₦airaland Forum

Suggestion and Response to Mod

I oppose the idea of unstickying the Christian Chat thread specifically. If people speak of fairness, then unstickying the Christian Chat thread will be the height of unfairness. It was unique and it was uniquely granted a sticky status.

No other thread met the requirement that led to the Christian Chat thread being made a sticky. If people think fairness is having a non-Christian chat thread sticky, I will not object.

I do not see the point for a general sticky thread. Everyone has the liberty to open any thread and fulminate whatever they like - within the Rules. That is the whole idea of a discussion forum. If there is a need desire for a general discussion thread ok, BUT the thread does not have to be a sticky!

^^^ It does not matter to me which threads the Mods choose to be sticky; it is their prerogative.

My post was a suggestion. The Mods can be expected to make their decision based on what considerations they think important.

A comment from the same Independent newspaper piece that was used as source for OP

"This guy has been debunked for over 8 years. I don't know why the Independent are dredging this up. The theory is recognised to be absolutely ridiculous by just about all biblical scholars and scholars of antiquity.

www.caesarsmessiahdebunked.com "

Comment and Suggestion

@ HBG, Ajibam & Obadiah777

1. I think that one of the first lessons you need to learn and imbibe as moderators is: never come to the forum and discuss openly what you have debated in private --- even when you disagreed.

For example, HBG should have simply said "the moderators decided to sticky the Welcome thread and we'll see how it goes". You should never have said or indicated it is 2-1; (EDIT) and both Obadiah and Ajibam should have invited her to the backroom after her comment rather than fuel the fire. This is called 'collective responsibility'. Only in exceptional or important circumstances should you depart from this approach.

2. As for the stickies, here is my own recommendation:
- what ever you do, the Christian Chat thread must remain a sticky; it is the only thread that earned its place as a sticky even without asking or without any campaign; the former Mods realised its popularity and unilaterally decide to sticky it.
- The Religion Complaints thread should also remain a sticky because of its utility. I suggest it should be retitled the 'Religion Complaints and Suggestions Thread'.
- All the other stickies can go! The non-Christian Chat thread is essentially just occupying space; the Religion Section Library Reference or whatever is also just occupying space, how many people actually bother to use it or even know it is there or its purpose? As one poster said, the search box is a far more effective tool than the 'Reference thread'! The reference thread is no better or more useful than a couple of existing threads on memorable quotes etc.

Well, these are just the views of 'an elderly statesman' who really should be retiring from here.

Joagbaje: Tithing is what Satan is fighting so hard .

Nah, Jo! satan is not fighting tithing at all; he is very much for it as it helps his evil and opposition to Jesus. When people focus so much on tithes, they don't focus on what Jesus asked them to do or even more generally what they are supposed to do. Even your Matthew 23:23 is an example -- and of course you see Jesus say woe to ---- the tithers!

Joagbaje: Everybody almost have the culture of giving to the poor . We are very kind to strangers and poor especially in Africa .

I will only say, let us hope this is true.

Joagbaje: In the days of Jesus , people neglected the poor , and God had to address it.

Ah, so today people are not neglecting the poor? So God is no longer addressing "it"? God's focus is now "tithes"?

Well, as I said, Satan is quite happy with "tithing" and with your argument. It helps him to nullify or reduce people's focus on Jesus' instructions about caring for the poor.

Joagbaje: Churches do preach about helping the poor and churches do have Programmes just to reach out to the less privilege . Critics don't really see that.

Yeah you may be right --- to an extent. Imagine a Church that gives a whole 1 million naira to buy rice and things for the poor --- only for us to learn that the church took in 50 million naira in tithes and offering in the same period!

Even secular organisations do similar things; some call it 'corporate social responsibility'.

^^^ Ah, if you are "Stil following the thread shaa" (sic), here is a bonus for you .

From online Encyclopaedia Britannica (Schools edition; see especially the last paragraph.

"catholic, (from Greek katholikos, “universal”), the characteristic that, according to ecclesiastical writers since the 2nd century, distinguished the Christian Church at large from local communities or from heretical and schismatic sects. A notable exposition of the term as it had developed during the first three centuries of Christianity was given by St. Cyril of Jerusalem in his Catecheses (348): the church is called catholic on the ground of its worldwide extension, its doctrinal completeness, its adaptation to the needs of men of every kind, and its moral and spiritual perfection.

The theory that what has been universally taught or practiced is true was first fully developed by St. Augustine in his controversy with the Donatists (a North African heretical Christian sect) concerning the nature of the church and its ministry. It received classic expression in a paragraph by St. Vincent of Lérins in his Commonitoria (434), from which is derived the formula: “What all men have at all times and everywhere believed must be regarded as true.” St. Vincent maintained that the true faith was that which the church professed throughout the world in agreement with antiquity and the consensus of distinguished theological opinion in former generations. Thus, the term catholic tended to acquire the sense of orthodox.

