[quote author=4everGod post=51697861][/quote] Really?? This study proves creation?? Plsss... There is actual evidence of evolution, fossils and the rest... U people claim the beauty of the world and stuff proves the awesomeness of God but the imperfections are not of God... For example, a bouncing baby boy= God is great, a baby with down syndrome or conjoined twins= ?...
And don't pretend u just don't want to answer, if you knew the answer u would say... I understand why you won't admit the inconsistencies of the Christian god, I also didn't admit it when I was a Christian

4everGod:


if tomorrow there is proof of God that you imagine so I asked you what is the description of this type of God which you imagine?

I imagine the same type of God you do... Only that I know it's not true because of the realities of this world... That God is only in our imagination... Well, u can't get everything u want, right??

Ranchhoddas:
Necessary 'evil' ??

How can something be necessary for God?? Can God make that evil no longer necessary?? It's seems u people don't really understand the point am making here

4everGod:


You always think everything must be an argument and someone must disprove something. I speak from a position of knowledge while you are the seeker. I will tell you what I know so its up to you to sit down and marinate on it or to keep looking for whom would keep up an imaginary argument with you.

Of course it's not an argument... I made a valid point and u have not been able to counter it... Not because u don't want to coz u've tried many times but because u can't... This argument has been made by many philosophers without any satisfactory response from the theologists, if u studied philosophy in university u would've encountered this argument...
And u don't speak from a position of knowledge, u only assume there is God, in fact there is more evidence of evolution than creation... But that's not even the point, all theists have tried and failed to address this dilemma, so it's nothing to be ashamed of really.

Ranchhoddas:
He also could have created a world with the need for earthquakes. Is that right?

If he is good... Y create need for earthquakes??

Ranchhoddas:
Limitations are against your idea of omnipotence, not the Bible's. You are arguing against a God you have created.

No! It's exactly the God of the bible...
Bible says God can do all things, so that means God could have created the earth without the needs for earthquakes?? Is that right??

Ranchhoddas:
This is where I think you get it wrong. God's omnipotence does not apply to illogic. He can not make a rock so heavy He would not be able to lift, He can not make a square circle etc.

Really?? That is in itself a limitation and limitations are against the idea of omnipotence... And am not even talking about illogicality...
When God created the earth, while allow earthquakes if he could have excluded them completely.. At the time of creation ooh

What??

Ranchhoddas:
I'm perplexed. What exactly do you mean by almighty?

Almighty means someone who can do ALL THINGS, ANY THING.

NinjaX:


Weird as it may seem, that law goes further to defeat the existence of God and the cycle of life - as the bible states that God has no beginning nor end.

Boom! Again we are hurled back at the starting point. More confusion.

Chai... This is totally new to me... Buh I guess that's the appeal of religion, no questions asked, simply believe... Therefore, no confusion...

Ranchhoddas:
Sounds easy on the eye but have you wondered that it may be more complicated than we know? What if the child's death is a necessary 'evil', a result of events or processes the details of which our finite minds are not fully aware of. Would you still describe God as not good?

No, but then he won't be the almighty. He's doing his best but if God can't create a plan without drawbacks or flaws, then he is not all powerful... If he was all powerful, he would have the ability to create a system where "evil would not be necessary"... Could god have prevented the death of the child while his plan still works perfectly?? U can't choose one or the other, it has to be both

NinjaX:


Don't know. But I based my premise on newton's law of motion which states that "action and reaction are equal and opposite", or "to every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"; thus somehow, there should be a determining cause behind creation, and not just a random cause attributed to chance, a definite one.

Wow, that makes sense in a weird way

4everGod:


This still takes us back to Omniscience! The earth is more complex than you can imagine and so are its inhabitants ...flora, fauna both seen and unseen, humanity, etc. There has to be a meeting place for everything to work together seamlessly.

Your idea of goodness is very shallow indeed because you have no basis for comparison besides assumptions since you hae never experience omniscience. Or have you?

U have still not countered my argument... Omniscience doesn't remove anything from the argument... Make this easy for both of us... Use the earthquake analogy to disprove my argument

4everGod:


So how would you describe God in your own experience?

Describe God?? I don't believe in God, if tomorrow there's proof of the type of God that we imagine, then I would be the most ardent believer

Ranchhoddas:
If a good and all powerful God decides to withold his goodness and power for some reason, would it make Him any less powerful and good?

Yes.. It would make him not good... If I have the power to save a child from drowning, and I do not... I am not good

4everGod:


The statement was emphatic

Genesis 7: 11

When Noah was 600 years old, on the seventeenth day of the second month, all the underground waters erupted from the earth, and the rain fell in mighty torrents from the sky.

It's amazing that u didn't look for the Hebrew and Greek translations of the word under ground but if it were a passage of the bible not scientifically accurate, u would bring in different translations to show that the English translation is not correct...
Anyways, Gen 8:2
2 The outlets of the water beneath the earth and the floodgates of the sky were closed. The rain stopped, 3 and the water gradually went down for 150 days
So the passage through which the water burst through was closed before the water started going down... So where did the water go... See, just when you thought your bible had scientific backing, it shoots itself in the foot once again

Ranchhoddas:
What in this context do you mean by the Christian notion of God?

