₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
All humans were atheists before 80k years ago.

I see why the mix up. Fingers slower than my thoughts. Abraham and other prophets are considered Muslims. You easily would have discerned that.

LordReed:
"Considered Muslim" is the claim but you have no evidence backing that up so your assertion is rejected. You laid that standard so accept your forfeit.

Did they or didn't they submit to God?

LordReed:
LoLz. Look at the bolded and consider how you are contradicting yourself. History has not left us much to go on other than that humans only started being religious circa 80k years by reason of the burial practices we have evidence for, therefore humans were atheists before then. If you cannot see your own contradictory standard then something is wrong.

That is from my statement. You were pointing at evidence you had earlier given?
Abraham are considered Muslims. Even though there are few tangible remnants, archaeology demonstrates the existence of belief in Abraham's and other prophetic communities' theistic practices.

Ur of the Chaldeans where Abraham was born show signs of worship and Cuneiform tablets provide texts for concepts of religious belief. My general statement was more for other prophets without much recognised archaeological artefacts.

LordReed:
This has no bearing on the argument.

Sorry! Wasn't for you.

jmoore:
Trump goes to UK for treatment too?

Abi, you don't why Tinubu is always flying to France? He should use same technology from Asorock to communicate with whoever he's meeting in France.

Wait, we should accept some remote governance from Paris but he can't do remote consultations and physical treatment with French doctors? 😅 Make it make sense! If bandwidth is good enough to run Nigeria via video call, it's good enough for medical appointments. The math ain't mathing.

The world with emphasis on the world powers appear to be cooking at something regardless of how prepared Nigeria, Africa and other 3rd world countries are.

LordReed:
LoLz. Yes let's just hand wave away the evidence but produce none for our position then ask for evidence again. Dude I gave the evidence for my position, you gave NONE, by your own standard you forfeit the argument.

Wait, we should accept some remote governance from Paris but he can't do remote consultations and physical treatment with French doctors? 😅 Make it make sense! If bandwidth is good enough to run Nigeria via video call, it's good enough for medical appointments. The math ain't mathing.

LordReed:
LoLz. Yes let's just hand wave away the evidence but produce none for our position then ask for evidence again. Dude I gave the evidence for my position, you gave NONE, by your own standard you forfeit the argument.

With your starting inclination to humor I wonder. However, the lack of artifacts doesn’t mean someone is ungodly; rather, it’s the act of submitting to God that truly defines a Muslim. Take prophets like Abraham, for instance, they were Muslim, even if history hasn’t left us much to go on.

If you will quote a pointer to your evidence please.

jmoore:
Which UAE? We all know he spent most of his time in France. That UAE trip was meant to deceive Nigerians.

What is Tinubu doing in france? Was his plancenta buried their?
He will visit France again at least four times before the year ends.

Absentee President.

Not particularly a fan of anyone or government generally but mostly doesn't equate totally.

The world has embraced technology to enable communication and control for most activities plus will his presence in Nigeria have directly enabled or prevented anything?

LordReed:
Yes based on your own standard. You produced no evidence of any kind so I reject your assertion.

Despite clearly showing why the sort of archaeological evidence you request doesn't exist? Maybe we should switch for a moment and you show the same for your view.

LordReed:
Then I reject your categorising of any pre Mohammedean believers as Muslim. It's that simple.

Logically?

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a hanif, a Muslim (submitting to Allah), and he was not of the polytheists.(Qur’an 3:67)

LordReed:
It is a resounding evidence of lack of belief in any gods as religion tends to leave behind evidence of practice which is why we have the burial sites. If they were believing in gods before that then we should have had evidence. You dismissal is inadequate especially as you provide nothing substantial to refute it except nah-uh.

Meanwhile I am yet to see you provide evidence that any believers in your god were Muslims before the advent of your prophet Mohammad. Can you show any text that calls them Muslims written before 571 CE?

Despite the lack of pre-571 texts, early monotheists, such as Idris/Enoch, are counted as Muslims because submission to God is what defines a Muslim, and the 170,000-year archaeological gap does not prove ungodliness.

Consider too that perishable materials (wood, paint, dance, song) were used in rituals. Few traces were left by tiny populations. Most sites and organic materials are lost after more than 100,000 years; only stone and bone in extraordinary circumstances survive.

LordReed:
I already did, are you paying attention?

Lack of belief in any gods.