Some confusion in the use of the term has been inevitable, because various groups that have been condemned by the Roman Catholic Church as heretical or schismatic never retreated from their own claim to catholicity. Not only the Roman Catholic Church but also the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, and a variety of national and other churches claim to be members of the holy catholic church, as do most of the major Protestant churches."

OLAADEGBU: ... Don't be a Mountebank. ....

Ah, many thanks for that word "mountebank"!

One definition of "mountebank":

"Noun

1. A person who deceives others, esp. in order to trick them out of their money; a charlatan.
2. A person who sold patent medicines in public places.

Synonyms
charlatan - quack - impostor"

Nuff said!

If it is only Five naira that a person can afford, it is not an insult to God.

God did not consider the widow's mite an insult.

If a person sees five beggars and gives each of them 20 Naira, the 20 naira given to each beggar is actually given to Jesus. And guess what, Jesus Christ Himself said so!

^^^

Jealousy of jerry curls and fake accent?

You know very well that Opaks was proven conclusively to be a vagabond ---- according to criteria that you supplied! So your latter day attempt to fine tune things for his sake does not wash.

And how do you know that the people you are criticising here are not "being in authority" or "leading" or "leading God's people"?

Oh, and once again, remember one of the questions that arose from your criteria and which proved Oyaks too to be a vagabond? Who ordained hm and when?

Joagbaje: Youre right they are spiritual vagabonds having no church

As you know, the vagabond means one Pastor Chris or, as you people write, Pastor Christ.

EDIT And of course you are the one who supplied the criteria for determining that a person, such as he, is a vagabond.

And this your original statement below also applies to him --- as you know, because it was shown to you by at least three people in the past.

".... You are right , by their fruits you know them . ....
... How many of them are under any pastoral leadership .as I keep saying their problem is beyond tithe . It's a spirit of rebellion . ...."

Joagbaje: .... You are right , by their fruits you know them . ....
... How many of them are under any pastoral leadership .as I keep saying their problem is beyond tithe . It's a spirit of rebellion . ....

But the above is also true of the vagabond isn't it?

DrummaBoy: My sincere apologies to the OP for responding to this post late.

When I stopped tithing March this year, I had a similar challenge. I felt defrauded all these years and didn't want to associate with any tithe collecting church.

Those derogated as anti tithers on this forum were the ones who encouraged me to continue in that church in spite of. And I thank God I did bc I am helping others comprehend the tithe matter too.

Last weekend I attended a retreat in Lagos by Crown Bible Church. They do not preach tithes. Small church but doing great things for God.

I understand Church of Christ also do not preach tithes.

But I think it doesn't matter whether a church preaches tithes or does not; we can remain there as long as we are not thrown out or God has not specifically led us else where.

The primary error of tithe teaching is that it is fundamental to these churches. We cannot join in this error by making anti tithe fundamental also and then leave tithe churches.

Hope this helps...

Excellent excellent post. A church may have many other good qualities even though it preaches/practises tithing. There are examples of such churches. And a person who disagrees with the teaching of tithing may yet find good reasons to keep attending that church --- perhaps unless and until he finds one equally agreeable with the added bonus of not preaching tithing.

I have said on this forum that while I understand the "come out of her" approach, one may still choose to keep attending traditional/institutional churches. Generally, I do not like using myself as an example but I have also said here before that when I'm in Nigeria I attend a church that actually preaches tithing!

Obviously, the likelihood is that even people who tithe do not agree 100% with everything taught or done in their churches unless they are complete mumus or blindly loyal. (Actually, 'blindly loyal' can apply not only to tithing people but to people of other denominations especially those claiming that their church is the only true church or the first or the one who 'compiled' or even wrote or perhaps magically and solely produced the "Bible" yadayadayada)

One other thing, even among the members of churches that preach tithing how many people actually pay the tithes? There is no question that there are some who do not "pay" tithes at all and it is also arguable that what some present as "tithes" is not actually 10 per cent.

^^^ "Mandatory", "obligatory" etc

So all this time, you never really understood the argument? Why then would I want to waste my time with you?

No wonder you were asked for ten reasons why your ignorance should be indulged!

Image123: No fight at all on Enigma.
You just told me to go and sell all my possessions. If no, then sorry i misunderstood you.
i'm aware that Alwaystrue and co have replied you on that passage. Confirm that ou require extra explanation on the passage?

OK, and I too apologise for my tone; I could have easily been much softer.

