₦airaland Forum

TenQ:
Meaningless rattles!


Only with you does a simple question requires evidence.
Are the opinion Zakir Naik or Ahmed Deedat scriptures to you?




Islam doesn't cancel adoption but you can marry the wife of your adopted son!?

Qur'an 33:37
And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah


You have an adopted son, but you can marry his wife!?
SMH!!



The GENE'S are in the chromosome sir. It has nothing to do with we ejaculates first.

It is an error the least Angel of God will make such a silly error!


Didn't In show you the correlation with the names of the daughters of Allah!?

By the way, if Allah is the name of your God, what does Allah mean?




When something is Left out of a copied document, it cannot be said to be perfectly preserved. When things are abrogated from the copied document, it cannot be perfectly preserved!




So, tell me why your God gave the name of the book given to Jesus a Greek influenced name?

The Talmud is far more central to Judaism than the works of Naik or Deedat are to Islam.

There is no blood relation there. It is your wish and you failed to answer if Joke Sylvia has a biological relation with her adopting parents.

Genes on sex chromosomes (X and Y) do influence facial features to some extent, but they are not the main contributors to why a child resembles their mother or father.

Genetic inheritance of facial features is not linear or predictable. The exact mechanism is far more complex than the generic understanding suggests.

In the verse you fabricated by adding what isn't there and incerting a wrong inconceivable word or phrase in Arabic grammer? Keep exercising yourself in falsehood and make belief.

It will be correct if there indeed was a copy to copy that from? Sure you don't understand that all that was compiled existed in written form and had those who had memorized.

The injil of Jesus wasn't documented and the four gospels you hold on to were not written in his lifetime. Don't they disagree with each other in certain reports?

TenQ:
Again,
Then last part of my post

You should take up your deleted post with the platform not me or wrongly assume the reason for. In any case you tend to prefer WRONG Q and it's who you are.

Where are the books of Deedat and Naik taken as sacred outside your mistaken manufacturing? Please tell and give evidence. Their opinions are largely impressive and revered but not to the extent of being sacred. Only you christians do that in promoting a messenger of God. A creation of God not God.

You can have your faulty conclusions and opinions within your rights.

Unable to differentiate that adoption isn't forbidden but an overreach corrected. Will Joke Sylvia's genetic test now show she us a biological descendant of her adopting parents?

How queer is your reasoning? Is that the meaning of the Q in your pseudonym or quarrelsome?

Sadly you are too far gone to see prophet Muhammad pbuh didn't refer to gender inheritance. It is your jewish brethren's view. Can you tell from your 23 chromosomes which exactly influence physical similarity in appearance? If this were the case what then is the point for going as far as cloning which isn't absolutely successful. Warped sillly thoughts you choose to have?

Show where and how lah is a standalone word. You can't. Keep lying to yourself and unthinking following friends.

Regardless of your erroneous thoughts the Quran is perfectly preserved. The Qiraat have influence of the other harfs of divine revelation and there's nothing you can do about it.

Ireneus of Lyon said "There are four zones of the world… and four principal winds… it is fitting that the Church should have four pillars…”

This is not a theological or historical reason.

Goslel book titles were assigned later, possibly to lend credibility to anonymous texts.

The final form of Scripture had imperial sponsorship, which raises questions about independent spiritual consensus.

Texts that contradicted what came to be considered “orthodox” things like, that Jesus wasn’t divine, or that God didn’t create the material world—were excluded as heretical.

The process of canonization was as much about defining orthodoxy as preserving historical truth.

The Gospels were often chosen based on what they excluded, not just what they included.

Go figure that or query that instead. It will be more productive use of your time.

Bye!

TenQ:
There are prompts that trigger the Bots: check if you could find any with my post. Only a human will delete posts scanned as pictures. The number of my posts deleted on this thread will be up to SIX.
Tell the overzealous moderator not to be afraid of the Truth!

Victim mentality playing out?

TenQ:
What a silly argument!
Do you have access as a Muslim to their Qur'an as Muslims?
At least In have shown you hadiths and the Qur'an to prove my case..

Do you deny saying:

TenQ:
You will notice that I have concentrated just between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar and I have shown you discrepancies you cannot dispute.

You say:
You will notice that I have concentrated just between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar and I have shown you discrepancies you cannot dispute.
This strongly suggests that you believe you have:

- Compared the “Qur'an of Muhammad” with the “Qur'an of Abubakar” referring to the revelations recited by the Prophet versus the compilation made during Abu Bakr’s time as caliph);
- Noted differences between the two;
- Centered the discussion exclusively on these two versions, rather than considering other compilations or recensions, like Uthman's.

This implies that you had access to both versions and has performed a comparative analysis.

So, yes — the statement indicates that you claim to have examined both texts.


Try save face and correct my understanding and English.

TenQ:
Then quote the full text and burst me!?
It is simple!
Only a Muslim will see untruths but hold on tightly to it.

Keep deceiving yourself on what you clearly see despite also knowing there are varied revelations that have the same core meaning.

TenQ:
Unfortunately, it is you who have created Allah in your own image. Allah looks exactly like the Dajjal except that the Dajjal has one eyes but Allah has two. The oneness of Allah is like the oneness of things on earth!

