₦airaland Forum

The key question is what actual difference the text establishes between the 144,000 and the great crowd. Revelation 7 presents two images, but it never explicitly states that they are two separate classes of believers with different eternal destinies. That conclusion is inferred rather than directly stated. Given Revelation's highly symbolic nature, many scholars understand the 144,000 and the great crowd as different portrayals of the same redeemed community rather than two distinct groups.
The existence of two visions, therefore, does not by itself settle the issue. Revelation frequently uses complementary imagery to describe a single reality from different perspectives, most notably the Lion and the Lamb in chapter 5. The real question is how Revelation's symbolic framework functions, and that remains open to interpretation. As for the Muhammad pbuh reference, it does not address that hermeneutical question and adds little to the argument itself.

MaxInDHouse:
The figure 144,000 occurred twice in the Bible book of Revelation.
@ Revelation 7:5-8 the number is once again repeated and then John wrote:

After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-10

If it's the complete people of God then how come another crowd of people that can't be numbered appears later?🙂

Guy this is the Bible not your religious book in your religion the number Muhammad told you is 124,000 !🙂

I understand the argument regarding Eusebius, and a 209-year chain of transmission is a strong case for preserving knowledge of authorship and general provenance however my point is narrower. Establishing that Luke wrote Acts is not the same as establishing the evidential status of every event Luke records. The question is not whether early Christians knew Luke's sources, but whether a visionary experience relayed through witnesses and later narrated by Luke should be evaluated differently from ordinary historical reporting. Authorship and epistemic reliability are related issues, but they are not identical.
On Cornelius, your distinction between acceptability and salvation is clear. However, Acts 10 still raises a difficulty for a strictly bounded reception model. God not only recognized Cornelius before Peter arrived; the Holy Spirit fell on him and his household before baptism, before formal incorporation, and before Peter finished speaking. If reception itself can occur prior to the formal mechanism, then Acts 10 appears to show God acting beyond the institutional sequence rather than exclusively through it. The chapter seems to present the mechanism as affirming what God had already done, not as the sole channel through which reception became possible.

FxMasterz:
Eusebus can be trusted for many reasons apart from the fact that he quoted from verifiable sources. He was also in the direct line of the generation of disciples. It seems you don't understand what that means. That means the information from the first disciple were reliably passed down to him. The moment you realize that all the first century Christians know who wrote what, and how the Who gathered his information, you'll start getting it. First century believers knew Luke wrote books, and they knew his medium of data collection and validation. Eusebus was not so far away for such information to have been lost on him. Many in Eusebus' day have the same information he had. And the fact that Luke heard Peter was not a matter of debate in the 300s. Thousands of years later, it may look debatable. But in 300AD, this was common knowledge. You cannot expect that in less than 209yrs, the knowledge of how Luke wrote his books would have been lost.

You don't understand what the presence of God means. You need to understand that before you can understand what Cornelius got before and after Peter. Before Peter, Cornelius had what all men now have - acceptability. That is a qualification to be saved. As far as salvation is, everyone is qualified TO RECEIVE salvation. That's what Cornelius had before Peter. After meeting Peter, he received salvation. Today, everyone is qualified but not everyone is receiving.

The comment about Muslims does not advance the argument and risks distracting from the main issue. These interpretive questions stand or fall on their own merits, regardless of anyone’s religious background.

The 144,000 interpretation is a Jehovah’s Witness doctrinal position, but it is not the only plausible reading of Revelation 14. Apocalyptic literature frequently uses numbers symbolically, and many scholars understand the 144,000 as representing the complete people of God rather than a literal, limited ruling class. Likewise, the two tier destination framework drawn from Matthew 5:5 and Psalm 37:29 goes beyond what those texts explicitly state. Both passages speak generally about inheritance and blessing, not a formal division of believers into separate eternal categories.
On transmission, 1 Thessalonians and Revelation come to us through the same historical process that has been questioned regarding Luke–Acts. If that process is considered reliable when supporting one position, the same standard should apply when evaluating another. The methodology should remain consistent regardless of the conclusion.

MaxInDHouse:
The first set of Christians are the ones to rule with Christ so anyone who joins the disciples of Christ in the first century is most likely to be part of the ruling team.

This is what the Bible says:

Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. Revelation 14:1

The selection of Christ's corulers is to be taken from the first set of Christians so the 144,000 must be selected before the rest follows them. This first set will be taken to heaven with Jesus (the lamb of God) John 14:1-3; 1Thessalonians 4:16-17

And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. Reba 14:6

The remaining Christians are uncountable disciples of Christ but their own destination is planet earth! Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:29; Surah 21:105

So don't think this is something any of your Muslim people can understand!🙂

The statement what your religion taught you cuts both ways and if at all it's due to bias. We are discussing to properly interpret without these limitations. The JW interpretive framework is itself a tradition transmitted through an institution, subject to the same transmission questions you dismissed earlier.
Nothing you have written here changes the textual sequence. Cornelius was accepted by God before Peter arrived, before preaching, before baptism. Acts 10:34-35 establishes that directly. The co-rulership passages you cite address a separate question entirely and do not disturb that prior divine recognition.
The trajectory from exclusivity to universal access is not my life view it is the trajectory your own cited passages describe.

MaxInDHouse:
Obviously you aren't getting the message because of what your religion taught you.

Read this again for clarification:

Neither God nor Jesus said only Jews will have everlasting life o!

The redeemer from God (Christ) will be born among a race {Isaiah 9:6} and that race are those who have known all the things associated with the Christ and his origin that is what brings the Jews into the picture {John 4:22} whereas they are not the only descendants of Jacob but they knew all the prophets from Moses until John the baptist while Samaritans on the other hand only accepted Moses as the prophet of God that is why the Christ will use Jews as his disciples to reach out to other nations. Zechariah 8:23

What will be their benefit for being his disciples?