The 170,000-year archaeological gap merely indicates a lack of material religion, not a lack of faith in God, which need not leave physical remnants. It is by no means conclusive proof of ungodliness.

LordReed:
Well then, till when you able to produce definitive evidence that that was the case then the point stands.



Wrong again. I have given you the definition of atheism, LACK OF BELIEF, it doesn't require any concept of god to reject since it is not a rejection. Also remember we are playing word games so you can't seriously challenge this or else we also fault your definition of Muslim.

Can you provide any definitive evidence for your own claims? Then you say lack of belief is your definition but cannot say what isn't believed in. So you are not making a clear statement.

LordReed:
Homo sapiens have been around for more than 250,000 years while the earliest evidence of ritualistic or proto-religion is about 80,000 years. This suggests humans didn't have religious beliefs for more time they've been around than the time they did have it.

While that might hold true from an archaeological standpoint, it really only reflects evidence, not actual belief. Just because we don’t have any surviving rituals doesn’t mean that early humans didn’t have a sense of God or some form of spiritual awareness.

LordReed:
Nope. Atheism is lack of beliefs and as I have shown lack of belief was around for far longer than any belief in any gods.

Atheism, by its very nature, needs the idea of God to be able to reject it. So, just because early humans didn’t leave behind evidence of belief doesn’t automatically make them atheists, they simply might not have had a documented concept of God at that time.

LordReed:
My statement has nothing to do with evolution.

The term Muslim refers to anyone who submits to God, even those who lived before Muhammad pbuh. While being an atheist is rooted in denial and doesn't allow for a retroactive application of beliefs. So, these two concepts aren't really equivalent.

LordReed:
My statement has nothing to do with evolution.

I am starting with the root of atheism with regards to the origin of man. Maybe you could clarify how atheism predates all religion which is a practice of mankind.

Kayberg:
That a child is named Mercy does not mean the child is merciful… so that doesn't work.

Do break down your analogy

LordReed:
Ahhh, then we can say that atheism predates all religion once we rejig the meaning of what an atheist is. Playing word definition games can bite both ways.

We will need to come to an agreement about the ambiguity of evidence supporting evolution, and the belief that life cannot arise from non-life before agreeing that early mankind had no concept of the existence of God.

Kayberg:
You don't need to open a defense on this with me.

The Israelites never knew anything called Islam during their days; if they do, they won't have found it strange when it was introduced to them back then.

No defense or debate as it only takes knowing what Islam means.

BlackfireX:
Chspgpt makes mistake when it is against Islamic lies.


Abdul
Salat means prayer
And no it dosent mean blessings....blessings means barakat.

And keep your delusional confusion to yourself

Even you that isn't chatgpt is making mistake. What is chspgpt?

I presented screenshot and web links to a dictionary can you dignify your false Arabic expertise there?

Kayberg:
The OP was clear enough to make it known that Aisha was born before Islam began around 610 CE, also providing evidence.

I see your restrictions however in the absolute sense Islam did not begin in 610 CE. What began then was the final revelation to Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Kayberg:
How then was Moses and the other Israeli prophets Muslims? 😏

Perhaps the op omitted saying Islam as completed under prophet Muhammad pbuh.
However specific to your question is understanding the meaning of being Muslim.

TV01:
And hopefully my response to him satisfies this as well.

Plus, I sense you both use the same tools or, are the same entity, 2in1 .


TV

Good to share similar thoughts in faith with my brother. This is unity.

TV01:
No strawman required - I am appraising islam based on it's outworking - it's fruits.

This is not a discussion about relative darkness. I am happy to defend Christianity if required. The question is "is islam a religion of peace?" No. Neither is it a religion of prosperity or progress, which I have severally demonstrrated.

There are Christians who commit atrocities under cover of the faith. However, the faith itself does not prescribe violence or killing for unbelievers or apostates. A person killing and claiming Christianity is falsified by the text. Whereas for islam, atrocities are permitted, sanctioned, commanded and celebrated.

No one, nowhere, at any time has demanded a single language for Christian worship, under guise that it is demanded by God.

Islam is not expected to name prophets for every tribe, islam claims to have done so! To have sent prophets to every language group. A s many as124,000 according to some islamic sources - without evidence as usual.

Agreed. Ask away.