No wonder you believe the supreme God has to become his creation to salvage his creation. You have diminished your God and as such easily fall for the deception of the antichrist Dajjal

TenQ:
The Qur'an was collected BUT not collected.
The Qur'an was written BUT not written
The Qur'an was memorised BUT abrogated

Mr limited limiting knowledge.
Do you remember every single thing you were taught in school to the very detail. That's even going too far. Do you remember every single thing you did just yesterday to the exact time point. This is where Allah, the almighty God is far above you.

TenQ:
Either Jibril dictated to Mohammed as Quran things not in the Qur'an of Allah
OR
The Qur'an is NOT a copy but an abridged summary of the Qur'an of Allah.

Which of the two is it?

Definitely not. Revelation came down over time and injunctions came and were relaxed as needed and appropriate. Why does this exist in your Bible?I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. John 16:12

TenQ:
But Adoption wasn't abrogated gradually!
SMH!
Marrying your adopted sons wife wasn't abrogated gradually!
SMH!

If alcoholic drink is from Shaitan , why gradually abrogate it?.

Is there good reason why adoption still takes place in the world today?
Is it not a fact that regardless of papers and process an adopted relative can never be the same as a biological relative.

How many immediate alcoholics automatically and instantaneously stop consuming alcohol. Sure you can see no wisdom in how it became forbidden? Even you compilation advices against consumption to drunkenness yet many fall short.

Don't you see your emotional and sentimental error?

TenQ:
You have to explain the error of Mohammed for him again!?

According to your prophet
As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."

This is COMPLETELY scientifically UNTRUE and INCORRECT?

Sorry mr scientist. Science can largely explain genetic inheritance and its connection to physical traits but it does not yet fully explain every detail or does it?

TenQ:
Another standard islamic narrative to explain away previous lies.
Were the abrogated verses in the eternal uncreated Qur'an of Allah in paradise or NOT?

They have zero divine value o!
They are writings of different Jewish scholars and scribes.

Are the Books of Ahmed Deedat divine for you as Muslims ?
Are the Books of Zakir Naik divine for you as a Muslim?

You asked a direct question and it was answered but you are angry!
Because Al-LAH is not YHWH is he?
Because Al-LAH is a subset of the Universe, isn't he?

There is no such Arabic as Al-Lah.

You can as well have all Christians and Jews desist from attending church and temples to have their clergy preach or explain the scripture. Perhaps explaining things they don't readily understand.

TenQ:
Mr Explore2xmore,
Your Muslim Admin as usual has gone to delete my post. Why are you guys like this?

Part TWO

Very shameless of you to label the automate system as Muslim controlled when you know it is an automated system you fall foul off and is religion independent.

In any case you claim to restrict your analysis to between prophet Muhammad pbuh and Abubakar yet you don't have access to any of their material you claim to reference. Are you fooling yourself?


You deliberately quote just a word from these alone verses because you know your lie will be exposed otherwise. Shame on you!

Why not? Do you think there is anything that occurs in this life that is outside the record, allowance and command of Allah? Keep creating your supreme deity in your own image.


The Quran was collected in the lifetime of prophet Muhammad pbuh. In the sense that it was fully revealed, explained, recited, written but not in one collection during his lifetime.

What was willed to be collected into the Quran is. Remember it was revised twice in the final year.

What was to be retained remained in the memory of the companions, was found written and all what was abrogated wasn't found in memory and written form.

You see the gradual abrogation of alcohol consumption,verses that were abrogated during the Prophet’s lifetime,verses that were recited but not written like the so-called stoning verse but remain in the law.

Fluid prevalence can be metaphorical for genetic domination. In any case it will be great to understand all factors that influence gene domination.

In essence not all abrogation means deletion. Sometimes the text remains, but the ruling changes as in alcohol verses). Also both text and ruling are lifted where such cases are called naskh al-tilāwah.

You deny that the divine authority residing in the Talmud, Mishnah, and Gemara stems from their reliance on the foundational truths presented in the Tanakh and Torah?

Well since you asset so high wisdom to yourself and claim to challenge Allah (may he be praised above all this and as is due to him) it is best to ignore you and leave you to Allah the almighty.

All this trouble to divert from your lies of actually comparing your said Quran of Muhammad pbuh and Quran of Abubakar? You never had access to what you claim of either but say too much and don't know or remember when you lie.

TenQ:
I don't explain hadiths, I ask questions about them. Honesttalk21 repeatedly did not answer most of my direct questions on the hadiths. I didn't ask for explanation of hadiths I asked that you answer my questions and here you both failed.

You don't explain hadith but first explained it to yourself and question for the sake of mockery since you understand it wrongly?

This is pathetic deceit and shameful hypocrisy.

TenQ:
According to your prophet
As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."

Is this scientifically true and correct?


So, tell me where the Jews got this information from their scripture. If it is in there Scriptures, then I believe it!
Is this in the scripture of the Jews or their scholars invented it?

The hadith where properly stated doesn't deny both parents contribute to the child and refers to aspects of the physical appearance of the child.

As for your Jewish brethren it from what they have to explain their scripture or is that not true? Define and explain the Talmud.