God will only choose among them those to rule with Christ! Matthew 19:27-30

But the Jewish nation declined God's offer {Matthew 23:37-38} that's why the selection of Christ's corulers was extended to other nations {Matthew 21:43} so that individuals from different nations throughout the world could become part of corulers with the Christ! Matthew 8:11

This is the arrangement Jesus stick to that is why he first told them to go and call only Jews as his disciples! Matthew 10:6

You mark particular with Eusebus being a third generation disciple. What does this exactly mean? He saw Jesus and by your nomenclature the 1st generation disciples which I believe consists the original 12 from Peter to Judas?
Don't you see that the third generation discipleship strengthens his reliability as a church historian but does not resolve the specific transmission problem being pressed, which is Luke reporting a trance-state vision experienced by Peter decades earlier. Eusebius's trustworthiness concerns church history broadly. The epistemological question about visionary experience transmitted orally across decades remains a separate category that his credentials do not close.
On the acceptance versus salvation distinction, if acceptance means access to God's presence without ceremonial barrier, and salvation means inner transformation through faith, then Acts 10:34-35 is addressing the former while the Cornelius baptism episode addresses the latter. That is quite probable. The question it raises however is significant. If acceptance is universal and prior, and salvation is subsequent and conditional on faith in Christ, then Acts 10:34-35 establishes something genuinely independent of the salvation mechanism. God's prior recognition of Cornelius was real and operative before the salvation event occurred. That prior recognition cannot then be retroactively collapsed into the salvation framework without erasing what the text explicitly distinguishes. The distinction you are drawing actually reinforces the point about God acting independently of formal human inclusion rather than undermining it.

FxMasterz:
You're not getting it. Apart from the fact that Eusebus quoted verifiable sources, he was also a 3rd generation disciple. All scholars trust his writings because of the boxes he ticked.

You're also mixing things up about Cornelius. Acceptance is different from salvation. The vision shows all men are accepted. Acts 10:34-35 shows Cornelius is accepted. We gain that acceptance because we no longer need to be ceremonially clean before we can get closer to God. Salvation is a different thing entirely. It's the rebirth of the inner man which happens through faith in Christ alone.

You make particular with Eusebus being a third generation disciple. What does this exactly mean? He saw Jesus and by your nomenclature the 1st generation disciples which I believe consists the original 12 from Peter to Judas?
Don't you see that the third generation discipleship strengthens his reliability as a church historian but does not resolve the specific transmission problem being pressed, which is Luke reporting a trance-state vision experienced by Peter decades earlier. Eusebius's trustworthiness concerns church history broadly. The epistemological question about visionary experience transmitted orally across decades remains a separate category that his credentials do not close.
On the acceptance versus salvation distinction, if acceptance means access to God's presence without ceremonial barrier, and salvation means inner transformation through faith, then Acts 10:34-35 is addressing the former while the Cornelius baptism episode addresses the latter. That is quite probable. The question it raises however is significant. If acceptance is universal and prior, and salvation is subsequent and conditional on faith in Christ, then Acts 10:34-35 establishes something genuinely independent of the salvation mechanism. God's prior recognition of Cornelius was real and operative before the salvation event occurred. That prior recognition cannot then be retroactively collapsed into the salvation framework without erasing what the text explicitly distinguishes. The distinction you are drawing actually reinforces the point about God acting independently of formal human inclusion rather than undermining it.

FxMasterz:
You're not getting it. Apart from the fact that Eusebus quoted verifiable sources, he was also a 3rd generation disciple. All scholars trust his writings because of the boxes he ticked.

You're also mixing things up about Cornelius. Acceptance is different from salvation. The vision shows all men are accepted. Acts 10:34-35 shows Cornelius is accepted. We gain that acceptance because we no longer need to be ceremonially clean before we can get closer to God. Salvation is a different thing entirely. It's the rebirth of the inner man which happens through faith in Christ alone.

Don't you see that the transmission argument proves too much if applied selectively. If Eusebius is defended on the basis of ordinary historical transmission, then competing ancient sources cannot be dismissed by a different standard. The methodology has to remain consistent.
On Acts 10, the sequence matters. Peter declares God’s impartiality and Cornelius’s acceptability in verses 34–35 before the gospel proclamation and before baptism. The text presents prior divine recognition first, then fuller incorporation through the word and Spirit afterward.
That distinction weakens the exclusivist reading being argued. If baptism and the preached word mark covenant incorporation, then Acts 10:34–35 is still affirming that Cornelius already stood in genuine favor with God beforehand. The chapter is therefore not about moving from total exclusion to acceptance, but from prior acceptance into formal inclusion within the covenant community. Does God rely on mankind's formal inclusion?

FxMasterz:
Do you know the weakness in that type of thinking? Everything we hold as knowledge today was transfered. No witness of the original sources. Socrates, Aristotle , Plato, etc all have resources attributed to them but none of those resources have any affirmation that they are indeed the sources, and there's no witness of them who passed down their said knowledge. The value of a writer does not diminish with relation to his or her proximity or distance to the actual events. Infact, a distant writer may offer more value than a contemporary if the contemporary held unverified views while the distant writer copied from verified sources.

Eusebus did not just jump into writing off his head. He had links, and scholars agree that he is one of the most trustworthy sources of Church history. That's majorly because he doesn't write without quoting the verifiable sources of his day.

FxMasterz:
Cornelius himself told Peter that he was asked to send for him so that he can "hear words whereby you and your house shall be saved". What words Peter spoke to Cornelius were the basis of his spiritual acceptance. The claim of exclusive salvation was therefore satisfied for Cornelius in this very chapter and not elsewhere. Since the very issue of his salvation is the main focus of Acts 10; if the claim has been satisfied elsewhere, Acts 10 in it's entirety would have been unnecessary.

Moral acceptance means everyone can hear the Word. Spiritual acceptance means, anyone who applies the Word can be saved. Cornelius applied the Word by getting baptized both in water and in the Spirit.

Zechariah 8:23 describes nations approaching God through Jewish mediation but it's a framework Acts 10 dismantles. Cornelius was accepted by God before Peter arrived (Acts 10:34–35). Matthew 10:6 was temporary and later superseded by Matthew 28:19. Quoting the restriction without the commission to all nations is incomplete.
John 1:11–12 makes faith, not ethnicity, the basis of belonging, while Matthew 22 concerns response to invitation, not permanent ethnic privilege. Hope this hasn't been your life view. The trajectory of these passages moves from exclusivity to universal access, not the reverse.