TV

Pointing to Islam as violent based on its “fruits” falls apart when you consider the same standard you don’t consistently apply. The core texts of Islam clearly prohibit coercion in matters of faith and the killing of innocents, while classical law places strict limits on warfare to specific situations. Atrocities carried out in its name go against these principles, just as the wrongdoings committed in Christianity contradict Christ’s teachings. When people say Islam celebrates violence or insists on a single language, they’re mixing up ritual unity with coercion Arabic is meant for worship, not ethnicity, much like how Hebrew and Latin were used in other faiths. Regarding prophets, Islam’s belief in many messengers is more about theology than historical records, similar to how Christianity holds truths that go beyond what’s documented and just because there’s no clear evidence doesn’t mean something is false.

I see honesttalk21 has exhaustively replied you.

Hello,

TV01:
Collecting, collating or aggregating is not the same as advancing or inventing. Plus, I have already credited islam with that much.

During a period of expansive conquest, before islam fully embedded, it made sense to take stock, keep inventory and let seemingly beneficial works continue. But firstly, little or none of that work would have been by native muslims (more likely busy with sword fights ). Secondly, as things settle and islam works its way through every aspect of society, such endeavours will cease - by design.

It's the regressive nature of islam. It can't help itself. Policing every aspect of womens lives is ore important than scientific advance. Quibbling over the age of consent, acquiring wives and sex slaves. Ablutions & ensuring the correct foot is used to entry lavatories, takes priority over technological advance. Ensuring all worship is for their god and done their way is lifes prime directive. Advance ke? Said life has to be lived based on rigid, unyielding immutable 7th century dictates. (which we all know were conveniently revealed by mohammeds alter-ego )

This is completely wrong. Firstly, Europe's advance was not due to or as a result of any knowledge or advances from islam by native muslims. Secondly, the knowledge and learning would have been passed on in other ways. The fact islam collated knowledge, does not mean they were the only possible conduit, or there were not other channels. And thirdly, things can be re-discovered, re-created or re-invented., As would have happened under an ethos that engendered systematic research and discovery (i.e. Christianity).

No. That's the best proof - the outworking. Christianity has eliminated pretty much all social pathologies. This is evident even in post-Christian nations. Sexual exploitation, slavery, child labour, inheritance, rights, freedoms and liberties. Social welfare. Islam cannot even solve for cousin marriage , something the most primitive tribes have dealt with.

islam not only fails to deal with social pathologies, it embeds them. It ensures they are entrenched. Slavery, abuse of women, sexual exploitation, discriminatory taxes, oppression of minorities, medieval and brutal punishments and cousin marriage ewww!

No one said it did, that is islams own claim. And with most of islams claims, assertions, half-truths and outright lies, it cannot be proven, no recorded history. What were the names of the prophets sent to the tribes of Nigeria? As mohammed was sent to the arabic speaking people?

Eighty percent of muslims cannot read, understand or speak arabic. Why is the islamic god so parochial. What is wrong in worshipping the creator in Efik? Afterall, He created the tongue. There has never been a writ for Christianity to be mediated through onelanguage or ritualised based on a single culture. Muslims in 21st century Britain dress like 7th century arabs. Please.

Conquest by sword and rule by power, but a failure to maintain, or build proves there is nothing at islams heart. Everywhere it has the rule, islam lags on all key metrics and ultimately fails,

Evidenced by outworking - which s visible to all.


TV

If we’re going to judge Islam based on its later political decline, then we have to hold Christianity to the same standard. After all, over a thousand years of European theocracy led to inquisitions, witch hunts, slavery, religious wars, and a stifling of scientific progress, all until the enlightenment finally put a check on Christianity’s power. If decline is a disqualifier for Islam, then it’s Christianity that takes the first hit.

When it comes to conquest, Christianity has a much darker record in forced conversions, the extermination of pagans in Europe, the Crusades, the obliteration of indigenous religions around the globe, and church-supported colonialism. These weren’t just isolated incidents they were widely accepted practices, all done in the name of Christ.

If we’re blaming Islam for modern extremists, then Christianity has to reckon with the KKK, the Lord’s Resistance Army, residential schools, apartheid theology, and centuries of racialized slavery that were justified right from the Bible. Picking and choosing moral standards isn’t ethics; it’s just propaganda.

If Arabic liturgy is seen as parochial, then Christianity’s long history of mandatory Latin worship is a clear condemnation. If Islam is expected to name prophets for every tribe, then Christianity needs to explain why Jesus never set foot in Africa, Asia, or the Americas yet still claimed to have universal authority.

We either apply the same standards to Christianity or acknowledge that this critique isn’t about historical analysis, it’s about showing favoritism in theology.

