₦airaland Forum

Complaint

Similar to the complaint above, the following thread and especially the linked and quoted post contains false information contrary to rule 8. I think it might just be fair to consider both posts when deciding what to do about these two complaints.

https://www.nairaland.com/1408199/meditations-mysteries-holy-rosary-joyful/3#18634132

I am highlighting a particularly false line in red.
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"How
do we know the Truth?
"the Church is the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Tim iii.15)
Christ could not have sent his Apostles to "go and teach all
nations"(Mtt 28:19) if he did not send them with the pure truth and with
his grace that they may be able to infallibly teach that truth "even to
the consummation of the world."
There is "only one faith" (Eph. iv.5) and "without it, it is impossible
to please God" Heb. xi.6.
How are we to know the truth?: "We are of God. He that knoweth God
heareth us. He that is not of God heareth us not. By this we know the
spirit of truth and the spirit of error." (1Jn iv.6) that "we" is the Church.
Amidst all arguments, we know what exactly is the true teaching of
Christ by paying attention to the testimony, teaching and authority of
His holy Church. And there is only one church: "one body" (Eph. iv.4) that's the Catholic Church and
outside of her no man at all can be saved."

It is funny that the Anglican Church in Nigeria teaches tithing when the Anglican Church in the UK does not teach or practise tithing. Also, most of the traditional denominations e.g. Roman Catholics, Baptists etc in the UK do not teach or practise tithing.

Because of the tight control of Rome over Roman Catholics, I will be surprised if the Catholics in Nigeria overtly teach tithing since Rome does not teach it anymore AFAIK! I suppose the case of the Anglicans is understandable because of the loose nature of the Communion's churches in different countries as compared to the Catholics for example.

In the UK, among oyinbo churches (except for some Pentecostals), tithing is an irrelevance that is hardly discussed and rarely mentioned.

^^^ Don't worry, one day your cup will become full. Then, you will hear from me.

Bidam: Your lies are baseless and unfounded.....

I see it has turned into abuse. And I was not even talking to you! I will let you get away with it on this occasion ---- you might not be so lucky next time.

^^^ Sooo, where did Jesus ask any Christian to "tithe" in any form whatsoever --- whether of mint, cummin talk less of money?

@olivertwist

I appreciate your answer; thanks a lot.

About your reference to King Saul and the Amalekites, the simple answer is that there is No commandment or obligation for a Christian to tithe.

As to your answer that Mr D is robbing God, in disobedience, sinning and inviting the devourer - I am afraid it contradicts what Jesus said.

What Jesus said is that by giving to the orphanage, Mr D is actually giving to Jesus Himself.

Finally may I ask one more question: why is it not a sin of disobedience if a Christian does not do as Jesus said in the following -

Jesus said: ""If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

@Olivertwist

Answer this please:

Mr D earns 1000 per month; each month he gives 50 in church and 150 to a local orphanage.

Is Mr D tithing? Is Mr D robbing God? Is Mr D committing a sin? Is Mr D inviting the devourer?

^^^ The funny thing is that some of our friends who have been talking about "God's tithe" have not been able to supply a biblical definition of "God's tithe".

And of course it is easy to see why: "God's tithe" is actually clearly defined in Leviticus 27 and its purposes specified in Numbers and Deuteronomy etc. What our friends are insisting upon today is nowhere to be seen in the biblical definition of "God's tithe" and at the least fails to acknowledge two of the purposes that God specified for His tithe.

^^^ In like manner, give us one Bible passage where it says Christians should tithe money and that it should be paid into "church".

Give us one passage that says tithes cannot go to the poor or to an orphanage or to an old people's home etc!

^^^ Like I have time for your "argument! lol

You do not have time but you quote my post which was not directed to you.. Na so.

Anyway, for the benefit of those whom it will benefit:

Roman Catholic Church: "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved ...."

versus

Jesus Christ: "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved ..."

Ubenedictus: a friend once told me '' i know where the church is and i truly want everyone to be there too, but i know little of where she isn't''. I told him ''you really seem wise''.

Hmmm, interesting!

Roman Catholic Church: 'Outside the Roman Catholic Church no man at all can be saved'

versus

Jesus Christ: "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live"

Naturally, a wise person will follow the words of Jesus of course.

PaulinusMary: .... And there is only one church: "one body" Eph. iv.4 and outside of her no man at all can be saved. That's the Catholic Church.

Bros, so you are saying that someone like me who is ouside of the Roman Catholic Church cannot be saved?

@Sirmuell

It wasn't me that deleted your original post. As you can see even my earlier post telling you this has now also been deleted. As I said in that post, when this people are discussing/doing their 'rosary' and stuff like that we can leave them alone; in my view it is when they speak/spread falsehood about Christianity or Christian history that we might need to bother with them or to tell them some home truths.

peppy luv: Pls there's notin like pentecostal or catholic style!
We are the church of pentecost!whether they like it or not,Jesus and his apostles were catholics!
Non catholics are prostestants!!!