TenQ:
1. Was the verse of stoning adulterers in the Qur'an of Abubakar? No! But it was in the Qur'an according to Mohammed
1. Was the verse of breastfeeding an adult man in the Qur'an of Abubakar? No! But it was in the Qur'an according to Mohammed

There was indeed a verse in the Qur’an that mentioned stoning, but the specific wording was later abrogated, even though the ruling itself remained in effect. The fact that it’s not found in the Qur'an reflects a deeper divine wisdom in legislation, yet the ruling has been preserved through practice and hadith.

Regarding breastfeeding "Forbidden to you [for marriage] are: your mothers... and your foster-mothers who breastfed you, and your foster-sisters..."(Qur’an 4:23)

The absence of any objects where it was written and non clear remembrance of the verses is divine and proof of the abrogation/lifting of these verses.


Show where you saw the Qurans of Muhammad pbuh and Abubakar. You liar.

TenQ:
Explore2xmore

Here are just TWO where verses mean different things between the Warsh Qur'an and Hafs Qur'an

1. Surah Al-Imran (3:146)
Hafs version: The verse uses the word "قاتل" (qātila), meaning "fought". It says the prophets fought alongside many godly men.
Warsh version: The verse uses the word "قُتِلَ" (qutila), meaning "were killed". It says many prophets were killed along with their companions.

Is it possible to fight but not killed?

2. Surah Al-Baqarah (2:140)
Hafs version: Uses the word "تقولون" (taqulūna), meaning "you say", addressing the Jews and Christians directly.
Warsh version: Uses "يقولون" (yaqulūna), meaning "they say", referring to them indirectly.

Who said what to who?


Here is Allah's promise again as I am giving it to you for the second time in this thread.
Qur'an 87:6-7
"We shall make you recite, so you will not forget, except what Allah wills. Indeed, He knows what is manifest and what is hidden."

Tell me how the Qur'an of Mohammed can be identical to the Kalam Allah if Mohammed forgot just one word of it?


Not identical word for word, dot for dot! I have shown you evidences from your sources.


Ibn Mas'ud's Qur'an
1. Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf did not include Surah al-Fatiha (the Opening) and the two final chapters, al-Falaq and al-Nas (collectively known as al-Mu’awwidhatayn)
2. The order of surahs in Ibn Mas'ud’s mushaf differed from the canonical arrangement established in Abubakar's Qur'an

https://www.icraa.org/surahs-mushaf-ibn-masud/

Ubayy's Qur'an
1. Ubayy’s Qur'an is reported to have included two additional surahs not found in the Uthmanic (and thus Abu Bakr’s) mushaf: Surah al-Hafd and Surah al-Khal’ (sometimes numbered as 115 and 116)

https://www.icraa.org/no-of-surahs-in-ubayys-mushaf/

Quote the two verses in full not just the single word differences let's check the effect on the whole meaning?


Are you challenging Allah causing his creation to remember and forget? It seems you also tend to claim to never forget?

You imagine that what is in the Kalam Allah doesn't contain this too? Please tell another lie that you have also seen that.

You are wrong as you will need to show discrepancy in every Qiraat though the centuries. Don't forget that the Qiraat are divinely supported.

Ask for information about why Ubay had additions and Ibn Masud omissions.
You hold on to what have good reason to support your falsehood.

TenQ:
It is amazing that honesttalk21 didn't provide evidences nor did he answer any direct questions BUT according to you, his repeating of the standard Islamic Narrative is a superior answer to evidences he couldn't respond to!

Honesttalk21 properly explained the hadith you misunderstood. Should he have given new hadith to buttress the point?

TenQ:
Isn't it a shame that your prophet who should receive from Allah is regurgitating wrong information written by Jewish scholars in their books.

You see your eagerness to run with your misconceptions? Is what the prophet pbuh said exactly like the what the jews said? Please don't rush to wrongly conclude, read and compare so you know.


If the Jews had problems with Jesus did you not even expand on what these wrong are? Did Jesus call you christian or ask you to disobey the old laws not the wrong priestly actions and interpretation,

TenQ:
Is it not true that ANYTHING of Doctrinal value that Mohammed speaks is directed by Allah?


If it is TRUE, you have a problem that Mohammed was transmitting scientific errors as from Allah

You won't believe in any case.
Which scientific errors did the prophet Muhammad pbuh transmit? Rather you are the one in error.

TenQ:
You will notice that I have concentrated just between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar and I have shown you discrepancies you cannot dispute.

Fantastic! You now lie that you have a Quran of Muhammad pbuh that is different from that of Abu Bakr?

Please share some verses of each i.e of prophet Muhammad pbuh and Abubakar, to prove and validate if you don't characteristically lie.

TenQ:
Hafs Qur'an
Warsh Qur'an
Qalun Qur'an
Al-Duri Qur'an
Khalaf Qur'an
Ibn 'Amir Qur'an
Abu Ja'far Qur'an

Are all different, so which one is the exact copy of the Qur'an of Allah in paradise?

Please these are Qiraat (recitation types). In total they are 20 not 32 and you can fit your false claim of 32 into them.

None give any core difference in core meaning. Try prove me wrong!

TenQ:
He was born about 600 years after the Hijrah but he is your authority on the Qur'an against testimonies of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy!?

What did he say against Ibn Masud and Ubay? For him to have said and be recognised is simply because verifiable information was available for him to study, reference and give valid views about. Nothing was or is hidden?