MaxInDHouse:
According to God's word the Jews were chosen to spread the Good News of God's kingdom so that people of all other nations can tap into it through the Jews:


This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ ” ‭Zechariah 8:23 NIV‬


That's the arrangement Jesus stick to {Matthew 5:17} and that is why he first restricted them to Jews only! Matthew 10:6

God will choose among only Jews to rule with Christ but when the Jews failed to make use of the opportunity given to them the invitation was blown open to people from other nations! John 1:11-12 compare to Matthew 22:1-14
🙂

Eusebius wrote roughly three centuries after the events, so his value is as a witness to tradition, not as an eyewitness himself. The issue is not authority, but what the surviving evidence can actually establish with confidence.

FxMasterz:
Are you saying you know better than Eusebus?

Acts 10 clearly abolishes ceremonial purity boundaries and replaces them with spiritual acceptability. Yet Acts 10:34–35 already declares Cornelius acceptable before any explicit Christological presentation. The claim of exclusive salvation through Christ is therefore imported from elsewhere, not derived from the passage itself, which resists replacing one exclusion system with another.

FxMasterz:
In summary, God has done away with ceremonial cleanliness. This was the Mosaic kind of cleanliness that made Jews consider themselves above others. God's standard has moved from ceremonial cleanliness to spiritual cleanliness. Spiritual cleanliness is the new standard. And ONLY JESUS PROVIDES THAT.

FxMasterz:
Luke actually wrote the Gospel and Acts by interviewing the disciples directly, especially Peter.

Luke never claims to have interviewed Peter; that tradition comes later from Eusebius. In Luke 1:1–4, he only refers generally to eyewitness sources. Even if Luke had spoken with Peter, the account would still be decades-removed oral transmission of a visionary experience, not documentary certainty.

Maxindhouse, the Matthew 10:6 to Matthew 28:19 trajectory you cite actually follows the point being made here rather than weakening it. Jesus himself demonstrably shifted the scope of proclamation from Jewish exclusivity to universal reach. That progressive development in divine instruction is precisely the framework within which Acts 10 sits. Concerning Matthew 16:18-19 and apostolic authority, the text establishes Peter's role within the first century apostolic community. What it does not establish is any subsequent organization's claim to have inherited that binding authority.That inheritance requires independent demonstration. Asserting it is not the same as proving it.
At the foundation everything here rests on. Luke wrote Acts approximately five decades after the events described, please tell this is not true. The Cornelius episode, including the trance-state vision and Peter's reported interpretation of it, reaches us entirely through Luke's narrative. Peter left no written account. There is no independent first century source that corroborates what Peter saw, what he understood, or what he said at Cornelius's house. What we have is one author, writing decades later, reporting avisionary experience that occurred i ln another man's mind during a trance. That is a significant distance between the event and the record of it.
This matters because Matthew 16:18-19, the binding authority passage you are building on, faces the same transmission question. The entire apostolic authority structure you are invoking rests on documents written years to decades after the events they describe, by authors who were not always present, filtered through communities with theological stakes in how those events were understood. The grey areas therefore sit beneath both sides of this conversation, not only mine. Before settling what Peter's vision means, it is reasonable to ask how confidently we know what Peter actually experienced, said, and understood.

MaxInDHouse:
Please count Jehovah's Witnesses out of such thing because Jesus wasn't talking about preaching for salvation in some instances for example @ Matthew 10:6 he specifically instructed his disciples not to preach to anyone except Jews only in fact he excluded Samaritans who were also Israelites in the message so there is a difference between preaching to gather Christ's future corulers {Matthew 10:6} and preaching for the salvation of obedient mankind. Matthew 28:19


Luke wrote all the information he was able to gather regarding how the apostles and elders in Jerusalem established Christianity so whoever is found opposing their stance is no longer a Christian because Jesus said regarding Peter and the other apostles:

"You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my congregation, and the gates of the Grave will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you may bind on earth will already be bound in the heavens, and whatever you may loosen on earth will already be loosened in the heavens.” Matthew 16:18-19

The death of An·a·niʹas and Sap·phiʹra occurred because they lied to that group (Apostles) that's why God's angel struck them instantly people in the first century began calling the group a cult after the death of that couple but then anyone disobeying the apostles on any settled matter will be excommunicated {Romans 16:17; 2John 10-11} so in the first century the group known as Christians have the same line of thought {John 17:22; 1Corinthans 1:10} and whoever doesn't agree with the decision made by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem can't question their authority just as we have among Jehovah's Witnesses today such ones can go ahead and form their own religion but no member of Jehovah's Witnesses will count such a person or his religion as part of our faith! 1John 2:19
So it's these anonymous religionists claiming Christians that are confused regarding God's word not JWs!

MaxInDHouse:
What is your point?

We will arrive at it together; hopefully. We appear in fair level of agreement regarding the non exclusivity of the Jews and or Israelites but there are still grey areas regarding the authenticity of the vision isn't it?

Note that Luke wrote Acts decades after the events, raising standard source and transmission questions primarily for reference to a vision in a trance-state experience reported secondhand through a narrator, not direct prophetic utterance
The Acts 15 council's continued deliberation suggests even contemporaries did not treat the Cornelius episode as settling all questions definitively