BlackfireX:
Death by the poisoning of a Jewish woman


Solat changes meaning kilode all in trying to defend lies


Solat means prayer supplication

Using chatgpt to reply

Anyway I told you not to quote me

Chatgpt that can make mistakes is now your fortress? Is chatgpt your dictionary or where you gained your expertise of arabic language? Please try not to be silly.

Ask in that your line of chatgpt if solat meaning can change based on context where it's used.

BlackfireX:
solat that means praayer is mow bkessings( baaraakat)

Explore2xmore:
https://www.arabdict.com/en/en-ar/details?la=ar&ids=464235&term=blessing


https://www.arabdict.com/en/english-arabic/%D8%B5%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%A9

You see from the arabic dictionary evidence that salat has a range of meanings including blessing, mercy, supplication, and prayer so in Qur’an 33:56 its meaning shifts by context. Allah’s salat denotes mercy and blessing, the angels’ salat denotes supplication, and the believers’ salat denotes invoking prescribed benedictions, all unified by honoring the Prophet pbuh appropriately.

The Prophet pbuh’s death does not negate this command, since Islamic theology holds that he remains alive in the Barzakh and receives salutations. Sending salat is therefore an act of obedience to God that benefits the believer spiritually, not a claim of physical interaction with the Prophet.

TV01:
Thank you sir ! Per the former, I couldn't have said it better myself. And, for the latter, I await your response - 1 concrete thing that islam has delivered that has advanced mankind technologically or improved society in a way no other faith or ideology has.

Not at all. All medicines are judged by their Efficacy over time - it is a data-driven metric. A full sequence of data-points over 1400 years clearly demonstrate that islam not only fails to bring progress, it actively regresses.

This is not embellishment. It's not airbrushing. It's not aggrandisement. It is not hyperbole. It is sheer fantasy. What you wrote up there is that islam laid the foundation for all the scientific and technological advances seen n the world today. Like really And then headed on back to the 7th century and let the rest of the (non-muslim) world take the glory and reap the benefits. Whilst even now, the islamic world struggles to deliver real progress based on what islam itself gave humankind? Come on!

You don't even hesitate to claim for islam all the advances that were present before islam made it's way out of the cave at hira?

No. Sorry, not sorry. islam is incapable of delivering anything other than 7th century Saudi Arabia or 21st century Afghanistan.

The koran is base, leading men to full-on gorge on their foulest inclinations, sexual depravity, bloodlust and plunder. So profound the near 100% muslim nations such as Somalia remain an enduring mess?


1. No. Jesus was sent to the whole world. As evidenced by the great commission given to his apostles.
2. mohammed did not have a greater revelation of YAHWEH\YHWH\YHVH. mohammed had no personal or additional revelation at all. Just claim to a god he called "allah".
3. Every language? . Only arabic, the language of mohammed. Which is mandated for all islamic rituals, which 80% of muslims can't understand or read. The koran itself says messengers were sent to people in their own language. Who was the messenger to the Igbo? The Yoruba?? The Ijaw

islamic continued recourse to waraqah highlights it's desperation. He was a random nobody.

Nope. Islam is the marriage of state and religion. Not just moral, ehtical or legal. Whole of life - but it only delivers death.

Half-truths, claims and assertions
1. Spain was doing fine before islam and continued to prosper after it was rightfully expunged. Why do muslims still insist on calling it Andalusia? It's not theirs. islam breeds land-grabbers & colonisers.
2. How did he "enter" Jerusalem. Selling gala .
4. Then immediately following claiming islam spread to China and Southeast asia by trade How many Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhist and Jainist did islam slaughter - 10's of millions !

Is islam not the perfect deen and mohammed not the perfect role model? Where is the islamic god in all this? No name, no revelation, no power, no miracles, no evidence.

islam forces you to stay and forces you to convert wherever it is able - at best dhimmitude awaits.

I have. And, it does not. islam's outworking is as designed. The utter chaos is not a defect, it's by design.

I will not cease to speak the truth about the falsehood of islam. No nation, no community, no people, no individual has ever demonstrated or exemplified any good coming out of islam, that was unique to islam or did not precede islam.