TenQ:
You did NOT answer my questions sir.
AGAIN:

Cc: Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

1. You just agreed with me that the Qur'an was collected and written down during the lifetime of your prophet.

I still ask the Question
Where is the Qur'an of Mohammed written on pieces of clothes?

2. You said:
The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars,
BUT, the claim of modern Muslims is that, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter even up to the diacritical marks.

So, my question remains
Which of the over 32 Arabic Qur'an in existence is the EXACT copy of the Kalam Allah/ the Qur'an of Allah in paradise from which Jibril recited the Qur'an to Mohammed?

Don't put your words into my written responses. The Quran was written and the prophet orally informed which verses and surahs went where. The Quran wasn't compiled into a single book in the prophet's life.

Which irrelevant question exactly did I not answer?

Why do you ask of Prophet Muhammad pbuh 's Quran when you already have it to have compared with Abubakar's? You were lying so easily forgot?

TenQ:
You will notice that I have concentrated just between the Qur'an of Mohammed and the Qur'an of Abubakar and I have shown you discrepancies you cannot dispute.

You showed discrepancy between Muhammad pbuh's Quran and Abubakar's?

TenQ:
Where is the Qur'an of Mohammed written on pieces of clothes?

This may become your reknown archaeological find when you find it.

There's no surviving example of Quran written on cloth that has been authenticated to date as being from the 7th century,from Medina or Mecca that was written during the Prophet’s actual lifetime.

Cloth is much less durable than parchment or bone, especially in Arabia’s climate. It likely decomposed over time, unlike more robust materials.

TenQ:
2. You said:
The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars,
BUT, [b]the claim of modern Muslims is that, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter even up to the diacritical marks.

What is your problem here? What is to be is, a few verses abrogated are seen along with what abrogated them.
Yes I repeat what is preserved and protected by Allah is what is available to the very exact. Inclusive of the variations you ignorantly yap about as different.

Repeating already answered questions will be ignored.

SIRTee15:
Exactly the argument. Standardised Quran is a collective compilation NOT the solo dictation Jibril gave to Muhammed.
If different sahabas were reciting different Qurans, it shows there was a divergence at the beginning which was later harmonised thru coercion and intimidation.

That Quran was preserved from Muhammed downwards is a fallacy.

How do you make a confirmation based on speculative phrases. The premise isn't certain

SIRTee15:
Exactly the argument. Standardised Quran is a collective compilation NOT the solo dictation Jibril gave to Muhammed.
If different sahabas were reciting different Qurans, it shows there was a divergence at the beginning which was later harmonised thru coercion and intimidation.

That Quran was preserved from Muhammed downwards is a fallacy.

You agree the dictation/revelation was in different ways?

SIRTee15:
Exactly the argument. Standardised Quran is a collective compilation NOT the solo dictation Jibril gave to Muhammed.
If different sahabas were reciting different Qurans, it shows there was a divergence at the beginning which was later harmonised thru coercion and intimidation.

That Quran was preserved from Muhammed downwards is a fallacy.

No you oversimplify in some thought and wrongly conclude.

The Uthman codec used the dialect of Quraysh which is the dialect of prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Definitely one of the Ahruf in which the Quran was revealed and it could still accommodate various Qiraat.

What ʿUthmān Did:

- Standardize the written Qur’ān into one Uthmanic codex using the Quraysh dialect, the dialect of the Prophet pbuh

- Allow for multiple Qirāʾāt within that codex, as long as they didn’t contradict the rasm (the basic consonantal structure).

- Distribute official muṣḥafs to key regions and ordered the destruction of other divergent written copies to prevent confusion.

He did not:
- Eliminate the concept of Aḥruf altogether.
- Forbid or erase authentic Qirāʾāt that were taught by the Prophet pbuh and preserved through ijazah (certified transmission).
- Alter the content or theology of the Qur’ān.

What Happened to the Seven Aḥruf?
According to prominent scholars like Ibn al-Jazari, al-Suyuti, al-Qurtubi, and Ibn Taymiyyah:

After the Prophet’s passing, Umar and Uthman noticed that these Aḥruf were leading to disputes, especially as Islam spread to non-Arab communities.

ʿUthmān’s standardization aimed to preserve one Harf (Quraysh), which was deemed sufficient, while the Qirāʾāt continued to be preserved orally as part of that tradition.

The other Aḥruf weren’t removed by human action but were lifted by Allah’s will over time to prevent confusion.

TenQ:
So , go back to my posts you decided not to touch.

Only Muslims celebrate winning after they have been beaten blue-black like Gaza will celebrate winning whenever Israel just finished dealing with them.

Three pages of evidence against you!

Very weak and vain of you to bring in celebrate? What is there to celebrate?

Talmud is not scripture, but is essential for understanding and practicing the religion.

So the Jews are wrong to state tha?

All that a diligent student will innovate in Torah was already given to Moses at Sinai.”
— Talmud, Menachot 29b

“The words of the Scribes are more beloved than the words of the Torah.”
— Talmud, Sanhedrin 11:3

Oh you say you are Christian and claim you don't see any significance in the jews?

TenQ:
Honesttalk21 and CreativeOrbit

1. You just agreed with me that the Qur'an was collected and written down during the lifetime of your prophet.

I still ask the Question
Where is the Qur'an of Mohammed written on pieces of clothes?