Is it the case that the bulk of Acts 10 were a vision not certainly physically real event?
What precisely did God mean by what I have made clean, do not call common?
Peter himself says in Acts 10:28 that God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean but exactly how is a concern for me. He didn't talk about food or any dietary categories.
Clarification about people is made in Acts 10:34-35 which confirms the theological conclusion he drew that God shows no partiality, and in every nation the person who fears Him and acts rightly is acceptable to Him. Questions regarding Jews, Israel and the rest of the world get raised here.
The interpreter does not need to work hard as the text's own protagonist provides the exegesis. The cultural and historical context reinforces this reading. Jewish exclusivity in early gospel proclamation was not merely a preference but a deeply held theological conviction, gentiles were categorically outside the covenant, ritually impure, their households forbidden territory for observant Jews. Luke 7:6 shows this was a live social reality even before Cornelius. The vision's use of food imagery was not incidental; it deployed categories Peter already understood viscerally to communicate something he would otherwise have resisted entirely.
That the interpretation held beyond this single episode is confirmed by Acts 15, where Peter uses the Cornelius precedent explicitly to argue against imposing the Mosaic yoke on gentile believers. The vision was not a private mystical experience it became foundational ecclesiological precedent.
However, one question the text leaves genuinely open is how does one establish with certainty, in any subsequent case, whom God has declared clean? At Cornelius's house the confirmation was dramatic and unambiguous, the Spirit fell visibly before any human authorization. Peter could not argue against what he was witnessing. But that mechanism was a unique unrepeatable event, not a transferable procedure. Acts 15 itself still required council deliberation despite the Cornelius precedent, which tells you the early church did not treat Acts 10 as having resolved all future boundary questions automatically.
The text establishes that God determines cleanness unilaterally. It does not provide any human institution the authority to certify that determination in subsequent cases with equivalent certainty. The conclusions in another contribution that Acts 10 preemptively settles the question against later revelatory claims is a conclusion the text does not support and does not need to support. The passage makes a strong enough case on its own terms without being conscripted into arguments external to its context.

Many people read the bible and often get diverse interpretation and understanding. Is the proper message sent therein adequately understood and appreciated for beneficial use?
Let's take a few if we can. Acts 10:15:
And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

What does this verse really mean?

I appreciate all thoughts and comments and particularly invite
@Sirtee15
@Gabrielshow24
@Gabrielshow26
@Tenq
@Antiislam
@Fxmasterz
@BlackfireX
@Riggtchannel
@doffman
@honesttalk21
@Sagenaija
@kobojunkie
@Lordreed
@Deepsight
@Budaatum
@ikeepgoing
@Antlisiam
@JimRohn all all other nairaland members
@AntiChistian

Fortunately you are not the one to say. You blame Muslims and Islam for all sorts without having any details? Tell me what you know delusion means?

BlackfireX:
i was told you were delusional

but i didnt know it was in balablu bulaba

The standard being proposed collapses once applied consistently. The claim in your post is that Muhammad pbuh cannot be accepted as a prophet because nobody independently witnessed his encounter with Jibril. But that same standard destroys major prophetic claims across earlier traditions too.
Moses was alone at the burning bush. Isaiah’s throne vision was private. Ezekiel’s visions were private. Paul’s Damascus experience even has differing retellings in Acts about what companions actually saw or heard. Private foundational revelation is not uniquely Islamic, it is the norm in prophetic history. Sinai does not escape this either. Exodus 24 reaches modern readers through transmitted literary tradition, not living eyewitness verification. Critical scholars like Friedman and Baden identify the Sinai material as composite and redacted over time, not untouched courtroom-style testimony.
The Transfiguration argument has the same issue. The eyewitness claim in 2 Peter depends on Petrine authorship, yet scholars like Ehrman, Raymond Brown and Jerome Neyrey classify 2 Peter as pseudonymous. .The text claiming eyewitness authority is itself disputed. So the inconsistency becomes obvious:
Transmitted testimony is accepted for Sinai and the Transfiguration, but rejected for Muhammad pbuh before investigation even begins. That is not neutral methodology. It is selective skepticism.
Then look at what followed Muhammad pbuh’s experience. He publicly recited revelation for over 20 years under hostile scrutiny from people whose greatest cultural strength was mastery of Arabic language and rhetoric. They accused him of sorcery, poetry and fabrication, yet failed to produce a rival text despite the Quranic challenge being public and contemporaneous. The deeper point is unavoidable; nobody today directly witnesses Sinai, the Transfiguration, resurrection appearances, or Jibril. Every Abrahamic faith ultimately relies on transmitted testimony preserved through religious tradition.
So the disussionn cannot honestly be framed as “verified eyewitness religion” versus “unverified cave religion.” That distinction collapses immediately once identical standards are applied consistently.
At that point, the real historical discussion becomes comparative transmission. Which tradition shows earlier stabilization, stronger preservation mechanisms, narrower textual divergence and tighter transmission control when the same criteria are applied equally?
And that is a far more serious discussion than selective skepticism aimed in only one direction.

SIRTee15:
As we can see, u finally exposed your hidden agenda when u initially claimed your argument has nothing to with Islam.

To u and your fellow Muslims, your claim on early preservation and chain of narration falls apart if the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FIRST CHAIN OF NARRATION CANNOT BE ESTABLISHED. THE CHAIN OF NARRATION BETWEEN mormor AND ANGEL JIBRIL.

There's no independent attestation or any eye witness that can confirm mormor spoke to any angel. not his wives or his companions could confirm this encounter despite being with him for 27 years of your prophet speaking to angel jibril.

Every prophet sent by God with a new or transformative message had independent eye witness that attested to the supernatural encounter btw God and the prophet.

70 leaders of Israel witnessed Moses meeting with God on mount Sinai.
exodus 24
9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Peter confirmed they witnessed the Father speaking to Jesus during the transfiguration.
2 Peter
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

Mormor cannot be said to be a prophet along the line of ancient prophets if he had no eye witness to validate his supernatural claim. For all we know, it could be devised stories, dreams, trance or hallucinations. Unless we have someone telling us these encounters were true, then the validity of Islvm as a true religion falls apart. Even the Quran mormor brought didn't state any angel spoke to mormor.