The notion that God is all powerful and is good...

4everGod:
Nobody is answering a major question i asked. Scientists have discovered a massive ocean of water inside the earth and in Genesis account of the Flood it records that the waters inside the earth came up to the surface.

How did the men of old who were inspired to pen the scriptures know about this water inside the earth since they had no scientific knowledge?

Answers pls anyone?

Actually, if I wanted to argue like you, this would be the answer... When bible says inside the earth, it didn't mean water at the center of the earth beneath the soil, it actually meant water in the oceans. The average depth of the oceans is almost 4km, compared to the land we stand on that is insides of the earth

4everGod:


Did i say i was discouraging you from seeking answers? The question is, what answer would satisfy you?

I have given you all available answers and even dropped Job 38 for you to swallow and digest but you still wish to ask questions similar to when an ANT would find itself in a desert and imagine that such dryness and empty land mass serves no purpose so must be removed.

You are only limited in reasoning which is why you are asking these questions. But like i said, no man or woman on this earth can give you a 100% satisfactory answer because nobody is Omniscient to have an idea of WHY.

However if we look at nature and its workings you will realize that in all the alleged imperfection everything somehow is connected to the other and serve a purpose for each other and their individual imperfections always come together at a point to produce perfection. Its like an engine with many working parts which carry out different functions but somehow all those different functions end up doing just one thing...and that is to make the vehicle move forward or backward but these parts get worn out or damaged eventually but that does not in any way disrupt the purpose and perfection they produce when working together.

Earthquakes serve their purpose as well as everything else and everyday we are discovering what these are just like this article shows and i quote

U have still not disproved my argument...
U claim earthquakes are necessary... I totally agree, couldn't God have created an earth where earthquakes will not be necessary. I mean, why make earthquakes necessary if I have the power to create an earth where earthquakes are unnecessary..
Is it that God cannot make the earth without making earthquakes necessary?? If this is the case, then it is not true that God can do anything.
If God has the power to make earthquakes unnecessary but he still chooses to make earthquakes necessary, then he's not a good god..
This simple argument shows why the Christian notion of God cannot be correct and it doesn't matter how many verses I quote, the fact won't change

promisechuks:


then use your so called logic to disprove them as "not a delusion".

after that I would do the needful.

I already explained many times on this thread... But so u won't have an excuse to dodge, I will do it again...
There are two characteristics of God, one is being the Almighty I.e. omnipotence meaning he can do ANYTHING, no. Second is he is benevolent I.e. he is good.
Let's use earthquakes as a case study... Earthquakes are not caused by any act of man, they are natural disasters... So answer these questions:
Can God prevent earthquakes?? The answer should be: of course! He's the almighty.
So why doesn't he prevent earthquakes?? A good god would want to prevent anything that causes loss of millions of lives, right?
If your answer is that God cannot prevent earthquakes, then that means it's not correct to say that God can do all things.... Gerrit??

NinjaX:


Not the biblical one anyway.

So which one coz none of 'em have been proven

4everGod:


Let me put this simply so you would get it.

Are you Omnipotent? NO

Are you Omniscient? NO

Until you experience for a minute what God is experiencing and yet being able to keep everything in balance both within the planet and outside it then you can judge him.

Your case is like the case of Job who kept asking God similar questions as yours so let me show you what God told Job in Job 38

[b] 1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,

2“Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

3“Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

4“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,

5Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?

6“On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,

7When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8“Or who enclosed the sea with doors
When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;

9When I made a cloud its garment
And thick darkness its swaddling band,

10And I placed boundaries on it
And set a bolt and doors,

11And I said, ‘Thus far you shall come, but no farther;
And here shall your proud waves stop’?


12“Have you ever in your life commanded the morning,
And caused the dawn to know its place,

13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?

14“It is changed like clay under the seal;
And they stand forth like a garment.

15“From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the uplifted arm is broken.

16“Have you entered into the springs of the sea
Or walked in the recesses of the deep?

17“Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?

18“Have you understood the expanse of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.

19“Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,

20That you may take it to its territory
And that you may discern the paths to its home?

21“You know, for you were born then,
And the number of your days is great!

22“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,

23Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of war and battle?

24“Where is the way that the light is divided,
Or the east wind scattered on the earth?

25“Who has cleft a channel for the flood,
Or a way for the thunderbolt,

26To bring rain on a land without people,
On a desert without a man in it,

27 To satisfy the waste and desolate land
And to make the seeds of grass to sprout?

28“Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?

29“From whose womb has come the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who has given it birth?

30“Water becomes hard like stone,
And the surface of the deep is imprisoned.

31“Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades,
Or loose the cords of Orion?

32“Can you lead forth a constellation in its season,
And guide the Bear with her satellites?

33“Do you know the ordinances of the heavens,
Or fix their rule over the earth?

34“Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
So that an abundance of water will cover you?