Oh no, I do not for myself require an explanation of the 'go sell all and give to the poor' passage.

The way I treat these discussions is that of each side putting down their ideas and people reading, seekers, confused people etc will have different perspectives to take into account.

Now I expect that if someone reading the thread is told that tithing is obligatory because of 'bring all the tithe' s/he will also have the presence of mind to think or even ask why giving all to the poor is not also obligatory because of 'go sell all and give it to the poor'.

Image123: Have you? i love to practice what i preach, instead of being like the pharisees who say and do not.

So now I am going to accuse you of lying especially since you impliedly called me a Pharisee.

You are lying in TWO respects.

1. I have never said that Jesus commanded a Christian to sell all he has - so accusing me of being a Pharisee about that is false. {of course the simple argument has always been clear: if we are to follow 'bring ALL the tithe' THEN why are we not to follow 'go sell ALL you have'?}

2. You lie when you say you practise what you preach unless (a) you can claim that you have sold ALL and given it to the poor or at least (b) explain why we are to follow 'bring ALL the tithe' but not 'Go and sell ALL and give it to the poor'.



PS It is a pity you too seem to want to turn this into fight --- but again it's all good.

Image123: Bring ye ALL the tithe.

Go sell ALL you have and give it to the poor.

Image123: Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Ah, na so the answer to my questions pass my friend, he take style digress --- completely.

It's all good!

Processor01: To be frank, there has been so much debate on here about tithing and while I have completely stopped tithing I still find it hard to fit into churches that still practice this.

I was wondering if others could share a list of churches that do not preach tithing.

Waiting for the likes of Drummaboy, Goshen, Pastor Kun, Candour and all others.

GOD BLESS

What the OP asked for is that which is bolded above. The answers provided to that have already well exceeded 10.

OK the OP mentions "anti-tithe"; BUT we can see clearly what the OP means by that i.e. churches that do not preach tithing. Again, as I said, the answers provided have already exceeded ten.

As another poster suggested, the use of language on the thread suggests that this is the dichotomy:

"Pro-tithe" churches = churches who preach obligatory/mandatory tithing.

"Anti-tithe" = churches that do not preach obligatory/mandatory tithing.

A couple of observations:

The use of "anti-tithe" for individuals is obviously an attempt to paint the challengers of the tithing doctrine negatively, effectively an ad hominem. To some extent, this is understandable in the sense that the tithing opponents can be said to be anti i.e. against tithe (though even that is not quite accurate!).

The use of "anti-tithe" for "churches" is a deliberate or duplicitous chicanery because churches are not the ones as such contending the tithing doctrine. Rather what churches do is adopt a doctrinal stance and preach/practice that stance. What is more, there is no church that says if a giver chooses to give or make an offering of 10% they will not accept it!

See how absurd it can get: Oyedepo does his slapping deliverance, is he pro-slapping? Are churches who don't do slapping "anti-slapping"?

What about "pro anointing oil" versus "anti-anointing oil"? What about "pro-holiness" versus "anti-holiness" (make Deeper they fight Chris Embassy on that one).

The arguments of the tithe-mongers on the biblical teaching are weak as is already well known. Their quest for "anti-tithe" churches is a puerile nonsense that is only worthy of such as tithe-mongers to be honest.

^^ Ah bros, I never reach that side for a little while now! Is there a particular thread for yonder?

Also, if it is FTA generally I should be ok but I'm quite behind on Naija FTA specifically at the moment; I don slack that one small.

Candour: Because its not a competition and the fraudsters have engulfed the entire landscape. Is that so difficult to understand?

God is bringing his children out of the bondage just as he used one man to deliver the Christian world from the sale of indulgences.

There are churches that do not preach or collect tithes, but more importantly more and more Christians are discovering the truth and learning to think independently of the charlatans in suit and that is very evident on this forum.

Even in America where a lot of the ills that plague some forms of Christianity emanate and are quite prominent, see the surprising result of a survey done only two or so years ago in 2011.

From here http://www.nae.net/resources/news/547-evangelical-leaders-say-tithe-not-required

Short extract

"[size=14pt]Evangelical Leaders Say Tithe Not Required[/size]
Many evangelical churches regularly encourage their members to tithe, or give the church at least 10 percent of their income. Yet, according to the February Evangelical Leaders Survey, most evangelical leaders do not believe the Bible requires Christians to tithe. The survey showed that 58 percent do not believe the Bible requires a tithe, while 42 percent do."

^ Actually, the other guy must produce ten reasons why his ignorance should be indulged.

He gambled; his opponent raised the stakes; now he wants to chicken out.

^^^

And the passage in fuller detail:

"8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation."