2. You said:
The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars,
BUT, the claim of modern Muslims is that, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved word for word, letter for letter even up to the diacritical marks.

So, my question remains
Which of the over 32 Arabic Qur'an in existence is the EXACT copy of the Kalam Allah/ the Qur'an of Allah in paradise from which Jibril recited the Qur'an to Mohammed?

Please use any of your innovative devices to go record the recitation over 23 years of prophethood.

Go and study your claimed 32 Arabic Quran and regroup them for which are the same. There is a fundamental error in the claim.

You can't find out who Imam Al-Qarafi is without me? Seriously now

TenQ:
It is a pity for you.
Chain of Transmission of Qur'an!?
When I did not even extend beyond the differences between the Qur'an of Mohammed and that of Abubakar? I have not even gotten to the Qur'an of Uthman yet.





No wonder, the cowardly Admin deleted my response specifically to you on your self make-believe about honesttalk21.

Anyone who reads this chat from the beginning will see how weak your Islamic position is about the Qur'an!

To change the subject, you ran away from specific hadiths 1-5 to argue with SIRTeee15 to argue about CONSENSUS of Islamic scholars who came 300 to 600 years after Mohammed!

Go back to the origin of Islam and check what your earliest scholars say.

Don't react in this way. I only pointed out a clear flaw in the position your friend Sirtee15 put you in.

The chain of transmission provides a trace back to the origin from the prophet Muhammad pbuh which you choose to overlook or are unable to study.

The variants you force about are divine. What is there to run from? Keeping the discussion centred on the Quran's preservation!

SIRTeee15:
Really, I thought Quran transmission and preservation is word for word.
The consensus on Sanaa manuscripts amongst scholars is not anonymous.

While Gabriel Said Reynolds offers thoughtful academic insights, his use of speculative phrases like "one might imagine…" doesn’t equate to a firm assertion about a lost or hidden Qur’an.

The Ṣanʿāʾ palimpsest doesn’t undermine the Qur’an’s integrity. Instead, it:

Affirms a rich history of oral and written transmission

Shows early flexibility in expression—something you'd expect in a vibrant oral culture

Confirms that the final standardized Qur’an is the result of a careful, collective effort, rather than a solo rewrite.

SIRTeee15:
After Uthman had him beaten and got his ribs broken? That sounds like intimidation and oppression- what gangsters will do to have their way.

The absence of robust primary evidence supporting claims of violence against ibn Mas'ud undermines the assertion's credibility.

SIRTeee15:
The Prophet Muhammad said: “The Koran was revealed in seven dialects, all of them are right and perfect.” When Uthman banned whichever he banned from the Koran, and burned whichever he burned, he banned passages Allah has revealed and burned parts of the Koran which were given to the Muslims by the Messenger of Allah. He appointed a small group of Sahaba (close friends of Muhammad) to rewrite the Koran and left out those who heard the Prophet and memorized what he said. When Ibn Massoud objected to the burning of the other codices of the Koran, Uthman had him taken out of the mosque with violence, and struck him to the ground, and broke one of his ribs. (Hussein, A-Fitnato Al-Kobra [The Great Sedition], pp. 160-161, 181-182)

These are your own Islamic sources providing historic evidence that there was serious disagreement amongst the Sahaba about what should constitute the Quran, they couldn't even agree.

The idea that preservation of the Qur'an can be traced to Muhammed is a lie. It's a claim not supported by your own Islamic narratives and sources.

TenQ is already justice with the textual variance of different Quranic manuscripts.

SIRTeee15:
After Uthman had him beaten and got his ribs broken? That sounds like intimidation and oppression- what gangsters will do to have their way.

The authenticity of the Qur'an has sparked quite a bit of scholarly discussion, especially when it comes to the actions of Caliph Uthmān ibn Affān and his interactions with key figures like Ibn Mas‘ūd. One claim suggests that Ibn Mas‘ūd was against the burning of personal mushafs and that Uthmān even assaulted him, leading to broken ribs. However, historical evidence largely contradicts this narrative. Reliable sources, such as Sahih Bukhārī and Sahih Muslim, don’t back up these reports of violence, indicating that the stories about Uthmān's aggression likely come from weak or fabricated hadiths often found in Shia literature or Orientalist writings.

Another claim suggests that Surah al-Ahzab originally had 200 verses, referencing narrations from Aisha (RA) and Ubayy ibn Ka‘b. While these accounts appear in Musnad Ahmad, they face scrutiny due to their weaker chains of transmission. Most scholars interpret these references to additional verses as relating to abrogated content rather than a genuine reduction in length by Uthmān. Historical theology recognizes the principle of naskh (abrogation), where certain verses revealed during the Prophet’s lifetime were removed by divine will, a concept that classical scholars accept.

In addition , the idea that Ubayy ibn Ka‘b had a different mushaf with extra surahs doesn’t imply wrongdoing on Uthmān’s part; these differences reflect early teaching methods rather than any corruption of the text. Overall, the narrative that seeks to undermine Uthmān’s role in the Qur'anic compilation lacks solid evidence and overlooks the agreement among the Sahabah, including Ali ibn Abi Talib, who backed Uthmān's efforts to standardize the text. Therefore, what might seem like inconsistencies or omissions are better understood through the lenses of abrogation, dialect standardization, and the preservation of oral tradition.