[img]http://.net/i/476.gif[/img]

Oh by the way, was the Roman Catholic "pope" also the head of the "Church" when "Jesus and his apostles were catholics"?

Deleted

Candour: haba!!! because he stopped tithing you're declaring woe? Is that the worst sin in your opinion? If you hear he commited murder, what will you say?

This is serious

Na only that one? what about the one below?

Easyfren: Those who are against tithes are either antichrist or showing lack of Bible knowledge. They claim Malachi chapter 3 was not stated by Christ as it is in the Old Testament but where the Old Testament promises blessings, healing, long life and wealth, the antitithers claim it as their portion. If you choose what and where to obey in the Bible, you are antichrist. It's not just enough to believe in God because the devil also believes and trembles.

stevewale: BUT we are all not into farming, how do we salary earners pay tithe then?

There is NO obligation on a Christian to pay "tithe".

stevewale: @Enigma, I'm refering to paying the entire 20% into the tithe envelope instead of the required 10% and church doesn't see that as disobedience or a sin

I know! And I am asking you deliberately to consider whether any of the people in my first post is in disobedience or sinning. In fact, I give you one more example as follows.

Mr. D earns 1000 per month. Every month he gives 50 in/to "church"; he then gives 150 to two local orphanages (75 each). Is Mr D sinning or in disobedience?

Please consider carefully: which one of the following three people is in disobedience or sinning?

1. Mr A earns 1000 a month; unfailingly he gives 100 a month as "tithe" in/to "church"; he gives 50 a month as offering; he then gives up to 20 to other needy causes outside "church".

2. Mr B earns 1000 a month; he gives anything up to 90 in/to church every month, he then gives 110 to other needy causes outside the "church".

3. Mrs C is a seller of "provisions"; any time that she is going to buy stock, she buys 10% extra (e.g. instead of buying 100 cans of milk, she buys 110); she regularly takes the extra 10% to her local orphanage; she then gives about 5% of her net profits in/to "church".

InesQor: ...Well said, Enigma.

Image123: ... It is hoped that the main issues are not neglected and this taken as some sort of spoils.

And it is also important to always be clear on the identification of the main issues:

- no condemnation upon people who with full/proper information or knowledge of both sides of the argument choose to tithe;
- the teaching of tithing as obligatory or compulsory is debatable and remains open to challenge.

In fact let us have a little play with The Didache


11 Welcome the Teacher

11:1 Welcome the teacher when he comes to instruct you in all that has been said.

11:2 But if he turns and trains you in another tradition to the destruction of this teaching, do not listen. If he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord.

11:3 Act according to the precepts of the gospel concerning all apostles and prophets:

11:4 Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord.

11:5 But he must not remain more than one day, or two, if there's a need. If he stays three days, he is a false prophet.

11:6 And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread to last him until his next night of lodging. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet.

11:7 In addition, if any prophet speaks in the Spirit, you shall not try or judge him; for every sin will be forgiven, but this sin cannot be forgiven.

11:8 But not everyone who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; only he is a prophet who has the ways of the Lord about him. By their ways will the false prophet and the prophet be known.

11:9 Any prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it; if he does, he is indeed a false prophet.

11:10 And any prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet.

11:11 When a prophet, proved true, works for the mystery of the church in the world but does not teach others to do what he himself does, he will not be judged among you, for his judgment is already before God. The ancient prophets acted in this way, also.

11:12 But whoever says in the Spirit, "Give me money,"or something else like this, you must not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for the sake of others who are in need, let no one judge him.

^^^ For example Deuteronomy 14

Eat your tithes, give to widows, orphans etc as well, as Levites.

Plain scripture --- dem suddenly replace am with some "principle" thing!

Bidam: I don't need your unchristian comments bro..I am free to air my opinions.Stay blessed.

Of course!

Let me give you a bonus lesson in integrity.

If Kelly replaces Holy Spirit for one side, does Sproul replace the Holy Spirit for the other as well?

Bidam: I guess this is the mysterious russel kelly our anti-tithers get their rebuttal from instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to study to bible.

The carnal way this guy inteprete scriptures is amazing.He already has a phd in antithing theology

I try hard to like you but you really can be a disgrace sometimes. This is one of such occasions.

@Mark Miwerds

Lol

Sorry sir, my excuse is that I have not read through carefully yet; just that the reference to The Didache caught my eyes.

Just a note to say that those who claim that The Didache refers to "tithing" are being quite misleading. What they are relying on are not direct references to tithes but statements in relation to "first fruits" and "commandment"; those statements and the way they are couched, especially when the reference to commandment is said in the same breath as indicating free choice on the part of the giver, raise issues of interpretation. The Didache itself does not mention "tithes"!

