₦airaland Forum

idnoble135: my answer is clear and honest. If you think it is dishonest, may i ask a question from the word?

Ask!

idnoble135: 1. He spoke to him as regarding the law because the issue was basically how to get eternal life. And the young man could not get it through Jesus because He had not yet died on the cross.
2. No. Tithe is beyond a matter of the law. And so, assuming that position would be wrong.

You see why I didn't take your answer seriously the first time.

All you are saying is that 2+2 = 4 but looking for reasons why 1+3 should not also be 4!

Take your time to think about the matter --- honestly.

idnoble135: @Enigma, i'm on mobile. Thats why i'm trying to keep it simple. You know how difficult it can be typing on a device.

No problem, anytime!

idnoble135: Was all the words of Jesus to people under the law?

No!

However,

1. was He speaking according to the law, when He spoke to the youth in Mark 10?

2. was He not speaking according to the law, when he spoke to the Pharisees in Matthew 23?

EDIT I mistakenly edited this post, while trying to make another. However, the substance of the original post was this question:


Jesus spoke to the Youth ---- according to the law; was He not also speaking to the Pharisees in Matthew 23:23 according to the law when He said they ought to have tithed mint, cummin etc?

idnoble135: Post the scriptures.

Matthew 23:23
Jesus said: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Mark 10:21
Jesus said: “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

I hope these versions/translations are satisfactory.

idnoble135: Okk... Here for you.

Bros, I'm afraid that still does not address this specific question: why should we follow the statement on "tithes" but not the one on eternal life?

idnoble135: Saying i dont discuss salvation is a wrong assumption. This is my first time of talking about tithe. My posts on threads also bear evangelistic tone. Maybe you could do research well before wrongly insinuating me.

I have not said or even suggested what you are claiming here!

Read my post again: my question is why should we follow the statement on "tithes" but not the one on eternal life?

idnoble135: lol... I know where you are headed. Tithes will not take anyone to hell. Rejecting Christ is what will. We are saved by Christ not tithes.

In that case, you have not really given us any genuine reason why we should follow the statement on tithes in Matthew 23:23 but not the statement on eternal life in Mark 10:21 (etc).

It would seem obvious, even as you now suggest indirectly, that any statement on eternal life is more important and demanding/deserving of our attention than one on tithes!

idnoble135: @Enigma, LOL.
I've got questions too. At least i responded to yours and you termed it 'excuses'.

Ok, fire and I'll do the best I can.

My brother IDNoble abikereleti, sorry to be rude but I will let out what first came to my mind when I read your last post:

Excuses, excuses!

If Matthew 23:23 applies to Christians, what about Mark 10:21 which is even about what to do to gain eternal life!

Jesus said: “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

So, how many of our Matthew 23:23 people are selling all they have, giving to the poor, then following Jesus --- so that they may have eternal life?

Or tithes in Matthew 23 is more important than eternal life in Mark 21?

I think we should put that Adeboye's cursing "message" on Ihedinobi's thread.

I'll get on the case!

Obviously your "Church" does not teach you manners! On top of that you also have no home training!

It is a poor reflection on your parents and on your "Church" and its "Priests/Fathers" and disgraceful "popes"; in fact some of your church's "popes" have been the most vile, disgusting and disgraceful human beings to ever pretend to be Christians.

From https://www.nairaland.com/1032312/scandal-church

Extracts from an interesting sermon

http://www.fairviewpc.org/sermons/100711FPC_Sermonclub.pdf

catholic

The meaning of the word "catholic" in the Apostle's Creed may be the single most commonly asked question I receive as a pastor. Young people in Confirmation Classes are especially curious about it. “Why do we say that we believe in the Roman Catholic Church when we are Protestants?” they ask. The confusion arises because the word "catholic" is not in common usage in English today.
Most people hear it used only in reference to the Roman Catholic Church. And so, when they read or hear the word "catholic" in another context, they assume it refers to the Church of Rome. But this is mistaken. "Catholic," in this context, means "universal" and is not a reference to the Church of Rome.....


We are confessing that we believe in the universal church. What, exactly, is the universal church? The universal church is the company of God‟s elect. One of the Greek words used for the church is ekklesia. Ekklesia comes from the Greek meaning "to call." The church are those who have heard God's call. They are God's people who have been called out from the world. They are the ones who have heard God's voice.

The ekklesia then means the totality of God's people. They include the living and the dead, believers‟ world wide, from every tongue and nation, the entire company of God's elect. It even includes those who may disagree with us and so are in differing theological or ecclesiastical camps. This last is an important point....