You will do better in scrutinizing the authenticity of the claims that Ibn Masud was beaten up to forcefully accept the standardised Quran.

Did Tenq show how the core meaning of the verses were lost? Did he prove any wrong or faults in the transmission chain? No!

Or is it how honesttalk21 dismantled his reliance on a pronounciation of words in one verse that is easily explained by dialectic difference you refer to?

SIRTeee15:
One of the greatest reciters approved by Muhammed himself, Ibn Masud called the Quranic script compiled by Uthman a corrupt work and rightly rejected it.

When ibn Masud protested the burning of his own Quran he personally compiled, he was beaten, his ribs broken and thrown out of the mosque on the order of Uthman

Abdullah Ibn Masud said, “I recited from the Messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs which I had perfected before Zaid Ibn Thabit had embraced Islam.” (The Codices of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy Ibn Ka'b, – Ibn Abi Dawud’s Kitab al-Masahif, p. 17)

“I acquired directly from the Messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs when Zaid was still a childish youth - must I now forsake what I acquired directly from the Messenger of Allah?” ( Ibid., p. 15)

When Uthman's agents came to Kufa to burn all the variants, Abd Allah Ibn Masud hid his copy of Quran from them and told his followers to do the same. He justified his own version of the recitation by reminding people:

"I recited before Allah's Messenger more than seventy suras of the Qur'an. His Companions know that I have a better understanding of Allah's Book than they do; and if I were to know that someone had a better understanding than I have, I would have gone to him." It was said that nobody could find fault with Abd Allah's version
(Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 6022)

Let’s closely look at the situation with Ibn Mas‘ūd, who initially had some objections that are often misunderstood.

His Main Concerns were that he felt left out of the conversation, especially given his status as a senior reciter.

He believed that his own personal mushaf, which he had written under the guidance of the Prophet, deserved a place in the final compilation.

He had some disagreements regarding a few surahs most notably, he didn’t include Surah al-Falaq and an-Nās.

Importantly, there’s no authentic hadith or historical record that states Ibn Mas‘ūd labeled the Uthmanic Mushaf as "corrupt" in terms of alteration or fabrication. That term tends to pop up in more contentious or revisionist discussions, rather than in the works of mainstream Islamic historians.

In the end, Ibn Mas‘ūd did come to accept the Uthmanic mushaf.

He ceased his objections once the Ummah came together around it.

You rather base your stance on the hadith regarding 70 surahs and label the remaining 44 as false? Please identity these surahs for better scrutiny.

There’s no evidence to suggest he promoted an alternative Qur'an.

Imam al-Nawawī noted:

“The correct view is that he (Ibn Mas‘ūd) withdrew his opposition and aligned with the consensus.”

SIRTee15:
I don't believe the Quran is perfectly preserved right from the mouth of Muhammed. There was serious distortion and manipulation with the Quran development during the caliphate of Uthman.

He complied the Quran of his own wish and desire and burned the ones he didn't like.

The Sana manuscript is clear evidence of the discrepancy in Quranic compilation and tradition is early islamic era.

The Sanʿa manuscript is an essential piece for grasping how the early Qurʾān was transcribed and preserved. Its palimpsest nature shows a practical solution to the limited availability of parchment, rather than any theological disagreements. This common practice of erasing and rewriting over older texts doesn’t suggest that there were different versions of the scriptures; it simply highlights the logistical hurdles that early scribes faced.

Additionally, the differences observed in this manuscript, like variations in spelling, shouldn’t be confused with actual textual differences. Changes in spelling, word order, or missing diacritical marks were quite normal and didn’t change the meaning of the recitation. The later standardization through iʿjām and tashkil represents a move towards clarity, but it doesn’t mean there was any initial inconsistency in the message.

It’s also crucial to remember that the integrity of the Qurʾan has always been rooted in oral tradition. The dedicated memorization efforts by the sahabah and the Prophet Muhammad’s pbuh interactions with Jibrīl during Ramadan reinforce this oral tradition as fundamental.

Finally, even respected scholars like Michael Cook and Francois Deroche point out that while early manuscripts shed light on the preservation process, they don’t undermine the established consistency of the ʿUthmānic Qurʾān. Therefore, the Ṣanaa manuscript enriches our understanding rather than challenging core beliefs

SIRTee15:
I don't believe the Quran is perfectly preserved right from the mouth of Muhammed. There was serious disruption and manipulation with the Quran development during the caliphate of Uthman.

He complied the Quran of his own wish and desire and burned the ones he didn't like.

The Sana manuscript is clear evidence of the discrepancy in Quranic compilation and tradition is early islamic era.

It will be most valuable and sincere if you can clearly state what constitute the serious disruption and manipulation with the Quran under the caliphate of Uthman.

A blanket statement without substance is of no value.

TenQ:
1. Because he knows the answer Mohammed did not yet know.
2. The set of questions never existed either I. Judaism or Christianity. Only in Islam did we see the question being asked and the answer given.

Again, my TWO Questions:
1. So, is Abdullah bin Salam a prophet of Allah or Mohammed?
It seems every prophet before Mohammed knew the answer except Mohammed until Jibril told him!
2. How come Mohammed was a prophet but he didn't know the answer till Abdullah bin Salam asked him?