TV

It is unnecessary for Islam to have invented every discipline to challenge your assertion. Rather, a single, demonstrably unique and enduring contribution rooted in its intellectual tradition suffices. One such example stands out which is the systematic preservation, transmission, and integration of Greek, Persian, and Indian scientific knowledge into a unified, multilingual scholarly ecosystem. Without this achievement, the later scientific synthesis in Europe would not have been possible. This is not to claim that Islam originated mathematics or medicine, but rather that it established the civilizational mechanisms that safeguarded and expanded these fields at a time when Europe had largely lost access to their foundational sources.

The argument based on efficacy over 1400 years is flawed, as the rise and fall of civilizations are shaped by geopolitical forces, not theology alone. The historical trajectories of Rome, Byzantium, Christendom, and modern secular states all follow similar patterns. The current state of Afghanistan, for instance, reveals no more about the essence of Islam than the Inquisition does about Christianity or Hiroshima about modern science.

Islam’s claim to universality does not require an ethnic prophet for every nation. The Qur’an itself acknowledges the existence of previous messengers, though not all are named (Qur’an 40:78). The use of Arabic as a liturgical language does not undermine Islam’s validity any more than Hebrew does for Judaism or Latin did for medieval Christianity.

It is important to recognize that polemical statements are not evidence. Assertions such as no miracles, no name, or no power remain claims, not substantiated arguments. Repetition does not transform them into proof. If Islam were inherently incapable of fostering order, learning, or continuity, it would not have maintained coherent legal, educational, and administrative systems across continents for over a thousand years.

Robust disagreement is entirely legitimate however, dismissing a civilization without proportion, historical context, or consistent standards is not genuine analysis it is ideology.

TV01:
At all. I outline and detail the real-world impact of islam (and it's followers). On every conceivable metric, islam and islamic communities are laggards and an overall drag to humanity

In my post above this, I spoke about the relevance of names in a scriptural context. The vacuity of the islamic scriptures and their total ability to grasp or transmit this exposes them as fraudulent and not of divine origin.

God's revelation of Himself through the Abrahamic lineage was unfolding. If anything, there should be a greater revelation to mohammed, if he was indeed rightfully part of that lineage and sent by The Almighty. There is no hiding place, no ruse - islam is false and that is evidenced in every which way one looks at it. Most especially when trying to claim continuation from earlier divine revelation and texts.


It is defenders of islam who reference waraqah in trying to validate islam. I merely demonstrate that he has no provenance, no imprimatur, and hence, no standing.

One thing. Just one. Please!

Please employ any metric of your choosing, and demonstrate any way islam engenders superior outcomes for it's communities or, has contributed anything to recent human advancement. One thing in either category. Come on man I'm bending over backwards here .

You continue to testify against yourself. The factors mentioned were experience by all the Nigerian regions. Plus, the colonialists left the northern elite with the upper hand politically. Still their religion and god could not prosper them. Rather it's been one long downward spiral in mass illiteracy, governmental malfeasance, widespread lawlessness and wholesale sectarian slaughter. With sharia law 0! In fact exacerbated by that very sharia law.

Look around you. Look around the world. Where islam goes, terror, bloodshed and destruction follow. Where it embeds, it's backwardness, regression and darkness. Look at individual muslim countries, or aggregates for all nations across any indicator or data point. islamic countries always lag in their own right, and islamic communities drag on any countries they form a sizeable part of.

Evidence ke? It's a living real-time reality - globally.


TV

Again you assert that Islam hinders humanity, and its scriptures lack substance, its followers are backward, and its influence is destructive. You ask for a single, concrete example,a real metric, that proves otherwise persistently rejecting all that had been earlier said?

When evaluating Islam’s influence, many immediately point to present-day challenges in some Muslim-majority countries such as corruption, poverty, or conflict. Yet, this approach is akin to judging the efficacy of medicine by observing those who refuse to take it. Historically, the Islamic world led humanity in learning, discovery, and civilization not through wealth or conquest, but through a sincere engagement with the Qur’an.

The Qur’an inspired a transformative worldview, encouraging the pursuit of knowledge and reflection on the natural world as signs of the Creator. This vision led to the establishment of the world’s first hospitals, public libraries, and universities. It gave rise to algebra, optics, astronomy, chemistry, and the scientific method itself. Figures such as Ibn al-Haytham, al-Khwarizmi, al-Zahrawi, and Ibn Sina did not merely recite scripture; they embodied the Qur’anic imperative to observe, reflect, and seek knowledge. Their contributions laid the groundwork for modern science and medicine. Notably, Western historians have acknowledged that the Renaissance and Enlightenment would have been impossible without the transmission of knowledge from the Muslim world.