It is the universality of the faith that provides one of the foundational motivations for the Christian missionary mandate. We send missionaries to proclaim the gospel, make disciples and encourage converts because our faith is catholic. It is universal.[

In addition to the now constant shouts of "empty your wallets to the Lord", I should aso point out that some men and women of God are actually so 'kind' and 'forward thinking' to have taken things to a new level with their higher level message:

"Empty your bank and credit card accounts ---- for the 'pastor'"!

OLAADEGBU: The Naija man's wallet in particular doesn't easily give way to the Lord, their money is their life and soul of their being as we can see on this board.

Well what do you expect when what the Naija man hears most constantly nowadays is: "Empty your wallets to the Lord."

In the past we used to criticise an even slightly better message: "Empty your hearts to the Lord --- and your pockets too!"

OLAADEGBU: Abram worshiped God with his tithes as he gave it to the priest of the Most High God, so do I. It is either you give God your tithes or He takes it from you. It's your choice.

You have overstepped the mark here and I hope that deep down you realise it yourself!

Also noteworthy:

Christians may be divided, especially on matters of "doctrine"; often even some of the things that some people consider "essential" may actually be inconsequential in the overall scheme of things and in the final analysis.

However, irrespective of the fact that Christians may be divided, irrespective of the fact that they may attend or be part of different assemblies aka ekklesia aka churches (and not what some pompous and even diabolical Church breakers call 'ecclesial communities'), the Christian fold is still one; the Christian Church is one and always will be one. Hallelujah.

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

John 11
51 ... he {i.e. Caiaphas} prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Christians have the words of Jesus and of the apostles to (a) reassure them and (b) to guide them.

Mercifully the reassurance and guidance of Jesus and the apostles to us Christians let us know that we Christians do not need "popes" (some of whom even their sheep i.e. even Roman Catholics described as antiChrists).

For now just a couple of examples of the assurance and guidance that Christians have from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and from the apostles.

1. Jesus is the Good Shepherd of Christians; He knows them and they know Him!
John 10
14“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me

2. Christians as Jesus' sheep listen to His voice, He knows them, they follow Him and He gives them eternal life.
John 10
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

3. Jesus has given the Holy Spirit to Christians to lead them to all truth.
John 16
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

4. Because Christians have the Holy Spirit they do not need a "pope" or such like to teach them.
1 John 2
27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.


Summary
Christians have enough assurances from Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit and with the teachings of the apostles as recorded in the Christian Bible. Christians do not need any "pope". I might return later to quotes from their sheep i.e. Roman Catholics including Bishops about some of these "popes".

In the meantime I finish this post with an ordinarily prominent "sheep" of a pope; a quote from no less than a "cardinal" who in fact, historians tell us, could have himself become a "pope" and was actually considered for becoming a "pope"!

"The chief lesson of these times is that the Church can get along very well without popes. What is vital to the Church's survival is not the pope but Jesus Christ. He is the head of the Church, not the pope." ("Cardinal" Baronius --- as quoted)

Jesus' Church can be found wherever two or three are gathered in His name. They don't need some "pope" or other such.

As far as the essentials are concerned, they have all they need in their Christian Bible. And even if they stumble or make mistakes, the One who has called them will uphold them. Hallelujah!

Image123: i think Matthew 23 needs some clarification or discussion. Perhas, the whole chapter, to put thins in perspective and context. Can anyone do that for us on a new thread?

This post gives me an opportunity to do small amebo about some posts on an old thread!

For a start there was a post noting the distinctions in terms of the persons that Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 23.

More to the amebo point, my old mucker (note not mocker) Joagbaje agreed on that thread that Matthew 23:23 was not directed to Christians. Oga Jo, I do not bring this up maliciously at all oh - just that it is relevant here in light of Image123's post. Funny, as it happens, even Image123 was deep involved in that discussion. Even Zikky! (We don sabi awasefs tay tay!)

Selection of quotes though it is much better to read the whole page in the link. https://www.nairaland.com/497709/best-position-bless-parents-pastor/3#6630062

Enigma: ^^^ The point I am making is that while

(a) in Matthew 23:9 Jesus did tell his disciples/followers not to call any person father (including scribes, Pharisees, "church leaders/pastors" etc);

(b) in Matthew 23:23 on the other and, Jesus did NOT tell his disciples/followers per se to pay tithes!


In Matthew 23:9 Jesus was instructing his followers whereas in Matthew 23:23 Jesus was upbraiding the scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites.