That bin Salam understood the hypocritical behaviour of his people?

You also are far from aware that in
Talmud – Niddah 31a (Babylonian Talmud):
If the woman emits seed first, she will give birth to a male. If the man emits seed first, she will give birth to a female.

This version inverts the genders compared to the hadith.

But it still links order of climax/ejaculation to child’s sex.

It’s unfortunate that there seems to be a misunderstanding regarding the preservation of the Qur’an. Allow me to clarify the matter:

1. Preservation Does Not Mean Every Revelation Was Included

The presence of abrogation or references to lifted verses does not compromise the perfection of the Quran’s preservation. Rather, it affirms that the Qur’an was preserved exactly as Allah intended through divine selection of what should remain recited and recorded, and what was to be lifted. The Prophet pbuh personally oversaw this process, instructing where each verse belonged.

It’s important to distinguish between different forms of revelation:

Qur’an (recited revelation )– Recited as scripture.
Hadith Qudsi – Sacred but not part of the Qur’an.
Abrogated Verses – Once revealed, then lifted.

The Prophet pbuh received many revelations, but not all were meant for permanent inclusion in the Qur’an. As Imām al-Qarāfī noted in al-Furūq, preservation was never about including every revealed word, but preserving what Allah intended to endure.

2. Abrogation Was Part of the Revelation Process. As Allah says:
We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth one better than it or similar to it.
(Surah al-Baqarah 2:106)

When companions like Zayd ibn Thābit or Aʾishah mention certain verses that were once recited, they are not implying anything was lost rather, they’re affirming that some verses were revealed and then divinely lifted.

3. The Prophet pbuh personally supervised the Compilation as he

* Called scribes to write specific verses,
* Arranged them in precise order,
* Instructed that certain revelations not be recorded as Qur’an due to abrogation.

Thus, what remained in the Qur’an was only what the Prophet pbuh affirmed and this is the essence of true preservation.

Furthermore, the compilation of the Qur’an under Caliph Uthman was done with the full consensus of the companions. None of them, including those who narrated abrogated or lifted verses, ever claimed the Qur’an was incomplete. Even scholars from the Ahl al-Bayt affirmed its authenticity.

Imam al-Baqir: No one can claim he possesses more of the Qur’an than what is in the muṣḥaf.

Imām Jaʿfar al-Ṣādiq: The Qur’an is one, revealed by One, and confirmed by the Prophet.

The Qur’an we have today is complete not because it includes every word ever revealed, but because it includes everything Allah *willed* to remain. This view is upheld by both Sunni and Shi’a scholars, including Tusi, Tabrisi, al-Suyuti, and Fakhr al-Din al-Razi.

It's sad you are unable to comprehend and accept that:

1. The presence of abrogation and reports of lifted verses does not mean the Qur'an wasn't perfectly preserved. It affirms that the preservation was carried out exactly as Allah intended i.e with divine selection of what should remain recited and recorded, and what should not. The Prophet pbuh himself instructed what verses should go where.

Preservation ≠ (doesn't equal) Inclusion of Every Revelation

Revelation comes in many forms:

Qur’an (mutluww)

Hadith Qudsi

Abrogated verses (once recited, then lifted)

The Prophet pbuh received much revelation, but not all of it was meant for eternal recitation.
Imām al-Qarāfī, al-Furūq

2. 2. Abrogation Was a Part of the Revelation Process
“We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth one better than it or similar to it.”
(Surah al-Baqarah 2:106)

So when Zayd ibn Thābit or Aʾishah mention missing verses, they are not saying “we lost it,” but rather:
“It was once revealed, then Allah lifted it.”

3. 3. The Prophet pbuh personally Supervised What Went into the Qur’an.
He would:
Call scribes to write specific verses,
Arrange them in specific order,
Tell companions not to write or recite some things as Qur’an (because they had been abrogated).

This means that only what the Prophet pbuh confirmed as Qur'an remains. That is preservation.


The mushaf of ʿUthman was compiled with consensus of the Companions.

No companion said: This Qur’an is incomplete.

Even those who reported lifted verses (like Zayd and Abu Musa) were among those who affirmed the authenticity of the final mushaf.

Also;
The suspicion raised about the integrity of the codex of the Qur’an was dropped.”
– Study Quran commentary on Shiʿi exegesis

Imām al-Bāqir: No one can claim he has with him more of the Qur’an than what is in the muṣḥaf.

Imām Jaʿfar al-Ṣādiq: The Qur'an is one, revealed by One, and confirmed by the Prophet

The Qur’an today is complete, not because every revealed word remains, but because:

Everything Allah willed to remain has remained.

The Ahl al-Bayt and Ṣaḥābah never doubted the preserved core.

Scholars from both Sunni and Shi’a traditions Ṭūsī, Ṭabrisī, al-Suyūṭī, Fakhr al-Dīn al-Rāzī affirm the integrity of the Qur’ān’s preservation.

TenQ:
TWO Questions:
1. So, is Abdullah bin Salam a prophet of Allah or Mohammed?

It seems every prophet before Mohammed knew the answer except Mohammed until Jibril told him!
2. How come Mohammed was a prophet but he didn't know the answer till Abdullah bin Salam asked him?