You request a single metric so consider the scientific method. The very foundation of modern progress was shaped by Muslim scholars acting on Islamic principles. If you are reading this on a device built upon advances in optics and mathematics, you are already benefiting from Islam’s enduring legacy.

To claim that the Qur’an is vacuous overlooks its profound and lasting influence. How could an empty text ignite a civilization or be memorized, word for word, by millions across fourteen centuries? No other book in human history has achieved such preservation or impact. The Qur’an addresses both reason and spirit, calling humanity to a higher awareness of purpose and existence. It is not a mere imitation of previous scriptures; it is the continuation and culmination of the same divine message, intended for all humanity.

You suggest that if Muhammad peace be upon him were truly part of the Abrahamic tradition, his revelation should have been greater. In fact, it was. Earlier prophets were sent to specific peoples; Muhammad pbuh was sent to all peoples, in every language, for all times. As the Qur’an states: “We have not sent you except as a mercy to the worlds.” The greatness of this revelation lies not in novelty, but in its universality,its capacity to unite all nations under one God and one moral law.

Regarding Waraqah ibn Nawfal, once again, he was a Christian scholar who recognized the divine nature of Muhammad pbuh's experience. However, Islam does not rest on his testimony. The Qur’an was revealed through the angel Jibril and Waraqah’s involvement was brief. Remove him from the narrative, and the core of Islam remains unchanged.

You mention Nigeria and Sharia, suggesting Islam has failed there. In reality, what you observe is not Islam failing, but individuals failing to uphold its principles. Sharia was never intended as a political tool or slogan; it is a moral and legal framework designed to protect life, intellect, family, property, and faith. When invoked without justice, compassion, or knowledge, its true purpose is betrayed. The Qur’an itself condemns hypocrisy more severely than disbelief. Your attention should be more on the governing individuals that sustain poor governance.

The assertion that Islam brings destruction wherever it goes is not supported by history. In Spain, Islam fostered centuries of peaceful coexistence among Muslims, Christians, and Jews. When Caliph Umar may Allah be pleased with him, entered Jerusalem, he refused to pray in a church to prevent future claims over it. In China and Southeast Asia, Islam spread through trade, honesty, and scholarship not warfare. The violence witnessed today stems not from Islam itself, but from its abandonment, much as every faith has suffered at the hands of those who misuse it for power.

It is true that many Muslim countries face significant challenges today. The Qur’an anticipated such decline, stating “Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.” The struggles of Muslims are not evidence of Islam’s weakness. Civilizations rise and fall; only truth endures.

Despite global turmoil, Islam continues to grow not by force, but through conviction. Across the world, people are drawn to its simple, profound message; There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad pbuh is His messenger. Those disillusioned by materialism are rediscovering meaning in submission to their Creator.

If you see confusion among Muslims, your frustration is understandable. Yet, if you examine Islam itself, its scripture, ethics, legacy, and living spirit you will find a faith that uplifts both heart and mind, body and soul, in a way no empire or ideology has ever matched.

“Say: The truth has come, and falsehood has vanished. Indeed, falsehood is bound to vanish.” (Qur’an 17:81)

The truth of Islam does not depend on imperfect followers; it endures and shines by its own light.

TV01:
I agree with your first sentence here. But not the second. The "same Creator that Abraham knew" revealed his personal name. Why does the same creator have only a generic name, not a revealed name according to the acclaimed "seal of all the prophets".

Exodus 3 - 13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

Non of these biblical characters were cited as prophets - or lineal to the tribes of Israel. waraqah should not only be dismissed, he is not admissable - what is his lineage, his provenance, his background, his imprimatur from the Most High? A total random - not mentioned before or after. What are waraqahs bona fides?

One invention, one technological invention or scientific discovery attributable to a muslim in an islamic setting that has clearly advanced humankind. Sorry, islam can't. C'est impossible.

Islam can only lead to regression, not progression. This is readily apparent even in the Nigerian ecosystem. Islam is wholly attributable for the backwardness of the North. As I noted in my previous response in this thread. 15 million Jews have delivered more than 2 billion muslims in technological advancements using the Nobel prize as a metric.

Harping on about past glories - which are debateable at best - does not ameliorate the void in innovation, invention, creativity and advancement in the islamic world. Economies, 3rd tier, militaries, inefficient, dubious human rights and civil liberties, customary violence against women and girls and a host of other failings.