The standard being proposed collapses once applied consistently. The claim in your post is that Muhammad pbuh cannot be accepted as a prophet because nobody independently witnessed his encounter with Jibril. But that same standard destroys major prophetic claims across earlier traditions too.
Moses was alone at the burning bush. Isaiah’s throne vision was private. Ezekiel’s visions were private. Paul’s Damascus experience even has differing retellings in Acts about what companions actually saw or heard. Private foundational revelation is not uniquely Islamic, it is the norm in prophetic history. Sinai does not escape this either. Exodus 24 reaches modern readers through transmitted literary tradition, not living eyewitness verification. Critical scholars like Friedman and Baden identify the Sinai material as composite and redacted over time, not untouched courtroom-style testimony.
The Transfiguration argument has the same issue. The eyewitness claim in 2 Peter depends on Petrine authorship, yet scholars like Ehrman, Raymond Brown and Jerome Neyrey classify 2 Peter as pseudonymous. .The text claiming eyewitness authority is itself disputed. So the inconsistency becomes obvious:
Transmitted testimony is accepted for Sinai and the Transfiguration, but rejected for Muhammad pbuh before investigation even begins. That is not neutral methodology. It is selective skepticism.
Then look at what followed Muhammad pbuh’s experience. He publicly recited revelation for over 20 years under hostile scrutiny from people whose greatest cultural strength was mastery of Arabic language and rhetoric. They accused him of sorcery, poetry and fabrication, yet failed to produce a rival text despite the Quranic challenge being public and contemporaneous. The deeper point is unavoidable; nobody today directly witnesses Sinai, the Transfiguration, resurrection appearances, or Jibril. Every Abrahamic faith ultimately relies on transmitted testimony preserved through religious tradition.
So the disussionn cannot honestly be framed as “verified eyewitness religion” versus “color=#990000]unverified cave religion.[[/color]” That distinction collapses immediately once identical standards are applied consistently.
At that point, the real historical discussion becomes comparative transmission. Which tradition shows earlier stabilization, stronger preservation mechanisms, narrower textual divergence and tighter transmission control when the same criteria are applied equally?
And that is a far more serious discussion than selective skepticism aimed in only one direction.

SIRTee15:
As we can see, u finally exposed your hidden agenda when u initially claimed your argument has nothing to with Islam.

To u and your fellow Muslims, your claim on early preservation and chain of narration falls apart if the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FIRST CHAIN OF NARRATION CANNOT BE ESTABLISHED. THE CHAIN OF NARRATION BETWEEN mormor AND ANGEL JIBRIL.

There's no independent attestation or any eye witness that can confirm mormor spoke to any angel. not his wives or his companions could confirm this encounter despite being with him for 27 years of your prophet speaking to angel jibril.

Every prophet sent by God with a new or transformative message had independent eye witness that attested to the supernatural encounter btw God and the prophet.

70 leaders of Israel witnessed Moses meeting with God on mount Sinai.
exodus 24
9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Peter confirmed they witnessed the Father speaking to Jesus during the transfiguration.
2 Peter
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

Mormor cannot be said to be a prophet along the line of ancient prophets if he had no eye witness to validate his supernatural claim. For all we know, it could be devised stories, dreams, trance or hallucinations. Unless we have someone telling us these encounters were true, then the validity of Islvm as a true religion falls apart. Even the Quran mormor brought didn't state any angel spoke to mormor.

When historians study ancient texts, they apply consistent criteria: authorship attribution, compositional history, canon formation, and transmission reliability. Applied evenhandedly across the Abrahamic scriptures, those criteria produce materially different results.
The New Testament faces the greatest cumulative challenges. The Gospels are formally anonymous the names attached to them derive from later ecclesiastical tradition, not from the texts themselves. The dominant model in Synoptic scholarship, Markan priority, establishes literary dependence among the Synoptics, meaning the four Gospel accounts are not fully independent eyewitness narratives in the way popular apologetics frequently claims. Canon formation extended over several centuries with significant regional variation, and disputes over individual books continued well into the fourth century. The manuscript tradition is the most pluriform of the three Abrahamic corpora. Scholars including Bart Ehrman and Eldon Epp have documented harmonization, theological smoothing, and scribal modification across manuscript families. The text is not unrecoverable, but it is reconstructed through comparative analysis of divergent manuscript traditions rather than preserved through a singular controlled transmission line. Those are meaningfully different things.
The Hebrew Bible presents a stronger initial structure. Its internal transmission narrative is coherent one named mediator, one foundational national event, one law given to one people. The Masoretic tradition eventually achieved extraordinarily disciplined scribal regularization. But the tradition carries complications that honest analysis cannot set aside. The Dead Sea Scrolls permanently altered scholarly understanding of Second Temple textuality. Emanuel Tov's foundational work demonstrated the coexistence of proto-Masoretic, proto-Septuagintal, proto-Samaritan and mixed textual forms prior to standardization. The Masoretic Text represents a later stage of stabilization, not the endpoint of a singular unbroken transmission. Internal biblical testimony compounds this further. Jeremiah 8:8 records concerns about scribal mediation from within the tradition's own pages. The rediscovery narrative in 2 Kings 22 is treated by most critical scholars as evidence of late Deuteronomistic redaction rather than faithful recovery of an ancient original.
One tradition presents a structurally different profile. Research by François Déroche, Nicolai Sinai, Fred Donner and Harald Motzki consistently describes comparatively early stabilization of the consonantal text within the first Islamic century; a compressed chronological horizon relative to the originating prophetic period. Canonical reading traditions and early manuscript phenomena confirm that variation exists. But the range of divergence is assessed in comparative scholarship as substantially narrower than that observed in the New Testament manuscript tradition or in the pre-Masoretic textual plurality of the Hebrew Bible. Preservation was reinforced through parallel written codification and oral transmission operating independently of each other, a structural redundancy neither of the other two traditions possesses in the same form.
Several qualifications apply and they matter. Transmission integrity and divine origin are separate categories. Historical criticism cannot adjudicate revelation. A text may be well preserved yet false, or theologically meaningful independent of textual uniformity. No serious historian conflates preservation with truth.
But the narrower historical question is answerable. Which Abrahamic scripture presents the strongest documented profile of source proximity, canon stabilization, transmission control and manuscript consistency when identical criteria are applied across all three traditions without special pleading? The comparative scholarly literature points consistently in one direction. And the distance between the strongest and weakest cases is not a matter of degree. It is a matter of kind.

How does this show Qutham = Muhammad? Seems you actually can't prove that.

BlackfireX:
Now let me lecture you---- Muhammad is a title not a name----- a divine title ---- that means--- One worthy of praise


Guess who were using that title and whom it was used for?

I will create a thread for it--- after my debate with baba shuaib from Ghana.

Now clap for me.

Now get on with it

What is the remarkable good thing about Qutham a.k.a Muhammad that is so remarkable and good----just 1?

