thread may still be viable either expressly as proposed or indirectly by individuals identifying his previous nonsenses piece-meal and posting the link(s) in say an on-going discussion.

texazzpete:
I like how you zombies can easily dismiss all the evils he's done as 'going through a wreck'.

As for your comment on his guilt or innocence not being relevant, may I remind you that part of the accusations against him is for sexually molesting young men.

That is pretty big deal, lemme tell ya.

Ah ha!

See, there is this 15 year old boy in Eddie Long's church; he is a troubled boy and needs counselling.

Who here is confident to recommend one one counselling with Eddie Long for the boy?

And the foolish Bible-twisting frauds and mugus say "Eddie Long has been forgiven" and that is the end of the matter. Disgraceful people who bring shame to Christianity.

I am truly disappointed by the disingenuity of image123's posts --- I guess nothing is surprising on this forum, but still . . .

Anyway this is what happened when Jesus himself celebrated the Last Supper: Matthew 26

26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

30When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

I suppose that according to image123's logic, when Jesus said "drink" there, he meant "be fairly fully satisfied with food".

EDIT The same 1 Cor 11 gives the lie to image123's interpretation when Paul asked: don't you have houses to eat or drink in?

Why do we have to deceive ourselves? What is the point of denying that which is straightforward? Look, even many non-religious people will tell you that drunkenness is not good. I haven't seen a Christian (oh, maybe one person implied it) on this board who says drunkenness is good.

On this thread at least, no one is saying drunkenness is good. But not supporting drunkenness does not require lies and a juvenile mentality. The truth and the mature mentality is that the Bible does not prohibit the drinking of alcohol in all instances. The truth is also that in all probability, according to the Bible, the wine that Jesus drank was alcoholic wine. So why lie, why be immature, why twist that passage in 1 Corinthians 11? It is all rather pitiful!

But we make His love too narrow
By false limits of our own;
And we magnify His strictness
With a zeal He will not own.

From "There's a Wideness in God's Mercy"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnXvO2S6ktU

Further on whether Abraham's righteousness was a gift or he "worked" for it, let us also note the following for the records:

Romans 4

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works . . .

Is this passage not saying that Abraham's righteousness was a gift.  Oh, and David says the person to whom God credits righteousness is "blessed" --- do people also "work" for the blessing?


@Snowwy

Meanwhile, if you do have a moment, please address this question that I asked in post #113: do you still believe that Christians should not pray to or through Jesus Christ?

^^And when we deal with you by scripture you run away, keep quiet for a few days, then resume spreading the same poison. Example (at the running away stage) on this very thread.