I forgot to add in my last post notes about islams failure to eradicate slavery, sex slavery, child sexual violations (euphemistically termed marriage), few rights and liberties due to it's totalitarian nature, repression of minorities. There is nothing good to come out of islam. And the more islam a community has the worse it becomes.


TV

You're not really making a point here; you're just recycling old assumptions and pretending they're conclusions.

There's no biblical rule that says God has to use the same covenant name for every prophet that comes after. Even the Bible itself doesn’t stick to that. YHWH was revealed to Israel specifically for Israel; Abraham was aware of the same Creator long before that name was ever mentioned. Expecting a later, non-Israelite prophet to use an Israel-specific covenant name is more about nostalgia than actual scripture.

Waraqah is just a distraction. Islam doesn’t hinge on his authority, lineage, or credibility. The Qur’an clearly states that revelation came through an angel (Qur’an 2:97; 26:193–194). If you were to remove Waraqah from the picture, Islamic doctrine would still stand strong. Treating him as the cornerstone of Islam only highlights the weakness of that argument.

The assertion that Islam contributed nothing falls apart with a little historical knowledge. Algebra, experimental optics, clinical medicine, hospitals, universities, pharmacology, surgical tools, and astronomical tables all emerged from Islamic civilizations and directly influenced Europe’s Renaissance. Claiming they were conquered cultures doesn’t save that argument. Europe itself gained much of its Greek knowledge through Arabic channels. You can’t celebrate the Renaissance while ignoring the library that kept it alive.

Counting Nobel Prizes is just rhetorical fluff, not a serious way to analyze civilizations. By that logic, you could label most of Africa, Asia, and Latin America as civilizational failures and this says more about the metric than the societies themselves. History isn’t a scorecard like a football game.

And blaming Islam for the issues in Northern Nigeria while overlooking colonial borders, exploitative governance, military rule, and post-colonial economic turmoil isn’t insightful it’s just convenient.

Bold claims need solid evidence. What’s being presented instead is certainty without foundation, noise without substance, and dismissal where a thoughtful explanation is needed.

TV01:
So you agree, allah is not a personal, revealed name. It's a "term"

So not the revealed personal name of the Creator?

Ok then, what is the revealed or personal name of the islamic god

Isnad? That is an islamic contrivance that essentially means folklore

What are mohammeds antecedents? Specifically his connection to the 12 tribes f Israel, from where YAHWEH' prophets emanated. Likewise the bona fides of Waraqua, who confirmed his cave encounter as a divinely ordered angelic encounter?

Algebraic notions was evident in ancient Babylon, through Egypt and Greece.. Let me be clear, islam is inherently incapable of scientific rigour, rational thinking and hence technological advancement.

There may have been periods during islamic expansionism that advancement were made in conquered nations, which would have been attributed to islam by default, but islamic thinking itself did not produce these advances.

Persia was not an islamic country, it was conquered by islam. I grant that there was a period of knowledge gathering and preservation in the islamic empire, but not anything new or innovative due to islam itself.

Fifteen million Jews have 25% of the Nobel peace prizes. The whole of islam has 2 and a bit - shared amongst 2 billion people. Enough said


TV

The name “Allah” isn’t something new; it’s actually the Arabic word for God that was used long before Islam by various groups, including pagans, Jews, and Christians. Islam doesn’t claim to introduce a new name for the divine but rather aims to bring back the worship of the same Creator that Abraham knew. It’s also important to note that biblical prophets weren’t just from Israel as figures like Job, Melchizedek, and Balaam were outside the 12 tribes, showing that lineage isn’t a requirement for being a prophet. Waraqah, a literate Christian who understood biblical angelology, shouldn’t be dismissed without solid evidence; doing so is more about making a statement than presenting a real argument.

When we look at Babylon, Greece, and Egypt, we see they had their own mathematics, but it was in the Islamic world that algebra was developed into a formal, abstract discipline. Simply preserving knowledge doesn’t account for the original contributions made. Yes, Persia was conquered, but that doesn’t explain the brilliance of thinkers like Ibn al-Haytham, al-Biruni, or al-Khwarizmi; it’s the intellectual frameworks that matter. Nobel statistics reflect modern geopolitics and access, not the truth of theology or the causes of history. To dismiss the entire intellectual legacy of a civilization as incapable by nature is more about rhetoric than genuine analysis.