Don't panic

Interesting your now entering into nip in the bud bringing us to the fourth thread page? In any case let’s stay precise about the claim being made. First, bringing Islam into this is a deflection. The question on the table is NT divine authority. Whether Muhammad pbuh’s experience was genuine or not is a separate discussion and does nothing to answer the original point.
Second, the criteria you listed; embarrassment, dissimilarity, coherence, contextual credibility are historical filters used to identify plausible material within the Gospels. Their very existence assumes the texts cannot simply be accepted wholesale. They support critical evaluation, not automatic verification.
Third, and most importantly, citing Bart Ehrman cuts both ways. Ehrman argues that early Christians genuinely believed Jesus rose from the dead and was divine. But he is equally explicit that historical method cannot prove those beliefs were actually true. He draws a sharp line between the history of belief and the truth of the belief itself.
That distinction is the entire issue here.
So if the argument is that early Christians believed these things, there’s no disagreement. But if the claim is that theology itself is historically verified, then you’re moving beyond what historians like Ehrman say historical method can establish.
I’m simply holding the argument to the same distinction your own source makes.

SIRTee15:
I think I need to come in here to nip this in the bud.

I initially ignored u because ur earlier claim was that scholars don't find the gospel as reliable and historical.
tctrills already did a good job debunking that. So we let it rest.
There are different criteria scholars use validate historical claims. They are criteria of embarrassment, criteria of authenticity, criteria of dissimilarity, criteria of contextual credibility, criteria of coherence, and then the source of language in this case linkage btw what was spoken in Aramaic and what was written in koine Greek.

All scholars agree that the written gospel to a large extent meet this criteria thus have no reason to doubt historical reality stated in the Gospels.

The problem with Muslims is they believe the only way to validate historical claim is thru what they call chain of narrations which itself is problematic bocs it relies on authenticity of the narrators and their memories.

Besides the single most important historical chain of narration in Islam is missing. There's no historical evidence that Mormor spoke to an angel. If we cannot establish and independently verify Mormor actually spoke to an angel, then Islam as a religion is in serious trouble because the whole Islamic faith is based on one simple fact -Mormor spoke to an angel, A claim that cannot be historically verified.

Now what I will be doing is giving u historical evidence for the theology of Christianity because that's what u now asking for.

I will show u that academic scholars including Bart Erhman and any other academic bible scholars u can think of all agree there is historical evidence for the theology of Christianity.

U have been shouting bible scholars on this thread which shows u trust their works.
Now I will bring evidence that same academic scholars agree beyond any reasonably doubt that the theology of Christianity as we know it today is historical NOT made up out of thin air or conjured by some unknown people.

These are- divinity of Jesus, atonement by the blood of Jesus, physical ressurection of Jesus.

So what I will be doing next is bringing evidence supported by bible scholars like Bart Erhman to prove the theology of Christianity as we know it today is historical and actually linked back to Jesus Christ himself.

I sincerely hope u won't change mouth when I bring it.

Simply getting better understanding of your questions. Starting with clarity about your reference to Qutham as the prophet pbuh. Knowing this isn't mistaken will better position your other questions.

BlackfireX:
Jumping Jumping

I asked questions----you didn't answer

And you are dancing around



Tell me one good remarkable thing about Qutham a.k.a Muhammad?

Hey gotta disappoint you, I didn’t invent those criteria. Theologians and religious scholars have historically used them to assess prophetic legitimacy across traditions.
You asked for an example, and the Torah presents a strong case with a named prophet, public revelation at Sinai, documented miracles, and an entire nation framed as collective witness. The authority claim is grounded in something beyond the text merely asserting itself.
The Quran is another discussion entirely.
But the core issue remains unanswered; what external verification establishes New Testament divine authority beyond its own internal claims? Saying I didn’t create the criteria doesn’t solve the problem it just confirms the criteria exist, and the NT still has to meet them.

tctrills:
I am guessing it's you who decided that prophetic witness, preservation, miracle, public transmission, or direct authorization should be the s standard for divine truths right?

Please give me an example of a scripture that meets these your standards

Good. Then the categories must stay separate. Academic history asks whether the Gospels are credible ancient sources for reconstructing parts of early Christianity? By normal standards, they are. But historical credibility is not the same as divine authority.
Divine authority requires a verification standard. Scripture is not usually accepted as revelation only because it claims to be. There is normally some external basis such as prophetic witness, preservation, miracle, public transmission, or direct authorization.
So the key question is simple:
What external verification establishes the New Testament’s divine authority beyond its own internal claims?

tctrills:
9
Good, to the next step.
Now divine authority simply means authority from God right?
So what are the standards God set for to prove devine authority?
And do you have any other writing as an example of divine authority?
Why I brought up academic authority was because your argument was not solely about divine authority. It was a mix of both so I decided to clear one at a time

Like there's a particular response that satisfies you and gives you the impression I am calm. I am not uncalmed anyway.
Yes, by normal academic historical standards the Gospels qualify as credible ancient sources. That is not the dispute. But academic historical credibility is not the same as divine authority. Even your own framing admits those are separate questions requiring separate standards.
So the academic question is settled. The harder question comes next: what standard establishes divine authority itself, and who defines that standard without circular reasoning?

tctrills:
Calm down. I am only going one step at a time.
Let's first clear the academic question. If it meets the standard of a historic document them we will move on the the divine authority.
So I just need to know we are on the same page.
To determine it a work meets academic standards, we have to use the standards set by historians and to determine if it meets divine standards, we will use the standards set by the divine.

So let's do one at a time.

Again I ask,
According to the standards set by academic historians, does the Gospels meet the standards as an acceptable work of history?

The map analogy assumes the destination is already known. That is the very issue under discussion. Saying follow the true map already assumes which map is true.
The barking dogs analogy cuts both ways. Every religion calls competing claims noise and its own message truth. That shows conviction, not verification.
The criteria in Gospel of Mark 10 and Gospel of John 13 matter, but love, community, and belonging exist across many traditions. They describe sincere faith. They do not by themselves identify which tradition is ultimately true.
A map matters only if it matches reality. Examining whether it does is not distraction. It is the search itself.

MaxInDHouse:
If you are traveling to somewhere will you always stop to throw stones at every barking dog?
You need to have a focus that is what can help you now not all information being passed around.
If you have a focus then you will know exactly what you are looking for.