35“Can you send forth lightnings that they may go
And say to you, ‘Here we are’?

36“Who has put wisdom in the innermost being
Or given understanding to the mind?

37“Who can count the clouds by wisdom,
Or tip the water jars of the heavens,

38When the dust hardens into a mass
And the clods stick together?

39“Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,

40When they crouch in their dens
And lie in wait in their lair?

41“Who prepares for the raven its nourishment
When its young cry to God
And wander about without food?
[/b]

Am not omnipotent but I know the meaning of the word... It's logic... If a father claims to have infinite money and he also claims to be a good father... How do u reconcile both characteristics if he makes his own son die of hunger without any wrongdoing on the part of the son...
This dilemma about God is what no theist has been able to explain ever... This was the first question that made me wonder about the person of God... U won't admit it but u also don't have an explanation for this contradictory properties of God, that's why you are discouraging me from asking the question

NinjaX:


I'd rather go with the existence of heaven and earth (as absurd as it sounds) than accept that the universe simply exploded from empty air.

How can they explain the concept of space and time and try to rationalise it with the series of actions that gave rise to all there is.

Why did the big bang happen at that specific time? What conditions necessitated it? Is it like a tree that bears fruits at its season?

Can it be related to the concept of an egg that hatches after undergoing its due process?

This hypocrisy, u expect conclusive evidence of the big bang but believe the creation story without a shred of evidence

KingEbukasBlog:


I don't think you think for yourself . You read too much garbage online . There are atheists in the past who have made ludicrous definitions and upheld them as truth .

If this happens , then God is not that
If that happens then God is this

What hogwash , who are you to determine what is good and what is evil ?

I didn't read anything online... It's simple logic and if u think deeply about it, u would understand it... I expect you to contest the logic and reasoning in the argument not just make general statements about atheism.. Can u do that for me plsss... No red herring

KingEbukasBlog:


I expected you to read through and understand how it disproves your assertions .

I read through thrice, I don't see any factual or logical disagreement with my post... Can you explain

promisechuks:


#delusion 1: intelligent design equals perfection.
who taught you this delusion. No insult intended please.

#delusion 2: all powerful, benevolent God equals perfection of earth creation.

please drop them, they don't work that way.

Really?? Why not...
Why would God have the power to create perfection but prefer imperfection... And we're not talking technicalities here... We're talking of earthquakes leading to loss of lives and properties millions of them!! That's not delusion that's logic... Even supposedly inferior beings seek for perfection in what they create...

KingEbukasBlog:


Revelations 21 : 3 - 6

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

I don't see how this addresses the issues raised in my comment... Plsss can u explain??

[quote author=4everGod post=51691923][/quote]
Lemme spell it out for you... If I had a purpose to fulfill and I had all needed resources at my disposal, if there are alternative methods or processes to fulfill that purpose and one of those methods will cause misfortune to someone, I will choose the other method that does not require hurt to anyone, that's if am a good person... However, if the only way of achieving that purpose is by hurting someone, then am not omnipotent, because I can't achieve that purpose the way I like it I.e without hurting anyone...
So it's like this:
Could God have created this world without imperfections?? If your answer is yes, then he's not a good God
If your answer he is no then he's neither Almighty nor omnipotent...

4everGod:


This article is not about perfection as even an intelligent designer can deliberately create imperfection (as you call it) for a PERFECT purpose.

If water came from the bottom of the earth in the first place of course it must return to where it came from or is it meant to float up somewhere when it originally came from the deep?

Yh... A perfect purpose... Plsss what perfect purpose could be served by the death of millions of people- including children in earthquakes?? And assuming without conceding that there is a perfect purpose, why can't almighty actualise that purpose without anyone suffering?? Is he so limited by hindrances that some people need to suffer for his purpose to be served.. That does not show omnipotence... If he's God, both the purpose and the process in achieving that purpose should be perfect
And about the earth soaking water, the earth does not generally absorb the water on it and definitely not in large quantities and see this part of your post:
Even with this new phase of brucite, scientists are still unable to directly measure the amount of the substance in the mantle or how much water the mineral holds.
So how come u are already drawing conclusions about the flood before the scientists have confirmed the quantity of water

Well... Am not going to argue against the idea that the earth is intelligently designed because I feel it is but that's no proof of a God, definitely not the God presented by the religions as almighty... The earth is amazing but it's not perfect, there are natural disasters that claim millions of lives. If God was all powerful and benevolent, then the earth will be perfect... The earth ain't perfect, ergo God couldn't have made the earth
And about where the water came from during Noah's time... Well if it came from the bottom of the earth, where did it go to after the flood

hopefulLandlord:


and you my good sir haven't seen KingEbuka aka star trek evangelist

Lolzzz... Seems they are having a conference concocting responses because if they had an explanation they would be all over the thread to 'prevent weak Christians from being misdirected'... Christians being condescending to other Christians

EyeHateGod:

4evergod I'll be like Jesus was Actually talking about his Resurrection...

Hahaha... Christians are generally creative when it comes to the bible but that particular guy is the lord and master of ridiculous explanations