Joagbaje:

Joagbaje:
Well from my own understanding he said they ought to pay tithes.

Matthew 23:23
23"Yes, woe upon you, Pharisees, and you other religious leaders-- hypocrites! For you tithe down to the last mint leaf in your garden, but ignore the important things-- justice and mercy and faith. Yes, you should tithe, but you shouldn't leave the more important things undone.

Enigma: Please explain who you mean by "they" in the above, thanx.

He was talking to the Pharisees .

Joagbaje: Ofcourse Jesus wasn't talking to The church but at least he didn't condemn tithe but rather encouraged it. But that's not my favourites scripture anyway. Maybe you're refering to ttonye.
Tithing was primary source of welfare for priests in the OT. The preaching of the gospel of christ has replaced the levitical priesthood.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live[ of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

EDIT The specific post that focused on a discussion of the structure and addressees of Mathew 23 is at this link: https://www.nairaland.com/497709/best-position-bless-parents-pastor/3#6627962

FortresOfChrist: The LORD our fortress bless @ all. I decided to read this thread from page one till now after reading the teaching of a brother here christemmbassey during the grace convention. I began to seek the LORD fortress for more understanding and praying the holy spirit help me.

I found understanding in truth for this tithe subject from the grace convention. This thread and my own personal study confirms the truth that Christians are not commanded to tithe plus God tithe is not money.

The LORD fortress bless everyone especially christembassey, ziky, pastor kun, candour, enigma, drummerboy, goshen, ayoku, jil and everyone who fought for my personal freedom. Sometimes, am hungry without food and my family but we can't miss tithe because we afraid of the devourer and curses. Sometimes, am in heavy debt but can't miss tithe because I was taught tithe opens windows of heaven and release blessings on me. Today, Lord fortress has set me and my family free by great teachers here. Continue the fight for truth and Lord fortress rewards you all.

My sister

The God who supplies all our needs will bless you and your family abundantly, Amen.

Alwaystrue: .....I am not disappointed.

To be honest, I did not expect any better or even different from you.

Joagbaje: Buroda , it's not fair o. You didn't quote the person insult to Me o. It's only my response you quote .

Oga Jo, o da ma binu but you too stop saying people are stealing, ko da rara!

OLAADEGBU: The question is: what would make us one?

Let me answer it in the same way but slightly differently.

We have to agree that:

Roman Catholic Church

“We declare, state, define and pronounce that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff. (‘Pope’ Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam; statement made ex cathedra, thus ‘infallibly’!)


Except that as Christians we have to choose what Jesus Christ said instead.

Jesus Christ

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

OLAADEGBU: The question is: what would make us one?

We have to accept the "authority" and "infallibility" of the Roman Catholic "pope"!

@ ARareGem

When you get a chance, please go through this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/1229310/infallibility-christian-church-simple-approach

ashieduplus: @ Enigma, Candour and co.
I rily thank God I found this thread. Only now does the gospel of Jesus Christ make. sense to me. I believe that Jesus has paid everything and we cannot add any of our works to His sacrifice... Dats all..

My brother God bless you and continue to help all of us (pro tithing brethren/sistren too) into truth.

Moving away from the negativity towards positivity especially the realisation that Jesus paid it all, please have a look at the discussions on this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/1416947/welcome-e-grace-convention-2013

Naturally, we haven't got everything right in those discussions but overall I think they are quite helpful.

When an Anglican invites a person to church, the Roman Catholics will say: "Ah! the Anglicans are not even a "Church"; their worship place is only a shop. They don't have sacraments; their holy communion is not even holy communion; their priests and bishops are not real priests and bishops; their baptism is no baptism; they are even anathema because they don't accept the "authority" and "infallibility" of our 'pope'".

Zikkyy: tank you jare. e be like debosky collected 'tithe' from image before making the announcement

My brother, one of the things I dislike about Nairaland "debates" is obfuscation.

I agree that we should try as much as possible to be civil. But when the people calling for the civility, and this time specifically including Joagbaje, are accusing others of "stealing", I consider it obfuscation to be accusing the so-called "anti-tithers" of being uncivil?

Even the term "anti-tither", how civil is that one?

To me, I accept the call for civility but in the present context I'm afraid I see it as only obfuscation.

And for the umpteenth time, the argument is never that people are not free to choose to tithe; people are free to tithe into 'church' if that is their wish. However, as Christians too we have a say in what people are claiming to be Christian doctrine or teaching.

The challenge has always been about the teaching and NOT about individual choice.