For instance if you are going to a place you've never been before but you have a map in your possession you should be able to know when you are getting closer to your destination as you keep noticing all the features along your way not what different individuals are saying.

Your destination should be the group that's worshiping the one true God and if any religion failed in that respect whatever they are saying should be considered as the barking of dogs.

Note that it's not all barking dogs that are enemies yet all dogs barks so if you are not careful you won't know the difference between a dog that's giving you a warning sign and the one that's barking at you out of fear or due to rage.

So you need to have a destination first.

For instance after Jesus has preached and taught his disciples they asked him what will be their gain for following him. Note that all religions teaches that it's in heaven that you will know if you are practicing the true religion but that is not what Jesus told his own disciples rather he said if they are doing things correctly each will make brothers and sisters for himself or herself in 100 folds {Mark 10:28-30} this means they will have families in the faith throughout the world and there will be love among them. John 13:34-35

If your religion doesn't have a focusing point like that then whatever people are saying will be your driving force. Ephesians 4:14

Hey it's your post. It shows the Gospels are accepted by historians as credible ancient sources describing a real first-century figure. That part is not controversial. But even your own AI drew a line between historical credibility and divine truth claims. It explicitly placed miracles, divine sonship, atonement, and resurrection outside what historical method can actually verify.
That distinction matters. A source can be historically valuable without being divinely authoritative. You’re affirming the first claim while quietly assuming the second even though your own entry conceded history alone cannot establish it. Now there is the issue. What can't be verified is derived from the NT.

tctrills:
It seems you are not even understanding my very simple question.
Let me try to ask in the most simple way possible.
According to the standards set by academic historians, does the Gospels meet the standards as an acceptable work of history?

Nothing you wrote addresses the question. Please answer so we can move forward, we are still going around in circles.

BlackfireX:
You sound like you are hungry or lack understanding?


Who answered me---- they brought conjectures that future exposes them .... check the topic there for yourself

Are you sure? Please show me how

MaxInDHouse:
This is what i've been saying, aimlessly arguing for no just reason so you will be going back and forth claiming what is presented is no evidence but benefits of these books you ignored whereas if you lived during the times British or Fulanis came with weapons to force these books on people you won't support whatever they established.

Well you ran away from this question:

You don't understand the multiple sources that prove Alexander beyond word of mouth? The numerous archeological findings?

tctrills:
I am not sure what you read but if it is what I sent, the Gospels meet the standards set by academia in evaluating ancient history. It's a pity you couldn't read that.

So unless you have created you own standards can we both agree that the Gospels meet the standards so we can move on with the next stage of the discussion?

tctrills:
We have been going round in circles so I presented the question to AI below are some of the results.

When historians compare the Gospels to the records of **Philip II of Macedon**, they are weighing two different types of historical evidence: **Manuscript Tradition** (the copies we have) vs. **Contemporary Attestation** (eyewitness accounts).

Both are accepted as describing real historical figures, but they meet different professional standards.

### 1. The Standard of "Real Historic Work"

In academia, "History" (*historia*) is a specific genre.

* **Philip II:** Meets the formal standard of Greek historiography. Writers like **Theopompus** and **Ephorus** wrote with the intent of recording political and military history. They cited sources, analyzed motives, and followed a chronological "cause-and-effect" structure.
* **The Gospels:** Fall into the genre of **Greco-Roman Biography** (*bios*).Their goal wasn't to provide a neutral political history of Judea, but to reveal the character and teaching of a single person.¹
* **The Verdict:** Historians treat the records of Philip as better for reconstructing **political events**, but they treat the Gospels as highly reliable for reconstructing the **social and religious atmosphere** of 1st-century Palestine.

---

### 2. Which has more Evidence?

The answer depends on whether you value the **quantity of copies** or the **closeness of the authors**.

#### **A. The Case for the Gospels (Quantity & Timing)**

The Gospels have a massive lead in terms of "Manuscript Evidence."

* **Earliest Fragments:** We have fragments of John ($P^{52}$) from within **30–50 years** of its writing.
* **Volume:** There are over **5,800** Greek manuscripts of the New Testament.
* **The "Gap":** The time between the events (c. 30 AD) and the first full biographies (c. 65–90 AD) is only **35 to 60 years**. This is considered a "heartbeat" in ancient history.

#### **B. The Case for Philip II (Eyewitnesses & Physical Evidence)**

While we have fewer books about Philip, the quality of the "links" is sometimes seen as stronger by secular historians.

* **Living Witnesses:** We know for a fact that **Theopompus** lived at Philip’s court. While his original books are lost, his eyewitness data is the "DNA" inside the later histories we do have.
* **Physical Proof:**This is where Philip wins decisively. We have the **Tomb of Philip II** at Vergina. We have his actual bones (showing a battle-scarred eye socket that matches historical accounts), his golden crown, and his armor.²
* **Epigraphy:** We have stone inscriptions from Philip's lifetime (treaties and decrees) that mention him by name.

---

### 3. Direct Comparison Table

| Feature | The Gospels (Jesus) | Records of Philip II |
| --- | --- | --- |
| **Best Primary Author** | Matthew (Apostle/Eyewitness) | Theopompus (Eyewitness) |
| **Earliest Biography** | ~35–40 years after death | Written during his lifetime |
| **Earliest Surviving Copy** | ~100–150 years after death | ~1,000+ years after death (medieval copies) |
| **Number of Manuscripts** | 5,800+ (Greek only) | Dozens to hundreds |
| **Archaeological Proof** | Locations (Pool of Siloam, etc.) | Actual Body, Armor, and Inscriptions |

---

### Summary: Which is "Better" Evidence?

If you are a **Manuscript Scholar**, you would say the **Gospels** have more evidence because the gap between the event and the oldest surviving physical book is much smaller, and the number of copies is overwhelming.

If you are an **Archaeologist or Political Historian**, you would say **Philip II** has more evidence because we have his physical remains and contemporary inscriptions that prove his existence and actions without relying solely on later religious copies.

**In the eyes of modern history, both are considered "demonstrably real."** No serious historian doubts the existence of Philip II, just as no serious historian doubts that Jesus of Nazareth was a real person who was executed in Roman Judea.