Why would you think question 1.

2. Please enlighten me about other prophets being asked this question and their answers

honesttalk21:
Why bother with this guy. I have addressed his incorrect perception and misconceptions of evidence for. The Quran is well preserved as it was initially transmitted.

He is trying to water down the reality of his error

Yes I agree with you.

You clearly showed him that

1. Jam‘ al-Qur’an refers to both the memorization and the written compilation of the Quran.

2. The Prophet pbuh had scribes who recorded verses during his lifetime.

3. Abū Bakr’s team followed strict guidelines, requiring written proof and two witnesses for verification.

4. ʿUthmān focused on standardizing the dialect, not altering the content.

5. The Qur’an has been preserved through widespread memorization and manuscripts, with no changes to its doctrine.

6. There are no lost surahs, no additions, and no editing councils involved.


No other scripture boasts this level of preservation. Let’s be real about the evidence.

TenQ:
We can come back to this later.

So, Tell me sir,
What is wrong IN this hadith about Mohammed's answer and can this hadith show that Mohammed was speaking the truth about Jibril or not?

I don't see anything wrong with the hadith.

The truth was spoken about Jibril

TenQ:
According to him and the hadith, `Abdullah bin Salam accepted Islam.

Has it come to your view that `Abdullah bin Salam could be the greatest liar amongst to Jews?
I believe you've heard of deep cover spies before!
LOL!

He said: ask them about me before they know about my conversion to Islam!

Even though, this is not the issue at stake, Can you please answer this YES or NO question
When`Abdullah bin Salam became a Muslim, did he cease being a Jew?


Then we can go back to the hadith

So, Tell me sir,
What is wrong IN this hadith about Mohammed's answer and can this hadith show that Mohammed was speaking the truth about Jibril or not?

The statement about Jews that they are a people of falsehood, is more about a specific situation than a blanket statement about all Jews in Islam.
In Islamic teachings, there’s a deeper understanding that recognizes the diversity among Jewish communities. Some individuals who betrayed the trust during the time of the Prophet Muhammad in Medina were rightly criticized for their actions, while others were acknowledged for their honesty and integrity

TenQ:
Hello my friend.
It's a long time.

You are wondering that what is the trick in the hadith I just posted!? `Abdullah bin Salam gave the trick question not me!

My claim with the hadith is that there is no Jibril anywhere and every claim about Jibril is certainly fraudulent!

Very well and not unexpected from you.

Whoever is an enemy to Allah, His angels, His messengers, and Jibrīl and Mīkāl, then verily, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers."
Surah al-Baqarah 2:98


You know Abdullah bin Salam accepted Islam

TenQ:
This is what I am stating!

It is amazing that as a Muslim, you did NOT see the problem with the hadith. The question was a trick question that both Mohammed and your Islamic scholars and then you have fallen for

Long time troublesome Tenq.

What is the trick?

TenQ:
I always show you proofs from your Islamic literatures.

Denying the truth is your nature: it's not a surprise!
Burying your head in the sand doesn't change then truth!

Explore2xmore:
Audacity of a liar TENQ to talk about truth.

Do you deny your lies that hadith contradict each other or is it one another?
Once caught you shifted to hadith contradicting the Quran even despite your ability inability to understand either the hadith or Quran.

No more time for clowns like you

Your proof of misplaced, misconstrued interpretation an understanding.

TenQ:
If you have a question, open a thread and I promise to join you.

Truth with Knowledge is the only weapon against Islam

Audacity of a liar TENQ to talk about truth.

Do you deny your lies that hadith contradict each other or is it one another?
Once caught you shifted to hadith contradicting the Quran even despite your ability to understand either the hadith or Quran.

No more time for clowns like you

TenQ:
Stop crying!

Consoling yourself or this is some sort of psychological psychiatric compensation?

Matthew 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.

Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God

Luke 18:25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.

Please explain if the Camel actually goes through the eye of a needle.

Will you understand a metaphorical statement like I will rather take out my 2 kidneys than drink poisoned wine?

[quote author=TenQ post=133849616][/quote]The clown has lost control again.

TenQ:
Since you have nothing else to say by the gross conflict of directions between Allah and your prophet, you can call it a day.

You remind me of Hamas, after beating them blue-black, they will come out shouting that they won the fight!
SMH!

The final kick of the dying donkey?

A LOW DOWN DIRTY SHAME.

You say the hadiths of different scholars contradict then I ask you to show this.

You then rephrase and contradict yourself that the Quran and hadiths contradict each other without understanding what the hadith means.

Just as the proud peacock you cannot ask for the explanation as you rather stick to your faulty prejudice of Islamophobia that suits your condescending self.

Read Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25) and Luke 18:25 and probably you can get a hint.

How the joke Tenq the clown contradicts himself

TenQ:
I am just showing you that Islam is a chronic collections of contradictions.


How does one need explanations from scholars for things that are clearly presented by other scholars?

Are people like Bukhari and Muslim not scholars?

And Quickly went to:

TenQ:
The contradiction is between the Qur'an and the Hadiths.

[/quote]In the first place is the Quran a recitation composed by scholars or the hadith?

Furthermore he doesn't understand the hadith by scholars but quickly says they contradict the Quran.

Simply too slow on the uptake