Here are two translations of The Didache; let us see who will be the first to find the word "tithe" in it!

http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Didache-text.html

http://www.paracletepress.com/didache.html


Meanwhile, those interested may find a rebuttal to the RC Sproul essay by Russell Kelly (incidental a registered member of Nairaland) here http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id172.html

@Ihe

Yeah, tithing can be contentious and raise temperatures and to be honest it has been a generally good natured thread even at that!

A couple of things:

1. I'm going to have to disagree with you about "the categories that the tithe covered". It very clearly covered foreigners and the tither himself. And to that extent the OT tithe very clearly went out of the family.

2. About castigating anyone who spits tithe: I think you ought to observe more carefully. Speaking for myself, I joined this thread because the prevailing tone seemed to be of a discussion for the purposes of mutual understanding than the usual fights. Also, it was actually this thread that triggered me into contributing actively to tithe threads again --- I had refrained for some time! I also note that two of the main discussants are not ordinarily given to fighting - even though every one can fall into the trap now and then.

3. Now the case of the pastor is not a case of just spitting on anyone who speaks tithe. In fact, the focus of the main contributors has been very heavily on assessing the very words of the pastor rather than his person. Even I pointed out that I wanted you to comment on what he wrote.

4. What is more, the pastor's message was brought as proof of the argument that what we seek to challenge is primarily the modern teaching of tithes and not individual choice. The message of the pastor is one of the clearest examples of what is wrong with modern tithe teaching and why the teaching must be challenged.

5. I think you would have helped matters considerably if you had indicated your stance on the pastor's message very early on. TBH, the way you reacted after the pastor's message was posted suggested that you agree with him in reality (even if differences in your positions can be detected).

6. Things you seem to be suggesting/supporting include: (a) the pastor's own understanding of tithing which is known to be compulsory payment of 10% on all incomes and earnings; (b) his Church's position that tithes are for ministers; (c) tithes are not for needy brethren; (d) tithes are money/financial, (e) his claim and understanding that God will send a devourer to non-tithers etc. You needed to make your own position on these matters clear early on or to make entirely clear that you were not defending the pastor's message or position. As I said before, the attacks were on the pastor's message; the problem was that it appeared you were making the pastor's position and yours to be similar if not same.

7. I'm sure things will soon normalise between the main discussants but one last point to make is that in addition to content of a message, knowledge that one has about the author of the message can also be a legitimate consideration.

joe4christ: Then maybe you should be providing me some links. Abi

Make "maximum use of your Google"!

joe4christ: Bros, biblical scholars are of the opinion that from the period of creation in Genesis to this present day, the earth is just about 6000+ old, maybe you should do some research yourself by making maximum use of your google.
Thanks anyways!

1. Does the Bible say the earth is 6000-7000 years old?

2. Do all Bible scholars say that the earth is 6000+ years old?

3. What percentage of Bible scholars say it is 6000+ old?


By the way, how do you know I have not done my "research"?

Bros, the most important thing to bear in mind is that the Bible does not give the age of the earth or say that it is 7000 years old.

Ihedinobi: Big bro, I have already explained it and many times too. It's the same thing you have said, the same thing debosky has said and everyone else insists on: provide out of what you have a benefit for those who minister to you spiritually and the poor among our brethren. If anyone will put a percentage on what they will provide, it is their prerogative.

Fair enough, although in my view if we are drawing principles from the OT there are two more categories to be added to the bolded i.e. other poor people generally (even if they are not brethren) and oneself as the tither with family etc to make merriment and rejoice in the Lord. To ignore the latter two would in my view be picking and choosing from the purposes that God Himself said that the Old Testament tithe should be used for.

OK that said; it seems the discussion on the thread has got clouded because two things got mixed.

The first section of the thread where you outlined your view and even others coming from the other side (e.g. me) expressed theirs was quite harmonious and with friendliness. Even people who normally challenge the modern tithe teaching applauded your outline of your position.

The second part of the thread is that which follows the introduction of the pastor's devotional message. It was in the aftermath of that introduction that tones started getting less friendly on the thread. Although that is the aftermath of the introduction of the pastor's message I am glad I introduced it and for the discussion that followed it because it is necessary and important that we tell each other truths and seek in honesty to exhibit and if at all possible harmonise differences in situations like this.

Bros, I have to say that you carry a considerable part of the can for the reasons for the slight degeneration of the tone of the discussion. Let me explain: your position per se had not come under criticism. When criticisms were levied, they were directed at the pastor's message; your responses suggested you wanted to defend the pastor's position; the responses to you were not attacks on you but on the pastor's position. So, if you are defending the pastor's position, you would have to justify the things he wrote; if you want to say people should show some temperance in criticising the message, that is another thing.

Look, I personally have tried to exercise restraint in respect of the pastor's position; my real view of that message is one of extreme contempt and of the person who put it out of the same level as I would regard a thief!

So we have to make the distinction: appreciation of your expressed position and criticism of the message of the pastor.