Since we have the physical tomb for Philip but only the "empty tomb" narrative for Jesus,[color=#990000]does the lack of physical remains for Jesus acknowledging an unresolved evidential problem⁵ his historical record feel less "proven" to you, or does the massive number of early manuscripts compensate for that?[/color]²

From the above, it's absolutely clear that the bible meets the standards set by historians for proving ancient text.


This again from AI

The Gospels meet the professional standards used by historians to establish ancient history, though they are treated with the same critical scrutiny as any other ancient text. In historical circles, "proving" something from the ancient world doesn't mean reaching 100% certainty, but rather establishing **historical probability**.

Historians use a specific "toolkit" to evaluate the Gospels. Here is how they measure up against those standards:

### 1. The Standard of Early Attestation

Historians prefer sources written closest to the events they describe.

* **The Standard:** For most ancient figures (like Caesar or Alexander), our best sources were written 100 to 400 years after their deaths.
* **The Gospels:** Mark was written roughly **35–40 years** after Jesus’ death, and John roughly **60 years** after. In the context of ancient history, this is considered an incredibly narrow gap. It means the accounts were circulating while eyewitnesses were still alive to correct or challenge them.

### 2. The Standard of Multiple Independent Sources

If multiple people from different places tell the same core story without "cheating," the story is likely true.

* **The Evidence:** Historians see at least three independent "streams" of tradition in the Gospels: the **Markan** tradition, the **"Q"** source (shared by Matthew and Luke), and the **Johannine** (John) tradition.
* **The Result:** When all three streams agree on core facts—such as Jesus being a teacher from Nazareth, having a reputation for miracles, and being crucified under Pontius Pilate—historians consider these facts **"historically certain."**

### 3. The "Criterion of Embarrassment"

This is one of the most important tools for a historian. It states that if a story contains details that are awkward or "bad for PR," it is highly likely to be true.

* **The Evidence:**
* The disciples are often portrayed as cowardly, slow-witted, and unfaithful.
* The first witnesses to the resurrection were women (whose testimony was not legally valid in 1st-century Jewish courts).


* **The Logic:** If the early Church was simply "making up" a legend to gain followers, they would have made the disciples look like heroes and the evidence look more legally "perfect."

---

### 4. Archaeological Consistency

A historical document is more credible if its "background noise" (geography, local customs, and politics) matches the physical evidence.

* **The Evidence:** The Gospels accurately reflect the complex political tension between the Roman governors and the Jewish Sanhedrin.
* **Specific Finds:** The discovery of the **"Pilate Stone"** in Caesarea (proving Pontius Pilate was a real "Prefect" and the **Caiaphas Ossuary** (the bone box of the High Priest) confirms that the characters in the Gospel narrative were real historical figures in the correct positions of power.

---

### 5. What Historians *Don't* "Prove"

While the Gospels meet the standards for proving the **history** of Jesus' life, historians differentiate between **historical events** and **theological claims**:

| Historians CAN Prove (Standard Met) | Historians CANNOT Prove (Outside the Scope) |
| --- | --- |
| Jesus was a real man from Nazareth. | Jesus was the Son of God. |
| He had a reputation for performing miracles. | The miracles were actually supernatural. |
| He was executed by the Romans. | His death atoned for the sins of the world⁴. |
|His followers *believed* they saw him alive. ³| The physical Resurrection itself. |

### Summary

If a historian were to reject the Gospels as "unreliable" simply because they were written 40 years late or because they have minor discrepancies, they would also have to reject almost everything we know about **Socrates, Tiberius Caesar, or Hannibal.**

By the standard "rules of the road" for ancient history, the Gospels are viewed as high-quality, early sources that provide a reliable window into the life and impact of a 1st-century Jewish man.

Do you think the religious nature of these books makes it harder for people to see them as "history," even when they meet the professional standards?

So unless you don't agree with historians and you have your own standards, you are wrong.

With the highlights of your post we have:

1. Your AI classification of the Gospels as theological biography, not neutral historical documentation

2. Physical archaeological evidence for Philips death remains but not Jesus thus winning.

3. The resurrection, crucifixion by Romans being a thing of belief with those who allegedly seeing him alive post crucifixion

4. The table shows historians CANNOT Prove:
Jesus was the Son of God
The miracles were supernatural
His death atoned for sins
The physical Resurrection itself

5. Acknowledgement of an unresolved evidential problem with the ending question

BlackfireX:
What is this one saying?

Check my conversation with you ... you have been incoherent and scared


Where is shahada in the Quran?
Who wrote the Quran?
Where is hijra of muslim refugees from mecca to medina?
One good remarkable thing about Qutham a.k.a Muhammad as a prophet?

Choose any of the topic

Do you understand English and the words coming out of my mouth?
Now don't panic

This isn't a platform to rehearse bits of a movie line besides I can only read what you type and can't hear you. Asking for proof on one of your questions doesn't necessitate going through nairaland archives. You are just grand standing in diversion. Specifically because others have given you responses you totally reject because of your fixation.
I don't know if you're seeking praise or just mischief.

The issue really is that we actually have fair capacity that we have failed to develop. In the past the step down transformer to 110V, our copper cables, converting bolts etc., the crude militant refiners should have been trained to develop better just there is the international crazy control in this sector.
We can do a lot but are ashamed of our own in a rapidly worsening dishonest environment wrongly justified.

Reference:
Totally agree with this.
There has to be a level of training before competition. Yes, competition produces sharpness but capacity must be livid inherent.

If we cannot build ourselves to 'do things', 'make things', 'develop things' and depend on foreign nations to do the basics for us, at best we will be made in their image.

I cannot say this enough.
China became China because they decided a long time ago to be the industrial capital of the world. Not by loans, not by foreign investment, not by creeping and crawling to every capital city of the world to beg, but by deliberate policies aimed at industrialization and a country backing them all the way as a culture.

Those of us who were privileged to see the birth of industry in China remembered how the machine tools we see today were built in shacks and backyard stalls amid squalor and poverty.

Today China is in space, China is the global leader in green tech (from solar to EV's). China is a global leader in semi conductors, and on and on. Everything from scratch.

Not saying. Nigeria should invent the wheel or to find the chicken that laid the first egg. But lasting and sustainable development cannot be imported.