TV01:
The same term for the generic word god. A term used to describe the pre-islamic pagan deities worshipped by the people of the time. Note, mohammeds father abduallah - slave of god - pre-dated islam. It is not the revealed or personal name of the creator of all things, The Everlasting God, Yahweh, The I AM that I AM.

A god with no name, a "prophet" with no provenance and scriptures with no historical proof.

Not poetic. And even if it is, it's meaning is unmistakeably clear.

I did not claim that islam has contributed nothing, but that it had not contributed anything uniquely positive. Point to one invention that came solely from muslims, from an islamic miliea. And show me one social pathology that islam has eliminated.

TV

The assertion that Allah is a pagan name is fundamentally mistaken. In fact, Allah is the ancient Semitic term for The God, and its usage predates Islam by centuries. Arab Jews and Arab Christians referred to the God of Abraham as Allah long before the rise of Islam. Even today, the Arabic Bible uses Allah not as a generic label, but as the singular Creator. Christian Arabs continue to pray to Allah al-Ab, meaning God the Father. Just as Elohim existed before Christianity, Allah is rooted in a much older linguistic tradition. The antiquity of a word does not render it pagan simply because it was once misapplied by others.

The claim that Allah is a god with no name reflects a misunderstanding of Semitic religious thought. In the Hebrew Bible, God is most often addressed by titles such as El, Elohim, and Adonai, rather than by the specific name YHWH. After the exile, Jewish tradition even avoided pronouncing the divine name altogether. Islam follows this longstanding Near Eastern pattern, emphasizing a transcendent God known through attributes rather than human-like naming conventions.
The suggestion that Muhammad was a prophet with no provenance is contradicted by the historical record. Muhammad stands alone among the founders of major world religions in having his genealogy, community, teachings, conflicts, legal rulings, and public life documented by thousands of contemporaries. These accounts have been preserved through multiple independent chains of transmission (isnad). By comparison, no ancient figure including Jesus or Moses has left behind such extensive contemporaneous documentation.

When asked for achievements unique to the Islamic world, two examples stand out;
Al-Khwarizmi’s Algebra; the development of algebra (al-jabr) by Al-Khwarizmi did not originate from Greek, Persian, or Indian sources. It is a foundational mathematical system that underpins modern science and technology worldwide.
Ibn al-Haytham’s rigorous, proof-based approach to optics laid the groundwork for the modern scientific method, a fact recognized by Western historians of science. These innovations were not borrowed; they emerged from within the Islamic intellectual tradition itself.
Regarding the issue of social pathologies,it is important to recognize that classical Islamic law systematically abolished many of the social ills that afflicted late antiquity. These included infanticide, unrestricted polygamy, hereditary caste slavery, exploitative usury, and cycles of tribal vengeance. Such reforms are well-documented by non-Muslim historians of Arabia. Whether or not one agrees with Islamic theology, the historical impact of these reforms is undeniable.

1. “Allah” as a pre-Islamic Semitic term (including names like ʿAbd-Allah before Islam)

• F. E. Peters, The Monotheists: Jews, Christians, and Muslims in Conflict and Competition, Princeton University Press, 2003.
(Discusses pre-Islamic use of “Allah” among Arabs, including Christians and pagans.)

2. “Allah” used by Arab Christians and Jews long before Islam, and still used in the Arabic Bible
• Sidney H. Griffith, The Bible in Arabic: The Scriptures of the “People of the Book” in the Language of Islam, Princeton University Press, 2013.
(Shows that Arab Christians used “Allah” in scripture translations centuries before Islam.)

3. Al-Khwarizmi and the invention / foundation of algebra
• J. L. Berggren, Episodes in the Mathematics of Medieval Islam, Springer, 2016.
(Details how Al-Khwarizmi’s al-Jabr founded algebra as a discipline.)

4. Ibn al-Haytham as the father of optics
• David C. Lindberg, Theories of Vision from Al-Kindi to Kepler, University of Chicago Press, 1976.
(Explains how Ibn al-Haytham’s Kitāb al-Manāẓir laid the foundation for modern optics.)

5. Broader scientific impact of the Islamic Golden Age
• George Saliba, Islamic Science and the Making of the European Renaissance, MIT Press, 2007.
(Documents how Islamic scientific work directly shaped later European scientific advancement.)

6. Social reforms eliminating pre-Islamic practices (infanticide, blood-feud violence, exploitation, etc.)
• W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammad at Mecca, Oxford University Press, 1953.
(Shows the social problems of pre-Islamic Arabia and the ethical reforms brought by Islam.)