So who is cursed with a curse? Which nation - Nigeria? Christendom?

Edit: Oh and of course which nation was doing the robbing?

Oga Jo

OK o da, ma binu again. But iwo lo start e o!

Meanwhile Jo, I want you to read up about the Plymouth Brethren. Have you ever heard about them? I want you to compare some of the things you advocate e.g. power/authority of pastors, even your "tithe" etc with their own approach.

OK, time for a little fun.

About this Melchizedek and the spoils business, here is an interesting comparison.

Numbers 31

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep,

33 72,000 cattle,

34 61,000 donkeys

35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:

337,500 sheep, 37of which the tribute for the Lord was 675;

38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the Lord was 72;

39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the Lord was 61;

40 16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the Lord was 32.

41[b]Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part, as the Lord commanded Moses[/b].

Jo

I think I know the leader of that Sheep without Shepherd Assembly. I believe that you once called him a vagabond --- one Pastor Chris or is it Pastor Christ as you people frequently type.

Actually, it is not difficult to identify ten "churches" that do not practise tithing. By the time you add various Eastern Orthodox Churches, or, outside of that, various national Churches e.g. example being given by the lady nora534(??) {an Austrian?) on other threads and even some Pentecostal Churches like Mcarthur's church etc, you will readily count more than ten.

It is possible that you can count up to ten that do not teach tithing (eg Petres 007's church) or that do not teach it in the same way as the predominant teaching e.g. Tunde Bakare's church etc. ---- even in Nigeria.

God2man: @Enigma,candour, pastor kun,

You have all shifted ground to another thing.

Simple question begging for answers.

Give us 10 Anti-tithe churches from all over the world.

All the churches you have mentioned are all in the U.K, and these churches have the same doctine as the one in Nigeria, or are you saying that catholics, anglicans, baptist and methodis in Nigeria have different doctrine from the one in U.K?


Yes! For the fact everyone is doing it doest not make it right. You have forgotten to add that what everyone is doing has Biblical backing. Yes, everyone is doing it, why? They stood on the promise of God, they are not just following crowd, they are following the scripture, the WORD, and that WORD is JESUS. So, One with God is the Majority.
It does not mattter whether you are many or not, the truth is, you are following the promise of God concerning tithe.


They have started insult, "i am ignorant about church history"

Goggle it. All the info about church history are there for you.

God bless you.
God2man.

Oh yeah, like you have not "started insult" when you were repeatedly calling people "anti-tithers"? Or like you were not condescending in your posts on this thread --- even if ignorantly so! An ignorant person is an ignoramus; it is not an insult, it is fact; only that out of politeness one doesn't use the word 'ignoramus' until it is invited or its use deserved.

And you say people should google church history --- but of course you are not able to use Google to find out which churches do not teach tithing. And you think the Christian Church is confined to Nigeria?

^^^ What the post above demonstrates is that some of these tithe-mongers are ignoramuses, ignorant of Christian history and even incapable of learning/acknowledging the truth.

Tithing was not part of Christianity from the day of Pentecost until only a few hundred years ago when some greedy (and even desperate) opportunists introduced it and some other greedy opportunists have seized on it since ---- even when the first greedy lot who introduced it have since repented of it.

When a person asks for a list of churches that don't tithe, the person is just showing his ignorance of Christianity and that all he knows is Nigerian Pentecostal Christianity.

I mean we can speak of various Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, and e.g. in UK Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists etc etc. Compared to this, while Nigerian Pentecostalism may be broad, it is a late comer compared to these much longer established traditions. In any event some evangelical and Pentecostal churches do not teach tithing.

God2man: What is the meaning of this?

Where do anti-tithers stand?

Anglicans are Not tithing in the U.K, you will be suprised if they are tithing here.
Also, you will be suprised if Catholics are preaching tithing here, oyinbo churches are not tithing in the U.K except the pentecostals.

Where do we go from here?

God will help us.

God2man.

^^^

Were you not mocking the suggestion/claim that there are Churches that do not teach or practise tithing?

Complaint

Sorry Mods, I have one more complaint; to be honest I have lots and lots and lots more but I will leave it to these two for now.

This post on the same thread I mentioned in my first complaint also contains false information.

https://www.nairaland.com/1408199/meditations-mysteries-holy-rosary-joyful/3#18627275

"Pls there's notin like pentecostal or catholic style!
We are the church of pentecost!whether they like it or not,Jesus and his apostles were catholics!
Non catholics are prostestants!!!"

All of the bolded and especially the red are false (and an insult to my Lord)!; the black bold is telling falsehoods about (at least some) protestants; there are "non-Catholics" who are not "protestants".