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2 Corinthians 3

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Isaiah 6

5“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

6Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

8Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”

And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

9He said, “Go and tell this people:

“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;

be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;

make their ears dull

and close their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts,

and turn and be healed.”

John 12 (referring to Isaiah 6 above )

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes

and deadened their hearts,

so they can neither see with their eyes,

nor understand with their hearts,

nor turn—and I would heal them.”

41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

plappville: Je vais au lit, Je te répondrai demain
Bonne nuit!

Ah, d'accord; bonne nuite.

Did you not see this verse in the Hosea passage?

5 the Lord God Almighty,

the Lord is his name of renown!

Meanwhile you are the one who have been twisting and "interpreting" so far! All I have done is set out the passages.

@plappville

By the way do you have an explanation for this one aussi?

Isaiah 6

5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

And according to John

John 12:41

Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

plappville: This may be discussed in another thread, i saw that Frosbel created a thread on it, i have not view it yet.
I hope to soon.

OK, we can ignore that issue. You could then just deal with the point about Hosea in my post above.

^^^ First of all Jacob said he saw God.

Second, I pointed out earlier, how Hosea described the same Jacob incident. So, could you also please explain the Hosea passage below.

Finally, do you agree with your colleague that Jesus did not exist before He was conceived by Mary?

Hosea 12

2 The Lord has a charge to bring against Judah;

he will punish Jacob according to his ways

and repay him according to his deeds.

3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel;

as a man he struggled with God.

4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him;

he wept and begged for his favor.

He found him at Bethel

and talked with him there—

5 the Lord God Almighty,

the Lord is his name of renown!

Well, FWIW, here is one i made earlier.

1. No one has seen God; no one can see God and live!

Exodus 33:20

But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

John 1:18

No one has ever seen God . . .

1 Timothy 6:16

who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.

2. Who then did Isaiah (and others like Daniel etc) see?

Isaiah 6:5

"Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."

3. Thankfully we have help!

John 12:41

Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

4. Further help!

Colossians 1:15

He is the image of the invisible God

Colossians 1:19

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him

Hebrews 1:3

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

5. And finally

John 14:9

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Image123: cool
they will not see it, why.

Bookagrammatic people will call it "wilful ignorance".

Funny the Bible has various descriptions for it too . . . . . .

plappville: Don't you think this is contradiction? Isn't it strange to think one can "wrestle" with God bro image123?. . . .

Are you saying that the Bible contradicts itself ---- because the Bible says that Isaiah etc etc etc saw God.

By the way, if you have been following the posts of those of us "Trinitarians" you should have noticed that we have used the Bible to explain this. Here below is one example.

Isaiah saw God!

Isaiah 6

1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3And they were calling to one another:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty;

the whole earth is full of his glory.”

4At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.

5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

And of course that Isaiah saw God is explained here

John 12:41

Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

Question: so who was the God that Isaiah saw?

Another thing, do you now still believe your colleague who says Jesus did NOT exist until He was conceived and born by Mary?

plappville: But He wasn't rude to you, He only call out some errors in your post, take am easy, everyone is free here

^^^ He knows he was rude and that is why he apologised. He knows that he would not say "you need help" to the people I referred to.

A propos the Hosea 12 quoted earlier.

Genesis 32

24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”

“Jacob,” he answered.

28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”

29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

Isaiah 44:6

“This is what the Lord says—

Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:

I am the first and I am the last;

apart from me there is no God.

Revelation 2:8

"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Revelation 1:17

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

An update to an earlier post.

1 Corinthians 10

1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Isaiah 44:8

Do not tremble, do not be afraid.

Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?

You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?

No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

ijawkid: You really need help...

So the almighty God now na angel??

SMH!!!!....

Soon you will say the almighty God is satan....

That's where you are heading to....lol....

Be careful. I have warned you that I will send you to people in your family much older than you.

To avoid that necessity, I have kept away from your posts; when your cup becomes full, I will not hesitate to send you to people old enough to give birth to you.

^^^ And God even referred to as an angel --- wrestling with a man!

Hosea 12

2 The Lord has a charge to bring against Judah;

he will punish Jacob according to his ways

and repay him according to his deeds.

3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel;

as a man he struggled with God.

4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him;

he wept and begged for his favor.

He found him at Bethel

and talked with him there—

5 the Lord God Almighty,

the Lord is his name of renown!

Revelation 19

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Well, still a propos who is Jesus . . .

Revelation 19

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

John 1

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

^^^ He don run away from questions on about four different threads now. Shey because we jus do like say we no see!

^^ Incidentally, that post is a test of the courage and honesty of some of his supporters.

At least some of the Jehovah Witnesses supporting him have disagreed with him on this point.

However, let us see if his other supporters who profess Christianity (unlike the JWs) will agree with him or be honest and courageous enough to disagree openly.

Oh well, Why not?

1 John 5:20

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Ubenedictus: and it also says christ has no begining and end. I have noting to prove. U are d person wu shuld b telling me y u tink christ has a bging wen my bible says he doesnt.

Christ Himself IS eternal life; he existed eternally with the Father.

To know when Jesus Christ "began" to exist is to know when God The father "began" to exist.

Oh, and it is also to know when The Holy Spirit "began" to exist.


1 John 1:2

The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

lagerwhenindoubt: Ok? he said so categorically? i mean why would he be coy about such a critical spot of revelation? just asking

Yes, He did!

Among others, Revelation 1

Verse 8

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Verses 17-20

17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; [size=14pt]and I was dead[/size], and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. 19“Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things. 20“As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

1 John 5:20

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

John 1:18

NIV

No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

ESV

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

NASB

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

KJV (funny enough the KJV which is oft reviled here is the one that uses "Son" for 'God')

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

2 Corinthians 4:4

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Actually, if the scriptures quoted in the opening post are read carefully, they are in fact supporting the Trinity in the final analysis!

Take one example:

Luke 7:16 They were all filled with awe and praised God. "A great prophet has appeared among us," they said. "God has come to help his people."

Well, it corroborates the prophecy about Jesus and the name Emmanuel: God with us!

Ihedinobi: @Enigma, you have mail, bro.

Bros, I don reply jus now.

Matthew 26

63 But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64 “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. . . .

John 19

6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”

But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”

7 The Jews insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

Philippians 2

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

7 but made himself nothing,

taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

8 And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself

and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross!

Therefore, with Thomas, Christians worship Him Lord Jesus and say as in John 20:28

“My Lord and my God!”

John 5

16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17 Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10

22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Hebrews 1:3

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being . . .